reading your 'grade' in your partner's eyes

[noobster]

Does this happen other places too, or it is an nyc salsa culture thing? I have not seen it in the other cities where I've danced.

I have noticed that a lot of the new partners I dance with start out with a stone-face (or maybe a weak i'm-just-being-polite smile). This only applies to reasonably capable dancers; the ones who are still early in their salsa careers are just happy to have a dance and will give you a big grin no matter what. (That's how I operate too: I am thrilled to be alive and dancing and you are going to get a big and real smile just for being here and asking me!)

But these guys, they are like, honey, I am not going to give you a smile until you show me you deserve it. I feel like it is my mission to make them crack a grin. Much of the time they will 'break' after the first 3-4 patterns and give a big smile that actually hits the eyes. That is like, I win! :D A few of them never lose the stone face. That is a bad grade, it is like a B-. Some others will break the happy-smile early on but then if the dance connection turns out not to be as good as they thought it will dissipate into a kind of confused look. I suspect this means my following is a lot better than my spinning right now. (One guy actually murmured "Perrrfect!" in my ear tonight after one or two easy patterns, but then when I lost my grace on some wacky pretzel/spin combos I got the knitted brow instead, dernit.) I think this is a little lame of them to be so blatant but it is a not-bad way to judge which bits of my dancing need the most improvement. Not like I can't tell already, I know if I mess up the beginning I am going to get a stone-face and kindergarten patterns for the rest of the dance. (I have no problem with simple patterns, they are equally fun, but it is a little grating if the guy is keeping them simple on purpose because he thinks I can't do harder ones vs. if the song calls for slow-and-simple or if he doesn't know a lot of complex ones.)

One guy tonight was really a little over the line, he started with the stone face and then after a minute or so I actually caught the "Hm, not bad!" face (you know the one, raised eyebrows, lips pressed together, corners of mouth slightly downturned). I was like, hmpf, that was way too obvious buddy!! If you didn't expect to have fun why did you ask me to dance? But I did get a happy smile for the rest of the song and a really lovely dance (graceful but interesting with the appropriate spritz of flirtation, one of my top few tonight and I had some really good ones), so I forgave him his loser attitude. :D

I think this happens more at some socials than others. I see it a lot at Choco's; the dancers at Jimmy's and Carlos' seem to be friendlier and less judgemental on the whole, or is it just my own perception?

[Lucretia]

Interesting post....I have seen the same "effect" but have also learnt that some people never smile. No matter how good I am...no matter how much I shine. I think it is a matter of personality.

Get back when I have more time to write....


/luc

[ccc]

Don't take it personally.
Some of us have to concentrate very hard.
I can smile, not step on your feet, or not lead you into another couple.
Pick any two.

[Gypsy Wishing]

For a lot of guys, their game face is their poker face. Add a touch of nervousness and we have two things to overcome.

[noobster]

Don't take it personally.
Some of us have to concentrate very hard.
I can smile, not step on your feet, or not lead you into another couple.
Pick any two.No no, trust me, this is different. I have danced with guys who are concentrating too hard to smile and the difference is totally clear. The concentrators are usually still in the early-learning phase. Sometimes I can get them to smile by just catching their eyes and smiling a lot myself, they will give me a little nervous one at first and then it might get bigger, but it hasn't anything to do with my following skills as they are not usually leading anything I can't follow easily anyway.

The stone-facers are usually pretty experienced dancers, they are definitely reserving judgement.

(But of the choices you listed, not leading me into another couple is tip-top #1! Argh I hate that, but it's not usually beginners who do it. It is reasonably experienced guys who just have no concept of couple-space. :mad:)

[Jamie]

I think this dynamic can and does happen. Though perhaps, it's just as much about the new dancers' sense of insecurity / inability. When they're more developed as a dancer, they'll probably not be as keen to 'make an impression' and will be far more relaxed and connected to the music / themselves, to care much about the face (or approval) of the dance partner.

[atk]

It can also be the leader feeling you out, and trying to figure out what kind of dance it's going to be. He needs to know what he can lead you in, how you follow, etc. Sometimes that happens quickly, other times it takes a whole dance or more.

That still takes a lot of concentration.



Of course, there is the issue you're talking about - I've seen it many times. Someone is either concentrating really hard, being really serious, or just doesn't seem quite interested. And, yeah, you can often tell what kind of mood your partner is in, even if you can't tell why they're in that mood.

Last night, I was dancing with a girl who seemed to be looking all around the room, so I thought I was boring her. So I asked - I don't want to bore her :) She explained to me that she was having a particular difficulty that she was concentrating on, and showed me what it was. I was satisfied that I wasn't boring her, and she seemed to relax just a little more.

[noobster]

It can also be the leader feeling you out, and trying to figure out what kind of dance it's going to be. He needs to know what he can lead you in, how you follow, etc.Yeah, that definitely needs to happen in the first minute or so of a dance with a new partner. Totally fine and normal. But you can still smile while doing this evaluation phase. You don't have to make an 'evaluating' face. :) I am feeling out my partner too, but I'm not 'grading' him. I am just getting used to his individual characteristics as a dancer, as opposed to deciding whether he is worth a smile or not! :o

(In general I am not very focused on the 'level' of the dancer. I am more interested in his body movement, musicality, level of engagement and enjoyment of the dance. Of course things like not yanking my arms and not leading me into other people are important too, but thankfully the majority of leaders don't do those things.)

I think this dynamic can and does happen. Though perhaps, it's just as much about the new dancers' sense of insecurity / inability. When they're more developed as a dancer, they'll probably not be as keen to 'make an impression' and will be far more relaxed and connected to the music / themselves, to care much about the face (or approval) of the dance partner.I don't imagine I am ever going to stop caring about my dance partner's approval. In fact, that is the only person whose opinion matters to me. It's not at all about making an impression. I don't care what anyone watching thinks, but dancing is a two-player game, and it's not fun for me if my partner isn't also having fun.

(and btw, there are a lot of unflattering things that could truthfully be said of me, but 'insecure' is definitely not one of them!! :D)

[alemana]

the scene in nyc is very hierarchical, it's true. people are always trying to get a birds-eye view of the salsaverse and putting everyone on various levels and grades.

one thing that will happen to you the longer you've been around is that 'grading' moment you describe at the beginning of a dance will happen less and less frequently because most leaders will already know you and have danced with you, and therefore they won't need that moment of evaluation. they already know what they're going to get before they even ask you to dance.

gross overgeneralization alert: women are 'pleasers' and in general often seem anxious to get insight into how leaders see them. a big part of the truth is that your dancing and following skills are only part of what you're being evaluated on, and even if you become the best dancer in town there are plenty of leads who will never ask you dance.

i wrote a long post months ago about how one of the top dancers in new york had finally asked me to dance, someone i had been watching and admiring for years. i did well, my friends squealed and clapped, he complimented me, people gathered to watch - the whole nine yards. i passed the test from a dancing perspective, in spades, but he never asked me again and in fact usually looks right past me.

this was a big lesson for me. it's not only about how good a dancer i am.

[noobster]

gross overgeneralization alert: women are 'pleasers' and in general often seem anxious to get insight into how leaders see them. a big part of the truth is that your dancing and following skills are only part of what you're being evaluated on, and even if you become the best dancer in town there are plenty of leads who will never ask you dance.Well, I have definitely noticed that the strength of the 'dance connection' is mostly unrelated to the level of the dancer. Some guys think I'm a great follower, others doubtless think I'm terrible. But it's really because of the specific chemistry between us, not based on some objectively determinable dancing 'level'. (This is another reason why I think the whole business of skill hierarchies is mostly nonsense. Everyone's hierarchy will be different depending on the partner-partner chemistries.)

Btw I agree with you about women in general but I don't really consider myself a 'pleaser.' But like I said, I can't truly enjoy a dance if my partner doesn't. Much of the pleasure is in the connection (physical and mental), which has to come from both sides. E.g., I am a huge flirt on the dance floor (although not elsewhere). If he doesn't flirt back, well, that's a big downer. It's not because I'm afraid I'm not 'good enough,' but because I don't enjoy a conversation in which I'm the only one talking.

[alemana]

however one feels about it, nonsense or no, it is one of the most important drivers of the whole scene. i'm not advocating it or judging it, i'm just sayin - it's a big part of the motor that keeps the whole thing in motion.

[Josh]

No no, trust me, this is different. I have danced with guys who are concentrating too hard to smile and the difference is totally clear. The concentrators are usually still in the early-learning phase. Sometimes I can get them to smile by just catching their eyes and smiling a lot myself, they will give me a little nervous one at first and then it might get bigger, but it hasn't anything to do with my following skills as they are not usually leading anything I can't follow easily anyway.

The stone-facers are usually pretty experienced dancers, they are definitely reserving judgement.

(But of the choices you listed, not leading me into another couple is tip-top #1! Argh I hate that, but it's not usually beginners who do it. It is reasonably experienced guys who just have no concept of couple-space. :mad:)

You're right, it has nothing to do with concentration with these guys. They're dancing for themselves, not for their partners, unfortunately. I would love to dance with you noobster... you sound like such a fun and laid back dance partner. Note: ladies can be the same way as the leaders you describe.

[alemana]

oh absolutely. the funny part about a lot of the "what is my partner THINKING right now, omg" meme is that the answer, on both sides of the coin, is usually something along the lines of "holy crap i hope i don't screw this up."

[Catarina]

oh absolutely. the funny part about a lot of the "what is my partner THINKING right now, omg" meme is that the answer, on both sides of the coin, is usually something along the lines of "holy crap i hope i don't screw this up."

I totally agree! Sometimes I catch myself frowning and I am so surprised by it that I realize I was probably giving off "eeew, I can't believe i'm dancing with you" vibes, when really it's more like, "eeew, i can't believe I'm dancing like this!"

I think most people would agree that smiling is infectious, so to those leads/follows who seem too grumpy/judgmental to be out dancing, I'll just make eye contact with a nice warm smile. If that doesn't work, kick em in the shins.
well, maybe don't kick them...that won't win friends...i'll have to come up with another plan B...

[noobster]

however one feels about it, nonsense or no, it is one of the most important drivers of the whole scene. i'm not advocating it or judging it, i'm just sayin - it's a big part of the motor that keeps the whole thing in motion.Well, I refuse to participate. :P I am launching a one-woman campaign against ratings in salsa. I'll let you know how it goes. ;)

I would love to dance with you noobster... you sound like such a fun and laid back dance partner.Well sugar, come visit NY and maybe it'll happen! (oops, did I just say I only flirted on the dance floor? hehe)

[Josh]

Well sugar, come visit NY and maybe it'll happen! (oops, did I just say I only flirted on the dance floor? hehe)

:raisebro:

[atk]

Yeah, that definitely needs to happen in the first minute or so of a dance with a new partner. Totally fine and normal. But you can still smile while doing this evaluation phase. You don't have to make an 'evaluating' face.

You're right: the leader or follower shouldn't make an 'evaluating' face, but different people have different control over the expression their faces make. I think that, many times, people just don't know they're making faces like that, at all.



:) I am feeling out my partner too, but I'm not 'grading' him. I am just getting used to his individual characteristics as a dancer, as opposed to deciding whether he is worth a smile or not! :o

(In general I am not very focused on the 'level' of the dancer. I am more interested in his body movement, musicality, level of engagement and enjoyment of the dance. Of course things like not yanking my arms and not leading me into other people are important too, but thankfully the majority of leaders don't do those things.)


Seems like we're on exactly the same page, there :)

I don't imagine I am ever going to stop caring about my dance partner's approval. In fact, that is the only person whose opinion matters to me. It's not at all about making an impression. I don't care what anyone watching thinks, but dancing is a two-player game, and it's not fun for me if my partner isn't also having fun.

You're not the only one. When I dance with someone, I'm always interested in them having a good time. If they have a good time, then so do I - half of my fun is my partner's fun. If I bore her, then it's no fun for me.

[atk]

gross overgeneralization alert: women are 'pleasers' and in general often seem anxious to get insight into how leaders see them.

And, while I can't speak for most men, I've had conversations with several who are anxious to get insight into how followers see them *grin*


a big part of the truth is that your dancing and following skills are only part of what you're being evaluated on, and even if you become the best dancer in town there are plenty of leads who will never ask you dance.

When I first read that, I thought to myself, "No, that's not true!" Then I started to think, and you're right. When I dance with someone, her skill level matters, but not too tremendously. Chemistry (as noobster states) is just as important. But, to me, the most important thing is whether my partner trying to enjoy herself, and to share that joy with me.

I make a point of going up to the newest, most out-of-place-feeling people at dances. Then going back to them, later in the night. Some of them have never danced before, some have only had a few lessons, and some are long time dancers who just haven't been around this area for long. Skill just doesn't matter much. It's not terribly important if they're off balance and I have to help them, or if they only know one pattern, or if our timing keeps changing (heck, I'm guilty of that often enough with some music). What matters in these dances is that she's having fun - and that makes it fun for me.

I also make a point of dancing with the people I know reasonably well, and with whome I already have good chemistry. Often times, these people are more advanced than I am, but the goal is still for my partner to enjoy herself. The different skill level that she brings to the table just changes what I need to do for her to enjoy herself.

Of course, I have run into a small number of people that I just can't dance with - they don't seem to want to dance with me - I just don't have a clue what they want. They try to lead when I try to lead, and they try to follow when I decide to just let them lead. It's just not possible to dance with them.

Everyone else is just a different kind of challenge to get to that fun spot :)


So you're right: it's not necessarailly the skill - but what your partner really wants probably depends upon the particular partner.

[Houdinni]

Man, now I'm REALLY afraid to go to NYC! Appart adjusting to the local style, I'll be evaluated with the big E on a social dance floor? Creeps!

But still it's true... That goes for women as well as man. Been there, felt that. Nut usually if you smile the dance's not only more fun as usually goes much better...

[Big10]

Yeah, that definitely needs to happen in the first minute or so of a dance with a new partner. Totally fine and normal. But you can still smile while doing this evaluation phase. You don't have to make an 'evaluating' face. :) I am feeling out my partner too, but I'm not 'grading' him. I am just getting used to his individual characteristics as a dancer, as opposed to deciding whether he is worth a smile or not! :o
I totally agree with all of that!


however one feels about it, nonsense or no, it is one of the most important drivers of the whole scene. i'm not advocating it or judging it, i'm just sayin - it's a big part of the motor that keeps the whole thing in motion.
A "driver" of what aspect of the scene, though? Soulless technical perfection over being competent-yet-having-fun? In my experience, one of the biggest hindrances to getting new people into the scene -- and staying there -- is getting them over the fear that they're being watched and judged on the social dance floor. To give a plug for my city (Houston), I think that we have a healthy pool of above-average social dancers plus several truly excellent dancers, mainly because it's easy for newbies and intermediates to find friendly faces among potential partners -- and those who choose to make themselves excellent can do so from personal drive rather than some process of elimination by an elite clique of dancers who decide whether rising talents are "worthy" enough of being on the dance floor with them.

[noobster]

I wanna dance with you atk!! ;)

[gte692h]

Fascinating thread. I haven't been to NY, I'm not even that great at on1, let alone on2, and now it looks like NY has some really rude, judgemental dancers too.. a friend of mine, incredible on1 dancer, is being treated like complete dirt, now that she is in NY.

Perhaps its the nature of a big city, where you have to street smart and tough, and that percolates onto the dance floor.. and if it is the jungle I envision it to be, then the only way out is to be totally secure, totally brashly confident. I don't think NY, or any big city in the world, is about technique. its just about who is the toughest, and smartest, and the thickest skin.
Are you a NY native, or just moved there ? time to stop being nice, and start being sharp, perhaps ? a relative told me that if you can drive in a big bustling city like bombay or NY, you can survive there no problems. just give yourself a little time.

[Josh]

Well sugar, come visit NY and maybe it'll happen! (oops, did I just say I only flirted on the dance floor? hehe)

I wanna dance with you atk!! ;)

Ok that's it--now I'm jealous. Too many roosters in the henhouse.

:wink:

[sweavo]

As a leader, sometimes if I get the stony face, I will ask "how ya doing?" about half way through the dance. Usually I get a bashful smile in response and it breaks the ice. By subtleties in the reaction you can get a clue as to whether the stony face is due to wishing she was somewhere else, terror at screwing up, or just her favourite 'cool' dancing face.

[noobster]

...a friend of mine, incredible on1 dancer, is being treated like complete dirt, now that she is in NY.
Perhaps its the nature of a big city, where you have to street smart and tough, and that percolates onto the dance floor.. and if it is the jungle I envision it to be, then the only way out is to be totally secure, totally brashly confident...
Are you a NY native, or just moved there ? time to stop being nice, and start being sharp, perhaps ?I was born here and have lived here most of my life. I only started taking salsa lessons for real about a year ago though. (I am a total addict now, I am so annoyed at all those wasted years I could have been salsa-ing!! :D )

But are you suggesting I become a stone-face myself? Completely impossible - I am having too much fun for that. ;) Also I am philosophically opposed to perpetuating the salsa-snobbery cycle (not that I am really in a position to do so yet lol).

Btw there are a lot of very nice and friendly dancers around here. I can only remember one guy who was really outright nasty to me when I was a very new beginner (as opposed to the somewhat-beginner I am now, lol). I wouldn't usually get repeat-asked, but the majority of leaders smiled and tried to get me to relax. I was very intimidated for a long time, it's true - but the intimidation was coming more from the level of dancing I saw everywhere around me rather than from direct personal nastiness.

The stone-face is something different though. I think these guys probably wouldn't have asked me when I didn't know how to dance at all, so that was sort of a self-selection shield. Of course I didn't have the issue of having to get up the nerve to go and ask someone, I could see how that could make everything much more painful.

That is too bad about your friend. There are always a few on-1 dancers floating around the socials, I think life is tough for them though... most are trying to learn on-2 (and getting off-beat in the process, poor things).

Ok that's it--now I'm jealous. Too many roosters in the henhouse.Well, bring your lady. We can mix it up. Salsa for everyone! ;)

[gte692h]

I was born here and have lived here most of my life. I only started taking salsa lessons for real about a year ago though. (I am a total addict now, I am so annoyed at all those wasted years I could have been salsa-ing!! :D )

But are you suggesting I become a stone-face myself? Completely impossible - I am having too much fun for that. ;) Also I am philosophically opposed to perpetuating the salsa-snobbery cycle (not that I am really in a position to do so yet lol).



no, no, i'm suggesting perhaps to to really back your talents to the point where you are laughing at Stoneface's silly looking stone-face. Ask him if he looks like his mom, or his dad. imagine him sitting on the couch, with two little stone-face kids, looking exactly like him. When I meant a 'big-city' mentality, I was envisioning quick thinking, sharp retorts, and you can do it with a sense of humour;)

so you are from NY, the home of some of the world's best dancers and bands, and you started a little late, but now you're in!

[yippee1999]

Yeah, I find the whole pyschology of the dance world/social scene to be really "fascinating". Really I do. Speaking from a NY perspective, people are judged on how they dress (there are certain "looks").... how they carry themselves... do they look confident... which "regulars" do they seem to know... are they hanging with the newbies or with the "stars", etc. I just love to sometimes sit back and just observe. It's sorta like animals in the wild... :--)

Supposedly the NYC scene is tough. I can't really compare, as this is the only place I've ever really danced salsa, save for 2-3 times I danced in Boston. Supposedly NYC also has the highest level of dancers, or one of the highest. If that's the case, I guess in a way it's good that this is where I started, as it automatically makes me reach that much higher, esp. since I happen to be the type that compares myself to others and am always striving to be among the best at my level. As I recall someone else mentioning on another thread here, it'll be interesting, as I continue to improve, for me to then show my skills in other cities/countries, and to see if there, I'm considered a "star". That would be fun (for a change)! Next Spring I plan to go to Tokyo, where I'll be checking out some of the salsa clubs. A friend there told me that more and more people there are taking ON-2 classes. So I am just imagining myself in a Tokyo club with my friend, and when he tells his friends I'm from NY, words spreads, and then all the men there want to try dancing ON-2 with the NY "superstar"! :--)

I do also agree with what some others said directly or indirectly, that sometimes at NYC socials there seems to be too much underlying emphasis on technicality, and a rather limited view of it at that. As I'd read in an article somewhere, it seems ON-2 NYCers are hesitant to take risks, and be more original in their moves/styling, for fear of making themselves the object of silent "criticism". I know that I myself am hesitant to try out my own improvised versions of shines... I guess I'm afraid people will think my moves look "stupid" or something. But another part of me knows that, perhaps when I feel I am seen more as an "advanced" dancer, it will matter less what people think, and that by their thinking of me as advanced, they will subconsiously then think that all my moves are "good moves". In other words, I think it may be human nature that if you see someone that is clearly a beginner doing original stuff, people may think "oh, she has no idea what's she's doing... what was that move she just did?". Whereas if someone is watching a clearly advanced person doing all kinds of unique moves, these same people might think "wow, that was pretty cool... where'd she learn THAT move?" :--)

I know when I'm at socials, my eyes are always drawn to the really good, but more importantly (to me), original type dancers. Nothing excites me more than seeing people (usually women for some reason) who are great dancers, but who also allow their personalities to show, and who aren't afraid to do things that aren't considered "the norm" in ON-2 circles. I'm like "good for THEM!!" And I guess part of me is jealous that they are so confident, and don't care if anybody doesn't think their style is "proper". I hope to be that confident someday!!

[samina]

Some guys think I'm a great follower, others doubtless think I'm terrible. But it's really because of the specific chemistry between us, not based on some objectively determinable dancing 'level'.

Yeah, noobster, I agree with you on this. And also, you're not imagining the "grading" eyes... definitely there among the better dancers.

I mean, as a leader -- if their objective is to truly connect with the lady & allow her to enjoy dancing at her level -- they have to assess the skill level of their partner, so I know that is often going on with the guy. And as I successfully hit their patterns, I can see that in his eye. ("Oh, ok, she can do cross-body with inside turn... she can check... she can double-turn... behind-the-back... blahdeeblah")

It's nice when that happens, and I enjoy it.

When the misfires happen... eh, what can you do. When chemistry sucks, the dancing is not very enjoyable for either party, I think...

I remember one night, though, where the chemistry was so amazing. The guy was WAY beyond my experience level, but such a secure and gentle leader I was able to follow him seemlessly throughout a very long club song... We got into the most amazing groove, just figure after figure nonstop, no basic anywhere to be found, where he could do whateve he wanted with me and I was just along for the ride... Man, when we finished, we raced outside where we could hear each other and both gushe "THAT WAS AMAZING! I WANT YOU NUMBER!" at the same time.

Alas, we've yet never managed to arrange a club visit at the same time. But that was so much fun...

Nothing like divine chemistry when it hits!

Samina :D

[sweavo]

Heh, that reminds me, when I was in New York I scarcely danced with the locals. I didn't want to abandon my lady... but I danced with another out of towner and a middle-aged new yorker we'd got friendly with in that afternoon's class.

The only comment I got in my whole visit was "don't worry, you'll get it"...

They could sell puncture repair kits by the exits.

[noobster]

Yeah, I find the whole pyschology of the dance world/social scene to be really "fascinating". Really I do. Speaking from a NY perspective, people are judged on how they dress (there are certain "looks").... how they carry themselves... do they look confident... which "regulars" do they seem to know... are they hanging with the newbies or with the "stars", etc. I just love to sometimes sit back and just observe. It's sorta like animals in the wild... :--) I think that is so interesting. Some of this stuff goes right over my head. People are being judged on what they wear? I feel like they're mostly wearing jeans, stretchies, comfortable dancewear. A few of the women wear dresses. Nobody's usually dressed up as far as I can see.

And as far as "knowing the regulars"... there are so many regulars! I feel like each venue has its own crowd. Of course a lot of people repeat, but aren't there lots of little groups? I have my own salsa-buddies (mostly leaders with whom I have a good dance-connection - I don't know many followers at all), but I never really notice other people's cliques. I think I am dancing too hard to pay attention. :D

it'll be interesting, as I continue to improve, for me to then show my skills in other cities/countries, and to see if there, I'm considered a "star". That would be fun (for a change)!Try the Copacabana (or other non-on2 venue). That's an easy way to feel like a star. ;)

As I'd read in an article somewhere, it seems ON-2 NYCers are hesitant to take risks, and be more original in their moves/styling, for fear of making themselves the object of silent "criticism". I know that I myself am hesitant to try out my own improvised versions of shines... I guess I'm afraid people will think my moves look "stupid" or something... I think it may be human nature that if you see someone that is clearly a beginner doing original stuff, people may think "oh, she has no idea what's she's doing... what was that move she just did?". Whereas if someone is watching a clearly advanced person doing all kinds of unique moves, these same people might think "wow, that was pretty cool... where'd she learn THAT move?" :--)Well, you know what my advice is. Just let it all hang out. ;) Seriously, how much do you care what other people think? And are they really judging you that hard anyway? They are all busy dancing themselves! :D My favorite people to watch are the ones who look like they are having fun and moving their bodies in a natural way.

Actually I think the thing that draws me to my 'salsa-buddies' is their dancing freedom. I am a huge improviser and the leaders that enjoy, appreciate, and participate in that are the ones who stick around. A dancer who prefers less emphasis on improv would find a different group of friends. Something for everyone, yanno.

I think the salsa world needs some PLUR. Guess I need to revisit my old pre-salsa haunts like Avalon or Crobar to get my PLUR fix.

[noobster]

Heh, that reminds me, when I was in New York I scarcely danced with the locals... The only comment I got in my whole visit was "don't worry, you'll get it"...
They could sell puncture repair kits by the exits.:( Are you more comfortable on-1 than on-2? On-1 dancers get short shrift around here, it's true. As someone on this thread mentioned, even a very capable on-1 dancer could easily get dinged - especially a leader. Sad but true. :(

It's also true that the level of dancing is pretty high, as mentioned. On the other hand there are always lots of beginners and early-intermediates around - there have to be, or the scene would have stagnated long ago.

[sweavo]

Awww. :( Are you more comfortable on-1 than on-2?

Heh, no I pretty much only dance on ET2. I'm actually pretty kick ass, on a local scale. On an international scale I shouldn't even be teaching, but on a local scale I have no problem teaching up to intermediate level and feeding into the classes of the professionals. I have no interest in performing or competing however, and am not very motivated to improve moves-wise since most local followers wouldn't get half the moves anyway. I'm all about the musical interpretation right now, but if I could afford it I'd be over to NYC for a boot camp approach...

[noobster]

Heh, no I pretty much only dance on ET2.It might also be the fact of regional idioms in dance - sort of along the lines of what yippee1999 was saying - so if someone is fluent in the local idiom he/she is seen as a better dancer than someone equally skilled who has a different repertoire of moves.

I guess NYC is a little like salsa boot camp. :) But if you make it through basic training you are hooked!

[Sagitta]

I hate when a follower has the stone face. To some it is what they normally do. If I think it is about assessment I have some fun and put them through the wringer.. (now where is that devilish wicked smiley...)

[sweavo]

It might also be the fact of regional idioms in dance - sort of along the lines of what yippee1999 was saying

Yes, that's what I put it down to... but I'd like to learn the New Yowak "accent"... and that's only gonna happen with weeks of exposure!

[Brendan]

It might also be the fact of regional idioms in dance - sort of along the lines of what yippee1999 was saying - so if someone is fluent in the local idiom he/she is seen as a better dancer than someone equally skilled who has a different repertoire of moves.


I don't know if I would agree with that. I've danced in a number of places (including NY) where I've received complements because the sort of thing I was leading was slightly different to the sort of thing everyone else was leading. Admittedly I didn't dance with any superstars in NY and may well be deluding myself but as long as you lead things so that people can follow then I would have said it was the other way round - you look slightly better if you can provide a bit of variety to the local followers.

Brendan

[samina]

I think the salsa world needs some PLUR. Guess I need to revisit my old pre-salsa haunts like Avalon or Crobar to get my PLUR fix.

Sorry, noobster... never heard the term PLUR before.

What does it mean???

:)
Samina

[noobster]

:google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUR

[samina]

it'll be interesting, as I continue to improve, for me to then show my skills in other cities/countries, and to see if there, I'm considered a "star".

Y'know, this past summer I went to Miami and was excited to check out the salsa scene while there. On a Saturday nite I went to an uber-huge club, the kind with all kinds of rooms for every style, and found my way to the salsa floor.

It was yawnsville. Only one guy on the whole crowded (virtually 100% latino) floor seemed to know anything about how to lead remotely interesting patterns. Boring. Left after an hour, which was painful enuf.

Also, I have many latin friends who say they can "salsa", but what they can really do is have a lot of fun grooving to salsa music. Dancing with them gets boring after 5 minutes.

I'm thinking that, amongst those who are culturally latin, perhaps taking lessons isn't as common because they grow up with the dancing. Meanwhile, us gringas here in NJ are learning shine patterns like mad!

LOL
Samina

[marie]

Well said noobster "let it all hang out". I agree with this at alot of levels. My caveat is that typically I care very much about having a good enjoyable dance with whatever partner. But, if I have a bad dance, I try not to even let it weigh me down at all.

I came to a decision awhile ago that I wanted to be a good dancer. I mean a really great dancer. In the end for me, that means letting myself be totally ripped apart by experts and then listening to their advice. I have two teachers that I love to take privates from because both of them stay on me about the minutia. In fact in the past I switched from teachers who were too easy on me to ones who really made me work. I love it that way. But man, that means I need to protect my ego at the same time that I maintain my humility. Week after week I get criticism and I finally feel like I can take it without feeling like I am a crap dancer. To me it is not so important how good a dancer I am now, it's how good a dancer I am going to be.

The whole point is this: if I am dancing with someone who is going to judge me with that cold hard face, I make a mental note and am not going to ask them again. It's just not fun and I want to have fun. Secondly, I have teachers that I trust. I am going to be humble with them - because I know that they know me and are helping me move forward. As for the grade giving partner, I just can't bring myself to be mad or worse feel bad about myself anymore, it's just not productive for me. We don't know how those partners were trained, who they learned from, a dance could be off because of chemistry, the partner could be a guy that knows lots of fancies but isn't that great on basics, partner could be having an off dance him or herself but blame it on you, the person could just not be a very smiley person and maybe her or she is having a great time anyway, etc. etc. There are just too many variables to assume that 1. the person is judging, and 2. that their judgements are accurate, and 3. even if they are accurate that I won't fix those "mistakes" I am making next week with my teacher, etc. Point is I think we should hold our heads high, let people judge as much as they want, and then work out our own nitty gritty with people we trust who are really motivated to improve us.

Wow, it turns out I have alot to say about this. The more I think about this, that coexistance of self confidence and humility is so important. I respect dancers so much when they are confident in their dancing but also acknowledge that they are in a growing process themselves. Those people give off the best vibe and are the ones that I am attracted to dance with. That giving-out-a-grade vibe is so not attractive.

All that being said, we can't make those people change. Not to harp on this, but the only thing I can change is my own attitude. We are all on a progressive path of improving our dancing. Even if we perceive that our partner is grading us - should we feel bad or lose confidence or even give it a second though that they happened to start the journey a few years before us, or they could afford more lessons, or they just had some good luck in the learning process? No way. that's why I like the quote "just let it all hang out."

[witchphd]

It was yawnsville. Only one guy on the whole crowded (virtually 100% latino) floor seemed to know anything about how to lead remotely interesting patterns. Boring. Left after an hour, which was painful enuf.

Also, I have many latin friends who say they can "salsa", but what they can really do is have a lot of fun grooving to salsa music. Dancing with them gets boring after 5 minutes.


I don't know why I didn't comment on this earlier. Every once in awhile, there's a thread (or several comments within) lamenting the fact that all guys want to do is learn patterns and more patterns and really don't dance to the music. Sentences like those above really don't help the effort.

And on topic, I had one of these dances last night. Well, might have if she actually looked in my direction. When I asked her to dance, I got an expression of resignation that looked more appropriate for someone being escorted to the gallows. Really made me wonder why she just didn't say no in the first place. It would have saved us both the trouble.

[samina]

When I asked her to dance, I got an expression of resignation that looked more appropriate for someone being escorted to the gallows. Really made me wonder why she just didn't say no in the first place. It would have saved us both the trouble.

whatta bummer, witch. that's no fun

Every once in awhile, there's a thread (or several comments within) lamenting the fact that all guys want to do is learn patterns and more patterns and really don't dance to the music. Sentences like those above really don't help the effort.

fwiw, i'm definitely not one of the gripers that men don't dance to the music. maybe that gripe is more common in the nyc on2 scene?

for my part, gimme a man who can *partner* dance, not solo dance while holding my hands. that just bores me to tears & makes me think... wth am i doing on the floor with this guy? he doesn't need me for what he wants to do...