Getting personal with dance teachers?

[pygmalion]

Question to all you dancers. Just how personal do you get with your dance teacher? I'm not alluding to romance, here. Just relationships -- friendships, if you will. Do you view your dance teacher as a service provider, or a close friend, or something in between? And how to you maintain a comfortable balance? Is there a right or a wrong here?

[tango]

Well I have to say that it's a business relationship. I would like to get to know my dance instructors more since we spend more time with them them many of our friends and you can't help but develop a 'type' of relationship with them. But, alas it's not built on a real foundation for friendship, at our studio anyway, it's 'pay to play', not a good way to start a friendship. I have just resolved myself to the fact that they see me as a pay cheque and I see them as a service provider. In my heart it's not the way I act in life and I always try to make friends everywhere I go, even the last car salesman I dealt with, but because of the way this studio operates it's only in their best interest if I develop any emotional attachements to the instructors.

Now, if you find an instructor who is open and willing to be genuine in that friendship then by all means go for it, we can never have too many friends! But, you know the signs that say it's about money or a one way relationship and no-one needs any of those types of friends.

[peachexploration]

Well, all the instructors I've had make it a point NOT to get too close. I definitely understand that and for the most part rather it be that way also. It's just better for both parties. In the beginning, I tried to make it more of a casual, friendly relationship but I learned very quickly by attitude and body language that is was a no no. It's all good. I'd rather make friends with other "students". I'm mostly dancing with them anyway. :D

[KevinL]

Question to all you dancers. Just how personal do you get with your dance teacher? I'm not alluding to romance, here. Just relationships -- friendships, if you will. Do you view your dance teacher as a service provider, or a close friend, or something in between? And how to you maintain a comfortable balance? Is there a right or a wrong here?

Some studios actively discourage interpersonal interactions between students and teachers. The NDCA guidelines (http://www.ndca.org/information/brochures/NDCAProfCertif120.pdf) section II, D say that if a teacher is unable to maintain a professional relatioship that they should terminate the relationship.

I think that is a little harsh, and where do you draw the line? All my friends in Vermont have taken some of my dance classes. I tried to behave professionally while they were in my class, but some of them have moved beyond me and haven't been in my classes for several months. We are friends now, but that is because they are no longer my students.

One of my ex-students now friends had a party at her house last night and everyone there had taken a some of my classes. Some have moved on, but there were some others who are still my students. The difference between being professional and being friendly is difficult. One couple wants to invite people to a dinner party at their house in February, but because they specifically want to invite me, my schedule dictates when the party will be held.

I feel somewhat uncomfortable with all these great and wonderful people because they do (or did) pay me to spend time in my classes, and yet they still want me to be involved in their lives socially. It's a difficult position for me, especially because I don't have non-dancing friends locally. How do I deal? I'm professional but friendly in class, and (unfortunately) reserved around them outside of class. Is that the right answer? I'm not sure, but it works for me.

Kevin

[pygmalion]

Yes. This is a tough one. And from the student's perspcetive, it's not easy either. Where do you draw the line? Especially if you're like me and have an open and friendly personality, it seems very unnatural to spend so much time in someone's company and not become friends. But if you do become friends, how do you maintain the professional distance it takes to accept effective coaching, or perhaps move onto another teacher?

This is a tough one, no matter how you slice it.

[DanceMentor]

As a dance teacher, I have found it to be a disadvantage to become friends with the students. Generally, I just don't keep the students as long. I can't necessarily pinpoint exactly what happens. Nevertheless, I have cultivated some great friendships with people over the years, and there can be benefits of making friends. I just have to be prepared to lose the teacher-student relationship.

[salsachinita]

Earlier this year I spent some time seeing this dance instructor, and noticed that his 'closeness' (friendship only) to his students seemed to bother me a little.

Most of the pros I know would generally be socially friendly to their students, but the respectable student-teacher distance (dancer's hierachy?) is maintained. (This way the money exchange became clear?)

This guy was constantly invited to go to his students' places to have dinner, going to clubs etc. His phone would ring or he would get text messages (all kinds of hours!). AND he would actually GO to all of these things if he was not performing (dragging me along most of the time, so jealousy isn't an issue).

Then he would wonder if he should charge these students when they turn up to group classes :shock: !

I was uncomfortable with the situation from the start, and I came to doubt the intentions of some of these students too......

What do you guys think?

[Jana]

It is a personal matter and I'm sure a difficult one for many people. It would seem natural if a person doesn't socialize to want to put all of their energy and feelings into their dance instructor. Especially given the fact that they take private lessons with him/her and there's nothing like that one-on-one feeling for 45 minutes or so. However, one must be very careful about this. Though I have heard of teachers getting romantically involved with their students (I know of three teachers who ended up marrying their students), generally speaking, its strictly business. Many teachers would rather drop their "lovelorn" students than risk either losing their jobs and/or their livelihood. It gets even stickier if the teacher already has a significant other, fiance or spouse. Then, most likely, they would tell their student to find another teacher. Besides, if you have a good teacher, is it worth the risk to lose him/her because you have feelings for them? However, my teacher is very friendly with me as well as his other students. And, he did invite his students over his condo for Christmas (he lives with his girlfriend who is also his dance partner). And I know he definitely chums around with some of his male students who dance out of that studio. I remember making a comment to him when I first started dancing with him, when overhearing someone say that so and so was dating his student, that that's a definite "no no". His reply was "hey, if he wants to, its his business". That's part of the advantage of being an independent teacher (someone who is not employed by a given studio). So, there you have it.

[Swing Kitten]

Welcome to the forums Jana it very good to have you along!

It certainly is a great topic for discussion... not a cut and dry scenerio

[cl5814]

My 2c is that friendship is where the relationship thing starts, that in my case went sour........... to the point where the teacher became someone i would rather not associate with. Friendship yes, but plutonic friendship, that's it if both parties are proffessional about the friendship. Afterall, be careful.

[pygmalion]

Hi Jana! Welcome.

I think both you and cl5814 have made good points about the teacher/student friendship issue.

I've had two dance teachers (out of thirteen) to whom I've extended my friendship, and the issues have been around differing definitions of teacher/student relationships. To me, the teacher/student relationship between an adult and a child looks a lot different than the teacher/student relationship between two adults. I had one teacher who agreed with me, and one who didn't. (Incidentally, I'm a lot more careful giving friendship than romance. Romances come and go, but my friendships go deep and pretty much last forever.)


It's tough, no matter how you slice it, and doesn't necessarily have to involve romance to get sticky. And, incidentally, teachers are almost as likely to fall for students as the reverse.

I guess the goal is to get things clearly defined up front and keep negotiating until everyone involved reaches consensus, and then keep the lines of communication open, even if it gets uncomfortable or embarrassing.

[Jana]

If you can (and this can be hard), try to see your teacher out of "teacher mode". In other words, observe him/her, if possible, when they are not at the studio or teaching students. Say, for example, if the studio has a special event coming up and invites all private students. So, you have a mix of teachers and students. Or even at a given competition where there are a lot of people around. Observe your teacher. Are they easily commingling with other teachers and other students from other studios. If so, how do they act with other people there in general? This way, you see them not as your teacher but as a regular person. Do they only talk with other teachers? Are they partial only to their students who are paying out the most money for lessons? Or seem to favor their students who are doing exceptionally well in competitions? If you dance with your teacher in competitions, how do they treat you? Is it "thanks for doing the comp, see you at the studio" next week or whenever you normally have a lesson with them or do they say, "you did great at this comp, hope you stay to enjoy the rest of it." If they encourage you to stay on and watch, then they are open, friendly and want you to feel a part of the whole event. If they brush you off or are not very encouraging, then suffice to say that they pretty much are only interested in you for the money. At my studio I dance out of, the studio encourages their students to attend dance parties and once a year they have a Thanksgiving get together for all private students and openly call their students their friends. So, in that way, even though the students are paying for their lessons and anything else they get involved at the studio, the studio also sees them as friends, however casually that may be. Some teachers are "hands on" in that they will hug their students after a lesson. That can sometimes give a person mix signals unless they do it with everyone. Should that happen and you are not comfortable with it, by all means, tell your teacher to stop doing that. The bottom line is being comfortable with your teacher and if you find yourself "falling" for them, you need to put the brakes on your heart and see if its something that could end up hurting you, either personally or in regards to your dancing. Relationships can happen between teacher and student but you need to be sure that both of you are on the same page, so to speak and recognize the possible consequences to your dancing should it become serious. Sorry for the long message here!

[SDsalsaguy]

Sorry for the long message here!
No apology needed Jana... some good information and suggestions there! :D

[pygmalion]

The bottom line is being comfortable with your teacher and if you find yourself "falling" for them, you need to put the brakes on your heart and see if its something that could end up hurting you, either personally or in regards to your dancing. Relationships can happen between teacher and student but you need to be sure that both of you are on the same page, so to speak and recognize the possible consequences to your dancing should it become serious. Sorry for the long message here!

Great post, Jana. I think your bottom line is a good one. The policy I've developed is to "let the teacher lead." Meaning let them decide how friendly or strictly professional the relationship is going to be. I've never had a crush on a teacher, so I'm not sure how I'd handle that situation. But, in terms of friendship, I offer friendship if I feel it will be well received. If not, it's strictly business. That policy works well if everybody is committed to communicating openly.

Edit: I want to be completely honest about this, because I think it's important. I've never fallen in love with a dance teacher, although I've had some teachers who were truly loveable people. I have felt physical attraction a time or two, but I'm too old and cynical to mistake that for anything other than what it is -- curiosity. So I've never allowed myself to develop deeper feelings for any one of my teachers. That said, friendliness and cordiality are a given. Just, as a rule, not deeper friendship or love.

[dragon3085]

Life is too short to let business get in the way of making a friend or friends. And for purposes of this discussion it sound like we are just talking about that and not trying to date or marry your instructor. That would be whole nother can of worms. We have thing called free will and I think we are free to form friendship irregardless of the artificial implications that business try to force on us. Just be prepared to take the good with the bad. In real traditional martial arts schools, It not uncommon for upper belts to be good friends with the instructors, I mean come on these are people that you entrust your health to in terms of letting them hit you and do thing that can cause bodily injury. In fact the dojo is like your family with both bigger and smaller siblings. Dancing is by far a more social event, so I should think you would want those bonds to be even stronger.

just my 2cents
Pat

[pygmalion]

I understand where you're coming from, dragon3085, and to an extent, I agree. I have made "friends" with two of my former teachers.

It just gets fuzzy, because in some instances, dance studios have actual written policies that prohibit teachers making friends with students, and in other cases, teachers have personal codes of ethics that limit the extent of friendship.

I'm not looking for love, but I am looking to make friends wherever I can. But, as a true friend, I don't want to create a difficult or impossible situation for my teacher. So I more or less let them decide what they want, and follow their lead.

[dragon3085]

Thats true, some studios are afraid they will lose money or something. I wonder how legal such policies are since you essential denying someone a basic human right. I bet if contested it would be found unconstitutional so long as the person wasn't teaching on side for under the table payment. As far as ethics go, well they have free will to have those too- in you have to respect them. In some cases I have seen students complete their journey in dance or go to another studio, in which case they are free to make friends with form instructors.

I understand where you're coming from, dragon3085, and to an extent, I agree. I have made "friends" with two of my former teachers.

It just gets fuzzy, because in some instances, dance studios have actual written policies that prohibit teachers making friends with students, and in other cases, teachers have personal codes of ethics that limit the extent of friendship.

I'm not looking for love, but I am looking to make friends wherever I can. But, as a true friend, I don't want to create a difficult or impossible situation for my teacher. So I more or less let them decide what they want, and follow their lead.

[pygmalion]

Yeah. I guess you do have to respect people's ethics, even if you disagree with them. For me, friendship is a precious thing, without limits, and if I offer it to you, I mean it, non-fraternization policy or no.

That's why I'm so careful about offering friendship to dance teachers. A lot of them don't feel free to accept my friendship. *shrug* :?

[dragon3085]

yes its sad because I think in many cases they are taken advantage of by the studio in being told they can be sued if the fraternize or other things. If they don't know any better you can't blame them for covering their butts for what amounts to in my mind, intimidation tactics.

[pygmalion]

And you can't blame the studios for wanting to protect their customer base.

It's just a shame that so many potential friendships never happen, and that so many people can get hurt.

[tango]

This topic come up a lot and I think everyone feels it at some point in their dance endevours. For me, like you Jenn, I always offer friendship to those I meet in life. With the dance instructors we have I let them choose what level of relationship they want.

For example I freely answer questions about my life to my instructor when they ask, but I very rarely ask them anything personal. Why? I'm not really sure, but I think part of developing a relationship involves being open, which is the part I provide. From the instructors perspective they may have a difficult time opening up and deciding how close they want to get because if we stop dancing with them they'll get hurt. This is specific to studio's that have non-fraternization contracts (i.e. the one I train at). So, from what I've seen so far there is a wall that keeps it business like and I do the same but I still talk as though we were friends.

As I've stated before, it only irritates me when the studio uses the emotions developed between student/instructor to sell their product. This studio has very skilled instructors and I couldn't be happier with that part of the service. It bugs me when they use the emotional angle to get new contracts instead of focusing on their skill and ability.

As far as ethics go, true friendship will always be free from ethical debate. The only issue is the ethics of the studio that punishing instructors for following the natural path to friendship.

[pygmalion]

As far as ethics go, true friendship will always be free from ethical debate. The only issue is the ethics of the studio that punishing instructors for following the natural path to friendship.

Amen to this, tango. As I've said, I offered friendship to two of my former teachers. One accepted and returned my friendship. The other engaged me in this ethical debate, which I understand and respect. But my view is, if there are stringent and one-sided limits on a relationship, is it really friendship, or is it just a close acquaintance? I'm okay with either one. I just need to be clear about what I'm dealing with.

[Jana]

I'm not an expert on this, just a general observer. I did have a crush on a previous teacher. When I let it be known, he was repulsed by it. He was very young then and it may have been something he had never dealt with before. The teacher I have now is great and yes, his personality, his values, etc. are something I would like to find in a man. I do wish the situation was different because he is the type of person I'd be interested in dating but he has a live-in girlfriend who is also his dance partner, so obviously, that's not an option. During the lesson time, it's strictly business for me, much like taking a class at a local college. You're there to learn the subject, not to gaze at the teacher. But we have had some personal conversations such as controlling one's weight, talking about what movies we've seen, etc. I have looked at other students dancing at the studio to see if anyone "lights my fire" but up to this point, it hasn't happened. They are either too young (under 30) or too old (55+). It's been difficult to finding female friends as they, too, fall in the same age categories. But I'm still enjoying the dancing and all it entails. I don't mind being a loner.

[pygmalion]

Hi Jana! :D

I had a feeling you had more to say about this topic.

It's tough, isn't it? A lot of people start dancing because of emotional needs in their personal lives, then they spend countless hours in the arms, or at least company, of nice, attractive people who are being paid to care how they feel. It's a recipe for disaster. I'm surprised more people don't get fatal crushes on their teachers.

I think you hit on an important point in one of your previous posts. It's important to keep a balance in your life. Don't just focus on dancing, because then your teacher becomes the center of your emotional universe, and it feels like love. It may or may not BE love -- it just feels like it.

I had a really obsessive love/hate relationship witth a former teacher -- fortunately for me, he was gay, so the issue of my falling in love never came up. But at the time, my life was falling apart. My significant other and I were breaking up, I had just lost my lucrative job, a family member was gravely ill, and a few other things were going on. AND this teacher was one of those exploitative types who takes advantage of emotional ties to sell dance lessons. Yikes! I ended up spending every afternoon dancing with him and every night thinking about him -- usually mean things he'd said or done. But still, he was the center of my universe for a while. No surprise there. Maybe that's why I learned to keep SOME emotional distance until I'm sure it's safe. It's all very well and good to like, even love your teachers. But there is a built-in imbalance in the typical teacher/student relationship, and I require my friends to be on equal footing with me. If the teacher has the upper hand, they can't (in my mind) truly be my friend.

[tsb]

Question to all you dancers. Just how personal do you get with your dance teacher? I'm not alluding to romance, here. Just relationships -- friendships, if you will. Do you view your dance teacher as a service provider, or a close friend, or something in between? And how to you maintain a comfortable balance? Is there a right or a wrong here?

it's been said that the love of money is the root of all evil. i believe in the truth of this statement, so the fact that money exchanges hands throws speed bumps out there, especially when teaching is one's livelihood. with this in mind i submit that the largest single factor will be the attitude of the instructor. if an instructor values the relationship/friendship more than the $, it can be possible to be good friends.

my former teachers are a husband & wife team that also attend my church. not only is their five year old in my kid's church class, but the husband also participates in the same men's group as i, and i became privy to a lot of stuff you normally wouldn't know about a couple. that got awkward.

it's a lot easier to be friends now though since i haven't studied with them for a couple of years and i'm more of a peer in that i'm working with some of the same performance groups that they did & i starting teaching on the side. but i also had to stop inviting their students to my dance parties (i have a studio in my home, mirrors, bar, the works).

my teachers firmly believe in "non-fraternization", that is to say, romantic relationships between a teacher & student are not appropriate. it's funny because they wanted to hire me to run a monthly dance for them, but they were more interested in me meeting some of their female students (they think everybody should be married) so they hired someone else & let me come to the dance for free and "schmooze". still single though :D

[pygmalion]

it's been said that the love of money is the root of all evil. i believe in the truth of this statement, so the fact that money exchanges hands throws speed bumps out there, especially when teaching is one's livelihood. with this in mind i submit that the largest single factor will be the attitude of the instructor. if an instructor values the relationship/friendship more than the $, it can be possible to be good friends.



I agree with this. The one teacher who ended up being a friend of mine, is the one who refused, despite financial difficulties of his own, to use his studio's high pressure tactics on me. That's how I knew we had transcended the teacher/student thing and become real friends. He's a great guy.

[dancin_feet]

The studio I go to has one of those "non fraternisation" clauses, where the teachers aren't allowed to be in a student's company without another teacher around. We can all go for drinks, etc, but there has to be at least two students and two teachers present.

I can understand it. Have seen people fall for their instructors enough and it just makes for a very sticky situation for both the instructor and the student. I absolutely love my instructor (not like that) because our personalities mesh quite well. I see him more as an older brother type of figure that you can have a go at and tease, but that's it. We have a good old yak while we are dancing, he tells me about his family and what his kids were up to and I tell him about my friends and work. A couple of the other female students and I have little fantasies and jokes when we are socialising outside of the studio, (let's face it, who can resist when you are in such intimate contact with a good looking and charming male?) but that's all they are. We would never dream of moving in on him.

We are all on quite good terms with his wife as well. She loves what he does, often describing it as we get the foreplay and she gets the fun part!! :shock: :lol:

[pygmalion]

It sounds like you've found a great balance here, dancin_feet. Yes, getting personal with a dance teacher is a tricky proposition for everybody.

[volleybgrl]

For example I freely answer questions about my life to my instructor when they ask, but I very rarely ask them anything personal. Why? I'm not really sure, but I think part of developing a relationship involves being open, which is the part I provide. From the instructors perspective they may have a difficult time opening up and deciding how close they want to get because if we stop dancing with them they'll get hurt. ...So, from what I've seen so far there is a wall that keeps it business like and I do the same but I still talk as though we were friends...

I'm with you tango. What should be interesting to see is how my current situation will play out in the future. I knew my current dance instructor (from college) before learning that we were both into salsa. So far we've been able to handle the role changes really well, but I don't know how it will play out in the future. I think that though students and teachers can be friendly with each other, unless they have a relationship with a separate outlet (same dance company, work, etc) it's typically not a relationship that deserves the titles of "friends."

[Porfirio Landeros]

I beleive that there's no good reason why you can't become friends with anyone you interact with often, whether they be your instructor or the clerk scanning your groceries, or your mail carrier, or co-workers.

I think the reason why people get hurt more often in the dance world is students often mistake a polite instructor, doing his/her job, as being a close friend before the instructor has done anything more than his/her job. That was a good suggestion about seeing how the teacher is with you outside of the dance setting.

Sadly, there are the few dance teachers that are fake and polite, just to get you to spend more, so I think the NDCA's warning statement should be considered, and always proceed w/ caution.

[dancing_moogle]

Wow! I can't believe this subject was brought up because I've been thinking about this. I'm quite a wishful-thinker myself when I think about my (student-teacher) relationship with my teacher. He's kinda cute, and we laugh at each in each lesson, etc... But he always travels in/out of the country, so.... I can't really expect more than the student-teacher relationship we have. ^_~ But I like the way we are now, so I'm not complaining.

I just think if there's something personal going on between a student and a teacher and there's a considerable age difference between the two (let's say 10 yrs apart?), then that's plain W-R-O-N-G!! And disgusting, too. :x

I enjoyed reading all your observations and opinions on this forum. It's quite an education! ^_~

[pygmalion]

Hmm. There's another interesting thread on a similar topic. Hmm. what's it called? Advice Needed: a hypothetical dance romance (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1940)

Check that one out, too. :wink:

Since I started this thread, I want to say again clearly that I was asking about friendship here, not romance. But still, both topics do come up fairly often, so enjoy the read. 8) :D Oh yeah, and please respond to whatever. The more people in the conversation, the more interesting it gets. :D

[dr daffy]

Hehe, here comes the input from the one who always replies the latest... weee :)

anyways, i believe in having a friendship with my dance teachers. somehow, it makes me want to dance even better. as of now, i take dance at school as well as at a studio and i have two separate teachers. i'm friends with both of them, more so the one at school than the one at my studio. i go to my teacher to talk about things that i normally talk about with my friends and she always listens to me and has something to say. i took an ap history class last semester and i was very stressed from it and it normally resulted in my going to my dance class in tears and she used to always pull me aside and listen to me and comfort me. It helps to have someone like that because it makes my dancing process easier. i like knowing that i can trust my teacher with anything and i like having her helping me in my dance techniques as well. it's always good to have good relations with dance teachers... helps your confidence as well as your dance skills :D

well, that was my input :P

[dr daffy]

Just wanted to add a little something else...

a romantic relationship with a dance teacher isn't always the best idea considering it may cause emotional problems and it might not go too well in that class. (i'm getting this from the movie, Center Stage, lol)

but yeah, i don't like the idea of a romantic relationship with a dance teacher although being friends with them is always fun! :)

[tango]

I agree with the 'it's good to be friends with your instructor' but maybe we need to define what friendship is (in this instance)? Is it outside the studio or strictly in the studio? Does it matter? Do they even want to be friends?

In my case it's strictly in the studio because it's one of the franchises with controlling contracts for the instructors. So I doubt I'll ever sit down outside of the studio and actually talk about stuff (nondance related) with my instructor. The reality is I doubt they even want too. I think instructors enjoy the friendly chat's and interesting stories, which makes their days more enjoyable, but I'm sure they have their own circle of friends and relationships that need tending and time.

If I'm one of a dozen or so regulars that my instructor(s) work with, how can they reasonably be expected to treat everyone the same if they spend time with certain students outside the studio? Obviously, everyone is free to pick and choose their friends but it can be seen as preferential treatment if they accept one students invitation but not anothers. This results in hurt feeling and possibly loosing that student. Most of use understand that people can't do everything but there are others that see rejection, in any form, as a slight against them personally.

I'm playing a little bit of the Devil's advocate here just for the sake of discussion.

[dr daffy]

In my case, with my outside studio teacher, it's strictly in the dance studio that i'm friends with her. However, with my dance teacher at school, it's in and out of the studio... she's a great friend :wink:

[dancing_moogle]

I think all teachers like to get to know their students. I'm surprised that all my teachers tolerate me for who I am because I'm someone who likes to listen more than talk. :oops:

I try to make our situation such that I let him know I'm very interested in dancing and competing. So our conversations are 90% relevant to dancing. I'd be surprised if he wanted to ask me out. :shock:

I do think finding that the teacher doesn't "like" you the same way he "likes" others could hurt, but I know my limits. At least we laugh and hug at the end of every lesson (like you do with a casual friend), and... I dunno. Maybe that's a line to draw a friendship between a teacher and a student. :?

[Jana]

Everyone has so many different philosophies about this. It's *******ing. Perhaps this topic has been overdone but its nice to touch base with other dancers and see how they feel about this. Like I've said, I think my dance teacher is great and I have learned so much from him. He has helped me correct technique mistakes that I had been making in the past. We are very comfortable with each other as we've been dancing together almost four years. He's told me he liked me and said it in a very sweet way. I do wish things could be different because he has great qualities I've been looking for in a man. However, he is presently involved with his dance partner and so that is not an option for me right now. Yes, it can be difficult to decipher if a teacher simply likes you as a loyal customer or if they perhaps would be interested in taking it to the next level. Each person has to decide for themselves where they want to go with this. If there is attraction on one side, then its up to that person to decide if its worth investigating and perhaps taking a calculated risk. They may be pleasantly surprised or disappointed by the other person's reaction. Bottom line: anything is possible as teacher-student romance does happen but where there is money involved, a person needs to really think it through and make sure they are thinking clearly. The student could end up short-changed.

[pygmalion]

Hi Jana! It's nice to see you back. 8)

Yes, it is *******ing to hear so many views expressed. And it's funny how everyone will tell you the same thing -- teachers and students shouldn't get involved. Then a large number of them will tell you how they got burned when they ignored that rule. Funny. When you put people together in intimate situations, like it or not, sometimes intimate things happen.

I haven't re-read the whole thread, so I hope I'm not repeating myself, but I have to say that I think teachers bear the primary responsibility for clearly defining the terms of teacher/student relationships -- both verbally and through keeping their behaviors consistent with their words. I think it was you who mentioned the danger of mixed messages earlier in this thread. And while some students misguide themselves into seeing a romance that just isn't there, some teachers, intentionally or unintentionally, feed that misguidance through their behavior.

And, personally, I believe the teacher is the professional, the one with the training, the one with the tens, twenties, or hundreds of student relationships to maintain. And he/she should draw the lines, and clearly. That way, no one gets hurt.

And then, if teacher or student or both decide it's worth the risk to step over those lines, best of luck to them both. Just because you're in a teacher/student relationship temporarily, doesn't mean it has to stay that way forever, if both parties want things to change. Just make sure the teacher quits the franchise first. LOL. :wink: :lol:

[Jana]

I remember one instance of a teacher dating one of his students and the other students of his knew about it and didn't object! That surprised me but they felt that he and that student made a good match and so they were happy when they ended up getting married. The teacher was in his early 40's and she was around the same age. However, that strikes me as an exception to the rule. Normally, I'd say if that scenario happened, it would be best to keep it "under wraps". Otherwise, it would be a problem for all concerned. And with regards to the age difference, in many cases, the students are a few years older than the teacher since many teachers start teaching at around 21 or 22. And, many of the female students are in their 30's and 40's, making them significantly older than their teachers. Being friends with one's teacher is great as it helps make dancing enjoyable and comfortable. But as for romance, don't be too eager to jump into the fire unless you are aware of the potential consequences and you are sure the feeling is mutual.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Interesting. In my view, it's none of my business who my dance teacher dates (or is married to), even if it is one of his students.

I'd prefer him to be happy and well-adjusted, if at all possible, though, so it doesn't impact my lessons. Did I ever tell you the story of my former dance teacher who burst into tears and had to cancel my lesson the day his boyfriend dumped him? :shock: Eeek! That's a bit too personal for me. I felt bad for the guy, but I really didn't want to know.

[pygmalion]

That's another interesting thing. Most times when this topic comes up, a large age difference is mentioned. Hmm. I had two (out of thirteen) teachers who were significantly younger than I, but the vast majority have been in my age group. *shrug* I guess it depends.

Although I do know what you mean, Jana, about the older woman/younger male teacher scenario. Quite a few older -- retirement age or older -- women have the same teachers as I do. I can't say that I'd be entirely comfortable seeing a romantic relationship spring up between one of my male teachers and one of the older ladies, but hey, to each his own, I guess.

[Jana]

If you don't particularly want to hear about your teacher's personal life, then I can see that this would be uncomfortable. But in general, with regard to teacher/student relationships, if the teacher is employed by the dance studio, then he/she is obligated to follow the rules and regulations of that studio, and that would include hands-off with regards to having personal relationships with students. However, if a teacher is independent and simply uses the studio's premises for teaching, then he/she has more leeway and can pretty much do as they please, as my teacher had told me a couple of years ago when I replied that teachers weren't supposed to be getting personally involved with their students. I'm in total agreement that teachers should be upfront with their brand new students before they even begin teaching them. By upfront, I mean not just talking about the cost, time commitment expectations, competitions, etc. but also personally with regards to their relationship with their students. If a teacher is adamant that they DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, wish to get personally involved with their students' lives or having a personal relationship with them, then this clearly needs to be spelled out from the beginning. That way, the student can't say he/she wasn't warned ahead of time. Rather a contradiction, isn't it, that dancing with someone involves close body and eye contact and yet it is supposed to be "strictly professional".

[pygmalion]

Yup, Jana. Up front is definitely the best way to be, I think.

[tango]

The 'up front' part would be great for the student, but, it doesn't help the studio. The appearance of social or romantic 'interest' makes people do things they would otherwise not. i.e. if you have a crush on your dance instructor I'd put money down that you'd be more likely to sign up for more dance lessons than you normally would. The studio's know this and use it to their advantage.

The benefit of a topic like this allows new dances students, who are joining this forum, to understand the concept that because your instructor dances with you, makes eye contact, laughs, constantly says she/he enjoys dancing with you and keeps telling you'd they would love another session this week DOES NOT EQUAL a romantic interest.

Now, there is nothing wrong with having an inter-studio friendship that benefits you and the instructor, even flirting is fun. I find my instructors are more likely to teach me advanced moves and go out of their way to make a showcase performance spectacular if they like you as a customer. I laugh a lot when I'm taking a private lesson and so do they, so we're both having fun and that's the point. Focus on making the dancing lesson fun.

[pygmalion]

Yup, tango. That's why I slyly mentioned teachers intentionally or unintentionally sending mixed messages. I've seen a few cases where teachers have played those cards to keep students buying lessons. Pretty slimy, if you ask me, but it happens. *shrug*

[Jana]

Yes, that is a slimy thing to do. If a student is going to a particular dance studio, with the intention of taking private lessons, they REALLY need to have their eyes and ears open about the entire operation. Most studios will try to get students to buy a ton of lessons. That way they can be sure they will be getting some money from you. The horror stories are out there, no doubt. But not all studios are like that. A good, respectable teacher will understand if a person can't spend thousands of dollars on lessons. What decent person would want to have a student go into debt and bankruptcy just so they can continue dancing? It's buyer beware for sure. And, unfortunately, some studios will even encourage their teachers to get personal with students to encourage them to shell out more money. That really is the lowest ever.

[pygmalion]

Yup, it's slimy, but it happens. And I also think there's a very fine line between cordiality and emotional manipulation. It can't be easy to be the teacher in these situations, either. Teachers are also people. It must be difficult to draw the line sometimes. :?

[anntennis]

It is a business relationship first of all.

[quixotedlm]

... and kisses me on the mouth when my lesson ends, holds my hand longer than usual...



I'm officially jealous. Being a smart shopper, I wouldn't have been carried away by any of this - in which case it would be fun to have as an addl. bonus until it dawns upon the slimy (but hopefully really hot) teacher that such wiles are working.. ;)

[BestTeacher]

Let me share some of my experience as an instructor:

I feel like I have students that have crushes on me. And I think it comes from so much trust that they put in me being their partner, teacher, leader and being so Vulnerable its very normal for feelings to develop.

I usually never go out just like that with students as freinds, only if its like a whole event and we go as a group. But one on on, it only leads to the student eventually leaving the teacher. Why because even if you become just good freinds, during the lessons it may hurt and they will forget that I am still "the teacher", they may not take me as seriously and it will become too hard to criticize and the student may take things too personally.

I have students that I feel like they also get to a point where they get so frustrated with just being a "student"......and so they start almost resenting me... because they pay all of this money for lessons and competitions, and they feel like they just putting money in my pockets and its all about money for me...

And the reality is, I want it to be professional so its always about the teaching and thats all.

And if the student can't accept me not going out with them and being "good friends", and they want to leave because of this, then thats fine... because they come at the end of the day to learn dance and this is what they pay for... many of them forget that this "fun time" for them is actually how we teachers make a living!

So i too encourage them to be balanced...and if someone takes too many lessons i let them know that results arn't everything and it is just a game. So they should enjoy themselves and pay only as much as they don't feel bad about it.

[fascination]

pretty good points...it isn't alway as cut and dried...doesn't always unfold in such an unambiguous way ...isn't always as clear that the teacher is being clear etc....but certainly a common phenomenon for all of the issues you cited and unpleasant for everyone involved...but for people who truly care about their dancing...almost anything can be overcome...I would however say that folks who are serious about their dancing are unlikely to see something they spend a fortune on as "just a game" and probably wouldn't want to hear that from their pro even if they had a crush on said pro...I also think that there are other relationships that develop that deserve a better title than crush and which can also complicate things...certainly though, spending numerous hours with one person on a yearly basis forges bonds whether intentional or not that can both help and complicate things...and the mutual dependence and vulnerability that that can leave both people with can add frustration on both sides to what is already very stressful, particularly if the student has serious goals...not that I know anything about this at all personally ;)

[nucat78]

Yeah, I have to agree completely with Fas on this one.

[nucat78]

By upfront, I mean not just talking about the cost, time commitment expectations, competitions, etc. but also personally with regards to their relationship with their students. If a teacher is adamant that they DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, wish to get personally involved with their students' lives or having a personal relationship with them, then this clearly needs to be spelled out from the beginning.

Point taken, but that can also come across as pretty presumptuous and / or arrogant on the teacher's part. If my initial meeting with a teacher consisted of her saying prices are blah, cancellation policy is blah, and "Oh, don't ever think I want to date you", I'd be inclined to ask her why she thought she was such hot... ummm... "stuff" that I'd want to date her or even work with her.

I could see however the studio posting / publishing a politely worded non-fraternization policy. That could be handed to students within an info packet.

[fascination]

meh...one can state a policy...two people who spend alot of time together are still vulnerable...or just one ofthem...or whatever...we tell people to read the guidelines here...doesn't mean they always get followed, doesn't mean not following them was intentional

[nucat78]

Yeah, but having studio rules takes away the chance of the teacher looking like an arrogant <fill in the blank>. It's impersonal, no presumptions no misinterpretations.

Never meant to imply that the rule would be always followed or that people would not get emotionally involved anyway.

[jennyisdancing]

I thought the question was not about romance anyway, it was about friendships with dance teachers. I am friends with a couple of my teachers and do social things with them. Some other teachers, it's strictly business. I let them take the initiative to indicate if they're open to socializing or not.

[etp777]

I keep things strictly business with my pros, but am friends with a lot of other teachers in the area. Helps keep thing ssimpler for me.

[_malakawa_]

Let me share some of my experience as an instructor:

I feel like I have students that have crushes on me. And I think it comes from so much trust that they put in me being their partner, teacher, leader and being so Vulnerable its very normal for feelings to develop.

I usually never go out just like that with students as freinds, only if its like a whole event and we go as a group. But one on on, it only leads to the student eventually leaving the teacher. Why because even if you become just good freinds, during the lessons it may hurt and they will forget that I am still "the teacher", they may not take me as seriously and it will become too hard to criticize and the student may take things too personally.

I have students that I feel like they also get to a point where they get so frustrated with just being a "student"......and so they start almost resenting me... because they pay all of this money for lessons and competitions, and they feel like they just putting money in my pockets and its all about money for me...

And the reality is, I want it to be professional so its always about the teaching and thats all.

And if the student can't accept me not going out with them and being "good friends", and they want to leave because of this, then thats fine... because they come at the end of the day to learn dance and this is what they pay for... many of them forget that this "fun time" for them is actually how we teachers make a living!

So i too encourage them to be balanced...and if someone takes too many lessons i let them know that results arn't everything and it is just a game. So they should enjoy themselves and pay only as much as they don't feel bad about it.

this is good.

i see some of our students are falling in love with us, teachers.

if you ask anybody who is the person that he/she trust the most, it will be his/her teacher, not mother and father.

because we watch them from the different point of view. we have couple of students that we are going out (movies, dancing), but that's it.

when it comes to your student, you can see his mood when he/she is dancing and how he/she is dancing.

with the advance student that you teach, you spend a lot of time, practicing and traveling on a competitions, and i think it will be hard not to become friends.

there are some limits that you need to respect, and sometimes you need to put yourself in your teacher skin and you can ask your self how will you feel in that kind of situation.

dancing is not just steps, it is much much more. it is a way of life. you learn how to socialize, how to behave ..... ;)

[lcdancesport]

this is good.

i see some of our students are falling in love with us, teachers.

if you ask anybody who is the person that he/she trust the most, it will be his/her teacher, not mother and father.

because we watch them from the different point of view. we have couple of students that we are going out (movies, dancing), but that's it.

when it comes to your student, you can see his mood when he/she is dancing and how he/she is dancing.

with the advance student that you teach, you spend a lot of time, practicing and traveling on a competitions, and i think it will be hard not to become friends.

there are some limits that you need to respect, and sometimes you need to put yourself in your teacher skin and you can ask your self how will you feel in that kind of situation.

dancing is not just steps, it is much much more. it is a way of life. you learn how to socialize, how to behave ..... ;)

Being a newer teacher, I am learning a lot of this.

I've had a couple of students already ask me out, I tell them I don't date students, but put it in a friendly manner.

I've had a random guy show up at a social dance, just to meet me... I was definitely thrown through a loop. He admitted he wouldn't take lessons for his own benefit, it would be to see me. I had to take down a myspace page I made for the studio because of this (that is how he knew me). Too much information, I suppose. I tried being friends with him online, I made it clear to him I'm not looking for that but would be happy to teach him... after he randomly showed up at the studio without telling me.

I went out social dancing/networking one night and an older guy I gave a card to called me up at the studio asking me to be his "dance partner" when he goes out social dancing... even offered to pick me up to go out last weekend. I DON'T KNOW THIS GUY! I declined and told him what we offer at the studio.

I am friends with a number of students at the studio, some are great friendships, but it does come with risks. Many of the students at the studio are friends, which also leads to social outings, potential relationships, and gossip. Oh the gossip. This is due to the studio being fairly new, but things are really starting to take form and more restriction will be implemented. It was just too laid back of an atmosphere, and because of it it was starting to hurt the business and personal lives. There needs to be a line between business/friendships. Money always ends up hurting someone or something, but so does all of the talking.

[skwiggy]

I imagine one benefit of having a 'policy' about not dating students is that if a student asks out the teacher, if the teacher is not interested and can cite a policy, the student doesn't take the rejection personally and no business is lost over hard feelings.

This could also carry over to instances of friendly socialization, if the student just wants to hang out with the teacher and the teacher isn't interested in spending time together outside of the lessons.

[precious12]

At my studio people are friendly and like family to me.... i have been there since the studio opened.... and many people have come and gone, but the studio is always friendly and for people who have been there a while the instructors are friendlier with them, but then again they know them better and for me since i have been there since they opened and have been to all the showcases and such then i have a close relationship with the people in the studio. My instructor is married and like 15 years older than me so there is nothing beyond friendship, and i do agree with the people that say you should let the instructor decide what type of friends you should be, let them decide the relationship and you can tell, but dont do anything you feel uncomfrontable with. Some instructors like to distant themselves and some like to be friends with there students and yes some go beyound that, but in my opinion as far as romance goes between instructors and students.... if they both wish for that relationship and can keep a professional outlook at the studio it is fine, what happens outside the studio is there business.... and if you like a teacher in a romantic way... the best thing is to either switch instructors if it disrupts your learning or just keep it too yourself... especially if you know your instructor has no intention of seeing you in that way.... if both parties see each other in a romantic way, once again i believe it is there choice and as long as they can keep it professional at the studio then it is there choice and you must be ready to accept the good with the bad of this if the relationship goes sour.... will you have to leave the studio... etc and then again it could work out, you just have to understand the good with the bad.

[_malakawa_]

Being a newer teacher, I am learning a lot of this.

I've had a couple of students already ask me out, I tell them I don't date students, but put it in a friendly manner.

I've had a random guy show up at a social dance, just to meet me... I was definitely thrown through a loop. He admitted he wouldn't take lessons for his own benefit, it would be to see me. I had to take down a myspace page I made for the studio because of this (that is how he knew me). Too much information, I suppose. I tried being friends with him online, I made it clear to him I'm not looking for that but would be happy to teach him... after he randomly showed up at the studio without telling me.

I went out social dancing/networking one night and an older guy I gave a card to called me up at the studio asking me to be his "dance partner" when he goes out social dancing... even offered to pick me up to go out last weekend. I DON'T KNOW THIS GUY! I declined and told him what we offer at the studio.

I am friends with a number of students at the studio, some are great friendships, but it does come with risks. Many of the students at the studio are friends, which also leads to social outings, potential relationships, and gossip. Oh the gossip. This is due to the studio being fairly new, but things are really starting to take form and more restriction will be implemented. It was just too laid back of an atmosphere, and because of it it was starting to hurt the business and personal lives. There needs to be a line between business/friendships. Money always ends up hurting someone or something, but so does all of the talking.


send me a link on myspace. :-)

i understand you completely. we have a policy in the studio that we can't date our students.

i think this is ok. my bf told me a story that when he went on a competitions with few of his students, one of them was so jealous that he is dancing with other students that she will wait outside for him to finish.

dancing is joy. and when people are coming for lessons there are many reasons. one of my students told me that he want to meet new people. and that is ok.

my bf has a student whom has a terrible marriage, and she is coming for lessons because she feel happy.

tomorrow i am going shopping with my student, because she want my opinion about the dress that she will wear on a competition.

yes, i can say that i am in one way a friend with my students.