How on earth do leaders confuse the 1 and the 17?

[Ron Obvious]

As the title indicates, some people dance
17-18-19, 21-22-23, 25-26-27, 29-30-31, 1-2-3, 5-6-7, 9-10-11, 13-14-15 instead of
1-2-3, 5-6-7, 9-10-11, 13-14-15, 17-18-19, 21-22-23, 25-26-27, 29-30-31.

To me it sounds strange to begin halfway in the group of phrases, how do you other people feel?

[sweavo]

As the title indicates, some people dance
17-18-19, 21-22-23, 25-26-27, 29-30-31, 1-2-3, 5-6-7, 9-10-11, 13-14-15 instead of
1-2-3, 5-6-7, 9-10-11, 13-14-15, 17-18-19, 21-22-23, 25-26-27, 29-30-31.

To me it sounds strange to begin halfway in the group of phrases, how do you other people feel?

Sometimes it's just too long to wait until the next musical segment. But if you start in the middle of a section, at least hook up to the structure of the song, wait for the music to shift gear before you do...

[tangotime]

The old problem of being on time and out of rhythm ,-- most dancers don,t give a rats patudi, they just want to dance. No matter how much I try with my beginners classes over the yrs, it takes time for them to understand the musical content., and some never do . It, s
also true , with my ballroom couples ( even more so ) .

I,m more interested in them having a good time in the early stages .

A very famous world class coach once made this comment " Too many people get hung up on their feet, and forget to dance "

[englezul]

As the title indicates, some people dance
17-18-19, 21-22-23, 25-26-27, 29-30-31, 1-2-3, 5-6-7, 9-10-11, 13-14-15 instead of
1-2-3, 5-6-7, 9-10-11, 13-14-15, 17-18-19, 21-22-23, 25-26-27, 29-30-31.

To me it sounds strange to begin halfway in the group of phrases, how do you other people feel?

I don't GET it. Is this post a joke? Or what exactly is it about??

[Ron Obvious]

I don't GET it. Is this post a joke? Or what exactly is it about??

Well, not really, even though there was supposed to be some amusing ingredients, with the relation to the other thread named in a similar way.

But my point is, in the subtext, how far should you go analysing the structure of music when dancing to it? Most people agree that dancing well requires you to be in synch with the music, and therefore some followers tend to complain when leaders don't follow the biphrasal structure of the music, namely dancing 5-6-7, 1-2-3 instead of 1-2-3, 5-6-7.

But there are also deeper structures in music, usually a group of four measures (for example) make a coherent segment in music. So should leaders adopt to that as well? And then there may be structures in music which run in periods of 16 measures? Just how far should you go in your pursuit to be in synch with music?

Clearly, taking such a mathematical approach to music lessens your creativeness, but one could also argue that if one structure of, say 4 measures, needn't be followed, then why must you follow the structure within one measure and start on the 1 and not the 5?

Note: I'm not a musician so I'm not really familiar with the terms. But one measure consists of one clave, right? And two bars?

[Big10]

But there are also deeper structures in music, usually a group of four measures (for example) make a coherent segment in music. So should leaders adopt to that as well? And then there may be structures in music which run in periods of 16 measures? Just how far should you go in your pursuit to be in synch with music?
I agree with your underlying point that counting too much takes away some of the "fun" -- but I do think leaders should at least try to match even the deeper structure of the music.

Even without counting, there are certain points in the music where you can hear/feel it obviously building up to a big accent or change, and it's one of my pet peeves when I watch dancers move through such major musical accents without any real acknowledgement or change in their movements. If you merely guess too early or too late by a few beats about a musical accent, that's understandable -- and it happens to me, too. :oops: Or, some of the changes that happen on 17 or 32 (or whatever) aren't very significant to the flow of the music. However, for example, I would never let the music "break down" from all the instruments into some guaguanco interlude using just the clave and congas, and keep doing my triple spins and Suzy-Q's....but some people do....

[Dancelf]

Note: I'm not a musician so I'm not really familiar with the terms. But one measure consists of one clave, right? And two bars?

In every environment I've been in (which does NOT include discussing music with salseros who know music) bars and measures are synonyms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_%28music%29)

The westie answer is that if you can hear a difference, you should be dancing it. 1s and 5s are danced differently because they sound different, not because the math is different. The same is true for 1s and 3s, 1s and 9s, 1s and 17s, 1s and 33s/49s, etc.

I don't see this when I dance salsa, in a very small sample size.

Standard disclaimer applies, of course.

[tangotime]

Heres an answer to the " count " thing , that has been in exsistence for over sixty yrs-- many latinos, and musicians , use this phrase in conjunction with the strike of the clave--" Shave, haircut--- 2 bits "-- repeat that with your rhythm count and it will become well defined

For the poster who asked about music-- simple explanation-- salsa is written in 4 / 4 time meaning, an equal 4 beats in every bar. The dominant notes, for e.g. 1 and 3 could be described as downbeat ( mambo was 2 and 4 in the old version ) Most music is written in " couplets " that is -- an ascending bar and a descending bar ( 8 beats )
So, you can now see ,that when they add a bar at the end of an eight beat "phrase " that is not connected to the NEXT 8 beat , but starts all over again with a NEW 8 beat "phrase ", thats where the confusion begins for most people .

Add to this what is called " pick up notes " ( syncopations, by adding an " and " thus joining notes together like siamese twins ) you can begin to see that music becomes very complex .
The best e.g. of this is cha cha where a 2 bar phrase is joined by an " and " at the end of every 2 bars thus creating the " cha cha cha " sound-- meaning 4 and 1 .
Interesting , that Guajira has a different timing signature syncopating within the bar, as in 1 2 3 and 4 .

[dgcasey]

Even without counting, there are certain points in the music where you can hear/feel it obviously building up to a big accent or change, and it's one of my pet peeves when I watch dancers move through such major musical accents without any real acknowledgement or change in their movements.

And then there's the guys like me that will take a closed position with my partner and then take 4-6 measures to figure out when to start. I'm sure I've had a partner or two start to wonder if I've fallen asleep. ;)

[Ron Obvious]

In every environment I've been in (which does NOT include discussing music with salseros who know music) bars and measures are synonyms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_%28music%29)

Standard disclaimer applies, of course.

Well, I thought so too, but this page has differing information (in the middle of the page):
http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/clavetheory/clavetheory2.htm

[englezul]

Well, I thought so too, but this page has differing information (in the middle of the page):
http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/clavetheory/clavetheory2.htm


The problem with the internet is that everybody can post "information" out there. Whether it is accurate or not, unless you already know what you're talking about, you cannot tell. I tend to take free hosting websites with a grain of salt.

[tangotime]

What eng.z means is this-- he was demonstrating how, as a genearl rule, people cannot identify the musical composition of pretty much all songs-- for. e.g -- a 4 bar intro ( sometimes more ) then could be a 16 bar phrase with a 16 bar repeat ( thats the 32 ) Knowing when those changes take place , is dancing rhythmically .

The problems can go deeper , as I explained earlier, when they write a 4 bar transition phrase , thus changing the melodic sequence. Kapish ?

[sweavo]

In every environment I've been in (which does NOT include discussing music with salseros who know music) bars and measures are synonyms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_%28music%29)



Eurocentric musicians count *1* 2 3 4 *2* 2 3 4 *3* 2 3 4 ... etc
As a (casual) salsa teacher I explain the "dancer's measure" to be eight counts but distinguish it from bars .

Us gringos need to listen to the music for pleasure rather than necessity, then the inspiration and the connection will happen all by itself.

It's hard to teach this because you might have 70 repetitions of 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8 in a song and only 4 really good accents worth picking out, and 8 tangible changes of mood. So for practical reasons, these less frequent occurences are not really teachable.

[Ron Obvious]

The problems can go deeper , as I explained earlier, when they write a 4 bar transition phrase , thus changing the melodic sequence. Kapish ?

si, capisco.

And actually, we don't have to count to be able to hear where we are in the phrases; there are clues in the music. Usually we are at least able to hear when a song is about to end.

[tangotime]

So true-- all ya have to do-- is listen !! ( well not all )

[Dancelf]

As a (casual) salsa teacher I explain the "dancer's measure" to be eight counts but distinguish it from bars .


I understand the problem. Is there a reason you don't use "mini-phrase"?

[Vince A]

. . . people cannot identify the musical composition of pretty much all songs . . .
I believe that this is the "key" term here.

Most beginners and a lot of everyone else just cannot hear the beat . . . it's not a rhythm thing.

It's repetition . . . as most individuals kinda sychronize their movements with music patterns that repeat, and repeat, and repeat. And most of the time, some of these individuals make it worse by focusing on the wrong things in the music, instead of some of the better things like a bass drum or even a bass guitar.

So, if they really "know" a song that is being played . . . they may be dancing to a familiar lead guitar riff . . . or fast ride cymbal . . . having no idea what a measure or bar is.

It just takes time to learn if they want to take dancing more seriously . . . it can be learned . . .

[tangotime]

Now you,re on my bandwagon. All trained b/room teachers , are taught to count in beats and bars.
The reason the salsa " world " counts the way it does, is mainly because the majority of " teachers ? " have no formal training . it seems to have caught on from the choreographers " counting " in the phrase . Now-- thats not a bad thing in and of its self , but one needs to be able to identify bars, to make it possible ,
to teach phrasing - THATS the whole point ! , and primarily why many have problems in the musical interpretation . Basic musical concepts is the key foundation to ALL dance genres .

Never understood what is so difficult about-- " q q 1-- qq 2" etc , etc .

[Josh]

Well, I thought so too, but this page has differing information (in the middle of the page):
http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/clavetheory/clavetheory2.htm

Yeah, it says "This simply means there are four counts to a bar of music. Eight counts to a measure." haha. Maybe they shouldn't post totally incorrect crap on their webpage. Ridiculous.

[Sabor]

there should be a balance between the timing u dance on and the way u express the music..

meaning that whatever timing u dance too u should be consistent with it YET still be flexioble to highlight the musical ingredient with its highs and lows and stops and reversals.. ie. flavor

so.. hey if u start on the 5 instead of 1 then keep it so throughout the song as long as the structure maintains.. the problem is if u keep jumping from the 1 and the 5 cause u are constantly mixing up musical phrases there.. messes the flow.. meanwhile play the highlights of the music and express it within that structure .. so even if u go out of it .. u are back in sync as u get back into it..

sure.. there is much more than timing to dance.. but its is the basic u build on.. so u can't just throw it out..

in a nutshell.. start whenever.. but keep it.. then within that.. dance.. if u do what u do intentionally and with awareness and can lead it smoothly..expressing it with flavor.. hey.. dance on 3.333 if u like.. it is not on the 1 & 5 .. or 2 & 6.. dancing mostly happens in between those beats.. still.. can't do it with out them.. si?

[marie]

there should be a balance between the timing u dance on and the way u express the music..

in a nutshell.. start whenever.. but keep it.. then within that.. dance.. if u do what u do intentionally and with awareness and can lead it smoothly..expressing it with flavor.. hey.. dance on 3.333 if u like.. it is not on the 1 & 5 .. or 2 & 6.. dancing mostly happens in between those beats.. still.. can't do it with out them.. si?


So well said. I also love it when guys lead cool syncopations and rhythms. If you have a good connection and I feel like I am grooving with him as a follow, it's like the coolest things will happen. I had a great dance a few weeks ago and the leader hardly led anything in the basic footwork but led so many great rhythmic things that it was like going on a cool ride. I kept thinking "Weee! Look what my feet are doing now!" The essence I think was that we had a great connection and were feeling both each other and the music.