"routines" for freestyles?

[VinceraVivere]

I have a question for all of you who compete in open and closed freestyle heats.

Is it common to have a set routine out for each freestyle you dance? Even at bronze level, though not necessarily.

At the Ohio Star Ball, my teacher and I danced full bronze and pre-silver American everything, and bronze International everything. I also danced in the Junior American Smooth world championship (we had no business being out there!) and we had NO ROUTINES for anything. We just went out there and freestyled everything.

That's how we've always done it, and I've always felt uncomfortable with it, but I never said anything because I figured that's how it was done. I never knew any better - this was only my second year at Ohio, and I've only been dancing for about a year and a half. So I never knew any better, but when I was talking to people from other studios, they were horrified - they said that most people have routines for everything, especially when it gets past the Bronze level.

So what are you guys' opinions - do you usually have routines set out for every freestyle? Because all we do is run through the patterns a few times and call it a day. Do I have a right to be dissatisfied?

Thanks for your thoughts!

-Sarah

[waltzgirl]

I would say, AFAIK, almost all ballroom competitors at every level dance routines (or base their dancing on routines, in the case of smooth and standard where they need to adjust for floorcraft at times).

[fascination]

welcome to DF...most do have routines or know each other so well that they might as well be routines...I don't know about "right to be disatisfied", but I'd be concerned...again, welcome

[mamboqueen]

I have done both, although I actually prefer lead-and-follow.

[fascination]

gasp...ya mean the way you're supposed to do it?...or as pro reminds, it's still possible (in theory) to lead and follow w/a routine

[mamboqueen]

gasp...ya mean the way you're supposed to do it?...or as pro reminds, it's still possible (in theory) to lead and follow w/a routine

my former teacher would only do a routine in paso. he didn't want me to get used to routines...and I'm grateful for it. new teacher uses routines in paso and samba, but otherwise, I'm primarily on my own. there are certain moves that always go together for me at this level, alemana + hip twist or alemana + rope spin, fan + hockey stick, etc., so sometimes I'm prone to jump the gun. But, it's much better for me to not know what is coming as I tend to either be ahead or flat out lead the move myself!

[fascination]

agree...at a certain point it doesn't matter...I know what his meesage is either way, but as a newb at ohio, I would say it would be a disadvantage, though in the long run making for a better dancer....in my case, when ya dance this many hours a week with someone, ya know waaaaaay to much about what's gonna happen either way

[mamboqueen]

agree...at a certain point it doesn't matter...I know what his meesage is either way, but as a newb at ohio, I would say it would be a disadvantage, though in the long run making for a better dancer....in my case, when ya dance this many hours a week with someone, ya know waaaaaay to much about what's gonna happen either way

I'm sure you know far more than you care to! :cool:

[fascination]

yea, and worse yet, so does he...very annoying...

ANYHOW, bottom line, if it ain't broke...

[misteria]

Until bronze I never had routines. Now my teacher and I have few routines in each dance and level, but he always forgets them and dances some weird combination of all of them and I still have to follow.
Frankly, I wouldn't compete now without knowing my routines beforehand. I guess it's ok at bronze or pre-silver level where there is limited number of steps you're doing and you have distinct leads. It's harder in open, where in latin you often don't even touch your partner, and in standard you have soooo many possibilities, and yet the lead is not that clear.

[fascination]

hmm...as hard as standard is...I find the lead clearest there...granted I am only in pre to intermedeiate silver just now...but I find it hardest to mess up in standard (at least in the steps, not the shapes)

[Chris Stratton]

There is little that is not ultimately leadable in standard, but there is a lot that is easier to initially survive if you both know what it is going to be.

[fascination]

agree, awfully nice when it isn't a wrestling match

[SlowDancer]

When I was competing in country western, we always had set "routines" but my ballroom teacher and I just had amalgamations/patterns but not really an honest-to-Pete routine.

I prefer learning actual routines for a competition. It feels more like performing, whereas lead-and-follow just feels like social dancing in a front of a lot of people. Which is not a bad thing, but I like the challenge of memorizing a routine (and hoping that neither I nor my teacher forgets it in the heat of the moment).

:-)

[tanya_the_dancer]

We practice things in a certain order (especially for standard), so in that sense we have routines, but I have to be ready for traffic-avoiding maneuvers, so in that sense it is still lead and follow.

[mamboqueen]

We practice things in a certain order (especially for standard), so in that sense we have routines, but I have to be ready for traffic-avoiding maneuvers, so in that sense it is still lead and follow.

And that would be part of my fear with set routines...there's always the chance something will get interrupted because of traffic. I personally would have panic set in.

[Me]

It is, ideally, a mixture between improv and choreography. You need to dance naturally but at the same time, throw some fancy moves in there that are mostly unleadable. If there is no improv, then you become 'locked' into your choreography, and may end up running out of floor space and having no place to go, but are slave to your choreography, or you end up bumping into other dancers, who are likewise slamming into you because they are also locked into choreography.

You've got to mix it up though. I've seen people do the same choreography OVER and OVER again, and it looks BAD. One local quack around here is too lazy (or too stupid) to retain a multitude of choreographies, so he teaches all of his amateurs the SAME ROUTINE. Then (get this) he proceeds to dance the same choreographies across all of the smooths. (Yes, he dances the same choreography from foxtrot into waltz and TANGO.) It looks bad, especially in three dance challenges, and other students who are watching him closely enough in the competitions laugh at him. I don't understand why his ladies continue to give him their business.

[fascination]

I rather enjoy having a routine messed up due to floor craft...its an excellent chance to see how we do...I always feel very proud of that

[tanya_the_dancer]

And that would be part of my fear with set routines...there's always the chance something will get interrupted because of traffic. I personally would have panic set in.

I try to focus on not jumping the gun, even if I know a certain move is coming. And also, with standard on a bronze level, there are not as many options you can do after each pattern.

[VinceraVivere]

Ick. The same choreography for every dance? That would be awful.

So in you guys' experience, it should ideally be a mixture of both? Sorry if I sound like a complete idiot. I'm just trying to get a feel of how most people do it.

From the impression I got from a few other people I talked to that used to compete, they were absolutely horrified that we didn't have any sort of choreography.

I understand that choreography needs to be flexible so you can maneuver around the floor when other people are in your way. But I feel that we should be more prepared than just running through the patterns a few times before we get on the floor - in Viennese, he was leading an away-together-away move in open that I couldn't feel him lead me out of. And in int'l Rumba, he didn't lead a SINGLE hip twist - he kept trying to take me into crossovers whereas I thought he was doing hip twists.

He's *****ing at me out on the floor, which doesn't help at all....so next lesson I'm going to ask him to set out at least SOME chreography for each dance. I'd asked for that before, and all my teachers keep telling me is "it's freestyles, just dance. Just dance it! Just go out there and follow."

But I think having a routine or at least a set of steps we're going to do set out beforehand would help.

So now the question is how to tell him this without him getting all offended - as i said, I've tried to ask before, and they made out like routines aren't how things are done. Which I suppose makes sense if you're taking "freestyle" literally - but no one scored well this year, and we were all unprepared....

[contracheck]

It is, ideally, a mixture between improv and choreography. You need to dance naturally but at the same time, throw some fancy moves in there that are mostly unleadable. If there is no improv, then you become 'locked' into your choreography, and may end up running out of floor space and having no place to go, but are slave to your choreography, or you end up bumping into other dancers, who are likewise slamming into you because they are also locked into choreography.


To me, this is a statement of high eloquence. Dance choreography is like giving a pubic speech. In early days, I wrote down every word I want to say in my speeches and locked into those words without flexibility. I paniced when I forgot the untended words. Such speeches are rigid and unnatural. If something unexpected happens in the room during the speech, I panic. Now, I just devlop major themes and deliver speeches as natural as possible, interacting with the audience. Even if I deviate from my original mental notes, the audience doesn't know it because they don't know what I am going to say anyway. To me dancing is more or less the same. If I am engrssosed in a routine in a competition, I am so concerned about what the next steps are, my move become unnatural and timid, and as the result I forget to smile or keep clean topline. When that happens, my coach keeps on sending me signals to smile and keep shoulders down, but the priority in my mind is my next step and not smile. The dance can survive without smiles but it can't without ateps. Now, I tell my coach to stay loose because in case I forget my routine, I will do something basic till I remeber my routine. As in speeches, the audience or the judges don't know what our rouine is. I don't know about other dancers but my mind often completley go blank in the middle of dance in fast dances like Quick Step or Paso.

[Laura]

I had routines after I had done Bronze in a few competitions. Routines are good teaching tools, especially if you are doing Pro/Am and need to practice and dance rounds on your own as part of preparing to compete, but the real fun for me is when I'm dancing well enough that TT can just go off and do whatever and I'm right there as comfortable and responsive as when we're on the routine.

[tanya_the_dancer]

To me, this is a statement of high eloquence. Dance choreography is like giving a pubic speech. In early days, I wrote down every word I want to say in my speeches and locked into those words without flexibility. I paniced when I forgot the untended words. Such speeches are rigid and unnatural. If something unexpected happens in the room during the speech, I panic. Now, I just devlop major themes and deliver speeches as natural as possible, interacting with the audience. Even if I deviate from my original mental notes, the audience doesn't know it because they don't know what I am going to say anyway. To me dancing is more or less the same. If I am engrssosed in a routine in a competition, I am so concerned about what the next steps are, my move become unnatural and timid, and as the result I forget to smile or keep clean topline. When that happens, my coach keeps on sending me signals to smile and keep shoulders down, but the priority in my mind is my next step and not smile. The dance can survive without smiles but it can't without ateps. Now, I tell my coach to stay loose because in case I forget my routine, I will do something basic till I remeber my routine. As in speeches, the audience or the judges don't know what our rouine is. I don't know about other dancers but my mind often completley go blank in the middle of dance in fast dances like Quick Step or Paso.

My mind goes blank when I am nervous. And when that happens, I probably am better off when things are done as close as possible to how we did them when we were practicing.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I had routines after I had done Bronze in a few competitions. Routines are good teaching tools, especially if you are doing Pro/Am and need to practice and dance rounds on your own as part of preparing to compete, but the real fun for me is when I'm dancing well enough that TT can just go off and do whatever and I'm right there as comfortable and responsive as when we're on the routine.

:) Laura, you making me nervous with that TT thing. ;) I feel like you're talking about me.

[waltzgirl]

He's *****ing at me out on the floor, which doesn't help at all....

I'd be more concerned about this than about routines. That's really awful! Not only does it make the whole experience no fun, but it looks bad. The judges notice and he might as well be yelling out to them, "Hey, look oiver here! She's making mistakes!" It's just not professional.

One of the reasons routines are helpful in pro-am is that actual practice time is limited. Most of the lessons, hopefully, are spent on teaching, so you don't have that much time where you are just practicing lead and follow with your instructor.

[Me]

He's *****ing at me out on the floor, which doesn't help at all....so next lesson I'm going to ask him to set out at least SOME chreography for each dance. I'd asked for that before, and all my teachers keep telling me is "it's freestyles, just dance. Just dance it! Just go out there and follow."


Do you mean to say your professional is verbally abusive toward you? If so, DUMP HIM LIKE YESTERDAY'S GARBAGE. It is NOT NORMAL for him to treat you like that.

One professional I know resorts to abusive language, painful hand squeezing, and hard pinching with some of his ladies on the competition floor. Generally he will overwhelm them before they hit the floor with complicated steps they've never practiced before, then curse them, squeeze them, and aggressively lead them when they mess up. These women whisper their confessions to other dancers and in some cases, other professionals, but NOTHING is ever done to stop his behavior, and these women continue to study with him. I can only figure that there must be something deeply pathological on both the part of the teacher and client. Perhaps these women are, from past experiences, conditioned to accept abuse, and this pro preys upon this helplessness? I honestly don't understand it.

[Me]

To me, this is a statement of high eloquence.

You're not talking about me, are you? *blush!*

[fascination]

abuse can run either way ... and ya never know...different people see it differently...I know woman whose pro I would call abusive and she gushes over him...so who am I to judge...I also have seen Ams treat their pros like garbage..
anyhow, back to the topic....

are routines a good idea...?

based on the OPs last post, I think the biggest issue is one of a certain lack of preparedness, if in fact the pro brought many ladies to the last comp and all did poorly...that does not speak well for the pro...it is my experience that most competitive dancers have some sort of fixed yet flexible choreography, for many good reasons

[VinceraVivere]

I had routines after I had done Bronze in a few competitions. Routines are good teaching tools, especially if you are doing Pro/Am and need to practice and dance rounds on your own as part of preparing to compete, but the real fun for me is when I'm dancing well enough that TT can just go off and do whatever and I'm right there as comfortable and responsive as when we're on the routine.

The thing there is, I'm not that good yet, and he seems to think I am - and any attempt to convince him otherwise, they talk about how I'm putting myself down, etc. I'm just being realistic, IMHO.

he's not verbally abusive or anything, but just stuff like "Come on, move it!" "Get yourself together." "Hold yourself up." etc, etc.

Which might not constitute real yelling, but it doesn't help when I'm already unsure and not at all confident - then he complains to the other teacher how I have "such an attitude" while I dance and I'm not giving it all I should, when in reality I'm trying my very hardest. It just wasn't a good experience at all.

And really, not many people did well out of everyone we brought, and it WAS a lack of preparedness. We have been begging him for months to get out solo routines together and work with us on freestyles trust me, we'll get it done."

My friend had to perform a solo on Tuesday - they FINISHED the choreography the Sunday before we left, 2 days before they had to perform it. It was ridiculous.

I guess this has morphed from a question of routines to a question of preparedness. What do you guys do to prepare for a competition - what do you work on, how many weeks in advence are you ready, etc.?

Thanks again for all the replies and opinions!

[fascination]

lots of threads on that VV if you do a search...not that folks won't respond as they see fit, but you might want to access those old threads

[VinceraVivere]

I'll try that, thanks. I'm still getting used to everything around here, but this place is great so far! I'm surprised at the amount of opinions and replies for every thread, and I really appreciate it. It's nice to get some outside opinions after being so isolated.

[fascination]

glad to hear it...make yourself at home

[Laura]

I guess this has morphed from a question of routines to a question of preparedness. What do you guys do to prepare for a competition - what do you work on, how many weeks in advence are you ready, etc.?
In some ways one is never ready, but in other ways one can always be reasonably ready.

I dance in a competition nearly every month, so I'm always in a state of reasonable readiness. What you might want to do is ask yourself what you don't feel ready about.

Do you feel overwhelmed by the number of styles you are doing, plus solos? Then cut back to a workload you are comfortable with. There's no need to do everything, just pick your favorite style and concentrate on that for a while so that you'll feel more prepared.

Do you feel physically fit enough to dance your competitive events the way you want to? If not, then do some cardio training on the side.

Do you feel mentally fit enough to dance your competitive events the way you want to? If not, then I recommend trying visualization techniques where you sit quietly and imagine every bit if what it's like to compete, from the time you are standing in the on-deck area, all through your dances, to the time you walk off the floor. Keep doing that and seeing where you get "stuck", and try to work through what stops you.

Do you feel unprepared technique-wise? Just keep in mind that, to some extent, a lot of people feel this way all the time. No matter how much you learn about dancing, there is always more to learn and always more to improve on. It helps to have your competitive events videoed so you can not only see what you are doing, but you can also get glances as to how your dancing compares to what the others on your level are doing. As far as improving your technique, it helps me to sit down with my teacher and talk about what we're going to focus on between competitions. We make a list, and I keep it with me so we can refer to it on lessons. Then, when we watch the video from the next competition, we look at the list and see what progress I've made on the areas I was focusing on.

[fascination]

thanks for doing all of the heavy lifting around here Laura...what well thought out advice