New USA Dance Rulebook (& new Dress Code)

[tbrennen]

Hi All,

The Governing Council met a couple of weeks back and we came up with some BIG rule changes. Almost all of these changes relax rules. Go to http://usabda.org/dancesport_competitors/rules-policies-bylaws/index.cfm or read on...

Summary of Rule changes in the 2007-2008 USA Dance DanceSport Rulebook (effective Jan 1, 2007).

The following table is only a summary of the Rule changes. You are highly encouraged to read the specific rule changes in the Rulebook. NOTE: A lot of Rules have been removed and these deletions are not shown in the Rulebook

The MAIN RuleBook changes:
Pretty much ALL restrictions have been removed for Athletes as far as earning money, doing demonstrations, doing benefits, winning money, etc. The only restrictions remaining are some of those regarding sponsorships and commercial agreements.
(This will bring us in line with most of the other countries in the world and enable our athletes to better compete. We will have, for the first time, to have a set of rules that are simple, explainable, enforcable, and consistent. Please note that this only applies to USA Dance-sanctioned events and the USA Dance definition of Professional may not agree with that of other organizations.)

Pre-Teen I & II competitors at ALL proficiency levels must dance syllabus figures only in USA Dance competitions. (This means that all competitions, USA Dance or NDCA, in the US have this same rule.)

Change the Senior II age category from over 50 years of age to over 45 years of age.
Change the Senior III age category from over 60 years of age to over 55 years of age.
(The Senior II change will bring us in line with the IDSF and these changes will result in a consistent progression of 10 year increments for each Senior category - Senior I 35 & over, Senior II 45 & over, Senior III 55 & over. This will reduce the difference in ages between each age category. )

Senior competitors may only dance two consecutive age categories.

Dress Code changes:
The Dress Code has changed. Most of the changes are only the formatting of the Dress Code. In most cases, the rules have been relaxed somewhat. Please see the Dress Code to see how it applies to you or to your children. There is now a classification called personal jewelry and it is not restricted. However, if you wear a piece of personal jewelry that breaks the spirit and intent of the new Dress Code, the Chairman of Judges may determine that the Dress Code has been broken.

******** "Table" of Rule Changes **********
The way the Rules were is listed followed by the new Rules which start with a '>':

Old
> New


# The Rules until Dec 31, 2006>The Rules as of January 1, 20071 A Regulated Athlete is defined as a professional.
>This definition is removed
2 Definition of Professional (2.1.4 & )
>A Professional is someone who calls themselves one or enters a professional event. (same as before)
3 Elite Athlete is defined as Championship Athlete
who places in top 25% at Nationals.
>This definition and category of Athlete is removed.
4 World Class Athlete
>This definition and athlete classification is removed.
5 World Class events at USA Dance comps (rules for this
are throughout the rulebook)
>This proficiency level is completely removed and
we go back to only the Bronze/Silver/Gold Syllabus,
Novice, and Pre-Champ/Champ levels.
6 Regulated Athletes may not compete in mixed Proficiency events (3.8.1)
>Professionals may not compete in mixed proficiency events. (3.8.1)
7 Eligibility Criteria (4.2)
Changes include:
> Athletes must not have engaged in prohibited activities, as defined in the new Rules, in the prior 12 months. (4.2.2)
8 Prohibited activities for Athletes - Material Gain, Commercial Agreements, Demonstrations, Competitions Prizes, Sponsorships, & Benefits Extensive changes
> Regarding material gain, all restrictions have been removed for Athletes except for Commercial Agreements dealing with advertising and Sponsorships from another Dance Organization or Sponsorships from a business or other commercial enterprise.
4.3, 4.10, 4.11, 4.12, 4.13, 4.14
> All restrictions on demonstrations have been removed.(4.10)
> All restrictions on competition prizes have been removed.(4.11)
> All restrictions on benefits have been removed. (4.13)
> All reporting requirements have been removed. (4.14)
> All restrictions on allowable sources of income
have been removed. (4.14.2)

8a Professionals may not be Athletes (4.3.1.1)
> Professionals may not compete in USA Dance events or in any event requiring USA Dance membership (4.3.1.1)
9 Permitted activities were listed (4.4)
>now defined only as anything not Prohibited or restricted (4.4)
10 Rule Violations only defined for Athletes, Officials, & Organizer. (4.9.1.1)
>Rule Violations for Trainer & Managers added to list. (4.9.1.1)
11 Pre-Teens may dance open choreography in Novice, pre-champ, & Champ events
>Pre-Teens may only dance Bronze, Silver, & Gold syllabus figures in all levels at all competitions. (4.5.3.3)
12 Senior II events are defined as over-50, Senior III events are defined as over-60
>Senior II events are defined as over-45
Senior III events are defined as over-55 (4.5.5.1) 13 Senior I, II, & III competitors may dance all age categories for which they are eligible.
>Senior I, II, & III couples may only dance two
consecutive age categoires in a given style. (4.5.5.3.6)
14 Syllabus events at competitions
>Rules are clarified. (5.2)
15 Event reporting requirements (5.9)
>Rules are brought up to date to account for computer tabulation of marks. List of Athlete information from event to send to National expanded to include membership #. (5.9a, 5.9b)
16 No anti-doping requirements for officials
>Officials are now subject to anti-doping controls (6.1.1)
17 No Ethics code requirements for officials
>Officials now must abide by Codes of Ethics (6.1.2)
18 No penalties for violations by officials
>Officials are now subject to penalties for violations. (6.1.3)
19 Rule violations at competitions (6.2.4)
>Additional rules and instructions for the Chair of Judges for dealing with rule violations at competitions. Simple version: warning on 1st violation, disqualification on 2nd violation. Other rules, too. See 6.2.4
20 Judging rules clean up
>See section 6.3 for details.
21 Clean up rules
>Minor modifications to rules for clean up purposes.


Summary by Turtle Brennen
You can blame him for mistakes above but you should really read the rule changes IN the Rulebook. If you find a mistake, please let me know and I will fix it. (no, I can't change the rules but I can fix the above summary)

[dancesportgirl21]

cool :D Has there been any indication of the NDCA following suit with the rules on amateurs earning money?

[tbrennen]

cool :D Has there been any indication of the NDCA following suit with the rules on amateurs earning money?

No. USA Dance (then USABDA) instituted a new set of rules in 2000 that created the Elite Status and Certified Athlete Status which both allowed amateurs to teach for pay and, in certain cases, earn money for dancing. The NDCA followed suit about a year or two later creating a category of amateur (those who placed in the final at a particular comp in Utah) who could teach for pay. It remains to be seen when, or if, the NDCA does the same this time.

The reality is, however, that neither USA Dance nor the NDCA has been able to enforce the rules regarding dancing for pay (teaching, shows, etc). Part of the reasoning, but not the only reason, for making this change to USA Dance rules is a recognition of this reality.

So, we will need to wait and see what the NDCA does. Actually, I don't think many, if any at all, pros have had their business affected negatively by non-professionals teaching. In one case I know of, the local number of dancers has increased due to a non-professional teaching.

At any rate, at this point competitors will need to be aware of the differences in definition of a Professional between the USA Dance rules and the NDCA rules and act accordingly.

[reb]

Great move! I am impressed that you made this happen - and there is happiness around here as you might expect!

Has there been contact made (for example, official correspondence and request for discussion) to the NDCA so they NDCA can consider moving in-line?

While I'm not getting my hopes up yet about wild enthusiasm and agreement between the two orgs, I ask because there was an apparent disconnect about the number of points you could accumulate - when USA Dance moved from 3 to 5 points, NDCA remained at 3 because - and in letters published on Michael Mead's dance sport comps website, the NDCA rep indicated 'one hand did not know what the other was doing' (or words to that effect).

[saludas]

What is up with 'rolled up sleeves" not allowed for men in Latin? Are you saying that all ment have to have either a long sleeve or a 3/4 (for instance) sleeve, that cannot look "rolled up"? The '"rolled up" look is very fashinable in all walks of life today, and many competitors have costumes with this built in....

[tbrennen]

Has there been contact made (for example, official correspondence and request for discussion) to the NDCA so they NDCA can consider moving in-line?

...the NDCA rep indicated 'one hand did not know what the other was doing' (or words to that effect).

The NDCA has been notified about the rule changes but no discussions have been scheduled about bring the rules together. The last time any type of discussion was attempted to do this was back in around 2001 and I was involved in that. For various reasons, both organizations, at different times, refused to hold those discussions. However, I believe that the climate is now such that it might be possible to start up again.

To my knowledge, the NDCA has never changed their competition rules to be "in-line" with those of USA Dance. The NDCA did create their World Competitor classification as an answer to the USA Dance Elite Athlete program but that is about it.

I sincerely hope that some sort of compromise and accomodation can be made between the two organizations but it remains to be seen how much the people in the two organizations are willing to give up "their" way of doing things.

[tbrennen]

What is up with 'rolled up sleeves" not allowed for men in Latin? Are you saying that all ment have to have either a long sleeve or a 3/4 (for instance) sleeve, that cannot look "rolled up"? The '"rolled up" look is very fashinable in all walks of life today, and many competitors have costumes with this built in....

This is not a change in the rules. The 2006-2007 Rulebook did not allow rolled up sleeves, either. The 2007-2008 Dress Code is not that different from the 2006-2007 one. Another answer is that just because something is fashionable does not necessarily mean that it should be part of the dress code.

Also, if you read the rules, there is no requirement for long or 3/4 length sleeves in the Latin or Rhythm. A short sleeve is also OK. The final determination will depend on the Chair of Judges at that comp. Push the boundaries at your own risk.

[Throwaway Overshare]

While perhaps not the rules everyone would like to see, what is important is that we finally have a rulebook that matches the way things had in fact been working - everyone is now aware of the full range of choices for planning their dancing as hobby, career, or something of both.

[reb]

The NDCA has been notified about the rule changes but no discussions have been scheduled about bring the rules together. The last time any type of discussion was attempted to do this was back in around 2001 and I was involved in that. For various reasons, both organizations, at different times, refused to hold those discussions. However, I believe that the climate is now such that it might be possible to start up again.

To my knowledge, the NDCA has never changed their competition rules to be "in-line" with those of USA Dance. The NDCA did create their World Competitor classification as an answer to the USA Dance Elite Athlete program but that is about it.

I sincerely hope that some sort of compromise and accomodation can be made between the two organizations but it remains to be seen how much the people in the two organizations are willing to give up "their" way of doing things.
Thank you for taking the time to reply and all you are doing to help make this work.

[tbrennen]

Thank you for taking the time to reply and all you are doing to help make this work.

Hey, it's my job but thanks anyway. I'll keep on doing it until Dec 31st, 2006 when my term as DanceSport Delegate runs out and I retire from the position.

[Laura]

Turtle, a lot of us are very very very sad to see you moving on, but we are also assuming that you have recruited an excellent replacement. You've done an amazing (if under-appreciated) job over the years, and I personally thank you immensely for it. Thanks! Hugs! You're great!

[tbrennen]

Thanks, Laura!

[Joe]

What is up with 'rolled up sleeves" not allowed for men in Latin?
That's not a new rule (since the previous round of costume rules changes, anyway).

[saludas]

That's not a new rule (since the previous round of costume rules changes, anyway).

But is is a good rule? Rules can be changed...

[Joe]

IMO, it is a stupid rule.

[dancesportgirl21]

Roll up your sleeves in protest! lol!

But really, I think it's great that USA Dance is finally recognizing that this can only help dancing as a whole. I'm just wondering how quick the NDCA will respond since they are interested in protecting their pros and pro events, even though this can only help everyone to have it out in the open.

But tbrennen, you can't retire! Who's going to notify all of us on DF about these things so quickly??? :D

[tbrennen]

...But tbrennen, you can't retire! Who's going to notify all of us on DF about these things so quickly???

Good question! I'll introduce you to her sometime in the next month. -Turtle

[IlyZislin]

Turtle, a lot of us are very very very sad to see you moving on, but we are also assuming that you have recruited an excellent replacement. You've done an amazing (if under-appreciated) job over the years, and I personally thank you immensely for it. Thanks! Hugs! You're great!

Can't agree more! We'll miss you, Turtle, in your official capacity. Hope you will still be around the dancing world in non-official capacity.

[tbrennen]

Hey all,

This is just a reminder that the new USA Dance rules took effect on January 1, 2007. See the first post on this thread for an overview or go to the USA Dance website. (http://usabda.org/dancesport_competitors/)

If you have questions about the new rules, you can ask me or you can contact someone in the organization.

[Ithink]

So, I don't see this rule anymore but before I have a dress made I thought I'd ask: are nude colored dresses once again allowed? By nude I mean non-see-through nude lycra, fully stoned? For example, Yulia Klinchik wore one this year in the finals of MAC. I assume that she was allowed to wear it because it's no longer prohibitted? Am I right to assume that?

[Borbala_Bunnett]

So, I don't see this rule anymore but before I have a dress made I thought I'd ask: are nude colored dresses once again allowed? By nude I mean non-see-through nude lycra, fully stoned? For example, Yulia Klinchik wore one this year in the finals of MAC. I assume that she was allowed to wear it because it's no longer prohibitted? Am I right to assume that?

Ithink,

I just checked the rule book, and the restriction that dresses cannot be skin color is still in effect.

Not sure what happened at the MAC - wasn't there, cannot comment.

Thanks,

Borbala

[Ithink]

OK, would you say the below dresses are against the rules then? I post it only because they are similar to a design I am considering...

[yanka]

I thought that only the bra/panty area cannot be nude material?

[Meagan]

If you look at the rule book it will show you the areas that must be covered (there is a notation along with it that specifiies not nude fabric) it is basically a bikini...

[Ithink]

That has nothing to do with standard dresses though, does it? If a standard dress has a nude lycra and/or mesh bodice (with opaque lycra underneath of course), is that illegal? If it's really densely stoned on the bodice?

Yulia danced at least 3 rounds at MAC in a dress that has just such a bodice and noone said anything, presumably. I wonder if it was because she's well-known (national finalist) or because a dress such as her's is perfectly allowed...

[yanka]

I can't tell from the picture if it's still nude in the bra area.

I did get hell for wearing a dress much less nude than that at nationals, though; it was a tan (interpreted as nude) bodysuit covered completely in black mesh, which was then completely stoned w/black stones.

My understanding is that if you have see-through material, the thing underneath can't be nude-colored. Even if the material is not see-through, it still can't be nude. But that only applies to the bikini areas...which is why they let me partially "solve" the problem by putting on a pair of black underwear over the nude bodysuit of my costume *sigh*

[Ithink]

Was it a latin dress or a standard one that you wore at Nationals?

[Katarzyna]

http://images116.fotki.com/v712/photos/5/55537/4028776/7-vi.jpg
this shoudl give better idea, It was totally nude, and stoned very lightly. Very stunning dress I helped to sell. It was made to be conservative for BYU, without realizing nude fabric wasnt allowed...

[yanka]

Was it a latin dress or a standard one that you wore at Nationals?

It was latin.

Maybe they just don't invigilate standard dresses as much since those seem more conservative to begin with?

[wyllo]

The rulebook says under both Latin and Standard that competition dresses should be "CnS," which is an abbreviation for "any color except skin color."

There are additional rules regarding transparent or nude colored materials used in the bra and panty lines:

Transparent materials are allowed in the following areas: the waist, shoulders, back to the waist and sleeves. Transparent materials are not
allowed in the panty, the area between the HL and PL, or the breast areas.

I'd love to hear Borbala's thoughts on this, although I imagine that regardless of what opinion any USA Dance official might voice here, local competition officials have the final interpretation of the rules.

[wyllo]

It was latin.

Maybe they just don't invigilate standard dresses as much since those seem more conservative to begin with?

In my experience, the costume invigilators have been much more diligent monitoring syllabus & novice dancers than they have the championship level dancers. I don't know if that's a general policy decision or if the rules are easier to interpret for syllabus?

[ACtenDance]

In my experience, the costume invigilators have been much more diligent monitoring syllabus & novice dancers than they have the championship level dancers. I don't know if that's a general policy decision or if the rules are easier to interpret for syllabus?

I'm guessing it's just a lot easier to tell a syllabus dancer that's wearing a store bought dress with sequins that they can't wear their dress than telling a champ dancer with a $3000 dress that they can't wear it.

[Laura]

I wonder if it was because she's well-known (national finalist) or because a dress such as her's is perfectly allowed...
It might be because there was no one assigned to invigilate costumes, or because the person who was assigned it didn't do a perfect job.

For instance, at USA Dance Nationals last year, the rule prohibiting men from wearing white pants was in effect. Yet the costume Invigilator on Sunday afternoon during the Pre-Championship Latin event let a guy out there in white pants. And when the Chairman of Judges informed the Invigilator that she had let someone out there who had clearly violated a costume rule, the Invigilator said "but I thought that rule was only for Championship-level dancers."

So you never know...it could all just be a big mistake due to unfamiliarity and/or incompetence.

[Laura]

http://images116.fotki.com/v712/photos/5/55537/4028776/7-vi.jpg
this shoudl give better idea, It was totally nude, and stoned very lightly. Very stunning dress I helped to sell. It was made to be conservative for BYU, without realizing nude fabric wasnt allowed...
I've never been a costume Invigilator, and am not any kind of DanceSport rules official within USA Dance, but to me that dress appears to be illegal. But that's just my opinion...I wasn't at the MAC, I don't know if anything was said or done, etc etc.

[avab]

Yulia's dress should have been disallowed at MAC, if this photo is accurate. If it showed up at Nationals it would be disallowed under the current rules, which state that a standard dress cannot be primarily skin-colored (not that it must be opaque). The opaque issue is the bra and panties area.

I did alot of vetting before last year's Nationals by email. That may be why you were unaware of people being stopped at the actual event. However even championship dancers were asked to change if they were inappropriately dressed in the first round. In the latin 5 guys were told to change either their shirt, their pants, or believe it or not, their shoes!

[Laura]

However even championship dancers were asked to change if they were inappropriately dressed in the first round. In the latin 5 guys were told to change either their shirt, their pants, or believe it or not, their shoes!
Yeah, there were LOTS of guys coming out to the Registration Table at 2006 Nationals for safety pins so they could close their Latin shirts to the appropriate place!

[star_gazer]

For instance, at USA Dance Nationals last year, the rule prohibiting men from wearing white pants was in effect. What's the problem with white pants?

[avab]

Nothing inherently; just the rules specify that men wear black or midnight blue pants. Hence, a guy wearing white pants was required to change.

[Katarzyna]

Yulia's dress should have been disallowed at MAC, if this photo is accurate. If it showed up at Nationals it would be disallowed under the current rules, which state that a standard dress cannot be primarily skin-colored (not that it must be opaque). The opaque issue is the bra and panties area.

It wont show up at nationals as it's currently worn by someone in a pro am division.. It was a beautiful dress made to measure to be very covered up and conservative, it's a shame that this is not allowed in the US currently, as this is a very popular style of bodice everywhere else.. But, what happens if someone spends 3K to make a dream gown, (which for most people would appear very conservative) and is told they can't wear it, like someone pointed out earlier.. I seriously have an issue with that rule. So many people don't know because they dont' spend all day following everchanging rules and politics.

[Laura]

What's the problem with white pants?

It's not allowed under IDSF rules for men to wear pants in any color other than black or midnight blue (navy, too, even though these are technically different colors), and USA Dance adopted that rule.

I don't know what's "wrong" with it, I'm just reporting that it is against the Dress Code rules.

I suspect it has something to do with the IDSF Rules Committee's ideas/ideals of "formality." Like, black or midnight (navy) pants for men are "formal," whereas white or red or other colors aren't.

[Laura]

IBut, what happens if someone spends 3K to make a dream gown, (which for most people would appear very conservative) and is told they can't wear it, like someone pointed out earlier.. I seriously have an issue with that rule.
If someone is about to spend 3k on a dress, they'd better look at the rule book to make sure it's legal, or save the dress for NDCA and other non-ISDF comps. Isn't Blackpool actually a non-IDSF comp?

So many people don't know because they dont' spend all day following everchanging rules and politics.
Just like with traffic tickets, doping violations, and tax audits, ignorance is not taken as an excuse here. Although, I know that there has been approriate leniency with first-time violators.

Remember someone got placed last (or something like that) in the World 10-Dance Final because of her dress? It was on TV some time last year when PBS showed the IDSF World 10-Dance.

Anyway, why not lobby the IDSF to change the rules...seems like the guys could try to get the pant color thing changed, and the ladies could work on the nude fabrics thing.

[Katarzyna]

I know it is the way it is, I just don't like this rule. Especially for standard. What can I do.. Thankfully I didn't buy a gown like that recently, it's hard to remember ALL the rules all the time...

I dont' think Blackpool is IDSF.. not sure though, it doesn't matter to me so much who sanctions what. I care about the competition.

[wooh]

Remember someone got placed last (or something like that) in the World 10-Dance Final because of her dress? It was on TV some time last year when PBS showed the IDSF World 10-Dance.
I was actually thinking of that very thing! The funny thing was, it wasn't like it was actually supposed to look nude, it was a gorgeous champagne satin, that was meant to look like satin, not flesh. But they got her because it was supposedly "flesh" colored.

[Kitty]

If someone is about to spend 3k on a dress, they'd better look at the rule book to make sure it's legal, or save the dress for NDCA and other non-ISDF comps. Isn't Blackpool actually a non-IDSF comp?

Just like with traffic tickets, doping violations, and tax audits, ignorance is not taken as an excuse here. Although, I know that there has been approriate leniency with first-time violators.


have to agree with Laura here. just because you spent 3k on an illegal dress doesn't mean that should make it legal. It just makes you irresponsible for not looking it up. There are plenty of strict dress rules in Europe too such as no stones for Junior 1 or low heels for little girls or the pants color thing... while some rules we might disagree with and lobby to change them, we still do know they are there and have to follow if we want to compete at sanctined comps.

It also makes USA Dance responsible for not making such info about rules easily available to those who don't read Dance-Forums or don't have access to internet. Maybe a paper-based rulebook should be sent out to every registered competitor when they renew their application? and supplied to all studios that train competitors?

on the other hand as I understand there is no problem with this dress if the bra has non-nude fabric on it, because the rule emphasizes bra and panty areas should be covered with something non-nude. I don't wsee mush wrong with having nude fabric on the back. People have open back dresses all the time...

[NielsenE]

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but it should looks like if you replaced the nude fabric in that dress with no fabric, the bottom of the open back would be indecent.... If the nude fabric became colors fabric about 3-5 inches higher there'd be less of an issue?

[Kitty]

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but it should looks like if you replaced the nude fabric in that dress with no fabric, the bottom of the open back would be indecent.... If the nude fabric became colors fabric about 3-5 inches higher there'd be less of an issue?

ok, I can see that. didnt' even notice at first.
what if there is dense lace over than part of body (but with nude showing a tiny bit in between or pattern). Is that still not allowed?

[Egoist]

What's the problem with white pants?

Maybe the junk is more prominent with white pants.

[wooh]

Maybe the junk is more prominent with white pants.

:uplaugh:

[star_gazer]

Maybe the junk is more prominent with white pants.
well, I imagine that these rules evolve to manage problem situations.

[Katarzyna]

I wonder what is the no nude bodice rule based on? Someone just told me IDSF lifted this rule 6 months ago.. Just curious.. Don't know if this information is verified either?

[Kitty]

another questions:

does the black dress in the link below look illegal for USA Dance?
http://dancesportinfo.net/DisplayGallery.aspx?coupleId=638

[Borbala_Bunnett]

I don't believe so. The arms and the top is nude, but there is a bra, and there is a back to the dress. It pretty much looks like a proper dress, with the open skin covered in nude material.

As per USA Dance rules, there CAN be nude fabric on the dress, but 1.) it cannot be the primary color / fabric, and 2.) intimacy spots have to be covered appropriately.

NDCA Nationals rules in Utah don't allow any nude fabric at all anywhere on the dress, even if it's just the arm. There can be sheer fabric though, as long as it's above the breast / x inches above the sternum.

[yanka]

hmmm...I would've thought the top is too nude (since the bra appears to be nude-colored with pretty sparse lace).

But I've also adapted a better-safe-than-sorry attitude towards the costume rules (aside from the aforementioned incident at nationals, I've had some costume issues at other comps too).

[Borbala_Bunnett]

The black / lace covers the breast area, though if there was no nude fabric you could probably easily argue that it's a very low cut dress. However, even without the nude it would cover the privacy areas, that's why I'd say it's OK.

[Joe]

How does a bloke get invigilated for his shoes? The IDSF rules say there are no shoe restrictions, aside from having to wear socks...

[Katarzyna]

another questions:

does the black dress in the link below look illegal for USA Dance?
http://dancesportinfo.net/DisplayGallery.aspx?coupleId=638
Thank you kitty, I am still thinking about it

[yanka]

The black / lace covers the breast area, though if there was no nude fabric you could probably easily argue that it's a very low cut dress. However, even without the nude it would cover the privacy areas, that's why I'd say it's OK.

My only fear is that not all "costume invigilators" have the same understanding of the rules and how they apply in a given situation. We've already seen examples of people not really knowing what they're doing, so I, personally, would be scared to get a dress like that for fear of having someone other than you interpret the rules a bit differently...

[Ithink]

It seems to me, from reading the IDSF Dress Rules here, http://www.idsf.net/dancesport_competitions/idsf_dress_regulations_2006.doc, the dress can be nude if there is a decoration on it. In particular it defines the Intimacy area as this: "Intimacy area (IA) – body zones, which have to be covered by non transparent materials or transparent materials lined with non transparent materials. If skin colour is used, it has to be SwD [skin with decoration]." Decoration is defined as lace, rhinestones, sequins, beads, etc. So to me, that means the dress can be nude as long it's rhinestoned, no? It also seems to be saying that if you have opaque nude lycra under transparent material, net or whatnot (nude or otherwise), it's perfectly legal. I am not sure then what the purpose of the USA Dance rules that prohibit nude dresses is if IDSF does not seem to prohibit them any longer...

[yanka]

interesting...so my latin dress sounds legal after all (since it both had non-nude mesh and stones over the nude material)...

Which brings me back to the point of different invigilators interpreting the rules differently.

[Ithink]

Well, it's legal based on IDSF but doesn't seem to be legal under USA Dance from what Borbala is saying. My question is, why the difference - seems weird!

[Laura]

I am not sure then what the purpose of the USA Dance rules that prohibit nude dresses is if IDSF does not seem to prohibit them any longer...
I'm guessing it might be a timing issue? After all, it's not like all the organizations sit down the same week and update their rules together.

I find the IDSF's "Good Taste Rule" to be interesting:
Good Taste Rule
Any use of material or colour or construction or other contrivance that gives the appearance of non compliance with these dress rules, even though there is no breach of the literal wording of these rules, will be a breach of these rules if so determined by the Chairman of Adjudicators.
I'm thinking that this means that if you did something like use opaque skin-colored fabric to simulate a two-piece dress for Standard, the Chairman could ask you to change.

[Borbala_Bunnett]

My only fear is that not all "costume invigilators" have the same understanding of the rules and how they apply in a given situation. We've already seen examples of people not really knowing what they're doing, so I, personally, would be scared to get a dress like that for fear of having someone other than you interpret the rules a bit differently...

Exactly to make sure that there is consistency in understanding and applying the rules, USA Dance is working toward having trained USA Dance officials at each Regionals and the National championships. The individual is proposed to be non-competitor, and will have to gone through training and shadowing an experienced observer to ensure that there is consistent application of the rules.

[wyllo]

Exactly to make sure that there is consistency in understanding and applying the rules, USA Dance is working toward having trained USA Dance officials at each Regionals and the National championships. The individual is proposed to be non-competitor, and will have to gone through training and shadowing an experienced observer to ensure that there is consistent application of the rules.

On the one hand, that's a good thing. On the other, I've heard competition organizers complain that it's one more expense they have to work into their budget (airfare, accomodations, etc.). Plus, you're still going to get uneven enforcement at sanctioned competitions that are not a regional qualifying event.

It might be more effective and certainly cheaper to develop a handbook with multiple examples of what is/isn't acceptable. And if it were posted online everyone could access it.

[Another Elizabeth]

It might also be helpful (and potentially more cost-effective) to have someone trained in the rules who can prescreen dresses before the day of competition. Right now, going in and saying, "But Borbala thought it was OK!" wouldn't get you anywhere with a costume invigilator, but if there was some way that you could get a letter from a local, trained, USA Dance official that a particular dress was legal, it could reduce stress quite a bit. You'd probably want a picture attached to the letter, so the invigilator could see that it was the same dress and hadn't been altered after being vetted.

[Kitty]

that sounds way too involved

[star_gazer]

And I thought the rules in Utah were confusing....

[Borbala_Bunnett]

The National USA Dance organization will absorbe the travel and lodging expenses of the USA Dance Officials, so the only expense the organizers will need to foot is the extra mouth to feed throughout the day. It is proposed to be a volunteer position.

As for the other thoughts - to have a rule book with photos and detailed descriptions in plan English; as well as the possibility to get a dress 'pre-approved', are great. I will take them to the Council and will propose that they get incorporated into the process going forward.

Please keep the suggestions coming, and thanks for the input!

Borbala

[yanka]

that sounds way too involved

yes, but could be worth it if you're considering spending a lot of money on a dress and want to be sure you can actually wear it. I don't think the suggestion is to make everyone have their letters of approval before the comp; I think AE is simply proposing a mechanism for people who do care ahead of time to get approval and relieve stress.

[Kitty]

yes, but could be worth it if you're considering spending a lot of money on a dress and want to be sure you can actually wear it. I don't think the suggestion is to make everyone have their letters of approval before the comp; I think AE is simply proposing a mechanism for people who do care ahead of time to get approval and relieve stress.

well, this has nothign to do with the people who are about to invest money
cause the approval would take place after the dress has been already made

[White Chacha]

Because we're prudes in the US?

[Another Elizabeth]

that sounds way too involved

Then you wouldn't have to do it.

I'm by no means saying that everyone needs to get their dresses approved - just that there would be a mechanism for making sure a dress is OK, and even more so, for getting a final decision on a dress so you don't get blindsided when two comps interpret the rules differently.

[Throwaway Overshare]

Sanctioning rules already require an observer at competitions.

But I want to see what happens with "flesh tone" areas on a dress worn by a lady with a natural mocha skin tone, or the reverse, dark areas on a lady with very light skin. Could it be that the legality of a dress depends on the race of the dancer? That doesn't seem right, but if "flesh" is a color independent of the wearer, then the rule is pointless.

[yanka]

Sanctioning rules already require an observer at competitions.

But I want to see what happens with "flesh tone" areas on a dress worn by a lady with a natural mocha skin tone, or the reverse, dark areas on a lady with very light skin. Could it be that the legality of a dress depends on the race of the dancer? That doesn't seem right, but if "flesh" is a color independent of the wearer, then the rule is pointless.

I don't think there's a difference, especially once the tanning process is taken into consideration and the range of skin color is drastically reduced. I'm very white and the color of the fabric underlying the mesh on my [supposedly illegal, though apparently legal] costume was a very dark tan (really, a brown as far as I'm concerned). I think it's not so much the color itself as its purpose - if it's meant to look like a continuation of the dancer's skin or not (regardless of how well it accomplishes the task).

[Borbala_Bunnett]

Sanctioning rules already require an observer at competitions..

Yes, but there is no requirement for them to be trained, hence the varying interpretations of the rules.

But I want to see what happens with "flesh tone" areas on a dress worn by a lady with a natural mocha skin tone, or the reverse, dark areas on a lady with very light skin. Could it be that the legality of a dress depends on the race of the dancer? That doesn't seem right, but if "flesh" is a color independent of the wearer, then the rule is pointless.

I agree with Yanka - it is more about the intent of the fabric, not necessarily the shade. If you look at a dress from across the ballroom and looks like the person is not wearing anything - that's likely not appropriate. Similarly, a dress that appears nude on a very dark skinned person may appear as brown on someone who is fair. That's where Laura's quote regarding the intent of the regulation comes in (from the IDSF) - the intent of this regulation is for dancers to be appropriately clad (or something close to that).

[tbrennen]

The "flesh" color is the color of the wearer's skin. The primary goal is, as another put it, appropriate dress for the activity, i.e. competitive dance in front of a wide spectrum of viewpoints.

[Ithink]

My contention is when you make rules based on what's "appropriate" it becomes completely ridiculous - there is a reason the Supreme Court litmus test of pornography, "I know it when I see it," is widely ridiculed. I cannot imagine how a standard dress that covers the dancer's body up to the ankles can be considered inappropriate if the top happens to be made out of tan material with completely opaque tan lycra bodysuit underneath and tons of rhinestones over it... And how it can be considered appropriate when a dancer competes at an NDCA competition v. a USA Dance one. How exactly does the appropriateness of the dress change from one comp to another when the "spectrum of viewpoints" at each comp might (and usually is) very much the same?

When a standard is so subjective as to be based on appropriateness, it simply invites these types of very valid critiques...

[Laura]

I agree, a lot of it is arbitrary, but I also understand where the rules come from. It is impossible to legislate good taste, but that is partially what the IDSF is trying to do so as to keep dancesport more "sport" focussed rather than "looking like a Las Vegas show." Hence the rules about how far a man's shirt can be opened in Latin, and that ladies can't have tanga-style (i.e. thong) leotard bottoms under their dresses.

Personally, I think the nude rule should be rewritten to be explicit and say that if the flesh-matching fabric were removed and body parts that should not be exposed are exposed, then the costume is not legal. That would cover the mint green gown that started this conversation -- without the nude fabric, the skirt would sit low enough that the lady's butt crack would be showing and my personal standards of taste think that butt cleavage is inappropriate for a dance competition.

Another option would be to simply outlaw all flesh-matching fabric, but that would really be a big problem and put a damper on costume design and construction.

Seriously, if you want something done about this, write a letter directly to USA Dance and the IDSF and complain. Talking about it on the boards here is fun and all, but no one will do anything about it unless enough actual directed requests come in to the people who have the power to do something about it. Complain to Esther Freeman, Ken Richards, your region's Regional Vice-President, your DanceSport Council rep, the officers listed on the IDSF web site, and so on.

[Ithink]

The problem is that, reading their rules, I don't think IDSF really outlaws this anymore... I am not sure why USA Dance still does.

And anyways, good idea: I will write such a letter. Nothing will probably happen unless a few other people write one too but at least I will have said my peace:)

[NielsenE]

The problem is that, reading their rules, I don't think IDSF really outlaws this anymore... I am not sure why USA Dance still does.


Probably because USA Dance hasn't had enough meetings since IDSF updated their rules to go through the usual motion practice to change their (USA Dance's) rules. I'm not sure about their by-laws, but most organizations tend to require 2-3 meetings unless its deemed an emergency. Typically one meeting to get the item on the ballot/agenda for the next meeting, officially, and to give people a chance to weigh in before any voting takes place. And its not at all uncommon for something to be tabled/postponed at the next meeting pending more research/compromise...

[SyrU_dancer]

Because we're prudes in the US?

We really are.

[bjp22tango]

I don't think this rule necessarily has anything to do with being prudish.

If you spend the entire time someone is dancing looking at them trying to figure out if they are nude under a dress or not, how much time are you going to spend looking at their dancing?

Something that looks "conservative" up close under one light looks entirely different from a distance under kleig lighting.

Take the white pants for instance. In harsh enough light, anything underneath will show - 'junk', body hair, speedo lines, whatever.

Dancers are usually trying to tell a story with their dancing. What they wear often alters the storyline to their detriment.

[saludas]

I don't think this rule necessarily has anything to do with being prudish.

If you spend the entire time someone is dancing looking at them trying to figure out if they are nude under a dress or not, how much time are you going to spend looking at their dancing?


A judge that is looking for nudity is not a good judge - pruriency goes hand in hand with repression and prudishness. Female or male skin is beautiful - only prudes think that it is not (or has to be regulated - usually to 'prevent' some transgression of beliefs)...

[Joe]

Yes, but some of these costumes are like a train wreck...judges are only human.

[yanka]

Yes, but some of these costumes are like a train wreck...judges are only human.

true. sometimes, no matter how much you really don't want to look, if it's bad enough, you can't help it.

[Egoist]

true. sometimes, no matter how much you really don't want to look, if it's bad enough, you can't help it.

Where do you draw the line? There are always distractions! Platinum blonde hair is distracting. Will you advocate for a rule to ban it?

In the end we have to live with what the judges "judge". Let them judge, then.

Furthermore, if a couple is doing/wearing something that is detrimental to their judgement, STBT! What's equal is fair.

[FeetwithaBeat]

Why not just have USA Dance contract with two or three designers to make "reugulation approved costumes" for both men and women. If competitors don't buy their costumes from these design houses then they aren't allowed to compete - period. Seems like a good thing, USA Dance can get a kick back from the designers, no having to regulate because the costumes are regulation designs, make them universal, a uniform if you will. This is a sport right?

[latingal]

Why not just have USA Dance contract with two or three designers to make "reugulation approved costumes" for both men and women. If competitors don't buy their costumes from these design houses then they aren't allowed to compete - period. Seems like a good thing, USA Dance can get a kick back from the designers, no having to regulate because the costumes are regulation designs, make them universal, a uniform if you will. This is a sport right?

Oligopoly? Kick backs? Oy vey....

[star_gazer]

I am totally in favor of the costume regulations for pre-teens and juniors. Primarily because there is no limit what some parents will subject/allow their kids to do to get an edge on the competition. But...I don't think there should be ANY rules on what adults can wear. Except maybe those for safety and to save the floor. Good taste can't be regulated and its going to be subjective.

[Ithink]

I am totally in favor of the costume regulations for pre-teens and juniors. Primarily because there is no limit what some parents will subject/allow their kids to do to get an edge on the competition. But...I don't think there should be ANY rules on what adults can wear. Except maybe those for safety and to save the floor. Good taste can't be regulated and its going to be subjective.

I totally agree! Well said:)

[Laura]

I am totally in favor of the costume regulations for pre-teens and juniors. Primarily because there is no limit what some parents will subject/allow their kids to do to get an edge on the competition. But...I don't think there should be ANY rules on what adults can wear. Except maybe those for safety and to save the floor. Good taste can't be regulated and its going to be subjective.
This is definitely the most realistic solution I've heard of. I'm fine with snarking with my friends about horrifying adult costumes, and "not having to enforce" anything for adults will certainly save a lot of effort, volunteer-hours, and anguish.... :)

[wooh]

This is definitely the most realistic solution I've heard of. I'm fine with snarking with my friends about horrifying adult costumes, and "not having to enforce" anything for adults will certainly save a lot of effort, volunteer-hours, and anguish.... :)

The saving effort, volunteer-hours and anguish are all good reasons to go in that direction. Of course, as long as ballroom/dancesport is under the rule of "wanting to be in the Olympics," USA Dance will have to comply with whatever stupid rules that throws at it.:mad:

[star_gazer]

I found a very interesting article in “Quest for the Olympic Gold” on how athletes finance their sport. Its about amateur speedskating and its at: rightonthemoney.org/shows/402_olympic/intvw_cushman.html

Interesting to note: Generally parents are footing the bill until the kids are competing at the world championship level. Then the Olympic committees start kicking in. In the case of the speedskater in this article, they figured she was paying $5000 to $6000 out-of -pocket for skates, travel and entry fees. Then US Speedskating was paying $20,000 to $30,000 a year for her to access a sports psychologist, massage therapist, chiropractor, medical care, coaching, ice fees and weight-room fees. They figured that between costs for living, costs for actual skating, the services provided to the athlete and all the traveling, it was between $40 and $50,000 per skater. Contributing to meeting the expenses…about one-third by the US Olympic committee and over one-third by US Speedskating.

Even more interesting to note: At the Olympic level, the speedskaters have access to sports trainers that do massage therapy on the athletes twice a week, a sports psychologist that they use “so that an athlete can go to the line with the right focus and get the very best results possible,” blood draws done every month to “check that the athletes are not over-training, that they're not coming down with an infection, check that their iron levels are high”, a doctor who travels with the team, a nutritionist who sits down with the athletes at least once a month, a food service “that comes in and for the top 10 to 15 athletes actually caters meals for them four times a week,” bone scans to make sure that the training is not going to cause them problems later, heart-rate monitors that record their heart rate for every workout, lactate analyzers so that they're not training too low and they're not training too high and they have a video person who takes a video of them at least once a.

NOW…if our top amateur dancesport athletes, maybe just those who make the USA Dance championship finals, could get something like this…I think they would be willing to accept ALMOST any dress code.

[Joe]

Too bad it ain't gonna happen...

[star_gazer]

Too bad it ain't gonna happen...Yep, too bad.

[yanka]

Things I just noticed in the rulebook:

1. Men’s Top Opening Point (TOP) – point, to which top or shirt can be opened -> Center of the belt buckle or center of the trousers top line [this is much lower than the previous "breastbone" version...also explains why I saw so many low cut shirts in open]

2. Skin color (S) –equal to the color of the dancer’s skin during the competition (with tan) [haven't seen this definition before; interesting clarification...]

[Laura]

this is much lower than the previous "breastbone" version...also explains why I saw so many low cut shirts in open
Thanks for the update. I'm going to re-read them all before SW Regionals so i am up-to-date. Anyway, now I won't have to give away a zillion black safety pins to "fix" all the men's shirts. :)

[reb]

Thanks for the update. I'm going to re-read them all before SW Regionals so i am up-to-date. Anyway, now I won't have to give away a zillion black safety pins to "fix" all the men's shirts. :)
Laura, aren't you going to have a ruler in hand just to make sure?;)

[Laura]

Only for Adult DanceSport Competitors, reb.

[reb]

Time to enter rhythm and latin!:D

[kimV6]

here's the real question: since the rules say that you can wear dresses "any color by skin color," if your skin color isn't the "nude" skin color, can you still wear the nude lycra material? (i know a lot of people of all races whose skin tones are drastically different than beige).
:P

[Laura]

here's the real question: since the rules say that you can wear dresses "any color by skin color," if your skin color isn't the "nude" skin color, can you still wear the nude lycra material? (i know a lot of people of all races whose skin tones are drastically different than beige).
:P

From Yanka's post on the previous page, quoted from the Rulebook:

Skin color (S) –equal to the color of the dancer’s skin during the competition (with tan)

So, if someone's skin color is purple at a competition, they cannot wear purple because it is equal to the color of their skin during the competition. They could, however, wear a kind of medium peachy tan. Or beige. Or cappuchino. Or whatever.

Similarly, if someone's skin is a deep golden brown tan at a competition, then by the "skin color" definition above they could wear a light champagne colored fabric -- even if it happens to be their skin color once all the fake tanning and makeup products are washed off. The point is that during the competition the color of the fabric is not the same shade as the color of their exposed skin. The unstated idea here is to avoid simulated nudity. Hence someone with green skin wearing a matching green shade would look not be allowed, but someone with dark green skin wearing light green, or very light green skin wearing dark green, would be fine.

[Joe]

Are you the Costume Police at SWR, Laura?

[JANATHOME]

This costume thing is getting a little bit crazy. I got an EMail from the Chicago regionals saying that they are doing a costume check the night prior to the comp.... You can bring you costume to be examined to make sure that it it fits the guidelines... Wow!

[ACtenDance]

This costume thing is getting a little bit crazy. I got an EMail from the Chicago regionals saying that they are doing a costume check the night prior to the comp.... You can bring you costume to be examined to make sure that it it fits the guidelines... Wow!

They do that for your benefit. I doubt you have to go to the costume check, but if you do go it will allow you to know ahead of time if your costume fits the guidelines rather than getting pulled off the floor on the competition day (or not be allowed on the floor). This way, you can make adjustments ahead of time or find an alternate costume that will meet the requirements.

[wyllo]

Anyone know if satin fabrics count as a material with light effects? I was just discussing it with some people on our team and they think that satin is out, but I'm not reading the rules that way.

[yanka]

They do that for your benefit. I doubt you have to go to the costume check, but if you do go it will allow you to know ahead of time if your costume fits the guidelines rather than getting pulled off the floor on the competition day (or not be allowed on the floor). This way, you can make adjustments ahead of time or find an alternate costume that will meet the requirements.

ditto. Some comps check your costumes when you pick up your registration and tell you if anything needs to be fixed right then and there (so you presumably have a few hours to fix it before you have to dance). Other comps, they only check the dancers on the floor, at which point it may be too late for you to do anything about it (unless the issue can be easily solved with safety pins). The checking on friday night thing just gives you an extra night to fix problems = more convenient for dancers.

[yanka]

Anyone know if satin fabrics count as a material with light effects? I was just discussing it with some people on our team and they think that satin is out, but I'm not reading the rules that way.

I'm pretty sure satin is allowed. Light effects are things on the material: rhinestones, glitter, sequins, ****lic threads, etc. IOW, even if the material in the sewing store came with the light effect stuff already on it (and you didn't add it), it's still illegal. There is no rule saying that the color/fabric must be dull or matte ;)

[samina]

if someone's skin were purple during a comp, that would one helluva scary tan...:rolleyes:

i'll be sure to stay away from that bronzer.

[Kitty]

How different should the color be from my skin?


I am very fair, can I wear something that looks a lot darker than my skin?

for example if we call my skin color "nude" can I wear something "tan" and that be ok?

[yanka]

How different should the color be from my skin?


I am very fair, can I wear something that looks a lot darker than my skin?

for example if we call my skin color "nude" can I wear something "tan" and that be ok?

One of the rules (that I was unaware of beforehand) is that A. skin color material is allowed everywhere but the private areas, and B. I think my understanding is correct in that skin color in the private areas is ok if it's skin color with decoration.

So if your entire dress is skin color and the private areas are completely stoned/covered in lace/bows/flowers/whatever, that's a legal dress (I think).

[Laura]

Are you the Costume Police at SWR, Laura?
Good lord I hope not, but since I'll be at the Registration Table everyone always asks me costume questions anyway.

[Laura]

Anyone know if satin fabrics count as a material with light effects? I was just discussing it with some people on our team and they think that satin is out, but I'm not reading the rules that way.
Satin is fine.

"Light effects" are beading, rhinestones, glitter, me.tallic threads, me.tallic printed bits, me.tallic studs, mirrors, and crystals.

[samina]

what is a tallic stud????:shock:

[yanka]

what is a tallic stud????:shock:

m-e-t-a-l-i-c studs ;)

[samina]

:doh:

[wyllo]

Satin is fine.

"Light effects" are beading, rhinestones, glitter, me.tallic threads, me.tallic printed bits, me.tallic studs, mirrors, and crystals.

Thank you!!!

[Laura]

No sequins or paillettes either!