I Neeed Of an Opinion... [Archive]

Houdinni

11-20-2006, 03:42 PM

Hello everybody, I'd like to run something by you wich I haven't yet seen discussed in here.

Let's say you plan to start giving salsa classes, since you're moving to a new geografical area in wich you have something to offer that os new there, so it's worth to do it. You have the necessary training and skills to do so and are involved with a romantic partner who also dances salsa, but at a lesser level and has not the necessary skill to teach. Also you agree with the metodology that there should be both a male and female teacher teaching the class.

Should you:

A - Find someone else to teach with you. (Someone better skilled. You souldn't mix work with pleasure. Most relationships will come to an end sometime... etc...)

B - Shouldn't do so, because it will be something like romantically shooting yourself in the foot with a bazooka, and therefore should invest in training your partner first.

C - Something else.

I'd really like your input on this one if you have the time, and if you'll be so kind as to explain your choice, that'll be heaven on earth! :)

May give an interesting discussion...

Thanks!

delamusica

11-20-2006, 04:28 PM

Complications of a combination romantic/working relationship aside - if she's not good enough to be teaching, she shouldn't be in front of a class just because she happens to be dating you.

aimerrouge

11-20-2006, 04:30 PM

All of these are determined by the personality of your partner. It could work as long as you separate business from pleasure. Nobody wants to see you making google eyes and flirting all through class.

Does she want to teach?
If so, what level? Beginner is very different from advanced.
Is she jealous?
Would it be a problem for either of you if one of you greatly surpassed the other in terms of dancing ability?
Is she jealous?
Are you jealous?
What if she decided she wants another partner for teaching/performances?
What if you decided you want another partner for teaching/performances?
Will she be paid for her services?
Will she be paid for her services if you break up and she continues to teach?
If you break up will she still be teaching?

I think it's never best to mix business and pleasure. If you do, often it's your clients who suffer.

sweavo

11-20-2006, 05:19 PM

Yeah, this is not a salsa question (except insofar as delamusica responded) but a relationship question... and you shouldn't be asking relationship advice in a salsa forum of all places :-)

saludas

11-20-2006, 05:29 PM

If you can't teach students without the aid of a partner to show the movement, then maybe you need to rethink what you are doing. I'd be personally very wary of a teacher that could not demonstrate, and explain, both partners' movenments.

Sagitta

11-20-2006, 05:33 PM

There is a big difference between saying "Also you agree with the metodology that there should be both a male and female teacher teaching the class." that Houdini said vs "I cannot teach without a partner". Let's try and read carefully what people say as I'm a little tired of the recent spats between people over the last couple days.

Sagitta

11-20-2006, 05:39 PM

If your female partner is not up to the level of instructor and you think that is important you will be doing your students a dis-service by having her there.

I do know many instructors who have assistants...that is people who can dance...but don't have the skills to teach. This way the instructor has someone of the opposite sex to demo moves, maybe do a class warm-up..e.g salsa aerobics, but does not get into explaining to students how they can improve what they are doing so they get the ove well or breaking moves down. Sometimes the assistant is capable of getting people up to speed. For instance, you start a class and then some people show up week 3. Sinec you alreday have gone over the material your assistant knows a little about how to teach it. In this case the instructor offers to help the students to catch up if they really want to do it. Including them in his go-arounds, but leaving the rest for the assistant to do separately. Here it is clear that they are not receiving an isntructor level of instruction but it is the students choice as they really wnat to do it. That has worked as well.

Houdinni

11-20-2006, 05:55 PM

Swevo, this is both a salsa question, as it pertains to salsa, and a relationshio question because a relationship is involved, and I'm unsure if both should be mixed once you move "up" from the social dance floor. But I have great respect for this forum as regular reader, so if moderators feel the post should not be here, they have my blessing to delete it, with no harm done. Trully!

Now as to the answers alreadu posted, I intend to star with a begginer class, since the style I intend to pass is different from what most people dance there. My Line vs the Cuban that is not more comon over there.

I have no experience as a salsa teacher (other subjects yes, but as dancint instructor no) and will be receiving formation at the same time, so, I know the begginer steps for the lady, but would have difficulty with more advanced ones.

Even if she isn't at the same level in dancing, it would be easyer to teach her first (she would be available more often than anyone) , in order to have a partner to demonstrate the step being taught. When I say I agree with the metodology of both a man and a woman teaching, is because as far as my experience as a student goes, this was always the most productive scenario when assisting classes. Whenever there's only one teacher, you get only half the attention you should get, it'll take twice the time (or more) to demonstrate a step, and you'll be using someone as a partner for the demonstration that clearlly has no idea of what he/she's doing (otherwise would be giving the class not taking it). So if not her, there will deffenitle be another partner.

Aimerouge points some good questions. Whoever partners with me will be paid. I can't be absolutle sure she'd keep teaching without me, dancing yes, teaching... The others one I'll still meditate.

I do want to do a good job, and will take steps to ensure exactly that. That was the point of the post, since several people that post here also teach from what I've been following. Therefore I'm glad for any pointers in the right direction...

Houdinni

11-20-2006, 06:02 PM

Sagitta, the assistant is a good idea I hadn't thought of... Would still prefer two instructors since it's always worked best for me from the student point of view, but if unable to get someone in that geografical area, it might not be a bad solution.

nikita

11-20-2006, 06:16 PM

Knowing you I would strongly advice you not to teach together with your girl-friend...
:nope: :twisted: :bouncy: :tongue:

sweavo

11-20-2006, 06:56 PM

Swevo, this is both a salsa question, as it pertains to salsa, and a relationshio question because a relationship is involved, and I'm unsure if both should be mixed once you move "up" from the social dance floor. But I have great respect for this forum as regular reader, so if moderators feel the post should not be here, they have my blessing to delete it, with no harm done. Trully!

Sorry Houdini, I didn't really mean the topic had no place here, it was a (weak) joke suggesting that salsa dancers are not famous for their stable relationships :-)

I taught a weekly class for about a year, alternating one week with my girlfriend and one week with another close friend. When the g/f and I split up it got ... uh ... interesting ... for a while. I basically had to call off that whole series of classes to avoid the friend feeling like a traitor for covering for the ex... etc. etc. But that was my experience and it would have been completely different if any one of a number of tiny details was different. So that's why I say it's about your relationship. You have to assess how the working relationship will affect your personal relationship etc. Will you get impatient with her and say the wrong thing when planning a class? Is she gonna start wishing she had the free time but not be sure how to tell you? etc.

On the debate of whether a female is "necessary" I agree that even if the guy knows both partners' roles and the girl is too shy or inexperienced to teach, it really is helpful to have a female role model present.

Houdinni

11-21-2006, 03:02 AM

Salsa and relationships... :) Trully not knownt to go together long...

Still, your experience would point not to mix both of them, as did others. Even if now it would be easyer to teach her the main style differences than to start with someone from scratch, might pay off in the future (or present as no tension builds up) cause I'de hate to cancel a series based on external factors. Hell, no students I could handle, it would mean I just wasn't cut up for teaching, but that situation would be more unconfortable.

Still several interesting points to consider were raised here. I wonder if many people had to deal with this particular indecision. :)

Shooshoo

11-21-2006, 03:14 AM

Sorry Houdini, I didn't really mean the topic had no place here, it was a (weak) joke suggesting that salsa dancers are not famous for their stable relationships :-)

I got the joke :-), I enjoy your 'dry' sense of humour.

sweavo

11-21-2006, 05:27 AM

I got the joke :-), I enjoy your 'dry' sense of humour.

Thanks, Shoosh! It's a relief to know that!

nikita

11-21-2006, 07:37 AM

Caro-
I know a teacher who was teaching several years alone. Whenever he had to demonstrate something, he just picked a student. This went quite well for him. May be you can try this.
Big kiss
:kissme:

Paou

11-21-2006, 09:01 AM

Caro-
I know a teacher who was teaching several years alone. Whenever he had to demonstrate something, he just picked a student. This went quite well for him. May you can try this.
Big kiss
:kissme:

This works, but then how is that different to demonstrating with your girlfriend? The student you pick probably has even less of an idea than she does...

I do classes with my girlfriend, and we are in a simmilar position...

What works for us is that she just sit's off to the side until I need to demonstrate things (or actually, at the moment as we have too little men, she's taking the classes as a leader)

I also make it clear at the start of the class that she's just acting as my support assistant and is not a teacher.. if people want to question her on stuff, that's ok (as many people like her styling), but I'm the one that teaches all the footwork and following techniques... and if they have questions on anything to come to me.

nikita

11-21-2006, 09:29 AM

What works for us is that she just sit's off to the side until I need to demonstrate things (or actually, at the moment as we have too little men, she's taking the classes as a leader

I also make it clear at the start of the class that she's just acting as my support assistant and is not a teacher.. if people want to question her on stuff, that's ok (as many people like her styling), but I'm the one that teaches all the footwork and following techniques... and if they have questions on anything to come to me.

Dear Paou-
with all my respect-
but that's exactly the situation I try to avoid for Houdinnis girl-friend:nope:

delamusica

11-21-2006, 09:41 AM

When I taught a large group class by myself, I did things like this:

Leaders on one side of me, Followers on the other.

Teach the followers their step first. Then pick a girl and talk her through it slowly dancing with me, so that the leaders and followers can learn together what the general idea of the step is.

Then to the leaders - "this is how you get her to do that." That way the girls could practice their footwork along (which often involved more spins and steps per figure) as I was going through the guys steps and leads. Sometimes, depending on the step, I'd demonstrate it as a follow with one of the leaders from class at this point. Then I'd have them all dance it without partners a time or two, increasing the tempo, then a time or two without partners but with music.

Then we'd all do the figure together with partners and with music - all at once. I'd say something like "one basic, one underarm turn, and one basic" for learning the underarm turn, for example, so that they would know that they should all end together. We'd try that a couple of times, then I'd ask for questions.

Often after they had a chance to try it with a partner, they'd ask to be shown their respective parts again as they were processing the new step now from the perspective of having tried it with a partner. So I'd show the parts again, then turn on music for them to practice the new step for a few minutes while I walked around to help individuals.

Then separate the leaders and followers to learn the next step - usually only one or two steps per dance (two hour classes, two dances per class).

This was a very, very large group of rank beginners, though. You may be able to do something else if it's better suited to the size and abilities of the group you have.

This is just an example of how teaching without a partner can work. In my experience, it helped both the leaders and followers when I walked a follower through the step with a partner for the first time. Made them a little more confident that they could make it work to see someone else from the class get through it.

Also, getting members of the class in front of each other, able to see each other make mistakes as they're learning and realizing that it's okay to do so helped make them all more comfortable trying new things and contributed to a sense of collective learning.

If you're teaching people with some dance background, though, that may not be as much of an issue.

borikensalsero

11-21-2006, 12:55 PM

I think that ultimately a student can benefit the most with both female and male instructors present.

It never matters how well an instructor can interchange roles, it is an excellent idea to have the "natural" leader and follower act-out their roles for students' benefit. There are students who have personal issues being taught by a same gender instructor, to ease those concerns, the presence of an opposite sex instructor can be invaluable. Plus, the second line of thoughts and ideas that may come from the opposite sex instructor can present views absent by the other instructor.

Houdinni

11-21-2006, 02:16 PM

Thanks Boriken! I was starting to think I was alone on this!

IMHO you get about twice the value with two instructors. Even aside of having 2 views, each instructor has two watch more carefully only about half the students, wich means that from the student point of view you get twice the atention or "instructor time". Leads will be more precise on teaching leading steps, and follows will be the same. No matter how good you can exchage rolls, you're never quite as good in the role that's not your own. At least I think so.

And it doesn't matter that the step will be taught twice (at the very least once for each role), beacause if you have two qualified instructors, you get to use both times to learn. Even if the role being taught is ot you own... I always founf classe with two professional instrutors more profitable. Am I alone on this view of things? (And Nikita since you know my role models you know why I think so...)

Wich gets me back to the original point, if I trully wich to teach with a partner are the disadvantages I should be aware in using a GF?

delamusica

11-21-2006, 02:20 PM

If you're going to be dancing with a female partner so she can be an example/role-model for your students, you should be doing it with the best female dancer available to you.

It does not sound like this is your girlfriend.

Otherwise, your students are not really gaining anything by her.

aimerrouge

11-21-2006, 04:19 PM

Paou

11-21-2006, 07:53 PM

Dear Paou-
with all my respect-
but that's exactly the situation I try to avoid for Houdinnis girl-friend:nope:

Well, if you know houdinnis' other half well enough to be able to say that then fine, but I was just pointing out that it's worked very well for us for a long time now.. it depends on the people involved.

On a different note:

Thinking about what Delamusica said, the "best female" to teach classes with is not neccesarily the "best dancer" in your scene... One of, if not THE most imortant thing is the attitude of your partner to the students, and whether she's a good coach.

For me, there's actually very few people I would trust to do regular classes with, regardless of their skill on the floor.

Lastly, there was a simmilar thread somewhere discussing having a "primary" and "secondary" teacher in classes that might benefit this discussion.. I'll see if I can find it.

delamusica

11-21-2006, 08:01 PM

I agree that the best dancer is not always the best teacher.

But I was under the impression that he was looking for someone to demonstrate moves.

For that purpose, you would want simply the best dancer.

However, it sounds like his girlfriend is neither the best dancer or at a point where she should be teaching.

I would be very angry if I payed money for a class and my teacher was demonstrating steps for the class with his beginner-dancer girlfriend. Very angry. I would want my money back.

Just my opinion.

Paou

11-21-2006, 08:21 PM

I would be very angry if I payed money for a class and my teacher was demonstrating steps for the class with his beginner-dancer girlfriend. Very angry. I would want my money back.

Just my opinion.

I definately agree.

I don't actually know her level compared to the level of others in the local scene, I am assuming that she is a good enough level for this to be a nonissue....

The point I was making was less about her level as a dancer, and more that it works for us "in our relationship."

Depends which side we're talking here.. :)

Paou

11-21-2006, 08:42 PM

Wich gets me back to the original point, if I trully wich to teach with a partner are the disadvantages I should be aware in using a GF?

Well, for me there has been no disadvantage... However my GF just wants to dance socially and not be known as a "teacher", and dispite the fact we try to emphasise that I'm the teacher in class I think she still feels more pressured when out dancing...

So I guess my advice is to make sure she feels comfortable with whatever arrangement you end up with, and that she's aware that whatever happens there will be more "eyes" on her than before.

squirrel

11-22-2006, 02:52 AM

Hmmm... interesting situation. I'd pick someone interested to teach with me and be known as a teacher. :)

On the other hand, I've run into the opposite situation. I am currently teaching with my BF. I know I am a good teacher (I've been told and I've also seen the results) and a good dancer (LOL). One of the best female teachers in the scene.

My BF is thinking to go to this TV show to teach beginner moves. He was invited to. Well, the issue is apparently it doesn't matter how good a teacher or a dancer I am, what matters is that, well, he would need someone who looks better than I do. Some tall, slim, gorgeous bimbo. She has to be a good dancer as well, of course.

I am offended. Wouldn't you be???

sweavo

11-22-2006, 05:15 AM

I am offended. Wouldn't you be???

Television people are evil. That's all you need to know. Want to form the Federation of Non-Photogenic Dancers?

Houdinni

11-22-2006, 05:33 AM

I was trying to hint at this when I responded earlier. You hit the nail on the head.

I'm a big boy, so strait answer for an honest question is fine by me...thanks! :D

I definately agree.

I don't actually know her level compared to the level of others in the local scene, I am assuming that she is a good enough level for this to be a nonissue....

She's not the best dancer in the scene, but as the scene is still in the midstages of development, she's probably considered advanced by regional standards. Were this in Lisbon, for example, and the standards for advanced dancers would be much higher...

Still, she could be made into the best teacher, but appart from being easyer to find time slots to work together, the same can be sais about anyone else...

Well, for me there has been no disadvantage... However my GF just wants to dance socially and not be known as a "teacher", and dispite the fact we try to emphasise that I'm the teacher in class I think she still feels more pressured when out dancing...

So I guess my advice is to make sure she feels comfortable with whatever arrangement you end up with, and that she's aware that whatever happens there will be more "eyes" on her than before.

This is an interesting point. Since I'm completly indiferent to it yself, for never worrying too much about what other people think it think it was in the back of my mind waiting to come to consciouness...

Paou, if you can find the thread I'll be most interested. (I haven't seen this theme discussed here, but I've only follow this forum for about a year if there are any related threads and anyone has tips, I'll try to find them)

Hmmm... interesting situation. I'd pick someone interested to teach with me and be known as a teacher. :)

On the other hand, I've run into the opposite situation. I am currently teaching with my BF. I know I am a good teacher (I've been told and I've also seen the results) and a good dancer (LOL). One of the best female teachers in the scene.

My BF is thinking to go to this TV show to teach beginner moves. He was invited to. Well, the issue is apparently it doesn't matter how good a teacher or a dancer I am, what matters is that, well, he would need someone who looks better than I do. Some tall, slim, gorgeous bimbo. She has to be a good dancer as well, of course.

I am offended. Wouldn't you be???

Actually I would! Even knowing that TV are image maniacs...

But if you change "Some tall, slim, gorgeous bimbo" to "Some tall, slim, gorgeous redhead", doesn't that make it... well... you?! :D

squirrel

11-23-2006, 02:41 PM

I'm a big boy, so strait answer for an honest question is fine by me...thanks! :D

She's not the best dancer in the scene, but as the scene is still in the midstages of development, she's probably considered advanced by regional standards. Were this in Lisbon, for example, and the standards for advanced dancers would be much higher...

Still, she could be made into the best teacher, but appart from being easyer to find time slots to work together, the same can be sais about anyone else...

This is an interesting point. Since I'm completly indiferent to it yself, for never worrying too much about what other people think it think it was in the back of my mind waiting to come to consciouness...

Paou, if you can find the thread I'll be most interested. (I haven't seen this theme discussed here, but I've only follow this forum for about a year if there are any related threads and anyone has tips, I'll try to find them)

Actually I would! Even knowing that TV are image maniacs...

But if you change "Some tall, slim, gorgeous bimbo" to "Some tall, slim, gorgeous redhead", doesn't that make it... well... you?! :D

LOL

No, that would make me. Not unless you consider 1.5 m tall and 52 kgs slim

Houdinni

11-24-2006, 04:07 AM

Well, 1.5m is not quite tall, but 52...

I guess I'll just have to change to a slim gorgeous redhead then... :)

squirrel

11-24-2006, 06:13 AM

LOL

I should hire you as my agent then...

nikita

11-24-2006, 08:40 AM

My be Squirrel would like to teach for a while in Portugal? Typo: Houdinni&Squirrel:p ..........How about that??????????????
Squirrel- I am sure, you would like it!

samina

11-24-2006, 10:03 AM

Hi Houdini,

FWIW, I've never had a salsa lesson taught by a male/female pair, and I've studied with some of the best. I don't see the need for it at all...

Stop complicating things for yourself & just teach, if that's what you want to do... :D

You can pick female students out of the lesson for demos, either whoever's best or whoever's closest, it really does not matter.

Samina
:)

samina

11-24-2006, 10:07 AM

I know the begginer steps for the lady, but would have difficulty with more advanced ones.

If you're going to teach, you do need to know the steps down pat for both parts. Maybe you could start teaching the beginner steps and, meanwhile, practice with your partner to learn the more advanced ones.

Would be good for her -- she'd learn how to lead and would also naturally become a better dancer herself!

sweavo

11-24-2006, 11:25 AM

I recently taught a bunch of beginner classes without a female accomplice, and while I enjoyed the freedom to break from lesson plan (and keeping all the cash) it's not been good that the only role model the girls had was one another, or me camping it up! The feminine stylistic elements can only be really felt from a female so unless you have a particularly naturally talented student in your class, the girls will have little idea of how to carry themselves and what kind of styling looks good on a woman.

nikita

11-24-2006, 11:51 AM

I can lend him one of my lady styling dvd's:p .

dosvueltas

11-25-2006, 02:47 AM

Yeah, this is not a salsa question (except insofar as delamusica responded) but a relationship question... and you shouldn't be asking relationship advice in a salsa forum of all places :-)

I agree and disagree. Sure it's a relationship question. However as far as the context of teaching salsa goes I think many of us who are instructors have experience that could be useful guidelines for him. I sure wish I could have asked this question three years ago. Would have saved me a lot of grief both relationship- and salsa-wise.

dosvueltas

11-25-2006, 02:54 AM

The feminine stylistic elements can only be really felt from a female so unless you have a particularly naturally talented student in your class, the girls will have little idea of how to carry themselves and what kind of styling looks good on a woman.

I agree absolutely. Most times when guys think of classes they think of new turn patterns. I think this could work in an intermediate/ advanced level class if the ladies coming to learn already have good fundamentals.

However you've hit it exactly on the head that it is the stylistic elements that would benefit a girl coming to class even of a high following ability, and those are things that are best taught by an advanced teacher who dances and practises day in and day out as a follow.

A guy who can follow even at a high level doesn't usually exude that extra something that comes from the yin of femininity. To do a CBLT perfectly is one thing, to do it in a sensual way that makes learners go WOW is a different thing altogether.

A good example is Supermario's classes. When he came down here to teach alone three years ago, lots of ladies felt they didn't really learn much. When he came down last year with Susana, all my lady friends left the workshop with smiles on their faces, can couldn't wait to try out some of the stuff Susana was teaching. I believe that in fairness to ensure that BOTH LE and FO learn something from the class, it should always be taught be a couple of teachers so that both genders get something out of the class.