Hand movement

[Steve]

If you are doing basics in open position, do your hands move? I've heard conflicting opinions from different instructors, so I'm wondering what everyone's take is.

[englezul]

If you are doing basics in open position, do your hands move? I've heard conflicting opinions from different instructors, so I'm wondering what everyone's take is.

I forgot what open position means LOL. Is it when parteners have their hands disconnected or kinda like in the open cross body lead position.

If it's the first one, yeah they move...you can do whatever.

If it's the second one, not so much, they will kind of move from the core of the body.

[saludas]

If you are doing basics in open position, do your hands move? I've heard conflicting opinions from different instructors, so I'm wondering what everyone's take is.

Your hands move as a result of your body moving and your arms reacting to your body. You never move your hands.

[delamusica]

I HATE dancing with guys who flop their hands around in circles while we're doing the basic. Hate it. Hate hate hate. It is completely obnoxious. It is not styling, it is just excess fluff. And it makes it hard to follow, so writing it off as styling is just self-centered and inconsiderate of your partner. Bah.

Just my two cents, and only IMHO, of course. ;)

[Josh]

Pretty much ditto what saludas said. They will move slightly, but it's not a forced movement. In the first year or so probably for most people, the arms will not move in a natural way. Don't sweat it. Just try to keep them relatively still and resist the urge to move them around wildly. If in doubt, keep them still. No noise is better than a blaring loud noise.

[waltzgirl]

I HATE dancing with guys who flop their hands around in circles while we're doing the basic. Hate it. Hate hate hate. It is completely obnoxious. It is not styling, it is just excess fluff. And it makes it hard to follow, so writing it off as styling is just self-centered and inconsiderate of your partner. Bah.

Just my two cents, and only IMHO, of course. ;)

Me, too! But I chalk it up to ballroom training, where we ideally react to every change in the connection. When I dance with someone like that, I feel like I'm going to have a nervous breakdown trying to react to each hand move and then forcing myself not to react and figure out which movement is actually the lead. But I suspect if you danced a lot with people who did that, you'd learn to tell the lead from the "style."

I wonder how follows who dance mostly salsa feel about it.

[noobster]

I wonder how follows who dance mostly salsa feel about it.I think purposely adding hand motion is kind of dorky. It doesn't upset me per se, everyone has their own style and if that is how the guy feels the music I am not going to get all het up about it. But I don't find it adds much to the dance. As others have said, there is some natural arm motion with the dancing body, that is fine.

But I don't mistake it for a lead. Whatever the move, I try to just wait until the lead is perfectly clear. (I got that advice from this forum and it really improved my following!) Sometimes that develops a little later than I would have predicted it might if I were thinking about it, but I've found that it tends to work itself out in the end if I am just patient. The hand circles don't turn into a lead because they don't go anywhere, just around and back. Also your hands are sometimes going in opposite directions, which is also not something that corresponds to a lead (thank goodness) :)

[delamusica]

Me, too! But I chalk it up to ballroom training, where we ideally react to every change in the connection. When I dance with someone like that, I feel like I'm going to have a nervous breakdown trying to react to each hand move and then forcing myself not to react and figure out which movement is actually the lead. But I suspect if you danced a lot with people who did that, you'd learn to tell the lead from the "style."

I wonder how follows who dance mostly salsa feel about it.

Maybe so . . . but in the last couple years, I've done way more salsa than ballroom (that's where I was finding guys to dance with!), and IME from watching the best couples in the club, there's not a lot of extraneous arm flapping. Maybe a little sometimes as a little flare here or there. But not constantly.

Maybe it is still a ballroom bias of mine, but I don't really think so.

[waltzgirl]

Oh, well, I was trying to give the guys I've met who do it the benefit of the doubt. I HATE it!

[delamusica]

There ya go. Let it all out. :)

[Josh]

Oh, well, I was trying to give the guys I've met who do it the benefit of the doubt. I HATE it!

Good for you, and the guys appreciate it I'm sure... :wink: But it's not you, it's them. Movement like that looks silly (IMO) and is confusing (not just my opinion--it's definitely confusing).

[Catarina]

first: I really feel edgy when I'm dancing with an arm-flailer! Like I don't trust that where I'm stepping is where I'm being led to (left turn? right turn? cbl or cbl with a turn?) ! i guess it's a good exercise in having really good reactions...
second: dancing with the loop-de-looper isn't so bad, as IME, they've been pleasant to dance with in general, so it's not a big deal.

i'm grateful that I read somewhere back in the first few days of classes not to try to force either your hips or your arms to move to the music. wait for that to come from proper foot placement and proper weight transfers. anything that happens prior to that looks grotesque :-?

[danzur]

When I dance with Cubans, there is some movement and I don't feel uncomfortable about it. While dancing ballroom style, little pushes/pulls to make sure the follow is stepping where you want them to isn't distracting and actually benefitial.

[Alias]

You may also have a look at this thread:
Women who move their hands too much question (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=9976)
(2005-09-23 → 2005-10-03, 50 posts)

[Brendan]

If you are doing basics in open position, do your hands move? I've heard conflicting opinions from different instructors, so I'm wondering what everyone's take is.

I've seen it quite a lot in the UK but it's getting less common. I think it's more from people who are or who have learnt with someone from South American (possibly Colombian). Once you go to more formally trained teachers though they tend to discourage it.

Brendan

[naturallove]

I HATE dancing with guys who flop their hands around in circles while we're doing the basic. Hate it. Hate hate hate. It is completely obnoxious. It is not styling, it is just excess fluff. And it makes it hard to follow, so writing it off as styling is just self-centered and inconsiderate of your partner. Bah.

Just my two cents, and only IMHO, of course. ;)
I agree with you 100%. That mess drives me bat#$@ bonkers! It's confusing, because I never know when a guy is going to prep me. There's one dancer in particular where I live who is physically uncomfortable to dance with because he moves his hands in a crazy double-dutch and throws his partners all over the floor. As much as I try to dance with everyone (just about) I find myself avoiding him like the plague!

[thespina13]

I can't STAND ridiculous hand waggling. I'm with you ladies there. And yeah, it's noise. White noise. Here's a good illustration. I was dancing with the husband of my dance teacher, and he has a MARVELLOUS frame and style. It feels like being in a top-notch movie theatre where every single sound is registered and means something. Crystal clear. Every movement meant something, I was always in communication with him, he can do anything with me and I feel like I can follow it. I find it way easier to find time and opportunity to easily style, and i feel balanced and relaxed.

And then I dance with this other guy, whose frame constantly breaks, whose arms are always moving without meaning anything, and it fels like there are huge breaks between the clear sound of a movie theatre and vast expanses of confusing and off-putting white noise. Make every motion mean something to your partner. Every thing you do with your hands and any other part of your body should be TELLING your partner something, because your follow is LISTENING. This isn't just a ballroom thing, dela. Nope, this is courtesy and good dancing. When your hands are in contact with your partner they should be communicating direction and intention, and not self-conscious or self-indulgent ladeeda garbage.

Wow. I'm PMSing. I didn't mean for that to sound so passionate.

Oh well.

[Steve]

Thanks for the replies all :) As I said, I have 2 instructors teaching different things. One teaches a (slight) double-dutch motion, nothing too exaggerated. And another wants the hands rock-steady. I can see how too much motion would be 'noisy' and look artificial, but the dead-solid no hand movement feels very unnatural.

Anyway, it's not a huge issue because I don't spend a lot of time doing basics anymore, and if I do it's more likely to be in closed position. But I think I will pay more attention to where the movement is coming from. ie. extension of the core, or just hands moving.

[delamusica]

This isn't just a ballroom thing, dela. Nope, this is courtesy and good dancing. When your hands are in contact with your partner they should be communicating direction and intention, and not self-conscious or self-indulgent ladeeda garbage.


Thanks for the confirmation, there. I always felt like a little bit of a snob when salsa folk would tell me that the flailing was just part of salsa "style," and I would just mentally write them off as wrong (I mean, really - find me a youtube clip of a big-name salsero doing that!). So it's nice to get some validation from a "real" salsera. :)

[waltzgirl]

Yeah, me, too. Though I should have gotten a hint from the last hand-waggler I danced with. He's also the guy who pulled me off time during a turn and proceeded to count aloud for me for the rest of the dance!

[noobster]

Thanks for the confirmation, there. I always felt like a little bit of a snob when salsa folk would tell me that the flailing was just part of salsa "style," and I would just mentally write them off as wrong (I mean, really - find me a youtube clip of a big-name salsero doing that!). So it's nice to get some validation from a "real" salsera. :)
Well, in defense of the hand-circlers (not that I like it, mind you), I think many of them may have been specifically taught this motion.

The first salsa class I ever took (it was years ago and I didn't follow it up) was a beginner course with Thomas Guerrero of Santo Rico (who is some kind of big name I guess now? dunno, I don't follow the culture much). I seem to remember that he specifically told us to do a small, relaxed double-dutch with our forearms while doing the basic. If I am just basic-ing by myself I still do this because it feels more natural than not moving them at all. I think that within reason it is a stylistic issue (as I said it's not my preference, and I could see how big circles might interfere with the lead).

He's also the guy who pulled me off time during a turn and proceeded to count aloud for me for the rest of the dance!I've run into a couple of 'counters' too. It used to irritate me until one of them happened to mention that he was counting for himself! Apparently it helped him keep his timing. It may not necessarily be an indication that he thinks you're the one getting off beat.

[waltzgirl]

In this case it was!

[delamusica]

I seem to remember that he specifically told us to do a small, relaxed double-dutch with our forearms while doing the basic. If I am just basic-ing by myself I still do this because it feels more natural than not moving them at all. I think that within reason it is a stylistic issue (as I said it's not my preference, and I could see how big circles might interfere with the lead).

Well, sure - I can abide little natural ones. I don't mean to sound like I think it should be completely still or anything. But some guys seem to do it forcefully and way too big and way too prominently so that it gets in the way rather than having small, organic arm movements that stem from the motion of the body.

Very different.

[thespina13]

Exactly.

[Sagitta]

hmmm...I see...

[Josh]

And another wants the hands rock-steady. I can see how too much motion would be 'noisy' and look artificial, but the dead-solid no hand movement feels very unnatural.

Anyway, it's not a huge issue because I don't spend a lot of time doing basics anymore, and if I do it's more likely to be in closed position. But I think I will pay more attention to where the movement is coming from. ie. extension of the core, or just hands moving.

Yes, there has to be a balance... (see below). No hand movement at all looks very stiff and not very much like salsa... As for doing basics--don't underestimate their power! Some of the best dancing happens during the basics... I will do several basics in a song, mostly with some syncopated footwork and shines, either apart or in open position. Hardly will I do closed basics unless the music is very soft and calls for a closeness with the partner. Beginner dancers want to get rid of the basics, but the more they progress the more they realize the importance of them and the more they want to do them!

Well, in defense of the hand-circlers (not that I like it, mind you), I think many of them may have been specifically taught this motion.

The first salsa class I ever took (it was years ago and I didn't follow it up) was a beginner course with Thomas Guerrero of Santo Rico (who is some kind of big name I guess now? dunno, I don't follow the culture much). I seem to remember that he specifically told us to do a small, relaxed double-dutch with our forearms while doing the basic. If I am just basic-ing by myself I still do this because it feels more natural than not moving them at all. I think that within reason it is a stylistic issue (as I said it's not my preference, and I could see how big circles might interfere with the lead).


noob, the motion you're speaking about that Thomas taught was likely when completely apart from your partner, not touching at all. When first learning how to move my upper body, Francisco Vazquez taught me some arm motion. At first it felt and looked very robotic... but now it feels (and hopefully looks!) silky smooth... The arms will move slightly in opposition to the rest of the body (so on a men's on1 basic, the R arm moves in front, sort of out and sweeping in slightly, then the L, then the R, on 123, then the opposite LRL on 567). I had to force it at first, but it became very natural.

For open position basics where the partners are connected, the arm motion will be different because of the physical connection. The amount of motion in an apart basic will be greater simply because the arms are completely free... in open position there will be some motion, as has been stated, but it will be less, and like all motions, will hopefully originate from the body.

[englezul]

noob, the motion you're speaking about that Thomas taught was likely when completely apart from your partner

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[noobster]

1337 h4X0rZ d3lux! :D
h3y... 7h|s |s teh s41s4 f0rum... n07 1337 w0r1d... n00b :P :)

[delamusica]

You people are going to make my brain explode.

[Gypsy Wishing]

the opposite of studio dancing is street dancing. While studio dancing will naturally emphasize technique and styling for street dancing take the technique with you, leave most of the styling behind.

[Josh]

the opposite of studio dancing is street dancing. While studio dancing will naturally emphasize technique and styling for street dancing take the technique with you, leave most of the styling behind.

Can you give an example of a "studio styling" to "leave behind"?

[borikensalsero]

The arm double clutch thingy thing in ny city, IMHO, comes from all the way at the top. Some how, some where, some one never understood that arm motion is a by-product of a moving body. Even dancing solo, the arms, all by themselves, sway in little circles. Those that do not know it, specifically teach their students that the arms should move. In their defense, it is a lot easier to show a person to move the arms until eventually they unconsciously feel the arms natural sway, than it is to teach proper locomotion. Too bad some never get it. Still, it is the root of many no-nos salseros are popular for... Shhhh, don't tell them that, they might scream at you. They also want us to believe that it is a “Style” thing, well, it is, is style gone wrong. This is in the same line of thought of teaching the shoulders to move by specifically moving the shoulders. It all starts at the core, if you aren’t doing it from the core, noise will be created that all though we don’t consciously feel it, the core does.

I find it such un-natural look, I've seen many a top dancers in ny city that look very unnatural with their hand sways, and it is because it is forced. It gets worse when the songs is fast, then they really start pumping those arms, and the core is going no where but atop a blender. The sway of their arms fights both the feet and the core. Then, wait till they want to shoulder shimmy, then they start pumping the fist even harder letting the shoulders loose so they can snap, it looks awful, yet it seems to be gospel around here. Many salseros have barked at me for stating that arm and shoulder movement comes from the core.

[Josh]

I find it such un-natural look, I've seen many a top dancers in ny city that look very unnatural with their hand sways, and it is because it is forced. It gets worse when the songs is fast, then they really start pumping those arms, and the core is going no where but atop a blender. The sway of their arms fights both the feet and the core. Then, wait till they want to shoulder shimmy, then they start pumping the fist even harder letting the shoulders loose so they can snap, it looks awful, yet it seems to be gospel around here. Many salseros have barked at me for stating that arm and shoulder movement comes from the core.

Those who bark at you are among the 'elite', I suppose.. lol. Single-minded, one perspective on dancing, usually.

One thing though boriken--should styling or arm motion or shoulder motion always come FIRST from the body, or do we need to force ourselves to try to style or move and then let our bodies make that motion natural? Or should we just wait a while until it comes naturally without trying to urge it on first?

[borikensalsero]

Those who bark at you are among the 'elite', I suppose.. lol. Single-minded, one perspective on dancing, usually.

One thing though boriken--should styling or arm motion or shoulder motion always come FIRST from the body, or do we need to force ourselves to try to style or move and then let our bodies make that motion natural? Or should we just wait a while until it comes naturally without trying to urge it on first?

Yes, the big guns want to woop me. Their defense is that so and so said so, and look how good he is. What is it called, the law of relativity?

As far as from where movement should come and should it be forced? Well, I'm all over the place on this one, Josh. I don't adhere to any "must" rule simply because it is "most" efficient. It might be for one person, but not the way for another to get motion down. Some have to force their body to do it, others get it instantly.

So, this is more of a moment to moment thing for me, I feel that for an advanced dancer, in most cases, the body should come first then progate to the limbs. however, at other times a dancer can get away from the core first, and apply some sort of limb styling to achieve a particular goal. Especially in street salsa that just about anything goes.

However, if a new dancer is having issues understanding or moving from the core, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't try whatever method it takes for them to get motion down, the caviat is that they should first know how the human locomotion works. to me it is not so much about doing it efficiently, as it is as knowing that there is a more efficient method, eventually working towards that goal...

Theorethically speaking, though, no movement should ever be forced. For most dancers, the force stays with them, kind of like Star Wars, and they never learn to flow.