hip motion in merengue vs. salsa

[vey]

Is hip motion in merengue essentially the same as in salsa or is it different :?: :?: :?:

I found that after some practice I finally mastered merengue hip motion :P :P :P

Now I am wondering whether I can apply this newly-acquired knowledge to salsa.
In merengue the amplitude of hip motion seems to be higher, probably because steps are usually smaller and knees not only bend and flex but also move a bit side to side (I was told to touch an imaginary spot at the center with my knees in order to achieve proper hip motion) but I've heard/read somewhere that in salsa one shouldn't do any additional movements with knees except for bending/flexing.

Any ideas/advice :?: :?: :?:

[Dancegal]

I suppose the nature of merengue may allow for more hmm...."naturally induced" :P :P hip motion vs. salsa..............

Salsa hip motion is produced from the knees down when one leg is straight and the other bent - but merengue does work this way too, perhaps with merengue smaller steps are taken and therefore the hip motion might appear more pronounced...

[jenibelle]

I'VE BEEN DYING TO KNOW THIS TOO!!!

I've got the merengue motion down pat; when I do it, it feels and looks fine. For some reason, when I do the salsa step it doesn't "feel" right to me and I know that some little thing is not quite right.

So I asked a friend of mine, an experienced dancer, and he said it is because I am landing on a bent leg and straightening it (thus 'forcing' the hip motion) as opposed to landing on a straight leg with all weight on it, and the other leg bent. So it's just like merengue, only al reves. Is that right?

I'm so confused! :?

Jeni

[SDsalsaguy]

I'VE BEEN DYING TO KNOW THIS TOO!!!

I've got the merengue motion down pat; when I do it, it feels and looks fine. For some reason, when I do the salsa step it doesn't "feel" right to me and I know that some little thing is not quite right.

So I asked a friend of mine, an experienced dancer, and he said it is because I am landing on a bent leg and straightening it (thus 'forcing' the hip motion) as opposed to landing on a straight leg with all weight on it, and the other leg bent. So it's just like merengue, only al reves. Is that right?

I'm so confused! :?

Jeni
Ack! No! Stop! The only situation that I am aware of for "landing" on a straight leg is in several of the International style Latin dances. Salsa is not such a dance and most assuredly involves arriving on a flexed leg. The hip motion of salsa is generated as the hip naturally rolls as the supporting leg is straightened.

Unless I'm missing my guess the problem/confusion/difficulty that some of you are mentioning comes from the lateral nature of your basic merengue actions vs. the more linear nature of your basic salsa actions.

Since the basic merengue step essentially involves lateral weight shifts you are more likely to naturally be stepping onto the inside edge of your supporting foot before straightening your leg and generating the associated hip actions. Because the basic salsa steps of most styles involve forward and backward breaks of some nature it is less natural to step onto the inside edge of the foot and, as a result, the hip motion doesn't seem to flow as naturally. Try to make sure to turn out your feet, especially on any forward steps, and roll your weight around the toe box, from inside to outside as you straighten your leg and your salsa hip actions should start to feel more like your merengue action since they are, essentially, the same type of action.

[Vince A]

Try to make sure to turn out your feet, especially on any forward steps, and roll your weight around the toe box, from inside to outside as you straighten your leg and your salsa hip actions should start to feel more like your merengue action since they are, essentially, the same type of action.
Hiya SD,
Can you take this point that you just wrote and break it down just a little more???
We went salsa dancing this past weekend (my first time), and although I had the dance somewhat OK, it was the hip motion that didn't happen. I think I was trying to "force" the look, and that look "looked like hell."

It may have been that my feet were pointed straight ahead???

Thanks in advance . . .

[Sagitta]

Hiya SD,
Can you take this point that you just wrote and break it [hip motion] down just a little more???

Thanks in advance . . .

I have taken the liberty of reposting SD's quick summary from an old thread. If it doesn't help then we can cry out for more help. :)

Quick version:

Take small steps
Step onto the inside edge of a turned out foot
Use a lot of foot pressure & role it forward around the toebox of your shoe to generate your back step
always arive on a flexed leg and use the push out of it to generate your next step. [Note: this is what actually creates the hip actions in salsa -- not any delibverate hip swaying (the clear mark of a newbie).]
On your back rocks try and do the same (as much as possible) and just think about compressing into the heel on the back rock, not actually stepping onto it (in which case you'd be too back weighted)

Hope that helps.

[Sagitta]

And just in case anyone is interested:

Help for the Hips (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1106&highlight=hip+motion)

Swaying the hip thing (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=777)

Move the hips again (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1251)

Hip Motion : Salsa vs Latin Rhumba (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1180)

[Vince A]

Thanks Virgilio . . . since I'm new at salsa, I'd forgotten that these have been posted at one time!

[Sagitta]

How new to salsa?

And I'm also interested in hearing of your Argentine tango experiences over in the tango forum. I know that you only started taking lessons in these a couple months ago, and it is something I've been considering off and on!! I'm also interested in other people's experiences, as well, of course!

[HothouseSalsero]

I had a few foxtrot lessons with my salsa teacher. More than once she had to say: "Not so much hip motion. This isn't salsa."

(I'm still not proficient in foxtrot. I'd like to take more lessons with the person who taught me salsa, but I'm not sure how available she is these days. Actually, I really just want to make sure that I continue to learn the same style, because I liked it, but I'm not sure which category of foxtrot it is. I had trouble hearing the beat initially. Now when some appropriate Frank Sinatra comes on while I am in the grocery store, it's hard not to do the basic down the aisle.)

[Vince A]

How new to salsa?

And I'm also interested in hearing of your Argentine tango experiences over in the tango forum. I know that you only started taking lessons in these a couple months ago, and it is something I've been considering off and on!! I'm also interested in other people's experiences, as well, of course!
I started in mid-November after seeing SDsalsaguy and my wife salsa dancing . . . and I was jealous . . . of their dancing! I always knew how to do the basics and a few turns . . . though only at a beginners level.

I've had three subsequent classes and one private and I did some salsa dancing this past weekend. There was a guy there - first name was Raphel (didn't get his last name) - and he supposedly competes in salsa. He was extremely good, and I was on the floor in a corner where I could watch and dance trying to even get some of the moves he was doing. I got many of the moves, but his body moved oh, so differently!

AT is not going well . . . they havent' had another class for some time now, and my interests have moved to salsa and the lindy next month, I hope. I really didn't have that burning desire to continue, either!

I'd say, if you're already a salsa dancer, you should be able to grasp AT, and that would put another dance under your belt!

[SDsalsaguy]

Hiya Vince! :D

Do you have enough info on what i meant yet, or do you want me to tyry breaking it down some more/differently?

My main point would be don't try to do anything with your hips while you're on the floor! Some styles have more or less hip action, but it never, ever, never comes from the hips.

Seriously, when I want to dance with a newbie I'll look around and choose a rank beginner with no motion but with timing to their basic ahead of someone swishing their hips around any day of the week. The first is dancing to the music and what they *know* to do. The second mistakes appearance for substance and is “dancing” what they *guess* to do. Not knowing is not an issue…unless, of course, you think you know (ala #2).

[Sagitta]

And I'm also interested in hearing of your Argentine tango experiences over in the tango forum. I know that you only started taking lessons in these a couple months ago, and it is something I've been considering off and on!! I'm also interested in other people's experiences, as well, of course!

AT is not going well . . . they havent' had another class for some time now, and my interests have moved to salsa and the lindy next month, I hope. I really didn't have that burning desire to continue, either!

I'd say, if you're already a salsa dancer, you should be able to grasp AT, and that would put another dance under your belt!

Already a salsa dancer!! :o :shock: :) I don't think I can say that yet. I simply am a rank beginner who tries to move to the music, though I've had a few more lessons than you Vince.

[SDsalsaguy]

I have taken the liberty of reposting SD's quick summary from an old thread. If it doesn't help then we can cry out for more help. :)

Quick version:

Take small steps
Step onto the inside edge of a turned out foot
Use a lot of foot pressure & role it forward around the toebox of your shoe to generate your back step
always arive on a flexed leg and use the push out of it to generate your next step. [Note: this is what actually creates the hip actions in salsa -- not any delibverate hip swaying (the clear mark of a newbie).]
On your back rocks try and do the same (as much as possible) and just think about compressing into the heel on the back rock, not actually stepping onto it (in which case you'd be too back weighted)

Hope that helps.
Thanks for digging up my old comment on this Sagitta! :D

[Vince A]

Hiya Vince! :D

Do you have enough info on what i meant yet, or do you want me to tyry breaking it down some more/differently?

My main point would be don't try to do anything with your hips while you're on the floor! Some styles have more or less hip action, but it never, ever, never comes from the hips.

Seriously, when I want to dance with a newbie I'll look around and choose a rank beginner with no motion but with timing to their basic ahead of someone swishing their hips around any day of the week. The first is dancing to the music and what they *know* to do. The second mistakes appearance for substance and is “dancing” what they *guess* to do. Not knowing is not an issue…unless, of course, you think you know (ala #2).
SD,
I printed out everything that you (and others) have said, including what Sagitta highlighted. Those should hold for a while, or at least until I can get those "trades" with you in March.

I've got the footwork down pretty well (other than the toes pointed out). I only know maybe three moves/patterns. That gets pretty boring after about 30 seconds of dancing. The couple of lessons that I had was SO SLOW. I wanted more . . . telling them I memorized everything that I was shown and that I could practice them at home on our floor. Guess they wanted their $$$ worth out of me, because they didn't show me too much more. If I get the basics, I'm a quick learner after that!

Thanks for the offer to break it down more . . . give me a few days with this stuff and I'll ask you again???

[vey]

Thanks everybody for being so helpful :!:


Since the basic merengue step essentially involves lateral weight shifts you are more likely to naturally be stepping onto the inside edge of your supporting foot before straightening your leg and generating the associated hip actions. Because the basic salsa steps of most styles involve forward and backward breaks of some nature it is less natural to step onto the inside edge of the foot and, as a result, the hip motion doesn't seem to flow as naturally.

SDsalsaguy, I think that's what I was wondering about in particular and you really explained it well. Thanks.

:?: :?: Another related question: it feels like I often do not have enough time to straighten my knee completely and, although, I do bending and flexing but overall I'm "sitting low" because there's always some degree of bending in my knees. Is there a problem :?: :?:

[SDsalsaguy]

SDsalsaguy, I think that's what I was wondering about in particular and you really explained it well. Thanks.
No problem vey, my pleasure.

:?: :?: Another related question: it feels like I often do not have enough time to straighten my knee completely and, although, I do bending and flexing but overall I'm "sitting low" because there's always some degree of bending in my knees. Is there a problem :?: :?:
No problem here at all! If you were talking about ballroom style Rhythm or Latin dances then it'd be a different issue but for salsa there is no need for straightened legs. If I confused you by mentioning a straightening of the legs then I apologize. Just keep in mind that what is important is that it is the straightening action which generates any hip motion – straightened is something else entirely.

[jenibelle]

SDsalsaguy:

Really? I'm confused now! Because that's what I thought I was doing right: landing on a bent leg and using the straightening of the leg to generate hip motion. Then, the people I asked said that it looked as though I were forcing the hip to move and that by the time my foot lands on the ground it should be straight and my other leg bent. I also don't see how it is similar to merengue. For example say you are doing merengue in the same spot then decide to walk forward. So you put your left leg forward as you would on the one-count for the salsa basic. That's not how the salsa step is taken is it? In merengue style? I'm sorry if that question was not worded very well I hope you understand!

Is there some type of slow-motion video clip that illustrates this? Though you guys are great at explaining, i think that in this scenario a picture is worth millions of words. :?

thanks!

Jeni :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

Hiya Jeni. If any such video clips exist someone else will need to point them out as I’m not a video clip kind of guy. ( :shock: :wink: )

As far the hip motion thing, your description of “landing on a bent leg and using the straightening of the leg to generate hip motion,” sounds right to me! Who did you ask?* Do keep in mind, however, that it is possible to execute the action you describe above and still force the hip motion as opposed to letting it come naturally as a bodily rebound to the foot and leg actions being utilized. Might this be the difference?

As far as similarity/difference, both merengue and salsa utilize the dynamic mentioned above – and hence my general equating of the hip motions involved. The difference, to my mind at least, still comes from the difference between lateral and linear movement. If I push to the side as I straighten my leg then that is different then if I am pushing forward or backward when I straighten my leg, no? This is where the differences come from and show up, not from a different dynamic or action in the two dances. Does this make sense?

Just my take…


* This honestly sounds like International style Latin technique to me, so I am curious.

[Sagitta]

I guess I'm the video clip guy. Now I'm kind of busy right now, so I haven't had time to look at the various sites out there to see what clips are the best to illustrate what you want jenibelle, but two options are:

www.bustamove.com (http://www.bustamove.com/cgi-bin/scripts/post_link.pl?p=salsa&d=&b=39209685130)

...for this site you can use the track indicator to slow down the movements...

and

http://www.salsa-merengue.co.uk/

Hope these work. If they don't then I'll repost later when I have time to do some serious research.

[Vin]

In regards to the landing on a straight versus bent leg debate.
I was taught to land on a straight leg and until the last few month's I would do my basic step landing on a straight leg and it still tended to look and feel ok.
I think it may be a good way to start as it really helps people realize that the motion is all about weight shifting and not about any forced hip movement.
The major drawback I saw to landing on a straightleg in my own dancing is that I would tend to move slower and was often playing catch-up on the pause beat.

[jenibelle]

Sagitta: great websites! I'll be sure to analyse them as best i can, thank you very very mucH! :D

SDsalsaguy:

Hmmm who did I ask anyway? I have asked many people (which is why i'm so confused) I was a little frustrated one night because my basic step didn't "feel" quite right no matter what I did. So I asked a dancer who has seen me dance a lot and he said it was because I was trying to force my hip action instead of letting it happen. He told me that the hip action, for example in the forward step, is generated by having the left leg straight with weight on it, and the right leg bent. So it's like merengue only the opposite.

Or rather, just like walking? He told me to watch one girl who has a great style. She straightened her leg, yes, and had the other bent, but it seemed like it wasn't straight before, nor after, but rather in that split second it was straight...i'm sorry that was a bad explanation but it's the best I could do. It's just that the dancers who advised me did not learn Int'l style Latin, they are street dancers who came from central america. The way THEY do it, is the way almost all good salseros I've seen do it...which is really frustrating ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! :evil: :(

Jeni :?

[looyenyeo]

There are two fundamental ways of achieving a hip distortion. I understand from the first post, that the action you're asking about is the one achieved by:

a. deriving leverage from the floor with a straightening leg, while
b. relaxing the lower back muscles over the hip, and
c. letting your torso weight settle downwards.

There are two main forces involved:
1. an upward reaction from the floor, a "thrust" resulting from straightening the leg. This is directly in line with the leg.
2. a gravity induced downward force as the torso settles.

If both of these forces are perfectly aligned with each other, then there would be no hip distortion, just compression.

However, the general structure of the hip joint tends to deflect the upward force laterally away from your body's centreline.

The force from the torso tends to descend in parallel with, and closer to the centreline (as compared with the "leg" force).

This results in a turning moment about the hip joint causing the distortion.

I'm sorry that words are the best I can do in a forum. :oops:

Loo

[Sagitta]

Looyenyeo!! Welcome to the forums. :D We are very happy to have another experienced dance person join us in discussions, and another international person from UK! Since we can only use words, it's great that we have descriptions by different people, sometimes touching different facets of the issue, to help make it "click"!! :D I look forward to seeing more of you in our forums. :)

[SDsalsaguy]

Welcome to the Forums Loo! :D Always great to have another perspective in the mix!

[vey]

welcome looyenyeo :lol: :lol: :lol:


I think you wrote a great describtion of hip motion :!:
It makes perfect sense. Thanks !

[Pacion]

How new to salsa?

And I'm also interested in hearing of your Argentine tango experiences over in the tango forum. I know that you only started taking lessons in these a couple months ago, and it is something I've been considering off and on!! I'm also interested in other people's experiences, as well, of course!
I started in mid-November after seeing SDsalsaguy and my wife salsa dancing . . . and I was jealous . . . of their dancing! I always knew how to do the basics and a few turns . . . though only at a beginners level.


Hi Vince A. I like that - that you were spurred on to improve your salsa after seeing SD and your wife dancing together. :D Whereas some guys/women might have choosen to go in the opposite direction ie. no more salsa for you :shock:

[SDsalsaguy]

If I recall correctly Vince told me that Carolyn (his wife) had only danced salsa a few other times prior to that... let me all tell you all right now, that lady is one fantastic follower! Sure, her styling wasn't particularly "salsaesque," but I could dance with her, not just lead patterns.

[borikensalsero]

If I recall correctly Vince told me that Carolyn (his wife) had only danced salsa a few other times prior to that... let me all tell you all right now, that lady is one fantastic follower! Sure, her styling wasn't particularly "salsaesque," but I could dance with her, not just lead patterns.

Hey Vince, I think SD is trying to steal Carolyn from you. :mrgreen: lol... sorry I just had to.

[SDsalsaguy]

Boriken, you trouble maker you... :nope:

[IsaacAltman]

From the posts I have read, most are confused about hip action. There are 3 countries where we get latin hip action from and are all different. Brazil, Cuba, and Domincan Republic. Merengue is not a Cuban dance but what most are describing here is a cuban hip action.

[MacMoto]

From the posts I have read, most are confused about hip action. There are 3 countries where we get latin hip action from and are all different. Brazil, Cuba, and Domincan Republic. Merengue is not a Cuban dance but what most are describing here is a cuban hip action.

Care to elaborate, Isaac? I do feel merengue hip motion to be different from salsa's (in that it doesn't come as naturally to me as the salsa hip action) but always thought it was simply to do with the difference between the steps of the two dances.

[Sabor]

very difficult to describe hip motion in writing.. one could write lots and not get thru to every one.. and many points will remain vague..

there are many kinds of hip action that is particular to a number of dances and they are different in terms of style and presentation.. yet the differences are minor enough to allow for the mixing of any of these styles together without breaking the frame of dance u are doing.. so it can get very confusing for those who dont use their hips in dance naturally and have to learn..

even if u go out of the latin context and take a look at belly dancing for instance u will find that although its all belly dance, yet the hip action differs fro one region/country to another...

the best course of action here is to find a way to view these styles u are interested in.. either thru the net, dance-tutor videos, attend classes etc.. this is the kind of thing that NEEDS to be observed and then explained.. i think..

The way the hip moves in action is not much different from one style to the next since it is basicall directional related (up,down,side,side,angle,rotate,shake,pump..etc) yet it is the 'how' that makes the difference..

personally, thankfully, that ability came naturally to me and all i need to get a new style is a brief look and its done.. i even get creative with it and make new things.. but i advise those who have to learn it to find a way to see it in action along with a verbal explanation.. cheers.

[IsaacAltman]

In a simple explanation, Dominican action uses primarily one hip and cuban hip action does both sides. How this is done is another story. Mixing hip action in a dance is ok as long as you are just spicing things up and not changing the character of the dance.

[borikensalsero]

In a simple explanation, Dominican action uses primarily one hip and cuban hip action does both sides. How this is done is another story. Mixing hip action in a dance is ok as long as you are just spicing things up and not changing the character of the dance.

Isn't character of the dance dependent on the person, and not the dance? Unless, of course, you are shooting for a specific look within a dance for which to judge by. Which in all leads to what is right/wrong per what each of us think is best. And why a cuban, rican, domincan will have different hip action compared to each other doing mambo, as opposed to looking pretty similar with each belonging group? For the character has been added by the person and not the dance...

Could you go a little more into the difference between one hip vs both sides? Do you mean the achived figure 8 in mambo because of the back and forth motion, and how it isn't driven by the hips but caused by a conjuction of the core and steping? And different in merengue only because the stepping and the core are driven differently?