Just got the oddest comment ...

[SalsaManiac]

So I finally got the sister of one of my salsa buddies on the dance floor and in the middle of a merengue, she tells me that I need to be forceful when dancing. Frankly, it took me a few seconds to pick my jaw off the floor when I heard that. She is somewhat of a beginner and I had to explain a few points to her:

1) Salsa to me is not about powering your way through moves. I consider salsa to be something like a conversation between the two of us where we both have contributions to make. If I am going to be forceful with the girl, that is like me shouting all the time and simply drowning out any personality/individuality that she has to bring to the dance.

2) Many beginner follows unfortunately tend to dance a lot with guys whose idea of dancing is ripping your arms out of their sockets. This becomes a vicious cycle because they now get the idea that being thrown around is the "right" way to dance and then attempt to backlead by adding extra inertia when it's not called for. Case in point: there was a lady I danced with a couple of weeks ago who felt that she needed to physically ground herself while I am leading her into a cross body lead. It was even worse when I tried to do a barrel roll with her and she would yank me off balance. One of the most advanced dancers here danced with her and when it was over, he came up to me and said that he now needed a neckbrace.

3) I have developed my lead such that I am a light lead but will be firm when I have to be in controlling the lady's motion. I have received so many comments on how enjoyable my lead is because the follows feel that they can express themselves more with me. I even had a friend tell me that I have thoroughly spoiled her with my lead because she is now really starting to realize that most guys do hurt her when they dance with her.

Anyway, I suppose I can understand why she would want to be led forcefully if she is a beginner and simply wants the guy to do everything for her. However, I do not want her pick up bad habits which seem to be so prevalent. Anyone else here have a similar experience?

--T

p.s: here is a funny link with some of the above stereotypes

http://www.tosalsa.com/goto.asp?http://www.tosalsa.com/forum/comic/comicSalsaSafari.html

[Dancelf]

She is somewhat of a beginner and I had to explain a few points to her

Really? Why was providing that explanation mandatory?

[SalsaManiac]

She refused to believe that one could dance with a light lead, which is why she was insistent on the guy throwing her around. If she had said that she personally prefers to be thrown around, then the point would be moot.

--T

[Twilight_Elena]

p.s: here is a funny link with some of the above stereotypes

http://www.tosalsa.com/goto.asp?http://www.tosalsa.com/forum/comic/comicSalsaSafari.html


Hilarious! Salsafari. :lol:
I think that it was cool of you to explain all those things to her. I hope you did so in a nice way (and didn't sound like a pompous prick or anything ;)).

T_E

[waltzgirl]

Funny/sad story about that. Married couple, she dances, he doesn't. She "sends" him to take lessons to learn to dance with her. He starts developing a nice, light but clear lead. Turns out she "learned on the floor" and wants a brutal lead. She comes to a few of his lessons. To her shock, the teacher starts correcting her! She stops coming to lessons. Soon, he disappears from the studio.

[Sagitta]

Lots of beginners want that "move me around the floor" sort of adnce. Unfortunate, but true. :-(

[Twilight_Elena]

Funny/sad story about that. Married couple, she dances, he doesn't. She "sends" him to take lessons to learn to dance with her. He starts developing a nice, light but clear lead. Turns out she "learned on the floor" and wants a brutal lead. She comes to a few of his lessons. To her shock, the teacher starts correcting her! She stops coming to lessons. Soon, he disappears from the studio.

Yikes. :?

T_E

[Tony_Salvi]

Yah I used to run into that a lot when I was a beginner. All the girls in my beginner classes wanted a more forceful lead. But it's really because they are "heavy" follows themselves. I personally hate dancing with followers who want me to physically move them everywhere. Instead of being more forceful trying giving her very very clear signals that even she cant miss.

For example, on a right outside turn try a bigger prep than usual..also you can use your right hand to gently push on her elbow on 5(assuming you dance on1). Overall make your visual and physical cues bigger and sooner.

Other than that there's not that can be done. It doesn't matter how good a lead you are, if she doesn't have good tension it's going to be a hard dance.

[pygmalion]

Yah I used to run into that a lot when I was a beginner. All the girls in my beginner classes wanted a more forceful lead. But it's really because they are "heavy" follows themselves. I personally hate dancing with followers who want me to physically move them everywhere. Instead of being more forceful trying giving her very very clear signals that even she cant miss.


Very good advice, IMO, Tony Salvi. :D

[Josh]

SalsaManiac,

Since the girl is a beginner, it's very possible that what you said is true, that she is simply heavy and needs/expects a crane to move her around the floor. This is likely the case.

But, just to play devil's advocate, and since she's not her to give her side of the story...

After I had been dancing salsa for about a year, my lead was, I felt, very good. And it wasn't bad... but... it wasn't as good as I thought, as I later learned, and this was true even though I got many compliments from followers. My lead was light, and at times during the dance, it dropped off to being too light and unclear. A good lead should be very consistent--the connection should not fluctuate during the song, though of course the amount of pressure should vary. So, are you sure that your lead is not only light but very clear? Light alone is not enough, and I've seen some guys try to be so light and "smooth" that they wind up giving ambiguous leads and confusing their followers. In fact, of all the guys I've been led by in group classes and private lessons (probably about three hundred over the last year), probably around 80% of them who have been dancing under 8 or 9 months have the problem of being too light and not clear/assertive enough in their leads (and I say this being a light follow, for a 180 lb. guy :wink: ). So, all I'm saying is, consider the possibility that your lead may not be clear. How long have you been dancing, and how many dances? The longer the amount of time, and the more dances you dance, the better your lead will be. Note that people who have been dancing several dances for many years still work on and improve their lead.

Another thing to consider is that a good lead will always do his best to accomodate the follower. If she was heavy and needed a stronger lead, you should not have tried to lead her with a light lead. She's not advanced enough for it. Be adaptable and work with the follower you are dancing with at the time and what she needs and where she's at, not what she should need and where she will be.

[naturallove]

SalsaManiac,

Since the girl is a beginner, it's very possible that what you said is true, that she is simply heavy and needs/expects a crane to move her around the floor. This is likely the case.

But, just to play devil's advocate, and since she's not her to give her side of the story...

After I had been dancing salsa for about a year, my lead was, I felt, very good. And it wasn't bad... but... it wasn't as good as I thought, as I later learned, and this was true even though I got many compliments from followers. My lead was light, and at times during the dance, it dropped off to being too light and unclear. A good lead should be very consistent--the connection should not fluctuate during the song, though of course the amount of pressure should vary. So, are you sure that your lead is not only light but very clear? Light alone is not enough, and I've seen some guys try to be so light and "smooth" that they wind up giving ambiguous leads and confusing their followers. In fact, of all the guys I've been led by in group classes and private lessons (probably about three hundred over the last year), probably around 80% of them who have been dancing under 8 or 9 months have the problem of being too light and not clear/assertive enough in their leads (and I say this being a light follow, for a 180 lb. guy :wink: ). So, all I'm saying is, consider the possibility that your lead may not be clear. How long have you been dancing, and how many dances? The longer the amount of time, and the more dances you dance, the better your lead will be. Note that people who have been dancing several dances for many years still work on and improve their lead.

Another thing to consider is that a good lead will always do his best to accomodate the follower. If she was heavy and needed a stronger lead, you should not have tried to lead her with a light lead. She's not advanced enough for it. Be adaptable and work with the follower you are dancing with at the time and what she needs and where she's at, not what she should need and where she will be.
Josh-
Interesting that you bring this up. There's a guy that I know (who shall remain nameless) who had precisely the same problem. One of my instructors places a huge emphasis on lack of arm tension (for followers) and a light lead (for leaders). This is a tough balance-I usually swing in the direction of too much tension (even now) but I'm a lot better than I used to be. But the guy that I'm talking about (after starting with my instructor) had this incredibly light, unclear lead at times because he was soooo focused on being 'light' and 'smooth'. I thought I was the only one who thought this, until my friends confirmed my opinion. He was so focused on being 'cool' that he seemed to forget what was the most important--that the follow understand what was going on.

[naturallove]

Funny/sad story about that. Married couple, she dances, he doesn't. She "sends" him to take lessons to learn to dance with her. He starts developing a nice, light but clear lead. Turns out she "learned on the floor" and wants a brutal lead. She comes to a few of his lessons. To her shock, the teacher starts correcting her! She stops coming to lessons. Soon, he disappears from the studio.
This is tragic!

[sweavo]

If the lady likes it hard, she gets it hard.

The only problem is that it can harden up your lead for when you dance with your lighter partners.

I've found variations in this. People who dance flashy, club style tend to be specific about the lightness and technique of the lead they like
, whereas many South Americans in Britain seem to prefer a bit more manhandling and less flash, I think of it as more "folky". Brits who dance "cuban" style tend to prefer a larger, firmer lead. I guess in the latter two cases there is less structure to the dance so it's more important to constrain your follower to the space you want to be occupying. Or maybe not, dunno.

[Kali Ma]

If the lady likes it hard, she gets it hard.

:raisebro:

The only problem is that it can harden up your lead for when you dance with your lighter partners.

Hmm, yes. I've observed this with a regular partner of mine. His lead is always much 'harder' after he's danced a while with specific women here. It kinda throws me for a bit, because I am used to him being a light but clear lead...and I'm just honestly not particularly good at responding to and cleanly following a rough lead. Makes my following go kinda pear-shaped, every time; probably because I'm spending the whole dance wondering at all the unexpected and unnecessary force.

[sweavo]

It kinda throws me for a bit, because I am used to him being a light but clear lead...and I'm just honestly not particularly good at responding to and cleanly following a rough lead. Makes my following go kinda pear-shaped, every time; probably because I'm spending the whole dance wondering at all the unexpected and unnecessary force.

Yeah, one of my favourite follows gets frightened by a strong lead and tenses up, her following falls apart and my instinct is to lead her stronger. It wasn't until we'd been dancing about 4 years that she mentioned this and I learned to spot it and lighten up again

[noobster]

Yeah, one of my favourite follows gets frightened by a strong lead and tenses up, her following falls apart and my instinct is to lead her stronger. It wasn't until we'd been dancing about 4 years that she mentioned this and I learned to spot it and lighten up again
This totally happens to me. I'm not someone who picks up easily on super-subtle leads, but strength and clarity are on two different axes. I think very overpowering leads cause me to start anticipating in order to avoid being hurt. This leads to a runaway cycle where the guy strengthens his lead because I am not following correctly.

In general I think I am okay with a pretty wide variety of leads. I don't have a strong preference for one type or another; they all make for different types of dances and the variety is part of what I love.

But there's a threshold for roughness that's definitely been surpassed a couple of times. I try to get a sense of the leader in the first minute of the dance and adjust the tension of my follow accordingly, but don't always get it right.

Another thing to consider is that a good lead will always do his best to accomodate the follower. If she was heavy and needed a stronger lead, you should not have tried to lead her with a light lead. She's not advanced enough for it. Be adaptable and work with the follower you are dancing with at the time and what she needs and where she's at, not what she should need and where she will be. This is so true. I feel like sometimes people get caught up in trying to be a particular 'perfect' type of lead or follow ('light' or whatever), but the thing is that there is no perfect lead/follow. There is only the lead/follow that is most appropriate for the partner you're dancing with at the time.

I will dance 100x better with a guy who gives me the lead I need rather than with one who gives me the lead that's perfect for Edie the salsa freak (or whoever).

[quixotedlm]

Where do you draw the line between adaptive leading and degerating into a pushing-shoving carrying-all-her-weight type of leading?

[atk]

Where do you draw the line between adaptive leading and degerating into a pushing-shoving carrying-all-her-weight type of leading?

Where I draw the line is: I refuse to fight with anyoone with whom I partner, and I refuse to force her. Categorically. If she doesn't want to move on her own, she isn't going to move - I'm not going to do it for her. That said, I've found that there are two kinds of people who seem to need heavy leads, at least in my area (I don't know about outside it *grin*).

The first is the person who doesn't know anything about dancing. With this person, I try to do only the basic pattern, and maybe a single turn. If she's absolutely unsure of what to do, I offer to show her the basic, and we only do the basic for the whole dance.

The second person is the new student, who knows a little bit, but is following patterns instead of steps. With this category, everything occurs after the beat (sometimes half way to the next beat), because she's trying to anticipate the pattern, so she's always way behind. I still don't manhandle her - I just accept that it takes longer for her to figure out where we're going than with other people. I adjust by starting the lead earlier, not by being stronger.

If she fights the lead (like, if I try to do a cross-over/new-yorker, and she doesn't let me lower our arms) then I don't lead whatever it was, and stay with stuff she lets me lead.


Then, I guess there's a third category of student that wants heavy leads - some more advanced dancers are very heavy (not body weight, but people who hang on the leader, or use him for balance) and require a very strong lead to do anything more fancy than associate bronze patterns. I'm usually as afraid of them pulling me off balance as I am of leading too strongly, so I don't lead them in anything but associate bronze patterns.

[SalsaManiac]

It's been interesting reading all the different viewpoints presented so far. One thing which I have been actively working on recently is the idea of control i.e how much feedback do I get/give from the follow and how that translates into better communication. The variety of women I dance with ranges from (as was mentioned) dance floor learners to formally trained follows (I just found that one of them used to be Alex Da Silva's early students).

The one thing I have realized from all of this is that different follows need different levels of tension. My prefered mode of dancing is light but firm and in my ideal world, the amount of tension I get should be the amount of tension I give. However, I try adjust the amount of tension I give to the lady based on a couple of strategies:

1) My first one is to start off light and see how she responds to a light lead. If she grips my hands tightly, loses the hand hold, artificially makes herself heavy or in general gets confused with a light lead, then I get progressively firmer until we reach a point where I feel she is clearly reading my signals.

2) The second one is a really poor one which has gotten me into trouble a few times (so I try not use it too often) but I try to use a sliding scale based on the body type of the lady. However, I have soooo surprised by how wrong this can be since some of the smaller women can be the wildest on the floor while the largest ones can be the lightest (perhaps due to them being self conscious of their weight). The first time I danced with a salsa buddy of mine who happens to be on the plus side, I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to lead her.

Anyway, in this particular case with my sister's friend, I think the issue was mostly on her end due to the fact that it was a merengue (as mentioned in my first post) where tension is less critical than salsa as well as the fact that I got absolutely no physical feedback from her. This is why I was initially surprised when she mentioned that I need to be forceful when dancing. In any case, now that I know that is what she prefers, then that is what she will get :raisebro:

--T

[naturallove]

This is why I was initially surprised when she mentioned that I need to be forceful when dancing. In any case, now that I know that is what she prefers, then that is what she will get :raisebro:
--T
Sometimes, you gotta give us ladies what we want, when we want it...:raisebro:

[kfineyouw1n]

When a girl has a strong or heavy follow... i just let her lead me and I end up being the follow. =D its fun except when she starts to jerk my arm.

[Catarina]

This all makes so much sense! My instructor will sometimes comment to me in the middle of class, "relax! you're giving way too much tension" and I'm usually stuck trying to figure out why that happened since I'm almost always having fun and am very relaxed...But now, hearing other people saying it, there are of course guys who aren't nearly as good as the instructor, so i find myself tensing up to anticipate (and with one in particular, save my shoulders from surprise stretches). Then, when I dance with my instructor, I'm more tense than I need to be...

A lot of times when I dance with some one for the very first time, it's like we're making "small talk" by doing a right hand turn, CBL, and one or two other moves or turns to see what kind of lead-follow connection we have. Do a lot of you leads do this to get a feel for how light/heavy the follow is?

[SalsaManiac]

A lot of times when I dance with some one for the very first time, it's like we're making "small talk" by doing a right hand turn, CBL, and one or two other moves or turns to see what kind of lead-follow connection we have. Do a lot of you leads do this to get a feel for how light/heavy the follow is?

This is *precisely* what I do in order to guage a new dance partner. Once I know she can handle basic stuff, I then throw in progressively harder stuff .. however, *how* she handles the basic stuff is as important if not more important than the fact that she can handle them at all.

--T

[sweavo]

The second one is a really poor one which has gotten me into trouble a few times (so I try not use it too often) but I try to use a sliding scale based on the body type of the lady.

I don't think this is a good measure at all. Certainly whenever I say "heavy" or "light" follows, I'm talking about tension and responsiveness, not about body weight. I imagine most guys here mean that too. I think I've found a vague tendency that very overweight women need a stronger drive for multiple turns, but within every body type you will find a whole range of required lead strengths.

(strength is not roughness, nor is it clarity)

[sweavo]

A lot of times when I dance with some one for the very first time, it's like we're making "small talk" by doing a right hand turn, CBL, and one or two other moves or turns to see what kind of lead-follow connection we have. Do a lot of you leads do this to get a feel for how light/heavy the follow is?

What a great M e t a phor!

I do this pretty much every dance.

[SalsaManiac]

I don't think this is a good measure at all. Certainly whenever I say "heavy" or "light" follows, I'm talking about tension and responsiveness, not about body weight. I imagine most guys here mean that too. I think I've found a vague tendency that very overweight women need a stronger drive for multiple turns, but within every body type you will find a whole range of required lead strengths.

(strength is not roughness, nor is it clarity)

Yeah, that's why I explicitly stated that it is a very poor measure.

--T

[noobster]

but within every body type you will find a whole range of required lead strengths.
Perhaps this is true for women, but in my (limited) experience body type correlates rather well with lead strength for men.

The 3-4 guys I can recall who were actually so rough/strong they were unpleasant to dance with were all very large/muscular body types. I wonder if they even realized how much force they were using.

Conversely, the 3 most feather-touch leads I know are all slender, ectomorphic types. They are perfectly clear but do not donate an ounce of momentum: my spin is my bizness. :)

(Actually the spins are where it comes out the most. At this stage in my dancing I can't come up with >3 spins on my own (and >2 usually needs a paddle); I still need some momentum from the leader for more than that. One hefty guy I know actually causes me to resist the momentum when he spins me because he uses so much force that I'm afraid of the speed of the spin.)

Perhaps 'lightness' in a follow mostly comes from being balanced and staying on her own axis, whereas 'lightness' in a lead is more related to a direct application of force to the follow's arms/body?

[Tony_Salvi]

Perhaps this is true for women, but in my (limited) experience body type correlates rather well with lead strength for men.

The 3-4 guys I can recall who were actually so rough/strong they were unpleasant to dance with were all very large/muscular body types. I wonder if they even realized how much force they were using.

Conversely, the 3 most feather-touch leads I know are all slender, ectomorphic types. They are perfectly clear but do not donate an ounce of momentum: my spin is my bizness. :)

(Actually the spins are where it comes out the most. At this stage in my dancing I can't come up with >3 spins on my own (and >2 usually needs a paddle); I still need some momentum from the leader for more than that. One hefty guy I know actually causes me to resist the momentum when he spins me because he uses so much force that I'm afraid of the speed of the spin.)

Perhaps 'lightness' in a follow mostly comes from being balanced and staying on her own axis, whereas 'lightness' in a lead is more related to a direct application of force to the follow's arms/body?

Just to add a different perspective...My girlfriend always comments how she feels safer dancing with bigger leads. She says that sometimes the smaller/thinner men try too hard because they beleive that since they are small they must use more force. But this doesn't exist with the bigger/more muscular leads. This is her experience with beginner to moderately intermediate leads, and I'm sure a lot changes once you get better at leading.

[Catarina]

It seems like the bottom line is that if a "light" lead is dancing with a "light" follow, they'll be in synch, and will dance easily together, but if a "heavy" lead or follow is dancing with a light follow or lead, it's going to be difficult for either one. height, weight, focus/attention all influence how well a follow is going to execute a move that she is both familiar with, and is skill-wise able to do in the timing that the song presents :) ahhhh. so much involved that you just don't bother to think about in the middle of a four minute song.

i have a friend who is shorter than me by maybe 4 or 5 inches, and so theoretically is easier to spin (as I've been told it's easier to make the "halo" around her head when leading shorter women), but because she is also larger than me, she is much more self-conscious and doesn't trust the cues she's given as much and ends up being a much heavier follow...so for her, it's not necessarily that her weight makes it difficult to lead her, but it's how she feels about her weight that weighs her down (:cool: ). i know she's a good swing dancer, and so with time will probably get more comfortable in salsa too...

[danzur]

When I feel a lead or a follow being too forcefull or not pulling their own I show them that they are being forceful. I have to prepare myself because I never know what is going to end up happening, but they get the drift pretty quickly. ***Example: A follow is being really heavy with her arm - laying it on mine and not holding it up on her own. I drop my arm, which makes her arm drop.***

[noobster]

When I feel a lead or a follow being too forcefull or not pulling their own I show them that they are being forceful... ***Example: A follow is being really heavy with her arm - laying it on mine and not holding it up on her own. I drop my arm, which makes her arm drop.***
How do you show a lead he is being too forceful?

I had a dance last night with a lead who acted like he was operating heavy machinery. He was making huge, open, stiff-armed motions to push me around the floor. (He also had terrible body motion, very uncomfortable). I basically just tried to follow as I normally would have, but I was praying for the song to end. (He might have thought it was a great dance though, because he gave me a high-five at the end?!)

Anyway, what can a follow do to tell her lead he is being too forceful? Short of saying so of course.

[saludas]

How do you show a lead he is being too forceful?

I had a dance last night with a lead who acted like he was operating heavy machinery. He was making huge, open, stiff-armed motions to push me around the floor. (He also had terrible body motion, very uncomfortable). I basically just tried to follow as I normally would have, but I was praying for the song to end. (He might have thought it was a great dance though, because he gave me a high-five at the end?!)

Anyway, what can a follow do to tell her lead he is being too forceful? Short of saying so of course.

Why can't you just be honest?

[englezul]

(He might have thought it was a great dance though, because he gave me a high-five at the end?!)



I think you had the distinguished pleasure of dancing with Borat.

[englezul]

Why can't you just be honest?


Because being honest is one of the hardest challenges a person faces. And most fail.

[PasoDancer]

Anyway, what can a follow do to tell her lead he is being too forceful? Short of saying so of course.

Plow them right back. Turn to concrete.

[Tony_Salvi]

I think you had the distinguished pleasure of dancing with Borat.


:uplaugh:

[atk]

It seems like the bottom line is that if a "light" lead is dancing with a "light" follow, they'll be in synch, and will dance easily together, but if a "heavy" lead or follow is dancing with a light follow or lead, it's going to be difficult for either one.

*grin* While I'll agree with that to some degree, it's as often the heavy followers who seem to really enjoy the dances more often.

[saludas]

*grin* While I'll agree with that to some degree, it's as often the heavy followers who seem to really enjoy the dances more often.

LOL - the truism is that the worse dancer always has the most fun, since they are dancing 'up'...

[danzur]

Anyway, what can a follow do to tell her lead he is being too forceful? Short of saying so of course.

How I tell my leads they are being forceful is by telling them physically and verbally if they question or don't understand what I am trying to say physically. E.g. When a lead is pushing hard/constantly my right hand/arm when we are in a closed position lead I push right back. If they look at me funny I release my hand from theirs and say "You are pushing so hard that I have to fight back! My arm and shoulder are tired/sore."

[noobster]

I think you had the distinguished pleasure of dancing with Borat.ROTFLMAO! That is actually a pretty good description of what it was like (and not just the high-five part).

Originally posted by PasoDancer, danzur
Plow them right back. Turn to concrete.
When a lead is pushing hard/constantly my right hand/arm when we are in a closed position lead I push right back.
Is this strategy intended to save me from pain, or to show the leader he is pushing too hard?

It's actually a tactic I've used in the past; it's never been successful. I think it actually makes the dance more painful for me rather than less (last night I just tried to maintain a flexible follow, and I think that was less painful than resisting). And in terms of what it communicated to the leaders, well, what they tended to do was just increase their own tension/force even further, rather than decrease it.

Saludas' suggestion about being honest was interesting. I prefer not to talk when dancing, and I never give verbal instructions (and not just because I'm a not-very-advanced follower). This is because getting verbal instructions from others always stresses me out and ruins my dancing; and I prefer not to inflict that experience on others. But I think if there was ever a time to try it, last night would have been it.

[waltzgirl]

A request is not an instruction. Sometimes, if I don't want to offend someone, I'll say something like "Could you lighten your lead a little? I have a sensitive shoulder." (Yeah, it's sensitive to being yanked out of the socket!)

[danzur]

I also said I would tell them that they are pushing too hard. Another tactic that I have used is releasing my pressure so that their hand keeps going - kind of like when I drop my arm and the follow's arm falls too. Or maybe I just get my point across better to them because they know I am a teacher? I try to make sure that I say things in a positive light and in a positive tone. I don't want people getting angry/upset. It's not worth it. Dancing is fun and that's what I like to enforce! ;D

[Danish Guy]

If the lady likes it hard, she gets it hard.

The only problem is that it can harden up your lead for when you dance with your lighter partners.
Agree!

Having the light clear lead, give the possibility to turn up to a hard clear lead. As I prefer the light clear lead, this is where I start, and this way I won’t start by putting the lady in the hard lead response, if she is the light type.

It have taken some time to realize there’s some ladies that sometimes need a really hard macho “I’m in charge lead”, getting close to a wrestling match for control. They don’t even have to be beginners. Give them what they like, and limit the moves to what will work for this dance. (As always)

As a lead it’s my responsibility she’s safe and having a good time.

[saludas]

Agree!

Having the light clear lead, give the possibility to turn up to a hard clear lead. As I prefer the light clear lead, this is where I start, and this way I won’t start by putting the lady in the hard lead response, if she is the light type.

It have taken some time to realize there’s some ladies that sometimes need a really hard macho “I’m in charge lead”, getting close to a wrestling match for control. They don’t even have to be beginners. Give them what they like, and limit the moves to what will work for this dance. (As always)

As a lead it’s my responsibility she’s safe and having a good time.

I agree with 'safe and having a good time', but I disagree about 'giving them what they like'.. You should never compromise the quality of your dancing, esp as leader. You are doing a disservice to the follow, since then they will NEVER get a better quality lead from you. IMHO, they should dance UP to your level. "Hard' follows require lower level movement (simpler steps etc), since they need to learn sensitivity. Let them figure out why the better dancers feel light and fast....

[Big10]

I agree with 'safe and having a good time', but I disagree about 'giving them what they like'.. You should never compromise the quality of your dancing, esp as leader. You are doing a disservice to the follow, since then they will NEVER get a better quality lead from you. IMHO, they should dance UP to your level. "Hard' follows require lower level movement (simpler steps etc), since they need to learn sensitivity. Let them figure out why the better dancers feel light and fast....
Isn't this thread about social dancing? :? In that context, to me, then the primary "quality" in issue is maximizing the level of my partner's enjoyment. However, it sounds like you're more concerned with the type of "quality" that refers to either the consistency of the dance with some (undefined) standard or the appearance of the dance to onlookers.

Unless I'm dancing with someone whom I know is interested in practicing and/or learning new things during a social dance, then I'll err on the side of leading my partner in a manner closer to her preferred style, rather than mine.

This discussion seems to be based on a premise where the leader is more skilled than the follower, so, if we say the leader is at grade A and the follower is at level B, then I wouldn't go all the way down to B, but I probably wouldn't lead up her past B+, either. If I don't look my best to onlookers, so be it. That's just part of the compromise necessary for social dancing, in my opinion. Letting the follower struggle to keep up with A or A- (and simply hoping that she figures out what she did wrong after the dance is over :roll: ), seems counterproductive to me. If her preferred style/execution is too unpleasant for me, then I just won't invite her again, or I have the option of turning down her invitation to me in the future. In any event, the "zero compromise" position would seem to lead to a lot of unpleasant dances for everybody.

[Danish Guy]

Isn't this thread about social dancing? In that context, to me, then the primary "quality" in issue is maximizing the level of my partner's enjoyment.

If I don't look my best to onlookers, so be it.

Exactly http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-003.gif

[Danish Guy]

I agree with 'safe and having a good time', but I disagree about 'giving them what they like'.. You should never compromise the quality of your dancing, esp as leader. You are doing a disservice to the follow, since then they will NEVER get a better quality lead from you. IMHO, they should dance UP to your level. "Hard' follows require lower level movement (simpler steps etc), since they need to learn sensitivity. Let them figure out why the better dancers feel light and fast....


Until half a year ago this was my philosophy too. Then I realized that you can’t argue about taste, and because they show they sometimes did not appreciate the clear smooth light lead I offered, it didn’t mean they all could not dance, or was not skilled. There are some different lead/follow styles here, and it’s like the on1 / on 2 / Cuban / whatever style. You properly know what you prefer, but this doesn’t out rule the other styles/tastes as wrong.

If she doesn’t respond well to my preferred lead and style, I try to give her what’s making her feel good! This is my challenge as a lead.

[naturallove]

I agree with 'safe and having a good time', but I disagree about 'giving them what they like'.. You should never compromise the quality of your dancing, esp as leader. You are doing a disservice to the follow, since then they will NEVER get a better quality lead from you. IMHO, they should dance UP to your level. "Hard' follows require lower level movement (simpler steps etc), since they need to learn sensitivity. Let them figure out why the better dancers feel light and fast....
Uhh...no. I've heard said of the very best leads (e.g. Ismael Otero) that in addition to having 1,000,000 moves, he knows how to make every woman from beginner to advanced feel successful. I would say the same thing about other amazing leads that I've danced with as well. I think every woman (and man) has to start from somewhere and you should meet people where they are-and accept the fact that we are are STILL learning and may not be quite as good as we THINK we are. As a follower, although I may prefer a much lighter lead, I still have to adapt to where the leader is. (Although I do admit to subtly or not so subtly trying to get my leads back on time when we get off--I just can't take it and need to work on it! But in almost every case, I usually know the lead well.)

[Danish Guy]

..... he knows how to make every woman from beginner to advanced feel successful.

Thats what I try to do, and that is a good lead IMO :)

[saludas]

Hey, I agree with all of you to make the woman 'feel good' but I do NOT think that the way to do it is to dance badly!

It's not about YOU looking good - but it IS about you DANCING well. All I'm saying is that you should not compromise your dance quality in doing your social duty. Yes, it's harder than just being as forceful as the follower, but it is better to dance with the right lead quality - and if you don't, the follow will never learn what it is like to dance with someone who does it well. In a funny way, it's really LESS social to 'dumb down' your dance quality for a follow -

[Danish Guy]

Hey, I agree with all of you to make the woman 'feel good' but I do NOT think that the way to do it is to dance badly!

It's not about YOU looking good - but it IS about you DANCING well. All I'm saying is that you should not compromise your dance quality in doing your social duty. Yes, it's harder than just being as forceful as the follower, but it is better to dance with the right lead quality - and if you don't, the follow will never learn what it is like to dance with someone who does it well. In a funny way, it's really LESS social to 'dumb down' your dance quality for a follow -

I don’t intend to dance badly, only different.

Set a good NY on to dancer together with a good Cuban style dancer.
Either they can’t dance salsa together, or they both have to make compromises and adapt to get the dance fun & working.
If both insist on their flavor is the only right one, it will never work out.

I may lead, but the dance is a conversation, not dictation from the lead side.

It doesn’t “dumb down” my dance quality, but it gives me a challenge.
It, also make me treasure the dances with partners there appreciate following my preferred lead style.

[Tony_Salvi]

Hey, I agree with all of you to make the woman 'feel good' but I do NOT think that the way to do it is to dance badly!

It's not about YOU looking good - but it IS about you DANCING well. All I'm saying is that you should not compromise your dance quality in doing your social duty. Yes, it's harder than just being as forceful as the follower, but it is better to dance with the right lead quality - and if you don't, the follow will never learn what it is like to dance with someone who does it well. In a funny way, it's really LESS social to 'dumb down' your dance quality for a follow -


I'm actually in the middle of both opinions here. This thread was started because of a comment made by a beginner, and it's important to remember that beginner's still have a lot to learn when it comes to tension. If a follower is used to being thrown around the dancefloor roughly, I by no means am going to do the same to her. In this context "dumbing down" my lead to fit the leaders in her beginner class would be a disservice. She can still dance and feel good, but it's because you find a way to lead her through a CBL or right turn instead of dragging her through one. Again...there are many ways to adjust to her level without becoming one of those rough leaders she's accustomed to.

However, I think both leads and follower's need to adjust to themselves when they dance. It's really a compromise on both sides. In that case it's ok to harden or lighten your lead as necessary.

[saludas]

I don’t intend to dance badly, only different.

Set a good NY on to dancer together with a good Cuban style dancer.
Either they can’t dance salsa together, or they both have to make compromises and adapt to get the dance fun & working.
If both insist on their flavor is the only right one, it will never work out.

I may lead, but the dance is a conversation, not dictation from the lead side.

It doesn’t “dumb down” my dance quality, but it gives me a challenge.
It, also make me treasure the dances with partners there appreciate following my preferred lead style.

Dancing badly: forceful lead when you are able to do a better one
Dancing badly: 'stir the girl', etc.

No, dancers who dance different syltes will not have to compromise their dance ability; but trying to do dance in the way a beginner thinks it should feel and be is bad dancing. You should always try to give the highest quality dancing; changing up to be rougher, for instance, is bad dancing.