WCS technique

[VinceraVivere]

My teacher and I are thinking about doing a WCS routine to get more familiar with the dance, and I love the dance a lot. The problem is, I never dance it, and when we do dance it together, we jsut run through the steps and never really focus on footwork and all. So I was hoping some of you could help me on that.

In a basic or sugarpush, are the forward steps usually toes or heels? Are there any steps where you take heel leads?

Also, how do you achieve the 'smooth' look that seems to be the trademark of all country/western dancers - I seem to bounce all over the place. But C&W dancers always seem so smooth out on the floor compared to other dancers, in swing and WCS and all that. How is that done?

That's all I have for right now; I'm sure I'll come up with more later. Thanks!

Sarah

[SlowDancer]

Also, how do you achieve the 'smooth' look that seems to be the trademark of all country/western dancers - I seem to bounce all over the place. But C&W dancers always seem so smooth out on the floor compared to other dancers, in swing and WCS and all that. How is that done?

Excellent question. The way I do it is by remembering the sound of an excellent WCS teacher's voice saying to me over and over again: "there is NO BOUNCING in west coast swing." It makes me think of that line from Bull Durham, "there is NO CRYING in baseball." Think of your feet gliding across the floor, always (or almost always) in contact with the floor. Watch yourself in the mirror, if possible. When it looks right to you, try to memorize that feeling for when there is no mirror to guide you.

[kayak]

I know my instructors really focus on precise footwork and placement for both the guy and girl. It would be really hard to not get carried out out of the slot without knowing the footwork. For smoothness, they always work with me on keeping the shoulders flat but get a nice amount of bend in the knees to clearly show the footwork and a rolling back on the heel on the slows. You will love the descriptions. Lots of railroad tracks, hotdogs/buns, squashed oranges.

Just curious, how is your teacher getting you to do a routine without fully describing the basics of the dance?

[VinceraVivere]

We haven't actually started the dance yet (We'll probably start this weekend), but to be honest, he doesn't focus a lot on technique, just on learning the steps. Which can get irritating, but we'll eventually focus on the technique after we get the steps down. I'd just prefer to be doing it right from the beginning.

[Steve Pastor]

I'd be willing to bet good money that there will be several people who will contradict me, but I think Country Western West Coasters have that smooth look because they learn in CW clubs rather than from "pros" at a studio. The people who teach in clubs or community college evening classes don't have the luxury of trying to teach a bunch of technique partly because they don't have time, thank goodness.
Studios, "pros", etc only make money if you think there is something only they can teach you. (and don't get me started on competition)
Just this Saturday I had a Two Step partner who bounced quite a bit making it really hard for her to feel my lead, and hard for me to feel where she was. Since she is fairly new and still open to suggestions, I mentioned this and she said right away, "Oh, you mean being grounded". (She should have just walked away from me after some pithy remark. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?)
I assume you know how to walk pretty well. Maybe you bounce when you walk, too. If you do, stop that. Dance like you walk.
On the other hand, most Americans seem to have way more disposable income than they know what to do with (in spite of all the whining).
Flame on, people!

[Peaches]

I assume you know how to walk pretty well. Maybe you bounce when you walk, too. If you do, stop that. Dance like you walk.


It's always interesting to me that when something becomes "dancing" a lot of things happen. Like forgetting how to walk normally. And I'm not trying to sound high and mighty--I know the same thing has happened (and still does at times) to me.

But I've found that it can be one of the hardest things to get people to "just walk normally" within the context of dancing. "Take 2 normal steps forward" can seem to turn into just about anything--bouncing, hopping, gliding, sliding, a kind of walk "stuttering", you name it.

I wonder what it is that creates this phenomenon.

[Vince A]

Yea, Steve beat me to it . . . do you bounce when you walk? Try walking through your WCS swing basic pattered footwork . . . you shouldn't bounce.

I also remember quite a few years ago when I first started competing . . . and was struglling with a bounce in Two Step . . . my Pro told me to "think" abut a glass of champagne balanced on the top of my head - and trying not to spill a drop! Worked for me!!!!!!! I learned to 'be grounded.'

[waltzgirl]

Well, for one thing, I don't normally walk down the street backwards!

In beginner guys, I think it's often due to anxiety about stepping on their partner. Most people don't walk straight at obstacles in their path (or slightly offset to the right).

Anytime you begin to think about a habitual action as you do it, it can get wierd.

Occasionally, I think it's an attempt to respond to the music before they really know how to.

[Steve Pastor]

I was taught "the woman owns the slot". Yes, it can be hard to get over "walking into" someone.
Just think, though, how hard is it to be the guy when, at the end of each "basic" the woman turns around, looks at you, and seems to be thinking "OK, now what are we doing". And you only know a few things to lead. Believe it or not, it is quite intimidating! (at least it was for me)
We've discussed now the Sugar Push or Push Break works so much better if the woman DOES actually walk into the guy.
Fortunately in WCS the woman gets to walk forward most of the time (at least that's the case where I dance).

[Taurus57]

I think Country Western West Coasters have that smooth look because they learn in CW clubs rather than from "pros" at a studio. The people who teach in clubs or community college evening classes don't have the luxury of trying to teach a bunch of technique partly because they don't have time, thank goodness.

Steve, Steve, Steve,
I think you've had a bad experience with a "pro" or studio somewhere in your past. In my opinion, group classes and community college classes are only about steps and not technique. If you want technique, you have to pay for it separately. I don't disagree with your statement about "something only they can teach you". I've experienced that mentality myself. They are no longer my teacher! Your relationship with your teacher should be one of mutual respect for your abilities (as well as theirs) as a student. After all, you are trying to learn.


Studios, "pros", etc only make money if you think there is something only they can teach you. (and don't get me started on competition)

You obviously don't have much of an opinion on competition/competitors. Competition is based on good technique, not moves. So what if you can throw your partner through a fancy difficult move if it looks like crap. Maybe you've had a bad experience at a competition where you thought you should have won and didn't. Did you blame that on you partner too? Because, I'm sure it wasn't you, right?

Taurus57

[waltzgirl]

Fortunately in WCS the woman gets to walk forward most of the time (at least that's the case where I dance).

Having done mostly ballroom, I'm now a lot more comfortable dancing backward than forward. :)

[Vince A]

Well, for one thing, I don't normally walk down the street backwards!
Where in WCS do you go backwards . . . ???

[waltzgirl]

Where in WCS do you go backwards . . . ???

I've got to start quoting the post I'm responding to! I was responding to Peaches' comment about beginners, which seemed to be about dance more generally. Didn't mean to hijack, sorry.

[Vince A]

I've got to start quoting the post I'm responding to! I was responding to Peaches' comment about beginners, which seemed to be about dance more generally. Didn't mean to hijack, sorry.
I actually "thought" that was what you were referring to . . . I just wanted to have a fun poke at you!!! ;)

[Peaches]

I was taught "the woman owns the slot". Yes, it can be hard to get over "walking into" someone.
Just think, though, how hard is it to be the guy when, at the end of each "basic" the woman turns around, looks at you, and seems to be thinking "OK, now what are we doing". And you only know a few things to lead. Believe it or not, it is quite intimidating! (at least it was for me)
We've discussed now the Sugar Push or Push Break works so much better if the woman DOES actually walk into the guy.
Fortunately in WCS the woman gets to walk forward most of the time (at least that's the case where I dance).

My teacher told me to practice wcs by doing sugar pushes against a wall or counter. It gets you kinda used to walking straight into something pretty well. They do work so much better when you actually walk into the guy, more or less.

The only problem is if they guy isn't giving you any connection to walk into/work off of. I find WCS incredibly difficult (well, I always find it very hard, but I find it even harder) when the guy doesn't give me anything to work off of. If I can't "sit back" into the connection before that first step forward, it gets difficult. If I don't have a "wall" from the guy to run into in the sugar push, it gets even more difficult.

Such a hard dance. I've got so much respect for people who do it well.

[Vince A]

If you have room . . . try a refrigerator handle . . . it'll give you some connection, er, uh, you have to connect to it though!

Try not to break frame too much!

[Peaches]

Well, for one thing, I don't normally walk down the street backwards!

In beginner guys, I think it's often due to anxiety about stepping on their partner. Most people don't walk straight at obstacles in their path (or slightly offset to the right).

Anytime you begin to think about a habitual action as you do it, it can get wierd.

Occasionally, I think it's an attempt to respond to the music before they really know how to.


I'm sure it's all of these things. And I don't mean to knock the guys (or the girls). It's just one of those things that fascinates me--how you can take a simple, natural action and completely fubar it once you start thinking about it.

I noticed this again in QS with my footwork. When i don't think about it, it goes fine. When I try to make sure I get it right, it goes to you know where.

The last group class session I had was WCS. And as much as "walking normally" was stressed, it was fascinating to see what happens with that.

[Peaches]

If you have room . . . try a refrigerator handle . . . it'll give you some connection, er, uh, you have to connect to it though!

Try not to break frame too much!

Um...I don't get this. I just envision the door opening...then closing...then opening...then cat investigating fridge...then closing...then cat squealing...then cat running underfoot...as door opens...as I trip on the back lock...as cat hisses...then DH comes downstairs to investigate racket...then shakes his head as he goes back upstairs...

[waltzgirl]

I'm sure it's all of these things. And I don't mean to knock the guys (or the girls). It's just one of those things that fascinates me--how you can take a simple, natural action and completely fubar it once you start thinking about it.


I know. I'm always fascinated to see the variations that get produced as soon as moving becomes "dancing."

But it bugs me when I see a beginner moving like that in a private lesson and the teacher just letting them do it over and over. Surely, taking a few minutes to work on moving normally would do more good in the long run than just getting them to hippetty-hop through the pattern.

[waltzgirl]

I actually "thought" that was what you were referring to . . . I just wanted to have a fun poke at you!!! ;)

I'm really a newb at wcs, but there's a pattern where I go down the slot, switch to the other side of the guy, and go backwards up the slot. I like that one!

[Steve Pastor]

Hey Taurus57:
Come on out to Bushwhackers on a Thursday or a Saturday and we can compare notes.
I don't "throw" anybody through anything. I won't even attempt to lead something if the woman's balance and momentum aren't right.
Sarah was wondering why CW West Coasters have a smooth look. Based on my experience with the dancers here in Portland, I think it's because they aren't over trained and don't over analyze what they are doing. I've seen lots of women became pretty good dancers without taking lessons.
When I saw you were in Beaverton, I thought about chronicaling the effect you might have on the local dance community. So come on out and I'll watch you dance. You can watch me dance. And we can talk and maybe agree to disagree. If not maybe we can do the same thing here.
Be sure to read my post in the Argentine Tango section if you want more on my thinking about competition.
Meanwhile, you guys go ahead and compete with each other. I'll be out dancing socially.

[VinceraVivere]

Haha. All these replies are very interesting, but I'm starting to get some insight into how difficult it can be when done properly.

I think some of my problem might be the walking "into" my partner, because I've stepped on him a few too many times fot my comfort.

So, practice walking....and not bouncing. I have no idea why I'm so bouncy; I'm not normally that way. Probably over thinking. We never do WCS except for a week before competition, which might be part of the problem.

Hmm. Thanks for all the tips. I'm off to walk up and down my kitchen floor, hopefully not tripping over the cat. That might be a bit hard to explain.

[waltzgirl]

Hmm. Thanks for all the tips. I'm off to walk up and down my kitchen floor, hopefully not tripping over the cat. That might be a bit hard to explain.

When the cat is around your feet and you're trying not to trip on him, don't you kind of slide your feet on the floor rather than pick them up? Just apply that to dancing. ;)

[Taurus57]

Come on out to Bushwhackers on a Thursday or a Saturday and we can compare notes.
Steve,
I will concede here on the social dance scene. I find it difficult to mix the two. My wife doesn't have a problem with dancing both, but I do. FYI WCS is not one of our dances yet, we plan to add it next year. I'm sure I could not keep up with you if you do it on a regular basis.

When I saw you were in Beaverton, I thought about chronicaling the effect you might have on the local dance community. So come on out and I'll watch you dance. You can watch me dance. And we can talk and maybe agree to disagree.
I have no problem agreeing to disagree. I don't attempt to compete with the local swing community and most of them don't compete with me on the competitive circuit.

Meanwhile, you guys go ahead and compete with each other. I'll be out dancing socially.
And probably having more fun, and less stress, while doing it socially than I will competitavely.

[Taurus57]

I think some of my problem might be the walking "into" my partner, because I've stepped on him a few too many times for my comfort.
Most instructors will tell you "If you step on him, it's his fault". Don't take the blame on yourself, he should be moving out of your slot.

Hmm. Thanks for all the tips. I'm off to walk up and down my kitchen floor, hopefully not tripping over the cat. That might be a bit hard to explain.
You can always get rid of the cat.

[VinceraVivere]

Haha. He's a pain in the butt, but good company when I'm home alone.

Even though he does make me sneeze.....:(

And yeah, I need to get over my fear of stepping on him. I've been dancing very tentatively ever since I hit him in the face during Hustle on the competition floor....and then again during practice before our routine. I'm not having very much luck with that.

[waltzgirl]

Haha. He's a pain in the butt, but good company when I'm home alone.

Even though he does make me sneeze.....:(

And yeah, I need to get over my fear of stepping on him. I've been dancing very tentatively ever since I hit him in the face during Hustle on the competition floor....and then again during practice before our routine. I'm not having very much luck with that.


What was your cat doing on the competition floor?

At least that's how I read it the first time! :)

[QQS_Girl]

I'd be willing to bet good money that there will be several people who will contradict me, but I think Country Western West Coasters have that smooth look because they learn in CW clubs rather than from "pros" at a studio.

imho, the very thing that makes WCS a smooth dance is the technique. The way we strike our feet and position our bodies make the flight of the dance what it is. Although many great WCS dancers never compete, they pay great attention to the techniques of connection and body placement which aid greatly in the smoothness of the dance.

[VinceraVivere]

What was your cat doing on the competition floor?

At least that's how I read it the first time! :)

Whoops. I need to make it more apparant how my mind jumps from one thing to another - no one can ever follow it! Haha.

Though I wouldn't put it past my cat to slip out onto the floor...it's just the sort of thing he's good at.

[Peaches]

Most instructors will tell you "If you step on him, it's his fault". Don't take the blame on yourself, he should be moving out of your slot.



That's pretty much what my teacher tells us. It's, "Ladies, once you're moving in that slot, MOVE! Guys, you need to get out of the slot and get out of the way. Ladies, go for it. If he's in your way...well, he'll know enough to move the next time."

Unfortunately, that last bit isn't always true. Nothing like attempting a continuous whip with a guy who's split his weight and planted himself smack in the middle of the slot...yet who's dissociated his arms from his center and pulls you forward anyways... *sigh*

[SuzieQ]

imho, the very thing that makes WCS a smooth dance is the technique. The way we strike our feet and position our bodies make the flight of the dance what it is. Although many great WCS dancers never compete, they pay great attention to the techniques of connection and body placement which aid greatly in the smoothness of the dance.


Welcome, QQS_Girl! :)

[Vince A]

Um...I don't get this. I just envision the door opening...then closing...then opening...then cat investigating fridge...then closing...then cat squealing...then cat running underfoot...as door opens...as I trip on the back lock...as cat hisses...then DH comes downstairs to investigate racket...then shakes his head as he goes back upstairs...
That's just it . . . it shouldn't open at all . . . settle in, stretch . . . connection in your fingertips . . . let your fingertips connect and do your part - the refer won't move and the door shouldn't open.

[Taurus57]

Be sure to read my post in the Argentine Tango section if you want more on my thinking about competition.

Steve,
I respect your opinions about competitions. I actually have a similar opinion as well. Making a grade doesn't always mean you are the best dancer(s). If a couple is performing a routine, both people can be dancing the same dance, but not dancing together (as one). I've watched competitions and am glad I don't have to decide who should win. I find it hard to watch from an analytical standpoint. Dancing should be watched for the enjoyment of the dancing, not the exactness of the performance.

I know your next question will be then why do I compete. I have a one word answer. WIFE! Nuff said.

Taurus57

[Steve Pastor]

I just ran across a reprint from the Los Angeles Times that establishes the fact that people in LA did in fact "jitterbug" to Western Swing.
http://www.shanatinglipton.com/cooley3.html
(by searching for "July 29 Music Center los angeles lucky stars" I ws able to date this article Friday, July 08,2005 http://lacowboy.blogspot.com/2005/07/la-times-gives-la-cowboy-massive-heart.html)
I love the quote that says "Anyone that wanted to be a groovy hillbilly came to Los Angeles".
Then there is the "people were top-notch jitterbugging" quote.
And remember, a few posts back I cited some sources about how wildly popular Western Swing was in LA, etc.
Lets see, people "jitterbugged" to Western Swing. Each city had it's own form of jitterbug. Lauré Haile described the style done in the LA area and named it Western Swing. Western Swing was the first name for West Coast Swing.
It adds up, don't you think?
I hope to continue with a more detailed presentation of what I've found in the "original music West Coast Swing was danced to" thread.

[kayak]

We haven't actually started the dance yet (We'll probably start this weekend), but to be honest, he doesn't focus a lot on technique, just on learning the steps. Which can get irritating, but we'll eventually focus on the technique after we get the steps down. I'd just prefer to be doing it right from the beginning.

I think especially in WCS, it is hard to seperate technique from steps. The idea of leverage and compression is kind of core. Creating the connection has a lot to do with even the different sizes of the steps in something like a coaster step.

I also think that WCS dancers are smoother than anyone actually walks. It would be a rare person walking down the street that let their balance point roll back and settle on to the heel. Maybe I am just walking with stiff people :)

[connectionjunkie]

In a basic or sugarpush, are the forward steps usually toes or heels? Are there any steps where you take heel leads?

Also, how do you achieve the 'smooth' look that seems to be the trademark of all country/western dancers - I seem to bounce all over the place. But C&W dancers always seem so smooth out on the floor compared to other dancers, in swing and WCS and all that. How is that done?

Sarah

I can't believe you think WCS dancers aren't smooth! Who have you been watching! Or maybe I've just misunderstood your post?? Are you saying CW are smooth compared to WCS dancers? Which other dancers are comparing?

Anyway... one cross-over between WCS and CW is Brandi Tobias. I believe she is Masters in Country and also a top level WCS dancer. She and Ronnie came in fourth at the 2006 US Open Swing Dance Championship in the Classic Division.


Just FYI, I have found that at least in the WCS world, the heel/toe thing comes down to what you are taught and which looks/works better for you. Different Pros prefer different styles. I have had privates with many of the top dancers across the country, and they don't all agree. Some preach the heal-toe rolling through the foot on the forward walk/walk, while others believe in the ball rolling back to center as you change weight onto it. Watching the Champions, you will see both. Different follows have their own style. Some even mix it up depending on the tempo and feel of the song.

[QQS_Girl]

(Speaking of heel lead/toe lead) Different follows have their own style. Some even mix it up depending on the tempo and feel of the song.

I agree. I was taught originally that the walks were ALWAYS a ball lead, and never a heel. Then, I would watch some followers that I admire and see them mixing it up. Then I started to experiment when social dancing, and now I really enjoy being able to throw in a heel lead when I want. Even in heel leads there can be different feels. You can do a straight up walk-walk using a heavy heel lead, or even have a "held back" really smooth heel lead. My advice is to just see what works for you! =)