African-Americans in the Ballroom World

[DanceMentor]

I started thinking about it...maybe I'm wrong...but has an African American ever won a major ballroom event in the United States?
What about at World-class events?

(BTW, what is the "politcally correct" way to refer to someone who is "black", but not from America? For example...a black person born in the UK. I don't mean to offend anyone here. :oops: )

I mean...I don't think an African American has ever won at Blackpool or at a World Championship event in the entire history of Ballroom!?

Are we behind the times here?

Also, who are some examples of highly successful African American ballroom dancers?

I know there are plenty on "non-ballroom" dancers such as Gregory Hines, Frankie Manning, the Nicholaus Brothers, and Alin Ailey. Who are some of the others?

Is the problem that African Americans are just not as interested in Ballroom? Or might there other reasons that aren't so ethical?

[Larinda McRaven]

Rufus Dustin. He was a United States Champion in three areas, American style, International Latin and Theatrical Arts. Also a World Exhibition Champion and represented the US in five world championships.

[DanceMentor]

Ah! Yes, Rufis Dustin...good one!
Anyone else?

[Sagitta]

(BTW, what is the "politcally correct" way to refer to someone who is "black", but not from America? For example...a black person born in the UK. I don't mean to offend anyone here. :oops: )


It get's so difficult trying to be politically correct sometimes that people hesitate to communicate. I don't think that using descriptive words in the right context should ever be viewed as causing offense.

How about African of UK origin in order to be politically correct?

[salsarhythms]

I tell you, I just don't understand the PC crap going around!

I mean, when I first got out to California, everything was so
alien to me because back in NY you speak what's on your
mind and that's it...

Over here, everyone is so worried about what to say that
having a conversations is like beating around the bush with
everything...

Am I the only one that feels this way?

[salsachinita]

.......because back in NY you speak what's on your
mind and that's it...

Funny you should mention it, Fernando.

I ALWAYS speak what's on my mind (ok, not really seen as a good trait in Asia but does that stop me :wink: ?) & someone (an Aussie) asked me a few weeks ago if I was from NY :shock: :lol: !

So maybe you have a point there.......

*note to self: spend more time in NY! Spend more time in NY!*

[salsachinita]

:oops: sorry guys, off topic! :oops:

Please carry on......

[pygmalion]

In the US, people of African origin are African-American. Pretty much everywhere else in the world, they're Black, I believe. And of course, in the diversity training community, they are "people of color," whatever that means. I attended, and even taught, the diversity training, and I don't much care about the labels. *shrug*

It IS kind of heartening to know that Rufus Dustin is a black man. I wonder why my coach never told me that? Hmm.

One other thing that bears on this, at least in the US, is African-American culture. You should have seen my black friends' reactions when I told them it was ballroom dance I was doing. Very few could understand why. I think there's a socio-economic divide here. Upper or upper middle class people find balroom dance acceptable. Others may not. *shrug* I just do what I like. :? :)

[lindy jihad]

(BTW, what is the "politcally correct" way to refer to someone who is "black", but not from America? For example...a black person born in the UK. I don't mean to offend anyone here. :oops: )
i dont think it really matters. americans are the only ones who get so offended by the un-PC.

[jon]

One other thing that bears on this, at least in the US, is African-American culture. You should have seen my black friends' reactions when I told them it was ballroom dance I was doing. Very few could understand why. I think there's a socio-economic divide here. Upper or upper middle class people find balroom dance acceptable. Others may not.

Anecdotal data point: 10 years ago I dated a fellow dancer who happened to attend a Catholic "mission" church in Durham, NC whose parishioners were mostly black. I would guess mostly lower middle class as well, because Durham's economy was not very healthy at the time.

At the Christmas party put on by the church one year, there was quite a lot of dancing going on, mostly your standard club-style solo dancing. At one point the jazz vocalist said they would do some singing music instead of dancing music, and the floor cleared out. It was however a perfectly good blues number, so my partner andI went over to a corner of the floor and started dancing WCS.

After about 30 seconds the singer stopped the band and told the audience they should remember that stuff from when they were kids, and were they going to let (perhaps there was an undertone of "those white kids" :-)) us upstage them? At which point about 10 couples joined us on the floor doing quite credible ECS. Yet, we never saw any of these folks at the swing dance society events. When I asked one of the dancers later on, she said they mostly had their own dance scene (where, I never figured out, unfortunately).

[youngsta]

i dont think it really matters. americans are the only ones who get so offended by the un-PC.
never, never generalize. I'm a Black American. Never been to Africa. I hate all the PC labels too.

[Larinda McRaven]

Another person comes to mind. Maria Torres made a wonderful impact on the ballroom world, competing international latin, american rhythm, and hustle. She is primarily a salsa dancer now.

I seem to think that Maria is not black, as in Africa, but maybe Puerto Rican. And Dustin is maybe Portuguese... Either way their skin is very dark and probably faced a bit of an uphill battle to become recognized for their amazing talents.

[pygmalion]

That's a good point, Larinda. I've never been at a high enough level to experience (and probably never will LOL) but it's not surprising that high level Black ballroom dancers would have difficulties being accepted.

While I was lying awake early this morning, it also occurred to me that there is quite a bit of acceptance of balroom dance in the African-American community. But it's at the socially elite level. The wealthy still have their daughters and sons taught the social graces, including ballroom dance. However, it's not generally accepted by the rest of the population, maybe because of the appearance of elitism. Mostly the wealthy and the wannabes do it. (These are generalizations, of course! :lol: )

That said, in my two and half years of ballroom dancing, hundreds of people I've met dancing and thousands I've seen, I would guess I've seen about fifty Black ballroom dancers. And many of them came into the studio to learn swing or salsa. As d nice will be glad to tell you, ballroom ECS is a derivative of dances invented by African-Americans. (Hope I'm not misrepresenting here, dnice. Correct me if I'm wrong). So there's nothing surprising about seeing Black people swing dance. And salsa is widely popular with people of all backgrounds, at least these days it is.

But the African-Americans I've seen doing strictly ballroom were for the most, learning wedding dances, or members of high school/college dances teams. Very few weirdos like me.

[Sagitta]

As d nice will be glad to tell you, ballroom ECS is a derivative of dances invented by African-Americans. (Hope I'm not misrepresenting here, dnice. Correct me if I'm wrong).

I believe that is correct. Swing is a marriage of Afro/American and European/folk musical traditions. :)

[Porfirio Landeros]

Once, someone asked me why ballroom dancing had virtually no participation by Mexico. Yes, there are Mexican-Americans that participate in ballroom dancing, but as far as the country Mexico, they (as far as I know) have never sent representatives in danceport to any championships. The answer seems to be that culturally, Mexicans already have their own dances. These dances are generally passed on through friends and family, and not usually through formal/classical training. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the same is true for African-Americans/Black Americans, because within their own culture, they have musical and dance preferences that may not be perceived as compatible with dancesport (from either those within or outside their peer groups).

Obviously, the ability is there, and I don't beleive that anyone would experience significant prejuduce if the technique is there. At least one Black American example of a champion has been named here, and I consistently see examples of Latin-American (hispanic) dancers participating in DanceSport (me included).

[jon]

Doubtless the ballroom world will continue to adapt, codify, and boring-fy contemporary dances from black and Latin cultures just as it's done for decades if not centuries. International Style Hip-Hop, anyone?

[Sagitta]

Doubtless the ballroom world will continue to adapt, codify, and boring-fy contemporary dances from black and Latin cultures just as it's done for decades if not centuries. International Style Hip-Hop, anyone?

This, then should help increase the participation of more black and latin people. And is that such a bad thing?

[pygmalion]

I don't know about that, Sagitta. Maybe it increases participation. Maybe it just creates parallel universes -- the ballroom universe and the real world universe.
I just recently found a samba.org website, which is an international samba organization that obviously has nothing to do with ballroom. And from what I'm reading, it's a lot more .. um ... visceral, ... um passionate ... you know. Ballroom samba also appears to be a very
watered down version of the real thing. Are there any carnavale afficionadoes in the DF house who can comment?

[HothouseSalsero]

I've never seen ballroom samba, though I would like to. There was a jazz samba class I used to take over and over again (for about a year and a half) until I started getting into salsa pretty seriously. It was close to the African dancing I had done previously, though slightly less challenging (but still plenty challenging for me). We did a warm up, then, while live percussionists played, we went from one end of a large room to the other, doing whatever footwork the teacher happened to throw at us (it would vary slightly from week to week); then we would link a series of movements, using some of that footwork, and we would basically work on the same choreography week after week (except he did occasionally rearrange things at will). Class ended with a brief session of samba freestyling.

I wanted to start taking those group classes again, but unfortunately they are no longer being offered.

[Swing Kitten]

(BTW, what is the "politcally correct" way to refer to someone who is "black", but not from America? For example...a black person born in the UK.

British ;)

[pygmalion]

You make a good point, Swing Kitten. Especially in the US, but also in some other parts of the world, Black people DO have internal debates over what to call themselves. Some prefer to be identified with the dominant culture (i.e. American or British, or whatever). But the generally accepted term other than in the US is Black. And in the the US, the current politically correct term is African-American. As youngsta noted earlier, there are always exceptions. But these are the generally accepted terms within the Black communities around the world. That said, why get hung up on labels? The real issues are more socioeconomic, IMHO.

I also think Porfirio makes a good point. Black people DO have their own dances. I was raised in a household of seriously dancing people -- older brother and sisters, friends and boyfriends and later brothers-in-law. They did lots of dances, but no one ever considered teaching me a thing about waltz or foxtrot. The bop, yes. Foxtrot? No. One of my former teachers told me that HIS first dancing memory was of standing on his mother's feet, learning to do a box step when he could barely walk. There ARE valid cultural differences here, as well.

[KevinL]

That said, why get hung up on labels?

As the world has become more global, the concept of a "race" is becoming less distinct. Especially in countries where a fair amount of immigration occurs, various races mix together to make "people", not "black people" or "white people" or "yellow people". Are there any genetically distinct human populations? No. Different, yes, distinct, no.

What really differentiates people is the culture where they were raised. Are southerners different from northerners? Sure. But it is the culture that makes them different (and the same), not the amount of melanin their skin produces.

The real issues are more socioeconomic, IMHO.

See? She says it differently, but it's the same point.

I recall reading a high school /college thesis on the net 2-3 years ago that examined the socioeconomic differences in the dance experiences of blacks and whites in the US. I remember thinking that it was well written, but didn't save a copy, so I can't repost it here. Do any of you know about it?

The details I remember (I could be recalling wrong) were that blacks tend to self-teach and therefore are more involved with "organic" dances like Lindy Hop, Salsa and Hip Hop while whites are more likely to take classes with formal teachers, and so tend toward more structured dances.

Anyone else recall reading something like this?

Kevin

[d nice]

I prefer the term Black to African-American. I've never been to Africa, and as long as a significant number of people in this country prefer those of my race to be nothing more than second class citizens I don't really fit as an American in their minds... ignoring the fact that I'm a veteran.

Blacks have their own dances, or forms of ballroom dances that follow a different aesthetic, uses different values to judge skill and merit. It is often incompatible with the very Western European standards used by ballroom associations.

Blacks often have there own venues they attend and dance and socialize at. You might be surprised to find a healthy and growing dance scene amongst the black community in your own city.

[Porfirio Landeros]

You know, now that you mention, I believe all my Black friends have said the same things spoken here... they haven't been to Africa... we're Americans!

Also, as I touched on earlier, and D'Nice affirmed when it relates to his own cultural experiences, Mexicans have their own Waltz, their own 'Rumba' and other dances... why should the mentioned cultural groups take lessons to unteach what their family and peers taught them?

I just did it for the chicks....

[pygmalion]

Warning: Totally off topic!

I have been to Africa several times and never felt more American than I did in Africa. Black people should try going, and see if you agree. And since I've been actively involved in the diversity scene for the past fifteen years, I've gotten pretty blase about the whole label thing. Give it a year or two, and the label will change, but I'll still be Black. 8)

That said, the Black dance scene in my town IS thriving and has nothing to do with ballroom, for the most part. Luckily for me now, I can now fit in and feel comfortable in both.

[Sagitta]

Also, as I touched on earlier, and D'Nice affirmed when it relates to his own cultural experiences, Mexicans have their own Waltz, their own 'Rumba' and other dances... why should the mentioned cultural groups take lessons to unteach what their family and peers taught them?

I don't know whether it is a matter of unlearning a dance. There are many variations, some of which may be suited to dancing in particular situations. I personally find it interesting to learn different variations of a dance and the resulting different musical worlds that I find myself in when I use them.


I just did it for the chicks....

:roll: Tsk, tsk, tsk!!!

[Sagitta]

the Black dance scene in my town IS thriving and has nothing to do with ballroom, for the most part. Luckily for me now, I can now fit in and feel comfortable in both.

What sort of dances are done then?

[d nice]

I don't know whether it is a matter of unlearning a dance. There are many variations, some of which may be suited to dancing in particular situations. I personally find it interesting to learn different variations of a dance and the resulting different musical worlds that I find myself in when I use them.

Formal Ballroom is pretty standardized... I've had ballroom dancers try and tell me I wasn't doing triple steps right in East Coast Swing, and have had Ballroom taught "lindy hoppers" try and tell me my posture, frame, carriage and styling was wrong.

I'm pretty sure the instructors they went to would try and "clean up" there basics, rather than expanding upon or refining what they have.

[pygmalion]

the Black dance scene in my town IS thriving and has nothing to do with ballroom, for the most part. Luckily for me now, I can now fit in and feel comfortable in both.

What sort of dances are done then?

You name it, Sagitta. Depends on the age and the venue. People from my parents generation do a lot of jitterbug. People from my siblings generation do a lot of swing-derived dances. People from my generation doa lot of freestyle, discoesque dances. Generation X-ers do a lot of bouncing like you see on hip hop videos. Whatever's after generation X does a lot of that reggaeton dancing, like you see on videos (at least in Jamaican clubs!) And then there's always personalized freestyle, which is what I do best. And from time to time, there'll be an actual named dances that most everybody does.

It depends.

[apostle]

I started thinking about it...maybe I'm wrong...but has an African American ever won a major ballroom event in the United States?
What about at World-class events?

(BTW, what is the "politcally correct" way to refer to someone who is "black", but not from America? For example...a black person born in the UK. I don't mean to offend anyone here. :oops: )

I mean...I don't think an African American has ever won at Blackpool or at a World Championship event in the entire history of Ballroom!?

Are we behind the times here?

Also, who are some examples of highly successful African American ballroom dancers?

I know there are plenty on "non-ballroom" dancers such as Gregory Hines, Frankie Manning, the Nicholaus Brothers, and Alin Ailey. Who are some of the others?

Is the problem that African Americans are just not as interested in Ballroom? Or might there other reasons that aren't so ethical?

I am the first black founder of a collegiate ballroom dance club and competition team. It is called the TLU Ballroom Dance Society, based at Texas Lutheran University in Seguin (near San Antonio/Austin). The club recieved its charter as of February 21, 2006. TLU is a small school of 1,400 students that is 70% white, and has about 100 black students. With me competing and teaching as well, this breaks race/ethnic barriers, and along with the success of Jerry Rice, the first runner up on season 2 of TV's "Dancing with the Stars," may help boost interest in ballroom dancing among blacks.

I would also like to help start ballroom dance programs at historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs) such as Prairie View A&M, near Houston.

I have been doing many partner dance styles (ballroom, country, swing, salsa) for more than two years. My parents were either involved in ballet, tap, or modern dancing when they were young.

TLU Ballroom's first-ever classes start in September.

Mr. Sammie Thompson
President, TLU Ballroom Dance Society

[Joe]

Warning: Totally off topic!

I have been to Africa several times and never felt more American than I did in Africa. Black people should try going, and see if you agree. And since I've been actively involved in the diversity scene for the past fifteen years, I've gotten pretty blase about the whole label thing. Give it a year or two, and the label will change, but I'll still be Black. 8)
I can definitely back this up (even though I'm not Black), as I've lived in Africa.

Oh, and wasn't Stanley McCalla a US amateur champion at some point?

[tangotime]

I am so pleased that this question was raised . it brings several contexual things to lite. One -- all music is of a primal ( black ) origin .Pretty much all the " Latin " we dance - no matter what the style, is born of that origin . We dont need to go into a musical dissertation to understand that . As far as individuals who have been prominent in the comp. world NOT of the " White " culture. ( these terms, all need to go ) firstly -- Ronnie Montez ( mexican parents ) 7 times u.s. latin champ ,, Bobbie Medeiros , Portugese family , also u.s. latin champ. There is a rainbow of all colors to see and enjoy. the latinos will always bring more to authenticity ,than most ,to the authentic rythms ; which is why I immersed myself into the latino culture many yrs ago, and what pleasure it has brought cannot be measured . I guess I have always admired people for what and how they dance, rather than look at their origin .

[tanya_the_dancer]

I am so pleased that this question was raised . it brings several contexual things to lite. One -- all music is of a primal ( black ) origin .Pretty much all the " Latin " we dance - no matter what the style, is born of that origin . We dont need to go into a musical dissertation to understand that . As far as individuals who have been prominent in the comp. world NOT of the " White " culture. ( these terms, all need to go ) firstly -- Ronnie Montez ( mexican parents ) 7 times u.s. latin champ ,, Bobbie Medeiros , Portugese family , also u.s. latin champ. There is a rainbow of all colors to see and enjoy. the latinos will always bring more to authenticity ,than most ,to the authentic rythms ; which is why I immersed myself into the latino culture many yrs ago, and what pleasure it has brought cannot be measured . I guess I have always admired people for what and how they dance, rather than look at their origin .
I think the statement that all music is of black origin is an overstatement. I'd say that waltz and VW are not, tango is more Latin-American in origins, foxtrot music - now that one I am not sure about. Just my thoughts.

[saludas]

I think the statement that all music is of black origin is an overstatement. I'd say that waltz and VW are not, tango is more Latin-American in origins, foxtrot music - now that one I am not sure about. Just my thoughts.

Agreed. European music evolved quite distinctly from African polyrhythms.

[tangotime]

We are all awre of the progression and diversion of melody and rythm. The point was - That EVERY thing started with the basic beating of a drum . capiche ?

[musicchica86]

Not going back to read this whole thread, but has anybody mentioned Emmanuel Pierre-Antoine?

[liangjz]

(BTW, what is the "politcally correct" way to refer to someone who is "black", but not from America? For example...a black person born in the UK. I don't mean to offend anyone here. :oops: )
Or might there other reasons that aren't so ethical?


Here's my take(which I think is an echo of what others have said). There's a huge difference between being politcally correct and being correct. I think the latter is more important, even if it costs you.

That said, I'm going to take it one step further and claim that African-American is often a racist term.

Lack of racism would mean that the law and the way people are viewed is based on things like their country of citizenship and (as one other poster mentioned) what country they fought for.

I know people who hold dual citizenships with the US and an African country. They are African-American.

The idea that we should make a political and social distinction by applying the term "African" to a person whose language, culture, and rightful legal status is American(US) based purely on the color of someone's skin is, in my book, racism.


Is the problem that African Americans are just not as interested in Ballroom? Or might there other reasons that aren't so ethical?

That said, I think that many black people in the US view themselves in a different culture than people of other ethnicities. I don't think DF is the right place for my social theories, but the bottom line is that fewer black people want to do ballroom dancing.

[apostle]

Not going back to read this whole thread, but has anybody mentioned Emmanuel Pierre-Antoine?
Pierre-Antoine is a World Mambo Champ and a US Professional Rhythm Champ. He has peformed with Joanna Zacharewicz and the two had appearances on "Dancing with the Stars" and "America's Ballroom Challenge."

[fascination]

Pierre-Antoine is a World Mambo Champ and a US Professional Rhythm Champ. He has peformed with Joanna Zacharewicz and the two had appearances on "Dancing with the Stars" and "America's Ballroom Challenge."saw them at ohio and they were AWESOME

[apostle]

Here's my take(which I think is an echo of what others have said). There's a huge difference between being politcally correct and being correct. I think the latter is more important, even if it costs you.

That said, I'm going to take it one step further and claim that African-American is often a racist term.

Lack of racism would mean that the law and the way people are viewed is based on things like their country of citizenship and (as one other poster mentioned) what country they fought for.

I know people who hold dual citizenships with the US and an African country. They are African-American.

The idea that we should make a political and social distinction by applying the term "African" to a person whose language, culture, and rightful legal status is American(US) based purely on the color of someone's skin is, in my book, racism.



That said, I think that many black people in the US view themselves in a different culture than people of other ethnicities. I don't think DF is the right place for my social theories, but the bottom line is that fewer black people want to do ballroom dancing.


I think it has to do with segregation and other cultural factors. First of all Europeans invented partner dancing in general and broght to the US and when ballroom dancing boomed in the US by the 1950s blacks were not welcome in dance studios due to to "Jim Crow" laws. Many blacks felt like they are not welcome in the ballroom community. They seem to feel intimidated when they try ballroom, But I am an exception.

I go to this one ballroom dance studio in Houston, where a lot of times I am the only black person, they seemed to be friendly and down-to-earth, and not as snobby as you think. Maybe it is the city's reputation.

Lindy Hop, the earliest form of swing dance, was pioneered by Frankie Manning and he popularized the dance among dance among blacks. Today, in the regional swing dance societies, like the one in Houston, it seems to attract mainly white and Asian dancers and little or no blacks on the floor.

Salsa seems to catch on among blacks here.

[apostle]

I can definitely back this up (even though I'm not Black), as I've lived in Africa.

Oh, and wasn't Stanley McCalla a US amateur champion at some point?

McCalla, with his wife Jennifer Ford, became U.S. Amateur Latin, Standard, and 10-Dance Champions, and have represented the United States at four World Championships. The couple became members of the American Ballroom Theatre Company and performed worldwide.

[fenixx]

Corky Ballas is Mexican

[chocolatchica]

No way! Corky Ballas is Mexican??? What shocker! Maybe there is hope for me yet in the ballroom dance world (I am Black and Mexican but kinda light skinned). Now all I need is partner!!! Dance world here I come!

[delamusica]

The details I remember (I could be recalling wrong) were that blacks tend to self-teach and therefore are more involved with "organic" dances like Lindy Hop, Salsa and Hip Hop while whites are more likely to take classes with formal teachers, and so tend toward more structured dances.

Anyone else recall reading something like this?

Kevin

One doesn't need to read it to know it's true. Obviously, since white people can't dance, "organic" dances are out of the question. We're all totally hopeless unless someone sits us down with a syllabus. :p

[quixotedlm]

The 'black' question is interesting, but more interesting is the 'racism' question. Is ballroom dancing (or more popular latin dancing,esp salsa) more prone to racism than elsewhere?

I can't generalize from personal experiences,obviously. But FWIW, I've lived in the US for almost six years now and the only instances of racist attitude I've been subjected to has been on the dance floor. It's never been overt, but it definitely shows up occasionally. Racism being a power game, it doesn't affect me much. I've usually been more powerful than the perpetrators, so I just ignored them and they had no impact on me.

[iluminar]

I have been teaching dance (as a hobby) in the US for over 20 years and I have been quite intrigued by this subject in the last 3-4 years. I am originally from Mexico City. I came to the US when I was 20 to study at a University. I had suffered tremendously in Mexico because I did not know how to dance and IT SEEMED as though everyone around me knew how to dance.

One day, by accident, I went into a social dance class at the US college I was attending. The professor was great, funny and very patient! I had to take the begining dance class about four times, but by then I was totally hooked. I got into the School's Ballroom Dance Team and then I transferred to another school with probably the largest Ballroom program in the US, if not the world. I got my medals, got into a very good team and I finally started, after many years, teaching dance to the other college students.

As I did, I found out that I really dreaded having hispanic students in my class for two important reasons. They came with the attitude that they were going to just get an easy grade because they "already knew how to dance".
The other problem is that I found out that hispanics had A LOT of problems with rhythm!! WHAT??? What kind of heresy am I saying here!!??? Well, what I am saying is true and I must explain the reasons for what I am saying. I am talking here mainly about Hispanics that were born in other countries (like me) and not those born in the US. In most latin american countries there is a very deficient or non-existent program for teaching music in the public schools. What little I learned about music in High School in Mexico was mainly music THEORY and history. I never put my hands on any kind of instrument and had no idea about rhythms, etc.

This was not because I did not know how to dance. What I have found out with time is that latins (hispanics) learn since they are little to just get out in the dance floor and start moving around without any compunction. That's something that most white US kid do not do. Like some others have mentioned here already, white kids feel they have to take classes to learn to dance. That idea is totally alien in the hispanic world. When you go to a Hispanic wedding, dance, etc, you will see the little kids dancing along with the grandparents. That will never hapen with white kids! Oh my goodness! NEVER! The young white kids would die of shame if they were seen dancing along with the "old folks".

So, hispanics DO learn to get out in the dance floor and shake, BUT they do not know any of the basic steps of the latin or "tropical" dances. When I go to some dances I see many of the hispanic kids dancing "modern" style steps mixed with latin movementes to the latin beat!! :D

Someone asked why Mexicans do not seem to participate in dance contests. Well, about five years ago I went to Mexico and since I had already been teaching Salsa for a number of years here in the US I decided to attend the best Salsa dance hall to see what I could learn from the dancers there. There was not a SINGLE couple there doing anything closely resembling Salsa as it is taught in the US (East to West) or PR. I did notice, like I said previously, that they were just shuffling their feet and generally doing the same dance-wise as if it was modern music. Anyway, the group playing was GREAT and I was dying to dance with someone. I started doing some steps by myself and about four Ladies came over to me to ask me to show them what I was doing. Then they had an intermission and they announced they had a special treat. They had a couple that was going to give a Salsa exhibition. The couple started dancing and I was floored!! They were AMAZING! I knew I had to take classes from them. When they finished I went over to ask them if they were teaching and they told me they did. They gave me some more info about their classes and then I finally asked them: Hey, where did you learn to dance so well?? Their answer?:

SAN FRANCISCO!!!!!:p :confused:

I MUST add that there are A LOT of hispanics now participating in the Ballroom dance scene. Ron Montez is just one of them (and he's even retired from competitions now!) but there are many others. I think the reason why hispanics will do well is because it is part of the culture to do COUPLES dancing. And this is the important and most telling part. Dancing with a partner and actually holding her is something that in Mexico and all Latin American countries is the norm; even if they are not doing the steps typically considered "school figures". (Except lately when they have started copying the modern US dances and they prefer to hug the floor rather than a girl!!!) :D

Concerning black dancers, I also started noticing their absence from the Ballroom dance scene, even though I had always considered them great dancers, just like most people think about hispanics. But as I started analizing things I became aware that most of the really well known black dancers are SINGLE dancers. I mean dancers that dance by themselves and not with a partner. I've admired the moves of MC Hammer, Michael Jackson and many others. Then back in the older days the most amazing tap dancers were usually the black ones. There were white dancers that got more exposure but I think that the black tap dancers were just the best. But then I realized that those dancers were usually dancing solo, due to the nature of the dance. But even when they dance with a partner it is usually a side by side action.

If you saw "So you think you can dance" you may have noticed that the really good black dancers that got to the finals did great when they were dancing solo or with a partner at the side, but when they had to actually get into dance position it was their downfall. And maybe that is because, like some people mentioned here, this is not part of their social scene. Maybe they consider Ballroom dancing "elitist".

And this reminds me that, at least in Mexico, dancing is more of a "populist" activity than something for the "elite". I went to Mexico to teach dance seminars and most of the atendees were middle class people. I did have one Lady that was from the most "elite" portion of the population, but she agreed with me that she was one of the few exceptions as far as dancing was concerned. I must specify that most everyone in Mexico likes to go to dancing BUT the real "adicts" come form the middle class.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this because I have been mulling it over for such a long time and it took me quite a while to digest it! When I tell the people in my Salsa class that most latins do NOT know how to dance Salsa thay are kind of incredulous, but the few latins that take the class do agree with my assesment.

Maybe some of the readers here will be able to shed some more light on this subject, which I find quite interesting!

[tangotime]

Corky will be pleased to hear you have changed his heritage from greek to mexican !!

[Some Day]

Anyway, I just wanted to share this because I have been mulling it over for such a long time and it took me quite a while to digest it! When I tell the people in my Salsa class that most latins do NOT know how to dance Salsa thay are kind of incredulous, but the few latins that take the class do agree with my assesment.


I would disagree with generalizing that "most latins do NOT know how to dance Salsa." Maybe that's the case on the West Coast, but, from my experience in social dancing on the East Coast and in Florida, where there is more of a Caribbean latin presence (Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans), I would say that many grow up dancing to these rhythms (salsa, merengue, bachata, etc.) and are able to dance them well.

[fascination]

okay, I am leaving for the morning BUT...I am aware that Iluminar (btw, welcome to DF, Iluminar) has made a post which may rub some the wrong way, just asking in advance that things stay friendly

[saludas]

Agreed! It's one thing to dance TO salsa music, and another thing to dance Salsa.

[tangotime]

have a flash for you-- I taught in fla for multi yrs, owned dance schools in several cities, taught in latin clubs--- Most latinos dont have a clue when it comes to salsa !!. Go into a true latin club ( the mature crowd ) and compare the numbers that dance merengue ( everyone ) to those who sit out salsa . 98 % of my salsa classes were latinos, cubans , p.r.s, colombians , peru , pick a country. And among those that dance fairly well, they have no idea. or very little in many cases, steps beyond a basic level . That is not what they are about . Its the younger generation that has expanded the content to absurd proportions ( in their eyes ), and have driven many of the "old school " away .They love the music for what it is, part and parcel of their culture .

[samina]

have a flash for you-- I taught in fla for multi yrs, owned dance schools in several cities, taught in latin clubs--- Most latinos dont have a clue when it comes to salsa !!

Yes, that's my (more limited) experience as well. Have many latin friends through work, most of who dance, many of whom have "great dancer" reputations among their crowd. But when we got together to party, not one knew how to lead anything in salsa. They are fabulous at reggaeton, tho, and certainly knew how to groove to the music.

And on a recent trip to Miami I went to a large, very well-attended latin club. Only one man on the crowded floor was leading anything remotely interesting. The rest were, again, just groovin to the beat & holding hands with their ladies.

Even at my favorite NJ latin club, the vast majority of latin guys there don't really seem to know much... when they get on the floor, they mostly just wanna groove. There's a very visible divide between those who have been studio-trained and those who just grew up with the music playing at family & community functions.

[Some Day]

[QUOTE]have a flash for you--[QUOTE]


Thank you for the flash, tangotime ;)

Looks like we've all been exposed to different things. That's the beauty of having different perspectives.

[dancesportgirl21]

One thing that people don't realize is that dancing is often popular is certain regions of Latin American countries. My mom grew up on a ranch outside of Bogota and in the city of Bogota in Colombia and while she took some folk dancing (salsa, flamenco, etc) for a bit when she was really young, she doesn't dance and says people in Bogota aren't that much into dancing. On the other hand, she said that the people who live on the coast, esp in Cali are great dancers and grow up dancing. People generalize too much.

[alemana]

word.

[SDsalsaguy]

word.
ditto!

[pygmalion]

have a flash for you-- I taught in fla for multi yrs, owned dance schools in several cities, taught in latin clubs--- Most latinos dont have a clue when it comes to salsa !!. Go into a true latin club ( the mature crowd ) and compare the numbers that dance merengue ( everyone ) to those who sit out salsa . 98 % of my salsa classes were latinos, cubans , p.r.s, colombians , peru , pick a country. And among those that dance fairly well, they have no idea. or very little in many cases, steps beyond a basic level . That is not what they are about . Its the younger generation that has expanded the content to absurd proportions ( in their eyes ), and have driven many of the "old school " away .They love the music for what it is, part and parcel of their culture .

Amen. I've gone to more than a few weddings of Latino people. The people that I've seen dancing well in that context tend to be more mature people. The younguns, to some extent, have no idea of what's going on ... or else they want to dance to reggaeton and therefore sit out the dances at "boring" traditional social functions.

My favorite dance scene in recent memory is watching my friends Maria and Silos (at least 55 - 60 years old apiece) dance an AMAZING merengue at a Cuban friend's wedding. No salsa. Meregue. (OMG! Their hip motion was astoundingly beautiful! And I have seen more than a few hips move on the dance floor.) They tore up the floor! I'm not kidding. They knew exactly how to shake it, be seen, enjoy the dance, and dance with the music. All without being the least bit nasty or suggestive. Would that their children and grandchildren were willing to learn something from them. :?

[fascination]

very kewl

[pygmalion]

Yup. Very kewl, IMO. :)

[steevydance]

They aren’t too many African American doing Ballroom dancing but black in general yes, there are a few mostly Haitians

[steevydance]

That's a good point, Larinda. I've never been at a high enough level to experience (and probably never will LOL) but it's not surprising that high level Black ballroom dancers would have difficulties being accepted.

While I was lying awake early this morning, it also occurred to me that there is quite a bit of acceptance of balroom dance in the African-American community. But it's at the socially elite level. The wealthy still have their daughters and sons taught the social graces, including ballroom dance. However, it's not generally accepted by the rest of the population, maybe because of the appearance of elitism. Mostly the wealthy and the wannabes do it. (These are generalizations, of course! :lol: )

That said, in my two and half years of ballroom dancing, hundreds of people I've met dancing and thousands I've seen, I would guess I've seen about fifty Black ballroom dancers. And many of them came into the studio to learn swing or salsa. As d nice will be glad to tell you, ballroom ECS is a derivative of dances invented by African-Americans. (Hope I'm not misrepresenting here, dnice. Correct me if I'm wrong). So there's nothing surprising about seeing Black people swing dance. And salsa is widely popular with people of all backgrounds, at least these days it is.

But the African-Americans I've seen doing strictly ballroom were for the most, learning wedding dances, or members of high school/college dances teams. Very few weirdos like me.


:)
· Your right they aren’t too many African American doing Ballroom dancing but black in general yes, there are a few mostly Haitians. Haiti is located in Caribbean, western one-third of the island of Hispaniola, between the Caribbean Sea and the North Atlantic Ocean, west of the Dominican Republic, in the timezone GMT -5. The country has boundaries of 360 - Dominican Republic 360 (km), and a coastline of 1,771 (km). Major urban areas: Port-au-Prince, Cap-Haitien, Gonaives, Jacmel, Port-de-Paix. My name is Steeve Jean Louis originally from Haiti I came to the USA 5 years ago become a US Citizen. I’m one of the best ballroom dancers in south Florida; I’m not the only one the most famous of us is Emmanuel Pierre-Antoine Arthur Murray Rhythm Champion 2007
· Winner of numerous Professional Rhythm Championships in 2006-2007, including...
o Ohio Star Ball DanceSport Championships
o Embassy Ball DanceSport Championships
o Holiday Classic DanceSport Championships
o Heritage Classic DanceSport Championships
· Featured on "Dancing With the Stars" in 2006
· Featured on PBS-TV "America's Ballroom Challenge"
· World Professional Mambo Champion 2005
Please guys do some more researches and also check out my video on YouTube just put my full name STEEVE JEAN LOUIS (Steeve with 2 EE).

[fascination]

welcome to df

[dlgodud]

Welcome to DF!

[SDsalsaguy]

Please guys do some more researches
Happy to have you on DF steevydance, but please do some basic research before asking us to do more. You are quoting a post from 2003, meaning it would have required time travel to have included that information about E P-A. ;)

[latingal]

welcome steevydance!

[jump'n'jive]

:)
My name is Steeve Jean Louis originally from Haiti I came to the USA 5 years ago become a US Citizen. I’m one of the best ballroom dancers in south Florida
thats quite a stretch isnt it? i am all for self confidence but lets be realistic esp since some of us here know you. :eyebrow:

[taylor1990]

Haha, new yorkers are deffinately known for speaking their mind, and I guess that's why people sometimes think they are mean, no we're just honest. Sometimes brutally haha. As far as being politically correct, African Americans are also black, so why not just ask if there are any black people? Why would someone get mad or offended for being called what they are? I don't know, that wouldn't make sense to me.

[reb]

:)
I’m one of the best ballroom dancers in south Florida

:)
Emmanuel Pierre-Antoine

Welcome to Dance Forums Steeve. We hope to hear of you someday.

We know Emmanuel and respect his capabilities and accomplishments.

Good luck in your endeavors - please let us know of any results in open competition you achieve.

[Lavenderhawk]

Hey Everyone,

I am a filmmaker who is considering doing a documentary on the subject of Black ballroom dancers that will also explores the african roots of some of the competition style dances. This forum has been very helpful. I am not a dancer so I will be doing a lot of research before embarking on this project.

If you know of any "must have" people that should be interviewed or featured for a project like this, please let me know.

And to add to the Black vs African American debate my opinion is that there is no real concrete term for us. So as long as you don't say colored or negro or anything else outdated you should be fine. I had a White friend who was chastised by another White person for saying Black instead of African American. She got really upset and asked me for my opinion, I thought the whole thing was very funny. To me Black refers to anyone of African decent no matter what country. African slaves were sent all throughout the new world and you will find black people in north, central, and south america as well as throughout the caribean. But this doesn't apply to eveyone either because I have heard Australian aborigines refer to themselves as Black. So it's all up to interpretation.

I have been to Africa and though Black Americans are 300 or so years removed we have held on to a lot more of the culture than you would think, but you really don't see it unless you go there or you study it. The problem is that we have always been taught to see anything African as negative and so we try to put as much distance as we can between us and Africans. There are major differences as well, we are descendants of slaves who have been in this country since before it was a country. When I was living in Europe African people would always ask me where I was from and I would say Chicago. They would say but where are your people from and I would say Arkansas and Tennessee. What they really want to know is what part of Africa are my people from and we can't answer that question. That definitely makes us different. But when you go there and see people who look like people in your family or from your neighborhood and have similar mannerisms and laugh the way you do, you will see that we are not that much different. :)

[robertje06]

In IIDSF International Latin, There is one couple, of whom the lady is black, and they dance very well :) eg, they are 11th in the world.

They danced semi final in blackpool, several finals and semifinals in grandslams and mostly finals in "normal" idsf events. Even winning some recent comps...

They come out for Germany, and their names are:
Timo Kulczak / Motshegetsi Mabuse

Very nice couple to see them dancing, really showing the essence of each different dance.

[suburbaknght]

Emmanuel Pierre-Antoine. World mambo champion and rhythm finalist at Ohio Star Ball.

[Sash]

There is a girl who did(maybe still does) who dances for germany. She was in one of the top amatuer couples in the championships can't remember her name.

[emkey]

There is a girl who did(maybe still does) who dances for germany. She was in one of the top amatuer couples in the championships can't remember her name.

thats mambuse

[Benji]

Here's my take on the subject. (Don't forget, small island....got small island experiences:p)
When I started Ballroom....I was basically the only black guy in my group. It felt really awkward cause I too used to think that Ballroomdancing was mainly for rich white people. The fact that my instructor is also white didn't make me feel any better. During the classes I noticed that the awkward feeling was because of none but myself. So after talking to a few other guys, it hit me.
They were just regular guys who liked dancing just like me...and got tricked into dancing the same way I got tricked into it.
I regularly trained with my partner at school....Some kids saw us dance, they liked it and wanted to join, including a few of my friends and my youngest brother. At this moment I can actually call myself the best male black ballroomdancer on my island (again, my tiny-unkown-to-the-rest-of-the-world-island:p)

ANYWAYZ, long story short.............
I think that because of the common misconception that Ballroomdance is for rich white people (not my words), black people tend to stay away in fear that they might be rejected or treated differently

[DancingMommy]

Benji - your island isn't that unknown, lol. One of my husband's co-workers and game buddies is Curacaoan.

[Benji]

Oh cool, you should let the co-worker read this then

Kumindamentu di Korsou ;)

[Iolane]

I am a lurker, first time poster who's been reading this thread and finally decided to jump in.

I am a Black American who ballroom dances and I've never experienced overt racism. What I do experience from time-to-time is people seeming surprised at my skilll level. I am by no means advanced, but I am not a beginner either. When I attend a dance party at a studio other than my own (or when we have visitors to our studio) I often get surprised compliments (more so than other non-Black students at my same level.)

I will also concur with the person who posted that I prefer Black American over African-American. I have been to Africa, I felt more American than ever while I was there, and I couldn't wait to get back home. With that said, I am not offended by the term African-American, it's just not my preference.

[SDsalsaguy]

Welcome to DF Iolane, and thanks for sharing your perspective and experiences with us! :cheers:

[latingal]

Welcome to DF Iolane!

[SwingingInTheHood]

ANYWAYZ, long story short.............
I think that because of the common misconception that Ballroomdance is for rich white people (not my words), black people tend to stay away in fear that they might be rejected or treated differently
I disagree. I taught Salsa for several years. We would get Black guys all the time. They would come to one or two sessions, couldn't pick up the basic steps, didn't like the music, and they wouldn't come back. Many of these same guys would then take "Urban Ballroom" or "Chicago Style Step", pick it up during the first session, and that's what you'd see them doing. In addition, these dances are danced to music they are more familiar with and in environments they are more comfortable in.

I'm sure what you say is true too a degree, but I argue that it is equally, or even more true that many Blacks don't take up traditional Ballroom dancing for more practical reasons: They don't care for the music, it's not something you can pick up in a session or two, and you can't dance it at most (Black) dance venues.

If that sounds racist, I'm sorry, but it's real. I taught Salsa in Inglewood / South Central LA for 3 years about the same time that Chicago Style Step and "Urban" Ballroom were starting to become popular in that predominately Black community. I talked to many a Black woman who referred to "Step" as "sexy" and "elegant". Not Argentine Tango or Rumba. So, where do you think the Black guys who you can convince to take up a dance at all are going to spend their effort?

Also, if the DJs aren't going to play Salsa/Hustle/Waltz/Foxtrot where you normally go to dance, why learn it? Unless, you are willing to step outside of your comfort zone.

And, I'm not just sitting on the sidelines hating. I spend a considerable amount of time trying to promote awareness of traditional Ballroom Dancing in the Black community where I live. It ain't easy.

-ron

[SwingingInTheHood]

Hey Everyone,

I am a filmmaker who is considering doing a documentary on the subject of Black ballroom dancers that will also explores the african roots of some of the competition style dances. This forum has been very helpful. I am not a dancer so I will be doing a lot of research before embarking on this project.

If you know of any "must have" people that should be interviewed or featured for a project like this, please let me know.
:)
Chester Whitmore. He has made it his business to study the History of Black Dance. I can't submit urls, so search for chesterwhitmore.
-ron

[SwingingInTheHood]

I am a lurker, first time poster who's been reading this thread and finally decided to jump in.

I am a Black American who ballroom dances and I've never experienced overt racism. What I do experience from time-to-time is people seeming surprised at my skilll level. I am by no means advanced, but I am not a beginner either. When I attend a dance party at a studio other than my own (or when we have visitors to our studio) I often get surprised compliments (more so than other non-Black students at my same level.)

I will also concur with the person who posted that I prefer Black American over African-American. I have been to Africa, I felt more American than ever while I was there, and I couldn't wait to get back home. With that said, I am not offended by the term African-American, it's just not my preference.

Ditto.

[latingal]

Welcome to DF SwinginInTheHood!

[Angel HI]

....I argue that it is equally, or even more true that many Blacks don't take up traditional Ballroom dancing for more practical reasons: They don't care for the music, it's not something you can pick up in a session or two, and you can't dance it at most (Black) dance venues. -ron
Interesting that this thread would be bumped. However, I agree. It's, or was, cultural.