The Humbug Thread

[bordertangoman]

Once in Royal David's City stood a lonely cattle shed,
Where a mother held her baby.
You'd do well to remember the things he later said.
When you're stuffing yourselves at the christmas parties,
Youll just laugh when I tell you to take a running jump.
Youre missing the point I'm sure does not need making
That Christmas spirit is not what you drink.

So how can you laugh when your own mother's hungry,
And how can you smile when the reasons for smiling are wrong?
And if I just messed up your thoughtless pleasures,
Remember, if you wish, this is just a christmas song.

(hey! santa! pass us that bottle, will you? )

Jethro Tull

This is the place for Scrooges, Grinches and anyone else who is disenchanted with the hype surrounding Christmas.......

rant away

[fascination]

have that CD...looooooooooooooooooooove it

[bordertangoman]

Yes Jethro Tull are/were a great band my favourite albums are Passion Play, Minstrel in the Gallery and Aqualung.

[ccc]

Not exactly my favorite time of year either.

The crowds and the traffic are unbearable.

The only time I've ever really enjoyed Christmas was when my kids were young and had more fun playing in the boxes the gifts came in than with the gifts.

Maybe I'll just get them some boxes this year and see what happens. :)

[bordertangoman]

Not exactly my favorite time of year either.

The crowds and the traffic are unbearable.

The only time I've ever really enjoyed Christmas was when my kids were young and had more fun playing in the boxes the gifts came in than with the gifts.

Maybe I'll just get them some boxes this year and see what happens. :)


Exactement: our expectations are just too high when we can enjoy each other's company with simplest of household objects; my daughter loves banging my saucepans! The most precious thing we can give our children is our time, our love but you can't wrap that up.

[Joe]

Bah!

[bordertangoman]

"If I could work my will," said Scrooge indignantly, "every idiot who goes about with 'Merry Christmas' on his lips, should be boiled with his own pudding, and buried with a stake of holly through his heart. He should!"

Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol

[fascination]

them's fightin words, but this is your thread so I'll just mosey over to the Christmas thread...fa lalalalalalalala la

[bordertangoman]

them's fightin words, but this is your thread so I'll just mosey over to the Christmas thread...fa lalalalalalalala la


not without a twinkle in my eye though :wink:

this is not an anti- Christmas thread just a rant against what's wrong with it.

Like f'rinstance most things look a lot prettier in the shop windows than they ever will in your home.
And the pleasure of making home decorations gifts and so forth is being lost to commercial prettifiers who do nice things but leave us bereft of the preparatory pleasures.

[fascination]

aww..., I know BTM, and I agree...I have promised myself that this year will be deliberate and thoughtful...one of my favorite things to do (as mentioned long ago) are to buy as many of the obligatory gifts via charities (let me plug two: heartbeats and ministry of the arts), the proceeds for which go to those who made them and who are generally persons struggling in one way or another...that way when I have to get gifts for various ingrates, their crappy response won't bother me b/c I know I spent my money wisely...

[samina]

"If I could work my will," said Scrooge indignantly, "every idiot who goes about with 'Merry Christmas' on his lips, should be boiled with his own pudding, and buried with a stake of holly through his heart. He should!"

Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol

blimey, btm!

i'm not big on christmas, but not into bashing it either... it's just like any other time of the year for me, except a little bit more sparkly...which i happen to like at any old time!

[fascination]

ah, but but read his subsequent post to me, and the words of the jethro tull song...he'd just like it to be what is should be...who could disagree with that?

[samina]

oh, thanks for the headsup, f... how'd i miss that -- i'm usually pretty thorough

love your qualifier, tangoman! i tend to find that stores look garish with all their earnest "buy me for the holidays!" product placement.

so i guess the way i deal with it is that i for the most part don't look. <g> i tend to just let in only the parts i want to be a part of my reality, and i veer away from the rest.

love those sparkly lights but i look away at the new fashion of blowup santas on people's front lawns.

hideous. just hideous..

[fascination]

my children are ever complaining that we don't look like we celebrate christmas...meh, they can waste their money on all of that crap when they grow up , if they want....

[samina]

yah, if i wanna waste my money i'll buy yet another pair of sparkly earrings!
lol

back in the day when i was filled-to-bursting w/ holiday spirit, i used to get such a kick out of my kids' christmas lists. now they're about as into that sort of thing as i am.

and besides, my only answer is ever "sparkly earrings"... lol

[chachachacat]

aww..., I know BTM, and I agree...I have promised myself that this year will be deliberate and thoughtful...one of my favorite things to do (as mentioned long ago) are to buy as many of the obligatory gifts via charities (let me plug two: heartbeats and ministry of the arts), the proceeds for which go to those who made them and who are generally persons struggling in one way or another...that way when I have to get gifts for various ingrates, their crappy response won't bother me b/c I know I spent my money wisely...

kudos! very wise and kind.

[DancePoet]

Exactement: our expectations are just too high when we can enjoy each other's company with simplest of household objects; my daughter loves banging my saucepans! The most precious thing we can give our children is our time, our love but you can't wrap that up.
And doing something with your time is key. ;)

[DancePoet]

"If I could work my will," said Scrooge indignantly, "every idiot who goes about with 'Merry Christmas' on his lips, should be boiled with his own pudding, and buried with a stake of holly through his heart. He should!"

Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol
Even Scrooge is turned around by the end of the story. ;)

Which just goes to show ... life is what you make of it. :cool:

[DancePoet]

not without a twinkle in my eye though :wink:

this is not an anti- Christmas thread just a rant against what's wrong with it.

Like f'rinstance most things look a lot prettier in the shop windows than they ever will in your home.
And the pleasure of making home decorations gifts and so forth is being lost to commercial prettifiers who do nice things but leave us bereft of the preparatory pleasures.
Making the holidays merry doesn't need to be full of commercialism. ;)

[fascination]

kudos! very wise and kind.thanks, while the one(ministry of the arts) is rather religious in nature (a heads up to the curious)...the other(heartbeats) has plenty to choose from that has no particular overtones...I enjoy both for different reasons

[bordertangoman]

Making the holidays merry doesn't need to be full of commercialism. ;)


or BOOZE

As its World Aids Day and 1000 children a day are dying in mozambique for want of the right drugs I find it hard to consider being merry whilst others, so many others, are sufferring unnecassarily

[DancePoet]

or BOOZE
True.

[As its World Aids Day and 1000 children a day are dying in mozambique for want of the right drugs I find it hard to consider being merry whilst others, so many others, are sufferring unnecassarily
Being merry and doing something to help your cause doesn't need to be mutually exclusive. ;)

[bordertangoman]

True.


Being merry and doing something to help your cause doesn't need to be mutually exclusive. ;)


true, that just makes me a miserable old grinch :wink:

[Peaches]

As its World Aids Day and 1000 children a day are dying in mozambique for want of the right drugs I find it hard to consider being merry whilst others, so many others, are sufferring unnecassarily

BTM, while I agree with you to an extent, the cynical part of me would like to point out that there will always be suffering in the world. While I don't believe that it's right to go through life blithely unaware and uncaring without making an effort to help others (just my opinion--not a judgement!), I've also come to realize that I won't be able to help the situation any by not rejoicing in what fortune I do have.

This is not to say that I don't help (DH and I do support certain charities), it's not to say that I don't stop to consider the plight of others with sadness and reverence. But I've learned that denying myself merriness/happiness is not the way to go about it. To me, it's like turning my back and being un-grateful for what I do have.

I'm reminded of my grandfather's funeral. Obviously, it was a very sad affair. But my littlest (at the time) cousin was only 2 or so, and really didn't understand what was going on. So she was enjoying herself, as kids do, afterwards. Everyone was very sad and heartbroken, but there are times when you just couldn't help but smile or laugh at/with her. It wasn't disrespect to my grandfather or my grandmother (still alive), just the realization that there was still joy and beauty and happiness in the world, and denying it wouldn't do anything to mitigate the pain of my grandfather's death.

[samina]

As its World Aids Day and 1000 children a day are dying in mozambique for want of the right drugs I find it hard to consider being merry whilst others, so many others, are sufferring unnecassarily

i hear ya, tangoman... there's so much out there that is painfully sobering.

but i think there is an untold amount of suffering occurring in every moment on the planet. it is easy to find, and far more prevalent than even mainstream news reflects.

it can break my heart to know that, but i think it's also the paradox of life that joyfulness can live side-by-side with tragedy & sorrow.

there's so much to be hopeful for even while there's so much that's wrong...
:)

[bordertangoman]

Stupidity is the triumph of hope over experience

[samina]

Stupidity is the triumph of hope over experience

hope is the triumph of experience over stupidity...
;)

[fascination]

Stupidity is the triumph of hope over experience
I don't want to live in a world where that is true...I will give up just about anything, but I CAN'T become that rational...there is positively no place for transcendence there, one can be deliberately "stupid" with their eyes wide open, and it really has nothing to do with stupidity:cool: and it changes things you old grinch;)

[bordertangoman]

triumph is the experience of hope over stupidity ...

[Peaches]

Eso!

[samina]

triumph is the experience of hope over stupidity ...

oooo, now that's a nice one, btm! :)

[Zhena]

The original quote is from Samuel Johnson (1700s) - a second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.

[samina]

The original quote is from Samuel Johnson (1700s) - a second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.

that's nice.

not enuf to make me venture into a 2nd marriage, but nice all the same
;)

[bordertangoman]

"Joy, christmas Eve. By this time tomorrow, millions of Americans, knee deep in tinsel and wrapping paper, will utter those heartfelt words: 'Is this all I got?"

Kelsey Grammar

or

"the road to hell is paved with unwanted Christmas Presents"

[fascination]

that's nice.

not enuf to make me venture into a 2nd marriage, but nice all the same
;);) probably you can do the truimph part without the piece of paper...easier if the triumph wears off

[Peaches]

"Joy, christmas Eve. By this time tomorrow, millions of Americans, knee deep in tinsel and wrapping paper, will utter those heartfelt words: 'Is this all I got?"

Kelsey Grammar

or

"the road to hell is paved with unwanted Christmas Presents"


Sheesh! You are just bound and determined to spread some holiday anti-cheer, aren't you?

[fascination]

"Joy, christmas Eve. By this time tomorrow, millions of Americans, knee deep in tinsel and wrapping paper, will utter those heartfelt words: 'Is this all I got?"

Kelsey Grammar

or

"the road to hell is paved with unwanted Christmas Presents"you're killin' me here...;) funny, I don't think a gift will ever matter that much again...I've been guilty of those thoughts...but now that I don't have my mom.... any old gift will do

[fascination]

Sheesh! You are just bound and determined to spread some holiday anti-cheer, aren't you?
it is the bah humbug thread missy

[Peaches]

Fair point. I'm sorry, BTM.

[samina]

i've got a confession some might consider bah-humbug

if i were raising my kids now, i would never lead them to believe in santa claus...

i'd fill the holidays with warmth & fun & all sorts of good things, but i wouldn't betray their trust & insult their intelligence by lying to them about that silliness

i think american culture would be vastly improved if santa were excised from the mass consciousness. i mean, not gonna happen, but that's still my private thought

i don't *feel* like scrooge...! :D :D

[bordertangoman]

Sheesh! You are just bound and determined to spread some holiday anti-cheer, aren't you?


Look Peaches, when you're as empathic as I am the expression of disappointment on someone else's face, especially a child, just wracks me up and quite frankly i can't take it no more.

Moreover there's no accounting for taste so the things I like aren't going to be the stuff other members of my family like (only my mother I can get something arty that I know she'll like)

I think the people who put all their present money to a good cause have a better solution. The best present I can give my three year old daughter is my time...

[DancePoet]

true, that just makes me a miserable old grinch :wink:
Well the grinch, and even scrooge finally came around. Maybe you will, too?

[DancePoet]

Stupidity is the triumph of hope over experience
Experience can triumph over stupidity, and hope doesn't need to be a factor. :cool:

[DancePoet]

triumph is the experience of hope over stupidity ...
Huh? :?

[DancePoet]

The original quote is from Samuel Johnson (1700s) - a second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
:lol:

The 1st experience could improve the 2nd, yet it is much more complicated then hope. Perhaps folks hope rather then learn and act on their experience to improve the likelihood of a better marriage the 2nd time around. :cool:

[DancePoet]

"Joy, christmas Eve. By this time tomorrow, millions of Americans, knee deep in tinsel and wrapping paper, will utter those heartfelt words: 'Is this all I got?"

Kelsey Grammar
Was that said by him or his character "Frazier"?

[Peaches]

Look Peaches, when you're as empathic as I am the expression of disappointment on someone else's face, especially a child, just wracks me up and quite frankly i can't take it no more.

Moreover there's no accounting for taste so the things I like aren't going to be the stuff other members of my family like (only my mother I can get something arty that I know she'll like)

I think the people who put all their present money to a good cause have a better solution. The best present I can give my three year old daughter is my time...


OK, OK, keep your shirt on.

I neglected to put a smiley, or winking face or something to indicate my tone in that post. I meant it as good-natured ribbing. Besides, I apologized already.

I learned my lesson regarding disappointment, empathy, and the pain it can cause when the two intersect a long time ago. It's a memory that hurts me and makes me feel ashamed just thinking about it, not quite 20 years later.

I don't particularly disagree with your opinions.

[DancePoet]

you're killin' me here...;) funny, I don't think a gift will ever matter that much again...I've been guilty of those thoughts...but now that I don't have my mom.... any old gift will do
Perhaps we have all been guilty of this, yet it comes down to setting too high of an expectation. Hopefully our experiences can show us to lessen them, and be thankful for the feelings that are being expressed though the gifts we receive.

[samina]

Perhaps we have all been guilty of this, yet it comes down to setting too high of an expectation. Hopefully our experiences can show us to lessen them, and be thankful for the feelings that are being expressed though the gifts we receive.

nicely said, both DP & f.

[DancePoet]

i've got a confession some might consider bah-humbug

if i were raising my kids now, i would never lead them to believe in santa claus...

i'd fill the holidays with warmth & fun & all sorts of good things, but i wouldn't betray their trust & insult their intelligence by lying to them about that silliness

i think american culture would be vastly improved if santa were excised from the mass consciousness. i mean, not gonna happen, but that's still my private thought

i don't *feel* like scrooge...! :D :D
Hmmm ... worth pondering. :cool:

[fascination]

i've got a confession some might consider bah-humbug

if i were raising my kids now, i would never lead them to believe in santa claus...

i'd fill the holidays with warmth & fun & all sorts of good things, but i wouldn't betray their trust & insult their intelligence by lying to them about that silliness

i think american culture would be vastly improved if santa were excised from the mass consciousness. i mean, not gonna happen, but that's still my private thought

i don't *feel* like scrooge...! :D :Dbut there IS such a thing as santa claus...and if you do it right, mthey don't feel that way by the time that they are old enough to know better...b/c they have already embraced the notion of having the christmas spirit...of giving

[DancePoet]

Look Peaches, when you're as empathic as I am the expression of disappointment on someone else's face, especially a child, just wracks me up and quite frankly i can't take it no more.

Moreover there's no accounting for taste so the things I like aren't going to be the stuff other members of my family like (only my mother I can get something arty that I know she'll like)

I think the people who put all their present money to a good cause have a better solution. The best present I can give my three year old daughter is my time...
It is ok for kids to be disappointed. Good opportunity for learning. :idea:

Also, sometimes picking out gifts is a difficult responsibility, yet so is receiving. It isn't only your fault. :friend:

And yes, time is very important, too. :cool:

[Peaches]

i've got a confession some might consider bah-humbug

if i were raising my kids now, i would never lead them to believe in santa claus...

i'd fill the holidays with warmth & fun & all sorts of good things, but i wouldn't betray their trust & insult their intelligence by lying to them about that silliness

i think american culture would be vastly improved if santa were excised from the mass consciousness. i mean, not gonna happen, but that's still my private thought

i don't *feel* like scrooge...! :D :D

Hmmm... I don't think there's anything wrong with Santa. I don't find it particularly insulting of their intelligence, or a betrayal of trust. It's a fun children's story, which I feel is kinda harmless. I don't think it's particularly heartbreaking or traumatic for kids to discover there's no Santa. (Or is it? I dunno, not having kids.)

I loved finding out that Mom and Dad were Santa, as did my brother. We felt like we had gotten the "inside scoo" on the secret. And then it was OUR secret that we knew, and mom and dad didn't but still kept up the illusion. (Besides, we'd go and surreptitiously open the gifts to find out what we got, and then carefully re-wrap them!) A couple of years later the cat was out of the bag and we all had a good laugh at it.

Even now my parent insist on giving us presents from Santa, the reindeer, Mrs. Claus, and the elves.

[Peaches]

but there IS such a thing as santa claus...and if you do it right, mthey don't feel that way by the time that they are old enough to know better...b/c they have already embraced the notion of having the christmas spirit...of giving

Exactly. I think it comes down to how you choose to "spin" the tale to kids.

[samina]

but there IS such a thing as santa claus...and if you do it right, mthey don't feel that way by the time that they are old enough to know better...b/c they have already embraced the notion of having the christmas spirit...of giving

i luv the spirit of giving, that's for sure. i just have a thing against santa... lol

[Peaches]

Meh. To each their own! :-)

The only thing I've got against Santa is when I was little and got taken for the obligatory picture with Santa. Always terrified me...

[bordertangoman]

wasn't Santa Claus an invention of Harpers

[fascination]

my kids had their picture taken every year through last year for my mom(when they were 18 and 13)...they hated it, now they miss it

[Peaches]

Er...depends on the incarnation...but I thought a lot of the responsibility for the current version we see went to Macy's. Could be I'm completely off-base on that one.

But even way prior to that, there were stories of St. Nick and such. And, I believe similar winter-holiday-special-visit-gift-giving-personae show up in other cultures. Could be completely off base on this, too...it's been a while.

[samina]

Exactly. I think it comes down to how you choose to "spin" the tale to kids.

it's still a ludicrous lie no matter what the spin. i mean, i'm not going to argue it's not a *fun* lie, but...

imagine if kids collectively had parents who found other ways to inspire fun & a generous spirit, without resorting to promoting belief in something nonsensical.

the lie dominates the lives of young children when they are at their most impressionable, when they are developing their values and their view of the world and themselves in it. i think the ritual of santa takes a toll that's probably very hard to see, until it's left behind and something new can take its place.

okay... honestly, don't mean to be on a soap-box. :) just had a thoughtful moment when i shared that earlier...

[samina]

Meh. To each their own! :-)

yes, exactly what i was going to say, peach :)

i'm just saying my view of things, which i know is a bit different from the norm

[samina]

wasn't Santa Claus an invention of Harpers

i believe it was coca-cola that drove the evolution of santa claus earlier in the 1900s

this is *not* an ancient tradition... the hands of corporate consumerism has been all over it from its very genesis

<crikey, am beginning to sound like a term paper...>

[fascination]

no, it is fair that that is your experience...i just don't personally know anyone else who was traumatized or who regrets that magical time of belief...such as when young kids go to disney....but certainly anything is expendable and the spirit of it is able to be conveyed in other ways

[Peaches]

No worries, just different pov's.

Allegedly,* my mother-in-law would end her soap box ramblings with "Ok, scoot, scoot." As in, scooting her soap-box off the stage.

I say allegedly, b/c I usually tried my darndest to tune her out when she got on her soap-box. Which seemed to be always.

[samina]

I don't think it's particularly heartbreaking or traumatic for kids to discover there's no Santa.

nah, i don't think it's generally traumatic, either. that's not my beef.

but i suspect it *does* have subtle but significant consequences in the way we view ourselves in the world. i think there are much more powerful archetypes we could promote in the eyes of our children in order to raise kids to be far more intelligent, sensitive, empowered, and generous adults.

just my way of seein it...

[fascination]

and again, it needn't be an either or scenario...one would hope santa wouldn't be one's only role model

[Peaches]

In re: the question about Santa's origins, I found this interesting.

I hope this doesn't run afoul of prohibitions about religious stuff. If it does, I apologize and will happily remove it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm

[samina]

and again, it needn't be an either or scenario...one would hope santa wouldn't be one's only role model

a fat guy who doesn't know how to delegate and isolates himself with small creatures in a remote & frigid region of the world, with his best idea being the distribution of gifts via soot-lined chimney...

not any kinda role model, in my book LOL

and as for magic, i'd rather focus on giving my kids experiences of *real* magic... the kind where you miraculously find you're able to manifest something you deeply desire, rather than something that is -- to my mind -- all flim-flam

hey, btm... i think i'm doin' your thread some justice here! :D :D

[Peaches]

There's also a version of Santa who resides in the bayou/swamp/marshes/wetlands, rides a skiff, and is towed by...alligators, I belive. Maybe crocodiles. Can't remember.

It's from a book called, IIRC, A Cajun Christmas Story.

[samina]

There's also a version of Santa who resides in the bayou/swamp/marshes/wetlands, rides a skiff, and is towed by...alligators, I belive. Maybe crocodiles. Can't remember.

It's from a book called, IIRC, A Cajun Christmas Story.

oh, yeah... i'm sure there are many, many takes on santa

i do like the idea of an alligator-wrestling santa... <nod of approval> :)

[Peaches]

Just checked...flying alligators.

[fascination]

a fat guy who doesn't know how to delegate and isolates himself with small creatures in a remote & frigid region of the world, with his best idea being the distribution of gifts via soot-lined chimney...

not any kinda role model, in my book LOL

and as for magic, i'd rather focus on giving my kids experiences of *real* magic... the kind where you miraculously find you're able to manifest something you deeply desire, rather than something that is -- to my mind -- all flim-flam

hey, btm... i think i'm doin' your thread some justice here! :D :Dnot my thread, or my take on santa...but you are doing the thread justice...like anything else, IMO, it's how you cast it...I create the initial definition of anything my kids are exposed to....they consequently understand santa as a giving saint...something they should aspire to, not all of the fluff that it has devolved into...

[samina]

In re: the question about Santa's origins, I found this interesting.

I hope this doesn't run afoul of prohibitions about religious stuff. If it does, I apologize and will happily remove it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm

took at peek at the site... yes, there are definite intersections of santa w/ christianity's symbols. won't touch that one here, but doing so would definitely highlight other aspects that influence my view.

i'm skirting the surface on the subject, for sure, and am happy to stay on the surface. :)

[fascination]

good plan...we do avoid that here for lots of very good reasons...

[samina]

they consequently understand santa as a giving saint...something they should aspire to, not all of the fluff that it has devolved into...

that's very nice, fas...

you actually have many sensibilities when it comes to your kids that very much match my own.

[samina]

good plan...we do avoid that here for lots of very good reasons...

ooooo, yeah...

[Peaches]

...still giggling here about flying alligators...

[fascination]

samina...re: your compliment.....I have no doubt about that(our common parenting sensibilities)...sometimes it's just about which part of the elephant one is touching....if ya' know the story...gtg tho'

[samina]

Just checked...flying alligators.

oh, yeah? no way... wouldn't that be cool?

santa wrestles bayou gators into submission -- they overcome their voracious appetites to be put into service pulling santa's bayou barge around the swamp, delivering fresh crocks of jambalaya to all the hungry families on christmas morn...

i'm likin' it! LOL

[samina]

samina...re: your compliment.....I have no doubt about that(our common parenting sensibilities)...sometimes it's just about which part of the elephant one is touching....if ya' know the story...gtg tho'

lol. yep.

ciao. :)

[Peaches]

oh, yeah? no way... wouldn't that be cool?

santa wrestles bayou gators into submission -- they overcome their voracious appetites to be put into service pulling santa's bayou barge around the swamp, delivering fresh crocks of jambalaya to all the hungry families on christmas morn...

i'm likin' it! LOL

See? You gotta' love flying gators. Everybody loves flying gators.

[samina]

<imagining taking a flying gator ride down to florida to visit folks, rather than going jetblue... w/ two side gators for my kids... now that would be a fun ride!>

[Peaches]

Hey, it's not as if you'd lose that much cargo space--you're allowed to bring, what, 2 pill boxes with you at this point? And, it's not as if you'd have any less lumbar support.

Not to mention, you'd have so much more leg room. And you could separate the kids on their individual gators so you wouldn't have to deal with the fighting!

What's not to love?

Well, I think their backs are a bit rough and poke-y. That could get uncomfy for a long flight.

Anyway, enough hijacking from me. Back to humbug...

[DancePoet]

wasn't Santa Claus an invention of Harpers
Check out this link: http://cartoons.osu.edu/nast/santa_camp.htm

[DancePoet]

it's still a ludicrous lie no matter what the spin. i mean, i'm not going to argue it's not a *fun* lie, but...

imagine if kids collectively had parents who found other ways to inspire fun & a generous spirit, without resorting to promoting belief in something nonsensical.

the lie dominates the lives of young children when they are at their most impressionable, when they are developing their values and their view of the world and themselves in it. i think the ritual of santa takes a toll that's probably very hard to see, until it's left behind and something new can take its place.

okay... honestly, don't mean to be on a soap-box. :) just had a thoughtful moment when i shared that earlier...
Stories can teach children many things. There are all kinds of fantastical tales told to children, not just Santa Claus. ;)

[samina]

And you could separate the kids on their individual gators so you wouldn't have to deal with the fighting!

the advent of ipods brought a virtual ceasefire of travel-related fighting
;)

[samina]

Stories can teach children many things. There are all kinds of fantastical tales told to children, not just Santa Claus. ;)

oh yeah, totally into storytelling, myths, archetypes as conveyers of lessons & human truths... all that good stuff. right up my alley, DP

[DancePoet]

In re: the question about Santa's origins, I found this interesting.

I hope this doesn't run afoul of prohibitions about religious stuff. If it does, I apologize and will happily remove it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm
Seems to look ok. Interesting stuff to read. Thank you. :cool:

[bordertangoman]

Well if Santa was real then Leslie Nielsen is how I'd like to imagine him.

[Peaches]

"I can see through the lies, like Spam in a ziplock bag."

[bordertangoman]

"You can't a fool a me there ain't no sanity clause"
Chico Marx

[samina]

"... like Spam in a ziplock bag."

oh... eeew. can't get past the grossness of this one.


eeew.

[fascination]

I have never had spam

[Peaches]

Me neither. And, i've never seen the Leslie Nielsen movie I was quoting.

[bordertangoman]

Me neither. And, i've never seen the Leslie Nielsen movie I was quoting.

ohh peaches now you have disappointed me. I had assumed you knew it off by heart. hey ho. its an average film and not LN at his bet or funniest.

but as Christmas movies go its okay IMO.

[Peaches]

I'm sure there are a few several movies I quote from extemporaneously without having seen. It comes from listening to DH quoting them at me for the past 10 years, lol.

[Joe]

And don't call me Shirley.

[Peaches]

Your lies are like bananas...

[samina]

Your lies are like bananas...

huh...? you peel & eat them? wha...?

[Peaches]

...they come in big, yellow bunches.

(Yet another quote from some Leslie Nielsen movie I haven't watched, but which DH likes to quote at me. After 10 years, I've taken to quoting it myself.)

[samina]

...they come in big, yellow bunches.

(Yet another quote from some Leslie Nielsen movie I haven't watched, but which DH likes to quote at me. After 10 years, I've taken to quoting it myself.)

ah... movie quote. gotcha. haven't seen one of his movies in awhile, but i remember them as very silly... :)

[and123]

Nice holiday time waster:
http://n.ethz.ch/student/mkos/pinguin.swf

(there is also a more gruesome version where the Snowbeast chops off the penguin's head, but unfortunately the site has a little ad banner for video porn chats, soooo I don't think I should post it here)

[samina]

took my kids out the other nite to finish their holiday shopping. last stop: target. passed by the xmas card aisle... the pretty artwork drew my attention, and then i was like "oh yeah... xmas cards... huh... people still send those out, right?" i kept on walkin'...

it's like tv -- doesn't intersect w/ my reality anymore.

but they are so prettty! i just love xmas cards. in theory.
:)

[bordertangoman]

took my kids out the other nite to finish their holiday shopping. last stop: target. passed by the xmas card aisle... the pretty artwork drew my attention, and then i was like "oh yeah... xmas cards... huh... people still send those out, right?" i kept on walkin'...

it's like tv -- doesn't intersect w/ my reality anymore.

but they are so prettty! i just love xmas cards. in theory.
:)


Make your own or maybe buy some from a friend who makes her own. Don't bother with charity ones though the percentage that goes to the charity is often pitiful. The main criticism of cards is they have lost the religious theme pretty much altogether and there's is a saturated market I mean you can buy them everwhere so there's gonna be alot of pulping of the unsold ones after Christmas......

walk on by...... (whistle, whistle...)

[samina]

walk on by...... (whistle, whistle...)

i'm-a walkin'...

but once upon a time i used to a mega-xmas-celebrator uber-suzy-homemaker-type... my, how things change. lol

[bordertangoman]

the dreaded day of the office Christmas lunch. Not that I have anything against my genial co-workers - there's only four of us- but they know all I want them to know about me. This is my my idea of hell :twisted:

[Pacion]

the dreaded day of the office Christmas lunch. Not that I have anything against my genial co-workers - there's only four of us- but they know all I want them to know about me. This is my my idea of hell :twisted:

:lol: Have fun! ;)

I have been developing the art/skill of question evasion - like only answering part of the question (the part I want to answer) and if there is nothing in the question I want to answer, they get a totally unrelated response. May be a bit more difficult though when it is your work colleagues and it is such a small number of you!

[waltzgirl]

My parents used this classic to "cushion the blow" about Santa Claus:

http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/

Making the switch from believing in Santa Claus as a real person to believing in what the symbol stands for involved no trauma. It was comforting and made me feel very grown up, at the same time.

[Peaches]

the dreaded day of the office Christmas lunch. Not that I have anything against my genial co-workers - there's only four of us- but they know all I want them to know about me. This is my my idea of hell :twisted:

Oh god, that sucks. We have ton of holiday parties--the section one, the division one, the official one from where I used to work (same division, different section), the un-official one from where I used to work. I hate them. Not that i hate my co-workers, but I've never been comfortable in groups of people.

This year, I'm proud to say, I avoided them all.

[Pacion]

This year, I'm proud to say, I avoided them all.

and your method was???? :raisebro:

[fascination]

Make your own or maybe buy some from a friend who makes her own. Don't bother with charity ones though the percentage that goes to the charity is often pitiful. The main criticism of cards is they have lost the religious theme pretty much altogether and there's is a saturated market I mean you can buy them everwhere so there's gonna be alot of pulping of the unsold ones after Christmas......

walk on by...... (whistle, whistle...)actually, unicef's percentage was very high...can't remember but very high...and if you get in touch with smaller church based ministries you can get them the cost of which goes almost solely to the charity...you just have to exert some effort

[bordertangoman]

Oh god, that sucks.

This year, I'm proud to say, I avoided them all.


too late for that; waiting for the onset of IBS due to food unfamilar to my system. Restaurants cant keep food simple; its all sauces full of cream or stilton or other stuff I can no longer tolerate.its gonna take me most of the Christmas break to feel anything like happy.

[bordertangoman]

only 12 grumbling hours left :wink:

[fascination]

and then you shall find a lovely smiling wench under the tree to give you the tickling that you so badly deserve this fine holiday season....perhaps instead of grumbling today, you could call someone you know who's life is worse and let them know that you are thinking of them or invite them to a movie...or tell them how much they mean to you...btw, I find your brooding endearing...note to self to look into why I find brooding men so attractive...very very disordered

[samina]

btw, I find your brooding endearing...note to self to look into why I find brooding men so attractive...very very disordered

is it the idea that your magically enchanting self might be able to charm them out of their funk? some women have a way about them, after all...
;)

[fascination]

is it the idea that your magically enchanting self might be able to charm them out of their funk? some women have a way about them, after all...
;)trust me, if there is one thing of which I am certain, it is that I DON'T have the way

[Me]

Right now, I completely hate Christmas. I just want to disappear.

[Laura]

I'm feeling pretty darn humbuggy myself too. Last night, though, I watched that really obnoxious Billy Bob Thornton movie "Bad Santa" and it cheered me up. But yeah, Christmas this year mostly sucks for me. If magic packing elves could come and pack up my stuff (while automatically knowing what needs to be left behind for my future ex-husband) and also run to Home Depot to pick up paint and teleport my boxes and furniture to my new place, all while stocking my pantry and liquor cabinet and picking me up a couple of pairs of fantabulous shoes from Bloomingdale's, then I'd probably be feeling a little better temporarily at least so long as I don't think too hard about anything.

Ok, when I'm done watching "Miracle on 34th Street" (the original NOT colorized version) I'll go try to pack a few boxes because there are no magic packing elves out there.... One step at a time, one day at a time....

[Zhena]

.... One step at a time, one day at a time....
Hugs and best wishes. You'll get through this.

[Laura]

Well, I packed another two boxes, so that's progress!

[mamboqueen]

Ok, when I'm done watching "Miracle on 34th Street" (the original NOT colorized version) I'll go try to pack a few boxes because there are no magic packing elves out there.... One step at a time, one day at a time....

I just got done watching this, too. One of my all-time favorite feel-good movies.

You'll get through it, Laura...hang in there ;)

[fascination]

I'm feeling pretty darn humbuggy myself too. Last night, though, I watched that really obnoxious Billy Bob Thornton movie "Bad Santa" and it cheered me up. But yeah, Christmas this year mostly sucks for me. If magic packing elves could come and pack up my stuff (while automatically knowing what needs to be left behind for my future ex-husband) and also run to Home Depot to pick up paint and teleport my boxes and furniture to my new place, all while stocking my pantry and liquor cabinet and picking me up a couple of pairs of fantabulous shoes from Bloomingdale's, then I'd probably be feeling a little better temporarily at least so long as I don't think too hard about anything.

Ok, when I'm done watching "Miracle on 34th Street" (the original NOT colorized version) I'll go try to pack a few boxes because there are no magic packing elves out there.... One step at a time, one day at a time....sorry laura, that really bites...I wouldn't be too worried about leaving anything behind for the ex though;) ...anyhow, you never did say what color you went for....and, btw, you definately deserve the shoes

[fascination]

I just got done watching this, too. One of my all-time favorite feel-good movies.

You'll get through it, Laura...hang in there ;)
never seen it all the way through:rolleyes:

[fascination]

missing my mom...trying to stay busy and tell self it won't stink

[Laura]

sorry laura, that really bites...I wouldn't be too worried about leaving anything behind for the ex though;)
It's kind of amusing deciding what to leave. When we talked about it the only things he seemed to care about were the DVD, CD, and book collections. I'm taking most of what is in the kitchen, except that I am leaving all my old spices, in case he suddenly decides to learn to cook. They were all over a year old and so I treated myself today to stocking up on all new ones!

...anyhow, you never did say what color you went for....and, btw, you definately deserve the shoes
After going back and forth and obsessing about the whole thing, I solved the problem by accidentally overdosing on anti-depressants. Once the nausea and out-of-body/can't focus feelings went away, I talked to some friends and realized what the hell, it's only paint, and am going for:

cranberry zing (cranberry colored, but with a lot of orange in it)
riding hood (reddish-orange, next on the paint chip to cranberry zing)
tiger stripe (really, it's orange like a tiger, browner and brighter than riding hood)
eggshell (off white, the name says it all)

Not sure what I will do in the bedroom, possibly one wall in tiger stripe and the rest in eggshell. And I'm painting the downstairs half bath bright screaming orange, possibly with green and/or purple pinstripes (I already have the paint for this, it was purchased to re-do a bathroom in the house but I never got around to it and since I'm moving out then why the heck bother doing it now).

As for the shoes...my ex-amateur-dance-partner asked me out for dinner on New Year's Eve, and he's a guy who can appreciate a good pair of shoes. In fact, he suggested a while ago that I make a trip to Bloomies to get something great. So now I'm going to make a point of getting something before I see him and his friends! (No, no possibility for romance there, so don't get any ideas.)

To keep with the thread title...I'm now watching "How the Grinch Stole Christmas," another of my favorite seasonal movies. However, I much prefer the parts when the Grinch is hatching his nefarious plan :) Once he turns nice it's not as interesting to me.

Fascination, I'm sorry to hear about your mom. You miss her because you always will have love for her in your heart, so the pain of the loss is bittersweet.

[fascination]

lol, well then ...good for you...am off to sing now, but I love the color scheme and your spirit...hang in there laura...I know you can

[bordertangoman]

and then you shall find a lovely smiling wench under the tree to give you the tickling that you so badly deserve this fine holiday season....perhaps instead of grumbling today, you could call someone you know who's life is worse and let them know that you are thinking of them or invite them to a movie...or tell them how much they mean to you...btw, I find your brooding endearing...note to self to look into why I find brooding men so attractive...very very disordered


methinks it should be the other way around; I, taking on the role on noble knight, rescue a stranded damsel from some fearsome dragon. Have to remove armour to be tickled though....:wink:

nobody called me endearing before, thank you

[fascination]

well I have a few dragons that need to go...and you are welcome

[fascination]

on that subject...rough day...the house, the meal, it's all perfect...and my mom isn't here...I don't have any more fussing to do and now it's really starting to hurt....and well, it's not noon here

[bordertangoman]

To keep with the thread title...I'm now watching "How the Grinch Stole Christmas," another of my favorite seasonal movies. However, I much prefer the parts when the Grinch is hatching his nefarious plan :) Once he turns nice it's not as interesting to me.



I agree. Jack Nicholson is the same in 'As good as it gets'. He's far more entertaining as a foul mouthed obsessive-compulsive insulting all without fear or favour than Mr Nice Guy

[bordertangoman]

on that subject...rough day...the house, the meal, it's all perfect...and my mom isn't here...I don't have any more fussing to do and now it's really starting to hurt....and well, it's not noon here


talk to her; tell her what you would if she were there.

In spite of it all I still have a Christmas tree; for me and my daughter. As much pagan as Christian it somhow conveys the sense of love for wild things even if it is cut down. Christmas day I have spent walking and watching ducks geese and other wildfowl and just pootling.

[fascination]

I knew you had a Christmas heart

[bordertangoman]

I knew you had a Christmas heart

like the Lion or was it Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz?

[fascination]

tin man...I beleive...lion needed courage...scarecrow, brain

[mamboqueen]

mamboqueen, a bag of fifties for more lessons ;)

[DancePoet]

Ayuh getting through the holidays can be tricky after a relationship break down. When you are feeling blue, just remember how pretty blue christmas lights can sometimes be. :D

It's kind of amusing deciding what to leave. When we talked about it the only things he seemed to care about were the DVD, CD, and book collections. I'm taking most of what is in the kitchen, except that I am leaving all my old spices, in case he suddenly decides to learn to cook. They were all over a year old and so I treated myself today to stocking up on all new ones!
This is way too funny ... leaving behind the old spices ... :lol: ... way to go Laura!

After going back and forth and obsessing about the whole thing, I solved the problem by accidentally overdosing on anti-depressants. Once the nausea and out-of-body/can't focus feelings went away, I talked to some friends and realized what the hell, it's only paint, and am going for:

cranberry zing (cranberry colored, but with a lot of orange in it)
riding hood (reddish-orange, next on the paint chip to cranberry zing)
tiger stripe (really, it's orange like a tiger, browner and brighter than riding hood)
eggshell (off white, the name says it all)

Not sure what I will do in the bedroom, possibly one wall in tiger stripe and the rest in eggshell. And I'm painting the downstairs half bath bright screaming orange, possibly with green and/or purple pinstripes (I already have the paint for this, it was purchased to re-do a bathroom in the house but I never got around to it and since I'm moving out then why the heck bother doing it now).
Sounds like some cool colors to me. When you get around to throwing a party for all your dance friends make sure you play some AT music. ;)

As for the shoes...my ex-amateur-dance-partner asked me out for dinner on New Year's Eve, and he's a guy who can appreciate a good pair of shoes. In fact, he suggested a while ago that I make a trip to Bloomies to get something great. So now I'm going to make a point of getting something before I see him and his friends! (No, no possibility for romance there, so don't get any ideas.)
Ayuh, staying clear of romantic situations for awhile could be a good idea, but as for shoes, go for it. Got the SO some shoes for Xmas and she was thrilled! Then we went shopping the day after Xmas and picked up another pair she had been eyeing, on sale. :cool:

[DancePoet]

...note to self to look into why I find brooding men so attractive...very very disordered
Perhaps because they express how they feel, which is better then not expressing. :cool:

[DancePoet]

well I have a few dragons that need to go...and you are welcome
Dragon slaying ... a favorite pastime. :raisebro:

[DancePoet]

talk to her; tell her what you would if she were there.

In spite of it all I still have a Christmas tree; for me and my daughter. As much pagan as Christian it somhow conveys the sense of love for wild things even if it is cut down. Christmas day I have spent walking and watching ducks geese and other wildfowl and just pootling.
Some very good sentiments here, and sounds like a lovely way to spend Xmas. :cool:

[bordertangoman]

Some very good sentiments here, and sounds like a lovely way to spend Xmas. :cool:


yes, it was a place I walk regularly; hard to describe: a bit like Frodo crossing a swamp to get to Morrdorr; boggy and treachorous (but well marked paths); flat and wild, and beloved of curlews, hobbys, dragonflies, warblers and much else though none of these evident in winter.

[bordertangoman]

I am extending the Humbug Thread to include noo year 'celebrations' which to my mind equates to intoxication of an extreme nature.( 'the cause and cure of humanities problems' to quote homer simpson

A plea to firework manufacturers to make silent rockets that look pretty but don't bang or go wheeeee, so that those of us who have gone to bed don't get woken by our revelling neighbours.

having seen a grumpy old new year programme last night which cheered me up knowing I am not alone for my disdain for humanities inclination to poison itself and engage in ridiculous behaviour and set resolutions it cannot keep.

here's to: Arnie saving the US from global warming and to dancing for all:smile:

[tangotime]

Amateur nite out - nuff said !:raisebro: :raisebro:

[Joe]

LOL, that's exactly what some bartenders said in the paper (they were interviewed about whether or not they like working NYE).

[samina]

Not sure what I will do in the bedroom, possibly one wall in tiger stripe and the rest in eggshell. And I'm painting the downstairs half bath bright screaming orange, possibly with green and/or purple pinstripes (I already have the paint for this, it was purchased to re-do a bathroom in the house but I never got around to it and since I'm moving out then why the heck bother doing it now).


i adore color on walls, laura... these sound so cheery, energizing, and comforting! let us know what the final verdict is & how they turn out. i am *extremely* partial to orange on walls -- in my last home, i did a wash on the walls of the great room with deep tangerine. felt like one was on the inside of the fruit looking out and i just loved it! how can one not be happy in an orange room??? :D :D

[samina]

am back from florida. family was very demanding (on an emotional level, if ya know what i mean), so i think in between all the activity i just needed to zone out & recoup & thus stayed away from the computer...

i was ready to come home after three days, and am so happy to be back... but it was definitely a great visit.

fascination, i thought of you and your passage thru the first holiday season without your mum, and it inspired me to breathe through the head-banging moments with my own. even if my parents can be mind-numbingly loony, i didn't want to miss a moment, because i know this could always be my last season with them.

it was a holiday to count blessings, and to be in the moment...

hope you're feeling better, luv... to both fascination & laura. btm, too. :)

no amateur nite new years' eve festivities for moi... i dreadfully miss the SO, so will spend the next couple days taking turns cocooning at each other's houses... ah, the quiet...

[Laura]

I made giant paint chips out of posterboard and determined that one of the oranges was WAY TOO ORANGE. We're talking "caution - construction zone ahead" orange. But I'm still using two other shades, and perhaps a very soft apricot or peach for the bedroom.

As for New Year's -- I have such mixed feelings toward it. In general I love a good New Year's party, but there are few truly good ones. The last really great one I went to I threw myself :) People were begging me to have another one the next year. Well...maybe next year...this year I'm going out to an early dinner and then have no plans.

[samina]

I made giant paint chips out of posterboard and determined that one of the oranges was WAY TOO ORANGE. We're talking "caution - construction zone ahead" orange. But I'm still using two other shades, and perhaps a very soft apricot or peach for the bedroom.


reminds me that i actually painted that orange room *twice*... the first time, the orange was way too intense, and the pattern of the wash looked like huge bubbles or orange sections all around the room. i actually liked it, like a kid would like something ridiculously vivid, but i repainted the room white, diluted the pigment w/ a glaze & washed the whole room differently a second time.

my hands were orange for weeks. :)