How to build a good Salsa CD collection?

[joaoluissantos]

Hi!

I wonder if someone give me some tips how to build a good Cd collection?

1st - How to have a good Knowledge about the 'old' songs, the 'old' Cds that are essencial in a goof Salsa colection;

2nd - How to be informed of the new Cds?

Usually I check the World Top DJ's hotlists when they have that infomation online, but this lists sometime aren't updated on a monthly basis...

Do you know if there are some good online salsa-latin music magazines with good information about this? Salsa Labels Websites?

3rd - Where to buy online? What are the best places?

Thank's

João Santos

[HothouseSalsero]

I finally am at the point where I feel that I have a pretty good mental map of the varieties of salsa and who the major artists have been. (I have hardly begun to actually hear this huge backlog of recordings, however.) I can make a few recommendations:

Read rec.music.afro-latin, which can be accessed through Google groups (though that's not the only way). Search the archives for topics you are interested in. It's not nearly as active as it once was, and some of the most informed people don't post too regularly. But at times the level of expertise there can be very impressive, if not a bit daunting.

Check www.descarga.com which is a distributor that also has a lot of educational material on the site. I bought their Classic Salsa starter kit a few years back. Some of it I liked a great deal, some of it I still don't like, but it was probably worth it just to get some exposure to key recordings. Still, it's hard for me to unequivocally recommend the starting kit, since some of the CDs do nothing for me.

I will share something I've learned lately, that's helped me sort out where my tastes are in salsa classica (especially as reflected in what I liked/didn't like in the starter collection I bought from descarga.com). Lise Waxer writes, in City of Musical Memory:

. . .A retrospective of classics 1960s and 1970s New York salsa can be envisioned as a beast with three heads: one in the experimental vein led by Eddie Palmieri and Willie Colon; a second, "heavy" one in the Arsenio-Chappotin vein, led by Larry Harlow and Ray Barretto; and a third in the lighter Matancera style, led by Johnny Pacheco and Celia Cruz, that at times appeared to overpower the others. . . .

Puerto Rico, in turn, had its own schools, growing out of the combined influence of Cortijo and also the Sonora Matancera [originally Cuban, of course]. The most famous group, El Gran Combo de Puerto Rico, was founded in 1862 by members of Cortijo's original combo after Rafael Cortijo and his lead vocalist, Ismael Rivera, were incarcerated for drug possession. El Gran Combo carried Cortijo's legacy into the 1960s and 1970s, even after Cortijo and Rivera formed salsa bands of their own. Puerto Rico's other principal band, the Sonora Poncena, was founded in the 1950s. Originally modeled on Cuba's Sonora Matancera, the Poncena underwent several transitions and by the mid-1970s emerged with a style that retained the bright trumpets of its Cuban model but was fused with the heavy sound of the Arsenio school and the dynamic delivery of the Cortijo school. . . .

What I have personally found is that I really tend to like projects headed up by Willie Colon or Eddie Palmieri, tend not to like Larry Harlow or Ray Barretto all that much (though I think I like Barretto better), and really don't connect very much to Pacheco's sound. I also like much of the work of both El Gran Combo and La Sonora Poncena (though not the earliest Poncena style). There are exceptions, and I am still sorting it out, but this seems to be a pretty good rule of thumb for what I like. The other useful thing I've realized is that I usually don't like the charanga sound too much (a style of instrumentation which involves violin and flute).

[HothouseSalsero]

Incidentally, the point of my describing how my taste breaks down is not to discourage you from buying material from all the classic artists Waxer mentions, but to suggest that you look at the different schools of salsa that exist, and be aware of which ones you like the most. It may save you from spending a lot of money on "classic" CDs which you won't end up liking.

However, if liking or not liking is not that big an issue for you at this point, and what you want is something like a salsa CD reference collection, then getting a broad selection, like the one recommended by Descarga.com, makes sense. Here is what they include in their Classic Salsa Special Package:

Alegre All Stars, Te Invita
Celia Cruz, (con Johnny Pacheco) - Celia & Johnny
Cheo Feliciano, Cheo
Eddie Palmieri, Lo Que Traigo Es Sabroso
Fania All Stars, Live at the Cheetah (Volume 1)
Grupo Folklorico Y Experimental Nuevayorquino, Lo Dice Todo
Héctor Lavoe, Comedia
Johnny Pacheco, El Maestro
Justo Betancourt, Distinto Y Diferente
Ruben Blades, Siembra
Louie Ramirez, Louie Ramirez Y Sus Amigos
Ray Barretto, The Message
Markolino Dimond & Frankie Dante, Beethoven's V
Mon Rivera, Mon Y Sus Trombones
Larry Harlow, Salsa!

Three of these CDs I like a lot, all the way through. In two cases I like about half the songs--but really like the ones I like a lot. Four at least have a song or two I like. 5 of them I don't really get and do not enjoy, despite repeated listening. So was it a waste to buy this package? That depends on how you look at it. One thing it did do was at least give me some exposure to major artists and albums (though I was already familiar with some of these people to a greater or lesser extent previously). Also, I'm not sure I would have done any better just buying CDs at random, or according to my slowly growing knowledge of salsa. It would have been a loss not to hear Azuquita's songs on that Louie Ramirez album, I'll tell you that much.

(Note--I am not affiliated with descarga.com, don't get any bonus points for mentioning them, etc. There are other distributors, but so far they have proven to be the best for my purposes. Though the distributor Picadillo apparently includes audio clips on its site, so that might be worth checking out as well.)

[SDsalsaguy]

Fantastic posts and information HHS! :D

[Danish Guy]

Great stuf. Thx 8) 8) 8)

[HothouseSalsero]

Thanks.

Anyone who happens to be seeing this on (any) Saturday evening at 9:00 (EST), can listen to the generally excellent salsa show I am now listening to on WRTI:

http://www.wrti.org/

[brujo]

Music is very personal. Your favorite song might be crap to someone else. I would also recommend going to batanga.com and just picking the artists that you like from the rotations and just google them for more hits. They have a merengue channel as well.

[Vin]

What I do is I go to stores that have the cd's you can listen to all or parts of a cd and just listen. If I like what I hear I get it. It's that simple for me. Also if you go on Amazon lot's of people list recomendations and you can also listen to parts of a track online. I have found alot of great music that way. When you go to clubs and you like a song, find out who sings it and try and find it. You will find alot of great stuff that way as well. Most important you should get the music that speaks to you, then you will have yourself a classic salsa collection.

[Danish Guy]

Music is very personal. Your favorite song might be crap to someone else.

It sure is a very personal thing.

But when somebody recommend at record or a piece of music that’s moves and touches him, I always give it a serious listening times. 5 times at least. That goes no mater if the genre is heavy metal, salsa, rap, techno or whatever.

Looking at my record collection, some of the cd’s I appreciate most didn’t make that good first impression. But they continue to grow with every rerun. Some of the ear hangers had tendencies to get boring after a short time.

Music that still touches people 10 years after it is made, it have my quality stamp. 8)
And some of the pop music should be marked with a use before date stamp. :twisted:

[borikensalsero]

I like it, I like it, I like it like that...

Starting your own cd collection. This all really depends on whether you are a listener collector, or a collector collector. By Listener I mean you buy only music you’ve heard and deemed alright, by Collector Collector, I mean you care about who, when, where, why, and how.

I buy CDs because of their major impact in the salsa community, How much I like the artists, their reviews, and the songs they contain.

The important thing to watch out for, especially if buying CDs from descarga.com. Is that their reviews are made by top salsa musicians, the cream of the crop in the salsa world. So, their musical ear is more refined, their taste more developed, and they are biased because of the why, where, how, etc factor of a particular CD. At times, the person giving reviews was in some way, shape and form involved with the album making. Therefore, the CD brings nostalgic reasons that will make it a 100x better to them, than it actually is.

When someone's ear is more refined than yours, they will look for certain things in the music. They’ll know how certain musical styles where brought together to create different sections of the song, will hear and make sense of stuff you don't and will like a CD because of its musical complexity, what it meant at the time, how they pulled of a remake of a song and so on. Stuff the regular Salsero is completely unaware of.

As a young Salsero you’ll start with stuff you like, which means what mainstream salsa has thrown your way since you labeled yourself, “Salsero”. However, your taste will change with time, the more exposure you have to the music, the more you will start leaning towards the stuff that is more musically “extensive”. (that is, if you seek to learn more about salsa) You will get away from your newly developed style and acquire the ear that will lead you to like those CDs you normally wouldn’t have liked. All due to knowledge, the more you learn; the more you begin to understand and like what is going on. I’ve yet to meet a Salsero who isn’t vast in their salsa knowledge who rather listen to pop, tropical, or romantic salsa over the classics. By Salsero, I don’t mean the dancer, but he who seeks knowledge of it, lives and breaths it…

To start out with your own collection I’d suggest you search the net for salsa and listen to clips of the songs and musicians you like. I love just about everybody out there for one reason or another, minus the pop/tropical salsa and some romantic stuff.

People you absolutely need to have are members of the Fania, El Gran Combo, Sonora Poncena, Los Flamboyan, Markolino Diamond, etc. When buying CDs don’t go into the 60s at first, most people don’t like that sound the first time they hear it. Yet, it is absolutely precious to hear the progress of music until they developed SALSA. Pacheco for the most part played Charanga, he was never able to get into the salsa craze, hence, why he began playing old Cuban classics. The songs from Pacheco that aren’t charanga and sound like salsa, are likely to be pachangas among other genres. NY Style salsa is rich and dura, which to new ears might sound overwhelming, Ala Barretto style. I found Barretto absolutely fascinating.

If you’d like, you can PM songs you like, and I can recommend a few CDs. Remember that while we all might not think a song is good. Great songs are great because there is no middle ground, they appeal to emotion, and not reason. Hence, whey the classics are still as new today as they were in the 70s.

[HothouseSalsero]

The important thing to watch out for, especially if buying CDs from descarga.com. Is that their reviews are made by top salsa musicians, the cream of the crop in the salsa world. So, their musical ear is more refined, their taste more developed, and they are biased because of the why, where, how, etc factor of a particular CD. At times, the person giving reviews was in some way, shape and form involved with the album making. Therefore, the CD brings nostalgic reasons that will make it a 100x better to them, than it actually is.

When someone's ear is more refined than yours, they will look for certain things in the music. They’ll know how certain musical styles where brought together to create different sections of the song, will hear and make sense of stuff you don't and will like a CD because of its musical complexity, what it meant at the time, how they pulled of a remake of a song and so on. Stuff the regular Salsero is completely unaware of.

Yes, the descarga.com reviews can be useful, but you have to keep in mind the things Borinkensalserso has said.

I'm not willing to just roll over and say that they are right and I am wrong, although I readily admit that they know more about the music than I do, and I could very well be missing things. Even you, Borinkensalsero, admit that person associations will sometimes color the reviewer's judgment of a recording. (In jazz, for instance, many highly trained, very discerning ears, nevertheless disagree about whether certain artists are geniuses or con-men.)

When buying CDs don’t go into the 60s at first, most people don’t like that sound the first time they hear it.

This rings true with my experience, except that I found some 60's Palmieri and El Gran Combo stuff fairly accessible, maybe because they were in the processing of helping to invent what came later.

I mostly buy things I know I like, or expect I will like. But while I am not trying to be a music historian, I like to at least know a little bit about the roots of salsa, and I like to stretch my ears a little (without putting pressure on myself to like anything). So my want list includes a handful of things I will be buying more out of historical curiosity: Beny More and Tito Rodriguez, for example. If I like them, so much the better.

This discussion reminds me of the process I went through in getting into Arab music. The first stuff that caught my attention was contemporary, mostly Egyptian, dance music, which turned out to be extremely formulaic (kind of the equivalent of the most formulaic commericla merengue, and maybe bachata, though possibly not quite that narrow). Then I got into George Wassouf (who did a lot of covers of older classics, though he is not considered a particularly proficient singer) and Warda (who is more solidly trained in classical technique). Wait!--this digression is set to sprawl out of control, I see. Anyway, to make a long story short, the owner of the grocery where I was buying cassettes, continued to gently prod me toward the old school stuff (going back to the 50's/60's or even the 40's). Eventually I clicked with some of it, and now I see the 40's and 50's as more or less the golden age of Arab popular music, although I still like things from other eras. I have to admit though that there was something about Arab music that I found attractive to begin with, and I don't feel that way about most older Cuban music I've heard. (But I will keep trying new old things now and then, to give myself a chance to grow into them.)

[HothouseSalsero]

"in the process" not "in the processing"

Must proof-read!

[borikensalsero]

Even you, Borinkensalsero, admit that person associations will sometimes color the reviewer's judgment of a recording. (In jazz, for instance, many highly trained, very discerning ears, nevertheless disagree about whether certain artists are geniuses or con-men.)

This rings true with my experience, except that I found some 60's Palmieri and El Gran Combo stuff fairly accessible, maybe because they were in the processing of helping to invent what came later.

Indeed, I've seen Harlow, and Palmieri write some awesome reviews. Come find out when I buy the CD, I'm like, "WHAT WAS HE THINKING". I've desagree with a number of reviews on descarga.com. I attribute it to my concern about the music’s dance-abilty.

Palmieri used to do that a lot great music in the 60s. His stuff is just good no matter what year is from. El gran combo did a lot of plena and especially bomba during the 60s, I find that stuff rather great. Plus the voice of Pellin Rodriguez is quite awsome to hear in el gran combo.

I went through the same problem with 40’s through 60’s Cuban music as you have with Arab music. At first I didn’t know what to make of it. Then I began to really like it, Now I’ve really enjoy it. Beny More, Tito Rodriguez, they are all pretty darn good. Most of the Beny More I have is very old Son music. It sounds its age, simple, but very classy. Non-Spanish speaking ladies seem to love them. It took me some time to get into it though; about a year. The first time I heard them, I was thought, what a waste of money! Now, I see them as total gems in my collection. I’ve gotten so into old music that I’ve began to buy late 1800’s early 1900’s Puerto Rican music. Now that stuff makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

[peachexploration]

If you like Colombian style salsa and are particularly a newcomer to the music, consider purchasing a compilation CD "Muevelo con la Salsa". It includes:
Me Encanta Como Bailas-Luis Alberto
La Rumba Buena-Sonora Carruseles
Ella Sabe Qe Me Gusta-Los Titanes
Ya Llego-Fruko y sus Tesos
Mis Problemas-Gabino Pampini
Te Sigo Amando-Los Nemus del Pacifico
Lo Bailo y lo Gozo-The Latin Brothers
Fuego En Mi Mente-Joe Arroyo y La Verdad
Me Tienes Vigilado-Orquesta Internacional Los
Cuando Aparezca El Amor-La Sabrosura
Vete Ya-Latinos En La Casa
Baila-John Dennis

Enjoy. :D

[borikensalsero]

Guys, if you have a classical taste in salsa then you'll be happy to check out...

1- Mikey Cora Y Su Orquesta Cabala - Hoy A Las 12
2- Kako - Kako
3- Tipica 73 - La Candela
4- Ray Barretto - Que Viva La Musica
5- Angle Canales - Mas Sabor
6- Tommy Olivencia - Plante Bandera
7- Orqueta De Cuchon - Tumbaron La Ventiuna
8- Felix Morales and his orquesta Capri (Title of CD as well)
9- Wuelfo - El Sonido De La 4
10- Manny Oquendo Y Libre - Mejor Que Nunca
11- La Diferente Con Rafi Val - Fuerza Brutal

If you are into Puerto Rican tipico sound then you might want to check the septeto sound of salsa in: Bobby Peres Y Su Tres Con Kache.