Edita Daniute found guilty

[danceforfun]

The IDSF has made its decision:

http://www.idsf.net/anti-doping/Edita_Daniute_061117.pdf (http://www.idsf.net/anti-doping/Edita_Daniute_061117.pdf)

So Bizokas/Daniute will not be able to dance the world championships next saturday.

I think it is a wise decision according to the rules od WADA and will have a sufficient impact in any other competing athlete.

I know that there are some who think it´s not right to test amateurs for doping, but in this case, where you have a transition to professionals, it is necessary to keep the lines very clear.

As you see the decision in the case of the R&R Alexis Chardenoux who was negligent about a TUE, the IDSF seems to be strict with the rules.

http://www.idsf.net/anti-doping/Alexis_Chardenoux_061111.pdf

[Joe]

IMO IDSF should just get off its high horse and face the fact that ballroom is never going to get into the Olympics, and stop bothering with the WADA nazis.

[danceforfun]

Do you really think this word is correct for the WADA?

You have to accept that there are a lot of countries with much more members in their associations who don´t agree with you at all.

It´s your right to disagree, but if the majority of members want to obey the rules of the IOC you have to accept that. It´s a democratically elected council who decided this way, not some irrationally thinking "Nazis" how you called them.

I fully comply with the rules as a former athlete and think it´s absolutely right to sanction any use of drugs in ballroom, wether if you regard it as sports or not.

[Chris Stratton]

Danceforfun, you really seem to have a personal axe to grind, as you choose to use much stronger and more judgemental langauge than the IDSF has.

The words "guilty" does not appear in the IDSF judgement. It does however appear in the judgement against the other athlete recently accused, so the word clearly is in their vocabulary to use when warranted.

What does appear in the judgement against Edita is the following passage:

4.13 In the text from the prospectus of the product Meizitang, translated into English, there is no mention of the presence of Sibutramine in its composition. Nevertheless, results from the drugs control laboratory are unequivocal in this context. Everything seems to indicate therefore that there is commercial fraud. In this sense, the WHO, in its publication "WHO pharmaceuticals newsletter", 2 of 2005 on page 3 warned that this product contains Sibutramine according to analyses carried out in the United Kingdom. Similarly, this article mentions that Dutch authorities had also detected this fraud (see footnote no.4).

However, under the "strict liability" rule the athlete is responsable for any substance found in their body, regardless of how it got there.

Despite their decision that the product labeling was fraudulent, the IDSF seems to have based the decision to enact a punishment on this theory:

4.31 As stated above, a simple search on Internet with the words "Meizitang and doping"
and "Sibutramine and herbal products", provide sufficient responses that demonstrate
that the product Meizitang contains sibutramine.

Google before you eat...

And returning to the question of "guilt"

4.38 It is also evident from information we have in this Council, that sibutramine is not a
substance that initially produces significant help in the performance of an athlete as
deliberate consumption of sibutramine is instead damaging or in any case uncertain
for any type of competition in which Mrs Edita Daniute participates as it may alter, for
example, coordination.

And then a quite lenient sentance, consistent with a finding of "you weren't supposed to do that" but quite inconsitent with "guilt":


4.41 Bearing in mind that regulation 5.V.2 foresees a "range" for the sanction from a reprimand
(minimum penalty) to a sanction of one-year (maximum penalty), this Council
considers that the appropriate sanction is THREE (3) MONTHS of Ineligibility for any
competition, a time where the periods in which the Athlete was previously suspended
by the ISDF should be paid for.

[delamusica]

Thanks Chris for the clarification.

Definitely sounds like a "they mislabeled, but still - be more careful next time - light little hand slap" more than a "guilty - must be punished" situation.

[danceforfun]

Sorry, but I read it a little bit differently.

The IDSF found the athlete guilty of a violation of the anti-doping regulations by being negligent because it was possible to inform yourself by googleing the name of the medicament where you obviously could see that it consists of forbidden substances.

The point is not, if she did it intentionally (that is the reason for the relatively mild punishment), but that she has the responsibility of keeping clean.

It could have been a reprimand, if nobody knew about sibutramine in the medicament. But since it was well known about and everybody was capable of getting that information, the IDSF couldn´t let her get away so easy.

[Chris Stratton]

They found her responsable, but they did not find her guilty.

In contrast, they found the other recently accused athlete guilty.

[danceforfun]

Either it is a violation of rules or not. And she is responsible for the violation, deliberately or not.

Of course they saw a minor case so the reduced the time from 1 year minimum to 3 month.

I think with that decision all sides can live.

And all athletes will be more careful with medicaments since it ws such a prominent dancer.

[Laura]

I was curious so I found an English-language web page that advertises Meizitang (http://kmdali.en.alibaba.com/product/50233684/51245591/weight_loss/Meizitang_Slimming_Capsule__Get_Effect_Every_Day_a nd_Lose_3_Pounds_Every_Day_.html). It definitely is misleading, they make it sound all natural and herbal! Anyway, I think the IDSF made the right decision, although I also agree that all this pursuit-of-the-Olympics stuff is a pain in the posterior.

[saludas]

the issue isn't whether it is natural or herbal (so is marijuana, for instance, and so is opium and tobacco) but whether it is a banned substance.

[bjp22tango]

I think what it points to in this day and age is that if you are in a sport with anti doping rules you can't take ANYTHING before checking it out backwards, forwards, and sideways to see what it contains. Sad, but true.

It would help if the drug testing agencies had a list of medications/herbal remedies/etc. that were known to contain banned substances with the caveat that it wasn't definitive. That way athletes could check before taking a cold medicine/diet pill/whatever.

I also think that trying for the Olympics is not worth the effort.

[Joe]

Do you really think this word is correct for the WADA?

You have to accept that there are a lot of countries with much more members in their associations who don´t agree with you at all.

It´s your right to disagree, but if the majority of members want to obey the rules of the IOC you have to accept that. It´s a democratically elected council who decided this way, not some irrationally thinking "Nazis" how you called them.

I fully comply with the rules as a former athlete and think it´s absolutely right to sanction any use of drugs in ballroom, wether if you regard it as sports or not.
I think you should get off your high horse too, and if you have a problem calling WADA "nazis," then you will perhaps allow me to call them, at minimum, fascists.

[samina]

Originally Posted by danceforfun http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=346180#post346180)
Do you really think this word is correct for the WADA?

You have to accept that there are a lot of countries with much more members in their associations who don´t agree with you at all.

It´s your right to disagree, but if the majority of members want to obey the rules of the IOC you have to accept that. It´s a democratically elected council who decided this way, not some irrationally thinking "Nazis" how you called them.

I fully comply with the rules as a former athlete and think it´s absolutely right to sanction any use of drugs in ballroom, wether if you regard it as sports or not.


You sure are an interesting poster, DFF! :)

You are remarkable aggressive on this topic. I mean, nothing wrong with that... knock yourself out.

But the phrase "methinks the lady doth protest too much" comes to mind.

Did you get burned in some way regarding doping? Or, were you found guilty for doping you did not do, thus wanting to police the real violators?

Don't mean to psychoanalyze... it's just, you've expended an enormous amount of energy on this topic (I came across the previous thread launched by Laura, I think). Am thinking there must be more to it than just chit-chat.

Samina

[saludas]

I think what it points to in this day and age is that if you are in a sport with anti doping rules you can't take ANYTHING before checking it out backwards, forwards, and sideways to see what it contains. Sad, but true.

It would help if the drug testing agencies had a list of medications/herbal remedies/etc. that were known to contain banned substances with the caveat that it wasn't definitive. That way athletes could check before taking a cold medicine/diet pill/whatever.

I also think that trying for the Olympics is not worth the effort.

There IS a list - but just try to get USA Dance to find it for you - calls and emails to them usually go unanswered for this list...

[Laura]

the issue isn't whether it is natural or herbal (so is marijuana, for instance, and so is opium and tobacco) but whether it is a banned substance.
I realize that, but my point was that the web site does not say ANYWHERE that it contains Sibutramine in it, which is not natural or herbal and is a prescription drug in many countries. It is misleading to the point of being dangerous, but since the preparation is made/sold in China it's not like the US FDA or other equivalent bodies in other countries can easily go after it. Not that this excuses anything from the WADA's point of view, but I found it interesting to see.

[Chris Stratton]

I get the sense that it works something like this:

If you open a can of coke, you can reasonably expect that it is what it says it is, and is not the original "original" formula.

However, if you buy what is basically a grey-market import, with perhaps a white mailing label in your language slapped over the incomprehensible manufacturer labeling, you should be suspicious. The product may not even be legal to import or sell in your country... and that goes doubly so if you get it off a web site or a shop in a less regulated part of town.

[Laura]

There IS a list - but just try to get USA Dance to find it for you - calls and emails to them usually go unanswered for this list...
I found out last August that anyone can get the list on the web via the US Anti-Doping Agency's web site (http://www.usantidoping.org).

I do agree that getting info directly from USA Dance on this is quite difficult. As the Registrar for the 2006 Nationals, I was supposed to put Anti-Doping information in the check-in packets for all the dancers entered in Adult Championship events. I didn't even receive the booklets and reference cards for this until the Tuesday before Nationals (which started on Friday). The books were quite thick, and I was very displeased with the situation because it gave the athletes basically no time at all to read, process, and act upon the information in the book. Sure, there was someone there at the competition who could hand out Therapeutic Use Forms (which can also be found on the Anti-Doping web site), but that just seemed so last-minute and panic-prone.

So, anyone reading this who is planning on going to the 2007 USA Dance National DanceSport Championships, start checking out www.usantidoping.org well in advance and don't count on USA Dance to hand you the banned substance booklets until the last second. Check out the Anti-Doping web site, and if needed you should talk to your doctor and fill out a Therapeutic Use Form.

Also, I have a pile of 2006 booklets left over from 2006 Nationals. Please note that the US Anti-Doping agency changes/updates these books all the time, so what is in the book and on the Quick Reference card is not complete and up to the second (but the web site is). If someone wants a copy of the 2006 book, let me know and I will figure out how much it costs to mail it, and I will send one to anyone who sends me a self-addressed stamped envelope.

By the way, none of the Anti-Doping tests at the 2006 USA Dance Nationals came back positive.

[samina]

So, anyone reading this who is planning on going to the 2007 USA Dance National DanceSport Championships, start checking out www.usantidoping.org (http://www.usantidoping.org) well in advance and don't count on USA Dance to hand you the banned substance booklets until the last second. Check out the Anti-Doping web site, and if needed you should talk to your doctor and fill out a Therapeutic Use Form.

Also, I have a pile of 2006 booklets left over from 2006 Nationals. Please note that the US Anti-Doping agency changes/updates these books all the time, so what is in the book and on the Quick Reference card is not complete and up to the second (but the web site is). If someone wants a copy of the 2006 book, let me know and I will figure out how much it costs to mail it, and I will send one to anyone who sends me a self-addressed stamped envelope.

Thanks for sharing this info, Laura -- very helpful.

Makes me wonder what I might be ingesting unknowingly of substances that might be banned, especially if I go through a stint of taking exotic herb teas & such.

Samina

[Chris Stratton]

The IDSF has ruled that it is not responsable for providing guidance, which presumably means USA dance isn't either.

Putting forms in packets is a waste of time other than as eduction for the next year, as its too late to act on the information or to get a TUE processed.

The problem with all of this is that like other regulatory regimes it basically creates a "compliance industry" where you need advisors who know the details of the rules. That is much more compatible with a national olympic team/program than it is in the case of individual couples who are lucky if they can get fully coaching support of the issues involved in the actual dancing itself.

[danceforfun]

[/i]


You sure are an interesting poster, DFF! :)

You are remarkable aggressive on this topic. I mean, nothing wrong with that... knock yourself out.

But the phrase "methinks the lady doth protest too much" comes to mind.

Did you get burned in some way regarding doping? Or, were you found guilty for doping you did not do, thus wanting to police the real violators?

Don't mean to psychoanalyze... it's just, you've expended an enormous amount of energy on this topic (I came across the previous thread launched by Laura, I think). Am thinking there must be more to it than just chit-chat.

Samina

What is agressive in my posting? I just think calling the WADA "Nazis" or "fascists" isn´t the right approach to that topic.

I have never been tested in my active times (but surely it would have been negative) and I support all efforts to fight doping. It isn´t a cavallier´s delict but a severe violation of rules gaining an unfair advantage over the clean competitors and real sportsmen.

You may think about dancing as you like. If it´s right trying to reacht for the olympics or not.

Since IDSF is a democratic institution the majority of members has decided to do so and to accept the WADA rules all members have to recognize them too. If you personally like it or not...

[samina]

I have never been tested in my active times (but surely it would have been negative)

I'm glad you've never been caught up in that drama. I'm sure it's quite unpleasant, especially if someone genuinely ended up unwittingly with substance in one's bloodstream.

Samina

[Chris Stratton]

Actually there is really no democratic input into such decisions at all. Even if individuals could vote for IDSF directions (which they can't), the decisions on the doping protocol are not made by the IDSF but instead are forced upon it by the IOC. The only way to restore anything remotely resembling autonomous democtratic decision making by the atheletes would be to abandon the affiliation with IOC.

Given the extreme unlikelihood of ballroom ever beeing chosen as an olympic medal sport, we probably should give up on that effort and return these decisions to where they belong - the ballroom community.

You (danceforfun) however are clearly not interested in democratic decision making as evidenced by your past statements to the effect that professional organizations should not be allowed to decide on their own if their dance events will or will not have doping controls. Instead, you seek to have uninterested parties impose that decision on them. That is not a democratic argument but a quasi-theocratic one - an example of the view that the interested parties do not have a right of self determination, but instead should be under the control of an external, higher authority.

[danceforfun]

I'm glad you've never been caught up in that drama. I'm sure it's quite unpleasant, especially if someone genuinely ended up unwittingly with substance in one's bloodstream.

Samina

Having so many athletes in all the different sports the number of unwillingly taken drugs is rather limited. And mostly decided very moderately as you can see it in Edita´s case.

My opinion is, athletes who don´t take any kind of drugs or medicaments have nothing to fear. And if you take something against a cold or similar reasons it´s your responsibility to be absolutely careful about what and when you take it.

E.g. if Edita ha taken sibutramine during training, it wouldn´t have been a violation. It is forbidden only in the competition. If she had stopped taking it a day before - nothing had happened at all!

Athletes aren´t children who don´t know what to do. They´re responsible grown ups and it is expected from them to ask their doctor or a specialist what the may take and what not.

And the WADA has to be strict in setting the rules because an caught athlete (innocent or not) will find an excuse for the test result. Do you want to decide who is cheating and who not?

[danceforfun]

Actually there is really no democratic input into such decisions at all. Even if individuals could vote for IDSF directions (which they can't), the decisions on the doping protocol are not made by the IDSF but instead are forced upon it by the IOC. The only way to restore anything remotely resembling autonomous democtratic decision making by the atheletes would be to abandon the affiliation with IOC.

Given the extreme unlikelihood of ballroom ever beeing chosen as an olympic medal sport, we probably should give up on that effort and return these decisions to where they belong - the ballroom community.

You however are clearly not interested in democratic decision making as evidenced by your past statements to the effect that professional organizations should not be allowed to decide on their own if their dance events will or will not have doping controls. Instead, you seek to have uninterested parties impose that decision on them. That is not a democratic argument but a quasi-theocratic one - an example of the view that the interested parties do not have a right of self determination, but instead should be under the control of an external, higher authority.

Chris - sorry, but that is not the case!

1. What is the IOC? It is elected by the representatives of a lot of countries and sport associacions, all members of the Olympic movement. Those (wo)men are elected by the members in their country themselves.

So all decisions about anti-doping by the IOC and the WADA are legitimated by democratic elected people who made a very good mind about the topic. By the way - many members of the IOC are former top athletes themselves.

The IDSF as well is democatically elected by the members of a lot of countries. And they decided to apply for the olympics. And so they accepted the WADA rules.

The problem of those decisions is, that they are not made by individuals but by representatives. So you could also question the right for the US Congress to decide for the whole country. But this topic is as old as the first democracies in ancient Greece´s Athen 2500 years ago.

2. The other problem I see is, that too many organizations weaken ballroom dancing, especially if they fight each other. The problem you have in the US is unknown to the German dancing federation. The DPV(pro ass.) is member of DTV which again is member of IDSF. Just recently even the dancing school organization TAF became member of DTV. And of course all members have their own ideas and wishes, but it is solved democratically. (I don´t comply with all decisions, but we either have to accept them or fight for our own ideals)

But as I understand you prefer a rather anarchic system (absence of any rule(r)s).

[dancesportgirl21]

My opinion is, athletes who don´t take any kind of drugs or medicaments have nothing to fear. And if you take something against a cold or similar reasons it´s your responsibility to be absolutely careful about what and when you take it.

E.g. if Edita ha taken sibutramine during training, it wouldn´t have been a violation. It is forbidden only in the competition. If she had stopped taking it a day before - nothing had happened at all!



And wouldn't she have done that if she was knew it contained the substance all along and was purposely avoiding testing positive. I think you just contradicted your assessment of her intent. I don't get it- she made a mistake, disciplinary action has been taken- noting that there was fraud with the company that mislabeled the product, she can't dance at world's, etc etc- can't we all just get along and move forward now? We all learned a valuable lesson and get the point.

[danceforfun]

And wouldn't she have done that if she was knew it contained the substance all along and was purposely avoiding testing positive. I think you just contradicted your assessment of her intent. I don't get it- she made a mistake, disciplinary action has been taken- noting that there was fraud with the company that mislabeled the product, she can't dance at world's, etc etc- can't we all just get along and move forward now? We all learned a valuable lesson and get the point.

I dont´t see a contradiction.

I still think there could be more behind it, but accept the court´s decision.

And I pointed out that sibutramine is only forbidden as a stimulant during competitions. If she stopped taking it a day or two before the competition, there wouldn´t have been a reason for a violation because the stimulating effect could be ruled out for sure - as the regulations explicitely say.

[Chris Stratton]

The problem of those decisions is, that they are not made by individuals but by representatives. So you could also question the right for the US Congress to decide for the whole country. But this topic is as old as the first democracies in ancient Greece´s Athen 2500 years ago.

In this case however the conneciton between the affected people and the decision makers is at least two levels of representation more distant.

Further, the actual decision is not on the table to be revised - it is a take it or leave it condition of association with the IOC. Such an all or nothing decision might not be too bad, if it were an option for individuals to choose a system.

2. The other problem I see is, that too many organizations weaken ballroom dancing, especially if they fight each other.

And there is the second problem - you want to remove the options that give individuals some right of choice. If you have only one system, then there is no individual choice. If you have more than one, there is at least the possibility of choice. So for example in the US we have IDSF-affiliated competitions, amateur events at NDCA (WDC-affiliated) ones, and amateur events at self-deterministic university competitions. That is precisly the kind of choice which the IDSF has committed itself to stamping out.

But as I understand you prefer a rather anarchic system (absence of any rule(r)s).

No I don't. I prefer that rules be adopted only when they are likely to prevent more harm than they cause. With very little evidence that anyone has gained an advantage in ballroom by doping, and a number of cases of inadvertant violations resulting in punishment, it's is quite hard to defend the application of these protocols to our activity. Only if you look at simplisticly higher/faster/louder type objective performance sports (rather than ones that are more art than sport) does the case for doping controls start to become strong.

[Chris Stratton]

And I pointed out that sibutramine is only forbidden as a stimulant during competitions. If she stopped taking it a day or two before the competition, there wouldn´t have been a reason for a violation because the stimulating effect could be ruled out for sure - as the regulations explicitely say.

Which is just another way of saying that the problem was not knowing that it cointained something she shouldn't be taking during competition.

[danceforfun]

Which is just another way of saying that the problem was not knowing that it cointained something she shouldn't be taking during competition.

As you surely know, neglecting or not knowing doesn´t mean not being punished for the violation.

And I think, the IDSF was wise with it´s decision, to consider the possibility of human error as it was presented by the defendant.

[danceforfun]

In this case however the conneciton between the affected people and the decision makers is at least two levels of representation more distant.

But that´s the system of indirect democracy. Some decisions can´t be made by the individual for several reasons. If you don´t agree, feel free to go for your goal in the states. Internationally , I´m sure, you won´t be successful with your campaign against anti-doping rules. For Germany as one of the largest dance sport associations, I can assure you, there is an anonimous vast majority complying with those rules and with the goal to become olympic. I think there is a fundamental difference in understanding dancing as a real kind of sports.

And there is the second problem - you want to remove the options that give individuals some right of choice. If you have only one system, then there is no individual choice. If you have more than one, there is at least the possibility of choice. So for example in the US we have IDSF-affiliated competitions, amateur events at NDCA (WDC-affiliated) ones, and amateur events at self-deterministic university competitions. That is precisly the kind of choice which the IDSF has committed itself to stamping out.

IDSF is the democratically instated authority of amateur dance sport worldwide. That´s a fact you cannot dispute. Nobody is forcing you to dance in their competitions. You may conduct competitions near a haystack or whereever you like, but don´t be expected to be recognized by others as champion.

In IDSF many countries have come together and founded a worldwide association of amateur dance sports. So there are a lot of different interests conflicting as in real politics. But in the end there are accepted rules (that can be changed, if you find a majority) any amateur dancer in the world has to accept, when he wants to compete with others.

As I already pointed out, you may disagree as an individual and refuse to compete under those conditions, but you won´t ever be regarded as real world champion because the IDSF is the only recognized amateur association by the IOC. And If IOC decides that any member has to accept international anti-doping regulations, IDSF has to - as swimming, skating, tennis, soccer and all the other sports do.

E.g. look at boxing with all those different associations. There are so many world champions that you can´t decide, who really is the best in the world. There´s a lot of money involved and that is the only reason why there are so many.

No I don't. I prefer that rules be adopted only when they are likely to prevent more harm than they cause. With very little evidence that anyone has gained an advantage in ballroom by doping, and a number of cases of inadvertant violations resulting in punishment, it's is quite hard to defend the application of these protocols to our activity. Only if you look at simplisticly higher/faster/louder type objective performance sports (rather than ones that are more art than sport) does the case for doping controls start to become strong.

I repeat: If you think, the present regulations aren´t good enough, go to your association and make the proposal. If you can convince your people, you can make the effort in the IDSF. If your argumentation is good, I´m sure, the IDSF will change the rules. But don´t forget: They have doctors who are specialized in this topic. Don´t be too disappointed, If your Ideas aren´t accepted...

[White Chacha]

Call me a horse, but I feel beat to death.

[Chris Stratton]

IDSF is the democratically instated authority of amateur dance sport worldwide. That´s a fact you cannot dispute.

I can dispute it, because it is not true. IDSF is an international body for dancing. It is not the only one, and it is not really very democtratic in a practical sense.

More importantly though, truly functional democracies rarely declare war on each other. Yet declaring war on other organizations is exactly what IDSF has done when individuals have banded together to democratically form alternatives. Read the IDSF's own press releases and you will form a more accurate view of the organization.

But in the end there are accepted rules (that can be changed, if you find a majority) any amateur dancer in the world has to accept, when he wants to compete with others.

The idea still works with multiple systems to choose from. In fact, it works a lot better, because people with comparable views collect in organizations where they form a majority and shape the nature of that organization to their liking, while those with different views collect in different organizations.

Part of the problem with the IDSF in addition to the "there can be only one" attitude is that some real decisions are deferred to the IOC. To change them, you would have to convince a majority not of the dance world, but of the overall sports world - most of which does not have nearly as strong an "artistic" component to its endeavors balancing (of hopefully overshadowing) the raw sport aspect. In a sport that is mostly about raw strenght, doping controls are probably necessary - in an art where strength is merely the paintbrush, they are rather silly - the specialty of those who have let their focus get quite distracted from the idea of dancing.

because the IDSF is the only recognized amateur association by the IOC.

Who cares about the IOC? Given how little IOC cares about dancing, its quite unwise to be the IOC's lap dog, eternally hoping to be handed some sort of table scrap like one-time exhibition status, which is a better reward for loyalty than dancing is likely to get.

Being in the olympics was a really cool idea... until we started thinking about what was actually required to do it. And if that wasn't enough to sour you on the idea, there remains the fact that the olympics clearly doesn't want us.

They have doctors who are specialized in this topic.

Dancers should have much better ways to spend their money... such as on dance teachers. Writing largely irrelevent rules, and then forcing everyone to waste money getting advice on compliance is just silly. Especially because it is not what dancers will do. If you've spent any time around active dancers, you will know that the usual approach to problems with no ready solution is to simply ignore them and hope it doesn't become an issue in their particular case. Which certainly seems to be how the risk of inadvertant doping is generally handled by those at risk of accidentally doing it. Nobody intends to break the rules, but some accidentally do, suffer their brief suspensions and treat it like being sidelined by an inury or something equally out of their control - it's a risk that is not viewed as being practically preventable.

[danceforfun]

I can dispute it, because it is not true. IDSF is an international body for dancing. It is not the only one, and it is not really very democtratic in a practical sense.

You can see it as you like, but internationally recognized as the only dancing organization is IDSF. And there is only one internationally accepted roof association for all kinds of sports and that is IOC. Thats a fact.

That there are some other tries to establish amateur dancing aside from IDSF and real sports is true, but it is not recognized by the sports family.

More importantly though, truly functional democracies rarely declare war on each other. Yet declaring war on other organizations is exactly what IDSF has done when individuals have banded together to democratically form alternatives. Read the IDSF's own press releases and you will form a more accurate view of the organization.

So you could name George W. Bush undemocratic by attacking IRAQ! And America still is a democracy with all of it´s possible errors.

If you criticize special topics, it wold be nice, if you specify your problems.

The idea still works with multiple systems to choose from. In fact, it works a lot better, because people with comparable views collect in organizations where they form a majority and shape the nature of that organization to their liking, while those with different views collect in different organizations.

Part of the problem with the IDSF in addition to the "there can be only one" attitude is that some real decisions are deferred to the IOC. To change them, you would have to convince a majority not of the dance world, but of the overall sports world - most of which does not have nearly as strong an "artistic" component to its endeavors balancing (of hopefully overshadowing) the raw sport aspect. In a sport that is mostly about raw strenght, doping controls are probably necessary - in an art where strength is merely the paintbrush, they are rather silly - the specialty of those who have let their focus get quite distracted from the idea of dancing.

There of course can only be one as it is with all the other olympic sports, otherwise dancing would stay provincial forever.

The main difference between your view of dancing and mine (which is the one of the vast majority of German dancers and most European, too) is, how you regard dancing as. You see it merely as an art (what it surely partly is), but neglect the importance of the sport aspect. Dancing has been neglected by the IOC for years because of this long taken attitude. But modern dancing as brought to us by the italian style of dynamics and speed is something absolutely different than the rather artistic and exclusive way of the 50s and 60s. Today, in latin even more than in standard, physical strenght, endurance and power is more important than ever before. Of course concentration and coordination still is one very important element as musically understanding an interpreting your performance, but with todays top athletes the emphasis is "athlete", not artist any more.

And so it is only logical to become member of IOC with all of its advantages and disadvantages.

And having those facts of course you must introduce a suitable anti-doping charta. Any sports has got some individual regulations that comply with the WADA. E.g. the German one just has been revised by the parliament of German dance clubs (who elect the president of the DTV).

Who cares about the IOC? Given how little IOC cares about dancing, its quite unwise to be the IOC's lap dog, eternally hoping to be handed some sort of table scrap like one-time exhibition status, which is a better reward for loyalty than dancing is likely to get.

Being in the olympics was a really cool idea... until we started thinking about what was actually required to do it. And if that wasn't enough to sour you on the idea, there remains the fact that the olympics clearly doesn't want us.

You are free to dance under a more artistic roof, but dont expect the rest of the world to regard you as ballroom champion. Anybody can do it and perhaps there can be some competitors, but I don´t think you can find too many enthusiasts who share your view.

Dancers should have much better ways to spend their money... such as on dance teachers. Writing largely irrelevent rules, and then forcing everyone to waste money getting advice on compliance is just silly. Especially because it is not what dancers will do. If you've spent any time around active dancers, you will know that the usual approach to problems with no ready solution is to simply ignore them and hope it doesn't become an issue in their particular case. Which certainly seems to be how the risk of inadvertant doping is generally handled by those at risk of accidentally doing it. Nobody intends to break the rules, but some accidentally do, suffer their brief suspensions and treat it like being sidelined by an inury or something equally out of their control - it's a risk that is not viewed as being practically preventable.

This is the wrong approach. For hobby dancers there won´t be a difference. But as an international or national champion you have to go to a sports abilty examination in Germany for about the last 20 years. When I was nominated for our team 15 years ago, I had to be fully checked, Electrocardiogramm, endurance test, blood check and all those rather disgusting things. For insurance reasons today any dancer has to, otherwise he doesn´t get his clearance by DTV. And where is the problem of asking your doctor, if you buy a drug (you can´t buy it without him anyway)? Do you want to throw it into your stomach without knowing, what side effects it could have?

Better ask your local doctor...

[danceforfun]

http://www.sportheute.ch/54832/602128.html (http://www.sportheute.ch/54832/602128.html)
http://www.sportheute.ch/535216/747762.html (http://www.sportheute.ch/535216/747762.html)
http://www.sportheute.ch/535216/611428.html (http://www.sportheute.ch/535216/611428.html)

Sorry, the press is from switzerland and in German, but surely interesting.

There the fight between the amateurs and professionals is made responsible for the non-acceptance of dancesport.

But there´s a rumor in Aarhus where the WC is taking place. Edita Daniute seems to have gone to the European sports court in Lausanne trying to force her start in the world championship.

As the problem has already damaged dancing in the public, now this couple is going to make it even worse by doing so. When I earlier stated the decision was wise, now I think it should end in a lifetime penalty. This is unacceptable. And I don´t think they will have a chance in Aarhus any more. Not after this action.

By the way: I don´t think the sports court will be any more merciful than IDSF...

[danceforfun]

Now it is official:

http://www.idsf.net/press/2006/10_2006.pdf

Edita daniute is allowed to dance the world championship. The CAS as appealing court is lifting the suspension of IDSF temporarily until a final decision is made.

As I presume, it won´t lift the suspension in the end, but could prolong it up to a year or longer. This Court is even stronger in prosecuting doping cases than IDSF.

If that happens, the world championship will be decided at a court, if the adjucators don´t stop it tomorrow. I only can hope, that Bizokas/Daniute don´t make it.

All remaining sympathies will be lost tomorrow, because they will be remebered as the couple that started the biggest scandal in dancesport ever.

[waltzgirl]

[
And I don´t think they will have a chance in Aarhus any more. Not after this action.


And the fact that that's a possibility is, IMO, a much bigger scandal and obstacle to dancesport in the Olympics that any accidental ingestion of a banned substance.

Doping seems to me to be a bit of a red herring. I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of the impact of the Olympics on judging. It seems to me that there's no way the current judging system would survive in the Olympics. It's far too fuzzy, subjective, and open to politics. Look at what's happened in recent years in ice skating. And their system has always been at least somewhat more objective than dancing's.

Oh, well, one good thing would result from judges having to adjust their standards for the Olympics: they'd have to stop basing their judgements on costuming.

[danceforfun]

And the fact that that's a possibility is, IMO, a much bigger scandal and obstacle to dancesport in the Olympics that any accidental ingestion of a banned substance.

Doping seems to me to be a bit of a red herring. I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of the impact of the Olympics on judging. It seems to me that there's no way the current judging system would survive in the Olympics. It's far too fuzzy, subjective, and open to politics. Look at what's happened in recent years in ice skating. And their system has always been at least somewhat more objective than dancing's.

Oh, well, one good thing would result from judges having to adjust their standards for the Olympics: they'd have to stop basing their judgements on costuming.

Has there ever been an athlete in ice skating who was was found guilty of a violation of anti-doping rules and forced his start by court? I can´t remember.

And since there are 2-3 couples who are nearly equal to Bizokas, there´s still a personal component in the judge´s decision, which couple they prefer.

By the way: Do you think, this situation has no psychological impact to them? I don´t think they will be able to dance as usual and so there´s a propability that they loose anyway.

And there´s another point: It´s very probable that the sports court will make an even stronger decision and so I think nobody has an interest in having Bizokas as world champion for 10 days. Perhaps that sounds not very sportsmanlike but there are bigger things at stake.

As I already posted, the yellow press will kill Bizokas in the air. This decision not to accept the suspension of 3 months that would have left no big damage with the couple, is so stupid and stubborn that almost anyone who´s present tomorrow in Aarhus will be not amused by the fact that this doping case grows bigger and bigger. Not the audience and neither the officials or adjucators.

Daniute ends her career by this action permanently.

[samina]

Daniute ends her career by this action permanently.

Why do you say that?

It also seems that you say that with some relish... am I mistaken?

[fluffy]

I really think they should take the punishment, and win next year...

[danceforfun]

I really think they should take the punishment, and win next year...

That´s just my opinion.

By not accepting the very benevolent decision but bringing IDSF (and us amateur dancers alltogether) in a very problematical situation with the press as well in the relation with IOC they won´t make any friends anywhere. Even with their former protectors.

As I´m absolutely sure that they won´t stay world champion after the decision of the CAS, anybody will remember this behaviour and so their whole career is at stake. Or do you think IDSF will forget this? This will follow them as professionals as well. Stupid!!!

[samina]

That´s just my opinion.

By not accepting the very benevolent decision but bringing IDSF (and us amateur dancers alltogether) in a very problematical situation with the press as well in the relation with IOC they won´t make any friends anywhere. Even with their former protectors.

As I´m absolutely sure that they won´t stay world champion after the decision of the CAS, anybody will remember this behaviour and so their whole career is at stake. Or do you think IDSF will forget this? This will follow them as professionals as well. Stupid!!!

Yes, I see your point. I wonder what their own thoughts are... perhaps they are reasoning that they should fight in the short-term for a perceived injustice, unaware of the potential long-term consequences.

Let's not forget how young they are. "Inexperienced" and "naive" might be a gentler way to describe them than "stupid".

Although I'm sure they've already learned scads of lessons from this experience.

[SDsalsaguy]

"Inexperienced" and "naive"???

They have more competition experience - and at the highest levels - than the majority of active competitors today, am or pro.

[danceforfun]

Yes, I see your point. I wonder what their own thoughts are... perhaps they are reasoning that they should fight in the short-term for a perceived injustice, unaware of the potential long-term consequences.

Let's not forget how young they are. "Inexperienced" and "naive" might be a gentler way to describe them than "stupid".

Although I'm sure they've already learned scads of lessons from this experience.

With almost 10 years in the top of the world and at an age of 27 you can´t say, Edita is unexperienced.

I don´t think, they´ve learned very much. Disregarding the really mild punishment as a second chance, they want to become world champion by force. The real reason for this is something different. The driving force behind is a unbelieveably ambitioned management that wants them to become world champion at any cost. This management doesn´t care about the athletes.

The point that even makes it worse is, that there is not the slightest sign of apology or regret in the actions taken.

[samina]

"Inexperienced" and "naive"???

They have more competition experience - and at the highest levels - than the majority of active competitors today, am or pro.

Nah, I don't mean professionally inexperienced or naive... I meant as far as understanding how to wend their way through complex social/power dynamics.

But I thought they were younger -- from an interview I read recently, I gathered that they were in their early 20s.

In any event, it's a tough situation they're in -- lots of people pulling them in many directions, I imagine.

[DeltaVim]

The point that even makes it worse is, that there is not the slightest sign of apology or regret in the actions taken.

Excuse me? "Apology or regret in the actions taken"?

"I'm soooo sorry for not googling this supplement I took... that doesn't even give me an edge; it might even inhibit my abilities... *sob* I'm so evillllll...."

Appealing the decision to a higher power in the foodchain doesn't seem brash or arrogant to me. 3 months suspension, though light compared to what they could have imposed, for doing NOTHING except unknowingly breaking a rule in a way that did her NO good at all (heck they are at the top anyway) sounds like mere prudence to me. I would have expected a warning and a note to all competitors.

Zero-tolerance policies do one thing and one thing only: by leveling the gradient of punishment, they only encourage more severe forms of abuse because the penalty is the same (possible health consequences aside), and the chance of being caught is the same.

Okay, so the gradient of punishment isn't strictly level, but it seems a little too flat. If there is no harm to others or no "unfair" (another topic I could have a field day with) advantage, she's being punished for a made-up crime (within the IDSF world, as it's not truly criminal).

If you (the highly paranoid aside) were at a friend's house and had a mild cough, would you think twice before taking an offered lozenge, or asprin for a headache (possibly of unknown origin of manufacture)? My point is if something seems innoculous, most people don't give it second thought. I don't think living in paranoia should be necessary. Next, we'll be testing tap water before drinking it...

(Hey, that's actually not a bad idea in some places I've lived...!)

[danceforfun]

As they were lucky, the IDSF accepted the given excuse for taking the drug.

But sibutramine is also a way to camouflage other drugs with more effects. So there was decided in dubio pro reo.

Instead of accepting this mild punishment and apologizing for the error as a result of negligence they attack the IDSF and make a scandal out of it.

I expect at least one year suspension by the appealing court because there is no substantial fact that can change the decision. As the CAS is known to it´s rigid decisions, it´s not bound by the 3 month suspension but absolutely free after the rules of WADA. Now it isn´t in the hand of IDSF any more, the´re treated as any ordinary athlete from any other sports.

It will be like a Pyrrhus victory.

And it has got nothing to do with paranoia but with good old common sense. If you are an athlete at the top level with this yearlong experience and the chance to become world champion you have to take care of what you eat and drink.

And I don´t agree that zero-tolerance policy is contraproductive. If you don´t say no at any costs, people will take more drugs. As long as the chance of being detected is small or getting away with a foul excuse is easy, the´ll try.

[tanya_the_dancer]

And I don´t agree that zero-tolerance policy is contraproductive. If you don´t say no at any costs, people will take more drugs. As long as the chance of being detected is small or getting away with a foul excuse is easy, the´ll try.

Nah, if the chance of being detected is small, and the penalty is the same whether you accidentally take a cold pill with forbidden substance or take a load of some stimulant on purpose, probably more people will do it on purpose.

Zero-tolerance policies are stupid in general (not just in dancesport) and their excesses have made some people laughingstock of the nation here.

[Chris Stratton]

I think the important point actually is that the world championship was damaged by the IDSF's own press release raising this issue.

No reasonable person has any suspicion that this couple has gotten where they have as a result of drug abuse.

As a result, removing them from the event makes it a hollow victory for whoever would win - did they really win as dancers, or only on a technicality?

Letting them dance makes any outcome other than first place suspicious, because some will wonder if the judges let their personal views about the case shade their judgement of the dancing itself.

Meanwhile, if they dance and win, those concerned about the credability of the doping controls will be upset (but then maybe they deserve to be upset for fixating on something so irrelevant).

In short, the IDSF took the risk of ruining high profile events when it agreed to implement these silly rules, and this year the bill came due, and at its championship no less. No decision, no result, can fully restore the legitimacy of the outcome of this year's event.



However, we could stop worrying about who wins, and decide to enjoy the dancing for the art that it is...

[SDsalsaguy]

Quite well said Chris.

[samina]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing... thanks for your eloquence, Chris.

[danceforfun]

As long as you criticize anti-doping actions in general you will come to that conclusion - and of course IDSF is to blame for the actions this stupid woman - sorry no other word fits - takes.

Be honest: You don´t want doping tests in general and so any problem that results of enforcing it on the athletes gives you cheers!

But the reality is somehow different:

IDSF and the whole dance sport community has decided to run anti-doping tests according to the IOC and WADA rules. And so all athletes who want to participate in IDSF competitions have agreed to comply. So there will be no lex Daniute. As you have seen Jan Ulrich was suspended before the Tour de France last year and other cases with prominent athletes who were only under supicion. Daniute was proven guilty of the violation and wants to enforce her paticipation at the world championship with the help of legal actions.

Not only that this won´t be successful as it wasn´t in all the prior cases, it is not worthy in the spirit of a good sportsmanship to do so. She is not ready to take the responsibility of her actions and blames others for her fault - even when it should have been accidental(what I now don´t believe even more than before).

A possible scenario is, that they want to win today, declare their amateur status as cancelled and turn pro instantly. What they forget is, that the CAS has jurisdiction over many professional dancers in a lot European countries as well. If there was a professional championship in Germany, Austria or Switzerland e.g., they still aren´t allowed to participate as long as they´re suspended by CAS.

Believe me, we have a board like this in Germany, too. There is an unanymous opinion about this, even beyond those, who first have defended Edita Daniute.

There will be a lot of boos today and I can´t imagine that they will make it to the finale.

The name Daniute now will stay connected to doping and bad spirit forever...

[wooh]

Call me a horse, but I feel beat to death.

Can I join you in the stables?

[samina]

The name Daniute now will stay connected to doping and bad spirit forever...

Your fervor will go a long way to ensure this becomes true.

I'm hoping the dance community is more evolved than that, and that Daniute and anyone else who is imperfect is able to march on toward whatever success their dancing deserves.

For me... the drama's over when it's over. For chrissakes, sh*t happens to all of us and we move on...

[danceforfun]

Your fervor will go a long way to ensure this becomes true.

I'm hoping the dance community is more evolved than that, and that Daniute and anyone else who is imperfect is able to march on toward whatever success their dancing deserves.

For me... the drama's over when it's over. For chrissakes, sh*t happens to all of us and we move on...

You forget the press that already started to focus on Bizokas/Daniute and doping. They will be presented to the public as the dancers who introduced doping to ballroom. It will do no good to themselves and dancing as sports in general.

Let me be blunt: Would you go to a dancing teacher who was proven guilty of a doping violation? If they had accepted the mild punishment in 1 or 2 years nobody would have remembered. Now it is known to a much larger public and so people will say: Ah-the doping couple like Jan Ulrich and all the others...

[samina]

Let me be blunt: Would you go to a dancing teacher who was proven guilty of a doping violation?

For the horribly performance-enhancing substance found in Daniute's system.... ????

Come on, let's keep things in perspective & not get silly.

No sensible dancer is going to avoid training with the pair because of this. Their expertise will not be wasted professionally and they have, in my eyes, as bright a teaching future as ever.

[danceforfun]

For the horribly performance-enhancing substance found in Daniute's system.... ????

Come on, let's keep things in perspective & not get silly.

No sensible dancer is going to avoid training with the pair because of this. Their expertise will not be wasted professionally and they have, in my eyes, as bright a teaching future as ever.

Just wait and see, what will happen. The mechanisms are quite different in the world. In Europe there will be no room for them after that.

It is not the amount of drugs they have taken, it´s their approach of handling it that makes the difference.

[samina]

In Europe there will be no room for them after that.

Eh... so they'll come to the US and live happily ever after. LOL

They can come here and I'll let them train my son...

[Joe]

One final whack at the dead horse for me: is there a reason that they can't be allowed to dance in the championships and if later found to be guilty, have any placings stripped from them?

[danceforfun]

One final whack at the dead horse for me: is there a reason that they can't be allowed to dance in the championships and if later found to be guilty, have any placings stripped from them?

As they are expected to be one of the finalists there´s a problem:

What is, if they should really win and afterwards be disqualified?

You all have only thought about B/D yet. What about the other couples?

Did you think about the runner-up who would be world champion this way?

Then they better should have abandoned this year´s championship at all.

[samina]

Did you think about the runner-up who would be world champion this way?

Then they better should have abandoned this year´s championship at all.

So... great dancing, fabulous performance, and grace under fire don't really matter. It's only who gets crowned #1 that counts.

I see.:shock:

[SDsalsaguy]

There will be a lot of boos today and I can´t imagine that they will make it to the finale.
Any judge who doesn't place them in the final on these grounds deserves to be banned from all future judging. The judges' role is to mark the dancing they see on the floor before them, not to act as a surrogate for an established testing/ruling/apeals aparatus (and one that is being used at that). The pure lack of ethics implicated in not marking such a talented couple into the final based on such outside factors would say far more about that judge than about the couple and, at least in my view, would be a far more serious mark in the eye of dancesport.

[SDsalsaguy]

One final whack at the dead horse for me: is there a reason that they can't be allowed to dance in the championships and if later found to be guilty, have any placings stripped from them?
That is, in fact, exactly what the case is and whyt the apeal included a stay on the three month suspension. If found guilty then they *will* lose any titles and placings won in the interim.

[danceforfun]

So... great dancing, fabulous performance, and grace under fire don't really matter. It's only who gets crowned #1 that counts.

I see.:shock:

Come back to earth! All finalists of last year´s championships, of course including B/D are excellent dancers.

Be realistic: There´s not the slightest chance of keeping the title for them as the CAS won´t lift the suspension, but could even prolong it.

And the other couples have the right to a world champion that is crowned in dignity, not by law.

Or do you want to repeat the ceremony, when B/D will be disqualified by CAS?

[Chris Stratton]

Your sports "law" has already meddled in the case and muddied the waters by raising an issue with no relevence to the actual dance contest itself. No matter what the official outcome, there will be large factions of the dance community who believe that a different couple actually won/deserved to win/would have won/whatever.

Of course that's usually the case anyway ;-)

[samina]

Any judge who doesn't place them in the final on these grounds deserves to be banned from all future judging... The pure lack of ethics implicated in not marking such a talented couple into the final based on such outside factors would say far more about that judge than about the couple and, at least in my view, would be a far more serious mark in the eye of dancesport.

Yes, indeed.


Be realistic: There´s not the slightest chance of keeping the title for them as the CAS won´t lift the suspension, but could even prolong it.

And the other couples have the right to a world champion that is crowned in dignity, not by law.

The dancers will compete, the judges will hopefully perform just as professionally, and everyone will have to make the best of whatever happens. These situations prove people's mettle.

[danceforfun]

Your sports "law" has already meddled in the case and muddied the waters by raising an issue with no relevence to the actual dance contest itself. No matter what the official outcome, there will be large factions of the dance community who believe that a different couple actually won/deserved to win/would have won/whatever.

Of course that's usually the case anyway ;-)

Besides this usual talking resulting of different tastes and somtimes envy this contest will have a new title today:

:artsy: Dancing with the Dopes :artsy:

I know, how you think about doping tests in general, but as they are fact today, all contestants have to accept it. And B/D have accepted the anti-doping codex and so they cannot do what they do without having lost every sympathy the had before. Don´t forget the championship is in Denmark, a country with very strong rules against doping and a very clear public opinion against doping. As it is in Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Spain ...

[samina]

:artsy: Dancing with the Dopes :artsy:



How absurd. Have I walked into a Monty Python sketch?

You really can be quite entertaining, DFF...


Anyway...have had enuf of the ludicrous. The horse is beginning to smell a bit. <g>

[Chris Stratton]

As it is in Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Spain ...

I thought the Netherlands was where you were supposed to go if you wanted to smoke dope...

Which just goes to show that each section of society has its own attitudes after all - we are not a uniform world.

[wooh]

I know, how you think about doping tests in general, but as they are fact today, all contestants have to accept it.

And the rules are in place to deal with such infractions. B/D are using those rules as they see fit, going through the channels available to them. Just as they have to deal with the doping rules, YOU as a spectator have to deal with them as well. And those rules allow them to challenge the ruling and compete. There are those of us that wouldn't have the rules at all, you appear to want them stricter. It doesn't matter, rules are in place. They're being followed. B/D aren't following them in a way that you agree with, sorry. But it's hypocritical of you to go on and on about following the doping rules then complain when those same rules are used to challenge the suspension.

[danceforfun]

And the rules are in place to deal with such infractions. B/D are using those rules as they see fit, going through the channels available to them. Just as they have to deal with the doping rules, YOU as a spectator have to deal with them as well. And those rules allow them to challenge the ruling and compete. There are those of us that wouldn't have the rules at all, you appear to want them stricter. It doesn't matter, rules are in place. They're being followed. B/D aren't following them in a way that you agree with, sorry. But it's hypocritical of you to go on and on about following the doping rules then complain when those same rules are used to challenge the suspension.


Not quite right. The rules in IDSF foresee that the suspension stays until the appeal lifts them. Temporary decisions as made by CAS are in fact rather strange and unusual.

But it is as it is. My point is why do they damage the whole system out of a rather selfish wish to become world champion. They won´t succeed either ways .

[fluffy]

Well I hope they win. And go on to win next year in less controversial circumstances.

I heard today from one of their coaches that the banned substance wasn't listed on the ingredients on the box. Are you supposed to analyse everything just in case? Apparently it's only banned in competition, it was taken the morning of a competition and did not have the required time to work its way throught the system (8 hrs). Had she taken it the night before there would have been no problem.

I await the results with interest.

[pygmalion]

I await the results with interest.

Thanks to DF, so do I. I wish them the best. Call me cynical, but the scarlet letter D for doper ( or D for disgrace to the sport -- your choice ) seems an enormous and unfair burden to carry. Based on what I've read, I find it difficult to discern malicious intent and even more difficult to see any difference between this couple and many other couples, other than having been randomly tested for an ambiguously-labeled substance.

I hope this uproar helps both competitive couples and dance-governing organizations learn to sort things out a bit more clearly. :cool:

[DeltaVim]

Thanks to DF, so do I. I wish them the best. Call me cynical, but the scarlet letter D for doper ( or D for disgrace to the sport -- your choice ) seems an enormous and unfair burden to carry. Based on what I've read, I find it difficult to discern malicious intent and even more difficult to see any difference between this couple and many other couples, other than having been randomly tested for an ambiguously-labeled substance.

I hope this uproar helps both competitive couples and dance-governing organizations learn to sort things out a bit more clearly. :cool:

They won! *cheer* *clap clap clap*
http://dancesportinfo.net/DisplayNews.aspx#419

Scarlet letter 'D'? As I've mentioned before, I too refuse to acknowledge that for them in this case. I hope most people do the same.

Not that there aren't situations that don't warrant that. I just think this isn't one of them.

[pygmalion]

Totally agreed. :cool: Exactly why I used the Scarlet Letter reference ... because most of us know how the book turned out ... with the letter itself being symbolic of societal judgment but also its hypocrisy.

[DeltaVim]

Totally agreed. :cool: Exactly why I used the Scarlet Letter reference ... because most of us know how the book turned out ... with the letter itself being symbolic of societal judgment but also its hypocrisy.

O/T:
True :) Good book, very good book... also, do you remember who protested her "sin" the most?
We really should have a "good book" thread in Dancer's Anonymous... hmmm, maybe one already exists...

... back on topic :)

I should say something on-topic now. Double and triple congrats and props to Arunas & Edita.

[SDsalsaguy]

I wonder if the fact that the German couple wouldn't have won even without B/D might quiet DFF's protestations... in either case, however, congrats are in order for a very talented couple who have worked long and hard for their results! :D

[dancesportgirl21]

They won! *cheer* *clap clap clap*
http://dancesportinfo.net/DisplayNews.aspx#419

Scarlet letter 'D'? As I've mentioned before, I too refuse to acknowledge that for them in this case. I hope most people do the same.

Not that there aren't situations that don't warrant that. I just think this isn't one of them.

I know this may bother some on the forum, but it's only so appropriate with such news:

OH SNAP! :D lol!

Super congrats to them

[fluffy]

Hurrah for them in difficult circumstances. Bosco & Pitton 2nd is no surprise, but the Karabey's coming so high is. THey've had a few bad results recently and looked like they were on a downwards slide. I would have liked to see the Boyces higher, but that's national bias for you!

[swan]

Freudian Slip on IDSF's part. Check out which country that Arunas & Edita represented was listed - GERMANY! :nope:

http://www.idsf.net/index.tpl?style=result_display&action=view&what=14756

[SDsalsaguy]

:lol:

[DancerForLife]

I actually don't think they should have been allowed to compete. She was found guilty - I think at that point it should have been clear that they won't be competing for a while. Otherwise what are the rules for??

I wonder what it all says about our 'sport' and the enforcement of any sorts of rules - you have been found guilty using illegal substances, but we will temporarily lift the ban of you competing so you can go and win the world title???

Not happy... :-(

[waltzgirl]

But part of the rules are set by the court that allowed them to compete. Its decisions are rules, too.

[SDsalsaguy]

Exactly, and adopting the IOC/WADA rules (as the IDSF did) includes being able to apeal to the CAS.

[danceforfun]

I wonder if the fact that the German couple wouldn't have won even without B/D might quiet DFF's protestations... in either case, however, congrats are in order for a very talented couple who have worked long and hard for their results! :D

As we both haven´t seen the competition we only can rely on the marks of the adjucators. And there are some very strange discrepancies that you should at least consider when you talk about the competition:

B Giedrius Januskevecius / Litauen - guess why?

C Kenny Welsh / England gives Sascha a 6 even in Slow ! (his best dance)

D Luigi Campari / Italy promotes his own couple and Ferrugia/Köhler

G Anguelina Degtiarenko / Russia gives always a 6, her own couple a 3

There were 3 adjucators who set Karabey even in front of Bizokas. Anne Laxholm (A) und Christa Fenn (E) and Shen Yi (H). All three well known dancing teachers of world quality. And even your John Kimmins saw Karabey in Vienesse Waltz and slow as best couple. Besides - If Christa Fenn, the German adjucator had given Bizokas a 2 and Karabey a 1 they could have been second!

And all qualified people I´ve talked about this, who have seen it live, said that Sascha and Natascha were dancing the competition of their lifetime. And that they saw them in front!

This World championship is worth nothing! The winner will be disqualified by CAS anyway and there will be another mode of selecting the adjucators beginning with Jan, 1. 2007 that hopefully will change the attitude of several adjucators.

Besides of personal beliefs and preferences neither Bosco nor Bizokas can feel very happy about this result. Being wolrd champion made by court decision?

[fluffy]

Sour Grapes perchance? Judging is not consistent as you don't have the luxury to look at each couple for long and it depends what they look like when you look at them! In our latest comp we had marks from 1st to 6th! Those who marked us 6th either didn't like us, or saw us looking rubbish, or marked their own couples. This is real life.

THe world championship has always had political judging, but usually sounds about right. I think it was a very good result for the Karabey's as I think they've been looking a little stiff recently and their recent results showed that. I'm very surprised to see the two russian couples in the finals.

[swan]

Besides of personal beliefs and preferences neither Bosco nor Bizokas can feel very happy about this result. Being wolrd champion made by court decision?

In that case, you and the Karabeys should be happy that the Karabeys wouldn't be put into that situation :) Let Bosco & Bizokas deal with it (and rightfully so!) Love Arunas & Edita. Love Paolo & Sylvia. Well deserved placements.

I agreed with Fluffy that the Boyces' placement was a bit too low. 7th perhaps, but 9th? Unbelievable!

[fluffy]

I agreed with Fluffy that the Boyces' placement was a bit too low. 7th perhaps, but 9th? Unbelievable!
They must be disappointed (that's the polite term....). I also love Paulo & Sylvia, who are getting better each time I see them.

I can't wait to see the video, my partner's mother always tapes them as we don't get them in the UK. I'd be interested to see their performances. Sergei and Olga are an up and coming couple who I like, but I still wouldn't put them ahead of the Boyces, nor Marat & Alina, whom I find a bit boring.

[swan]

I can't wait to see the video, my partner's mother always tapes them as we don't get them in the UK.

It'd be nice if you upload them to youtube :)


Sergei and Olga are an up and coming couple who I like, but I still wouldn't put them ahead of the Boyces, nor Marat & Alina, whom I find a bit boring.

I saw them back in September in the US. They looked better than Marat & Alina! Boyces weren't there, so couldn't comment. Sergei & Olga have a flare to their dancing. Very dynamic & fresh energy, but not out of control. Sometimes it's that kind of energy in live performance that would make you want to look at them more than others; thus the higher marks.

[danceforfun]

In that case, you and the Karabeys should be happy that the Karabeys wouldn't be put into that situation :) Let Bosco & Bizokas deal with it (and rightfully so!) Love Arunas & Edita. Love Paolo & Sylvia. Well deserved placements.

I agreed with Fluffy that the Boyces' placement was a bit too low. 7th perhaps, but 9th? Unbelievable!

As you obviously haven´t seen the competition, you should know, that according to my sources who have been in Aarhus, Bosco was out of the music several times and really not very good. And Karabeys weren´t stiff at all. Especially in waltz, vienesse waltz and slow they have been absolutely the best couple on the floor. Of course tango isn´t their dance and quick needs some more dynamic, too.

As we all know, that there is an italian dancing studio (team diablo) influencing international dancing very much by - let´s say strange political methods - I wasn´t surprised about the result very much.

We wil see, if these methods will have success next year when the adjucators will be mixed from randomly chosen buckets.

[dancesportgirl21]

When one agrees with a result, it's always accurate and just, but when one disagrees it's almost always seen as a result of politics and corruption. Funny, huh? I wasn't there either, and will wait to see a video to form an opinion. Until then, congratulations to the couples- they've ALL obviously worked very hard.

[Laura]

As you obviously haven´t seen the competition, you should know, that according to my sources who have been in Aarhus....
So wait a minute, were YOU there? I'm guessing not, as you say you are relying on "SOURCES." Did YOU see them dance, go off time, or whatever damn sour-grapes crap you would like to continue to push on us?

I think you need a drug test, your over-argumentative style points to unnaturally high amounts of testosterone in the blood. :) Could definitely be a case of doping here....

[danceforfun]

So wait a minute, were YOU there? I'm guessing not, as you say you are relying on "SOURCES." Did YOU see them dance, go off time, or whatever damn sour-grapes crap you would like to continue to push on us?

I think you need a drug test, your over-argumentative style points to unnaturally high amounts of testosterone in the blood. :) Could definitely be a case of doping here....

Didn´t know to go to a competition here, otherwise I would have cared :raisebro: ...

Believe me, I don´t rely on ordinary fans who talk about "I liked...", but on well qualified international trainers and adjucators who were present and saw the bad play.

As it already had been known before, that the board would not be very fair, we expected that something like that could happen.

Ask the US-adjucator who didn´t comply with the others as Anne Laxholm, Christa Fenn and the chinese adjucator didn´t. They were fair and didn´t judge too positively for the Karabeys as the Italian and Russian one did without any bad conscience.

Look at my earlier examination of the marks. There´s obviously something very strange going on. There´s a big gap between the rality you can see as an international experienced and well qualified adjucator and trainer and the marks given by those persons.

And believe me, at least Anne Laxholm(former european modern champion) and Christa Fenn are famous for their fairness and qualification as international trainers and adjucators.

[swan]

Well, the Freudian slip has been corrected on idsf.net - meaning now Arunas & Edita's country is correctly stated instead of Germany as previously listed. Hmm...timing of this correction leads one to wonder what's DFF's connection w/ that...:rolleyes:

[wooh]

While we're speculating on corruption, perhaps there was corruption in the drug testing... Maybe you are paying off someone to switch Edita Daniute's urine/blood/hair samples with the samples of the meth addict that lives down the street from me? As upset about this as you are, you must have paid a lot of money!!!:artsy:

[waltzgirl]

Didn´t know to go to a competition here, otherwise I would have cared :raisebro: ...

Believe me, I don´t rely on ordinary fans who talk about "I liked...", but on well qualified international trainers and adjucators who were present and saw the bad play.

As it already had been known before, that the board would not be very fair, we expected that something like that could happen.

Ask the US-adjucator who didn´t comply with the others as Anne Laxholm, Christa Fenn and the chinese adjucator didn´t. They were fair and didn´t judge too positively for the Karabeys as the Italian and Russian one did without any bad conscience.

Look at my earlier examination of the marks. There´s obviously something very strange going on. There´s a big gap between the rality you can see as an international experienced and well qualified adjucator and trainer and the marks given by those persons.

And believe me, at least Anne Laxholm(former european modern champion) and Christa Fenn are famous for their fairness and qualification as international trainers and adjucators.

As I've said before, doping is small potatoes for potential scandal compared to what would happen if the outside world ever got a close look at ballroom judging. Makes ice skating (even the old system) look like a model of objectivity.

[swan]

As upset about this as you are, you must have paid a lot of money!!!:artsy:
:uplaugh:

[danceforfun]

While we're speculating on corruption, perhaps there was corruption in the drug testing... Maybe you are paying off someone to switch Edita Daniute's urine/blood/hair samples with the samples of the meth addict that lives down the street from me? As upset about this as you are, you must have paid a lot of money!!!:artsy:

wooohhooohooho - your jokes hurt sumetimes :uplaugh:

Besides that Edita has confessed taking the sibutramine, the italian connection is a undeniable fact. That´s no active coaching any more, its ruthless moneymaking.

I´m not talking about the usual complaining about incompetent judges. This was a world championship where young couples compete with all of their heart and time, spending a lot of money for lessions and travelling, dedicating their whole life to dancesport.

They´ve truly earned to be treated fairly and clean.

It´s disappointing for them and the audience and one of the reasons that dancing doesn´t find its place in the world of international sports.

[SDsalsaguy]

You've already made your point DFF, so lets all leave this topic be until there's any new news, ok?

[reb]

So wait a minute, were YOU there? I'm guessing not, as you say you are relying on "SOURCES." Did YOU see them dance, go off time, or whatever damn sour-grapes crap you would like to continue to push on us?

I think you need a drug test, your over-argumentative style points to unnaturally high amounts of testosterone in the blood. :) Could definitely be a case of doping here....
uh oh . . . and I thought I could blame my testosterone-related issues on genetics and how I was born . . . now you're telling me that I have to be responsible for my actions!! When will it end?;)

[samina]

I think you need a drug test, your over-argumentative style points to unnaturally high amounts of testosterone in the blood. :) Could definitely be a case of doping here....

<ggg>

[fluffy]

the italian connection is a undeniable fact.
Well there is at least 1 team diablo couple whose results were worse than expected on past form!