Unlearning bad habits

[pygmalion]

Can anybody resonate with this? I spent my first dancing year learning social dance, and was taught lots of steps, but little technique. Then, I spent the next year and a half doing remedial work and unlearning bad habits that I was allowed to develop. And, needlesss to say, I've spent some time angry about that dichotomy.

But, when teaching dance or anything else, teachers can't start out with heavy technique. They have to start with basic basics. In the case of dance, that means step patterns.

So a couple questions. One, how do teachers decide when and how to introduce dance technique? How important is it to prevent bad habits from forming? And how do you break bad habits that have already been formed?

[will35]

Pygmalion wrote, "But, when teaching dance or anything else, teachers can't start out with heavy technique. They have to start with basic basics. In the case of dance, that means step patterns."

Who said basics were steps? The basics are embrace, posture, hearing the music, etc. Without that, a person cannot even step. You should not be angry about your former training, but angry that generally people (even professional dancers and teachers, whatever professional means) mistake patterns for dancing.

[DancingMommy]

One, how do teachers decide when and how to introduce dance technique? How important is it to prevent bad habits from forming? And how do you break bad habits that have already been formed?

I can totally relate.

In some cases, teachers have no control over what they teach (ie their boss tells them what, when & how). In others, it depends on the student. In the past, if I've had a student that had any sort of inclination towards learning the matieral, I'd give it to them as hard and heavy as I could. The whole schmear - technique, steps, you name it. In other cases, students haven't really cared what they learned as long as they could hobble through their wedding dance. :(

Sometimes, bad habits creep in because the teacher is focusing solely on one aspect of training rather than a holistic approach. OR as hubby and I were just discussing, students observe a teacher's bad habits (slumping or whatever) and subconsciously imitate it.

Breaking bad habits is sometimes a problem. Especially if the student in question had been with a "popular" yet not-so-great-teacher. They can have a fierce loyalty to the previous teacher and transfer that loyalty to the material they had worked on regardless of it's correctness.

Benjamin Franklin is noted for saying that it takese 30 days to form or correct a habit. Practice under the watchful eyes of someone who knows what they are looking for is the greatest help with breaking the bad habit. Even if you only see you coach for a few hours a month, as long as you pay attention to what they are telling you and observe the differences in the mirror (and take notes) you can effect a change for the better.

[pygmalion]

Pygmalion wrote, "But, when teaching dance or anything else, teachers can't start out with heavy technique. They have to start with basic basics. In the case of dance, that means step patterns."

Who said basics were steps? The basics are embrace, posture, hearing the music, etc. Without that, a person cannot even step. You should not be angry about your former training, but angry that generally people (even professional dancers and teachers, whatever professional means) mistake patterns for dancing.

Ah yes! Spoken like a true tanguero. And you're right. I guess I should have questioned that approach more thoroughly. My ballroom teachers have all come from the perspective that dancing starts from the feet up. You learn the basics of what to do with your feet, then you can add teachnique, body movement, etc. But you're right. That's not necessarily the only approach.

[pygmalion]

In some cases, teachers have no control over what they teach (ie their boss tells them what, when & how). In others, it depends on the student. In the past, if I've had a student that had any sort of inclination towards learning the matieral, I'd give it to them as hard and heavy as I could. The whole schmear - technique, steps, you name it. In other cases, students haven't really cared what they learned as long as they could hobble through their wedding dance. :(

I guess that's where the anger comes from. I have always been the type that requests, no demands, the heavy-duty training. I want it all, not watered down. And I didn't get that to start. Not at all. I'm not sure if information was deliberately withheld to get me to buy more lessons, although that is certainly possible. It's also possible that my teachers at the time didn't have the technical foundation to give me what I needed.

I think you also make a good point about unintentionally mimicking habits of your teacher, good or bad. That's human nature. You can't help mirroring what you see. I guess that's why it pays to do whatever it takes to get a good teacher.

Either way, I'm stuck with working on a hand full of bad habits that I'd rather have been without. :x Fortunately for me, I now have a great, and very picky coach, who's whipping me into shape whether I like it or not! :lol:

[Danish Guy]

Just some thoughts. :shock: :oops: :shock:

Could the teachers be afraid of scaring new dancers away, with too much critique?

Are all the bad habits bad habits?
Or are there some personal style involved?

I know the Ballroom competitions have some strictly rules, while other dances are looser to individual interpretation?

Did the teacher know, that you was not looking for a ballroom survival kit, but was going for the gold?

[pygmalion]

You raise some good points, John. A lot of teachers do seem to avoid too much critique early in the game. And though I repeatedly tell them I want it, many teachers hold back. I guess they don't know I thrive when I'm pushed. *shrug*

[Danish Guy]

I guess they don't know I thrive when I'm pushed. *shrug*

Yeah, me to :D

[Sagitta]

Depends on the teacher and the class. It really does. However, I've been fortunate enough to be able to learn more even in "dumbed -down" classes. I make the point of asking questions, during breaks, after class, before...If an instructor really loves dance they appreciate the fact you want to get it right....This then followed through to me getting more stringent critiquing / more appropriate advise whenever the instructor came around to me.

[Sagitta]

I just realized that I have more to add!! While on the dance floor at a latin dance doing one of my first merengues I was told just do the swing moves that you know to the beat!! :x :evil: Created plenty bad habits that took time to unlearn. One of the reasons I decided to stop swing for a while. And I still occassionaly lapse into swing merengue. Aargh!! :headwall:

[IsaacAltman]

Bad habits usually are caused by lack of information and or practicing the wrong info.

[KevinL]

All the group classes that I've taken (and that I teach) have covered patterns and variations on patterns because that is what people who social dance want to know. They want to know how to move with a partner, and include a little variety in those movements.

I gloss over most technique (although I demonstrate it while demonstrating the patterns) because giving new dancers every technical detail would (in my opinion) frustrate them and drive them away from dance. My level I classes have little technique other than frame and lead and follow, and even then the new students often miss large parts of that. I cover more technique in my level II classes, but even then gloss over large parts of it.

I've mentioned Bobbi Davies (of the Vermont Dancesport Academy) before, and she takes a completely opposite approach. She teaches excellent dancers, and drills basics continually. However lots of people give up on her classes because they aren't "fun". Her students are incredible dancers, but most of them already had some form of dance experience before starting with her.

Part of the tradeoff for the cheap price of group classes is that the student can't control (very much) what the teacher shares with the group. Private lessons are a better place for technique because that way the teacher can focus on individual differences, and correct things there.

Having said all that, I do my best to demonstrate proper technique in class. I also answer questions regarding technique, if someone asks, but not to the same level that I would in private lessons because there will be other people in the group who won't even understand the question, much less the answer.

Kevin

[DancingMommy]

I have always been the type that requests, no demands, the heavy-duty training. I want it all, not watered down. And I didn't get that to start. Not at all. I'm not sure if information was deliberately withheld to get me to buy more lessons, although that is certainly possible. It's also possible that my teachers at the time didn't have the technical foundation to give me what I needed.

I've been that way too. I've actually had one coach apologise for being "too harsh". I told him not at all and that I was there to learn to DANCE not get an ego-boost. And while some studios do withhold information to get you to buy more, a lot of times it just that the "teacher" is not "prepared" to give the information - either in their own skills or teaching ability. Thos two things being different animals altogether.

I think you also make a good point about unintentionally mimicking habits of your teacher, good or bad. That's human nature. You can't help mirroring what you see. I guess that's why it pays to do whatever it takes to get a good teacher.

And this is not necessarily just inthe case of "dancing". Hubby has posture issues because he unintentionally mimcs our coach's "out of dance" posture sometimes. I mean our coach has SUPERB top-line/posture/etc when he's actually dancing or demonstrating something, but since he's uber-tall (compared to us) sometimes he slouches a bit when we're just chatting or he's watching us dance. Hubby mimcs that posture sometimes and it is driving him nuts! He says he has to be more careful (especially since he's a whopping 5'6" tall).

either way, I'm stuck with working on a hand full of bad habits that I'd rather have been without. :x Fortunately for me, I now have a great, and very picky coach, who's whipping me into shape whether I like it or not! :lol:

And sometimes it takes a while to et comfortable with your coach and they with you. At first, our coach wasn't going to ream us out, but after 4 years (can't believe it) he feels free.... Believe me!

Once upon a time, I was told that adults don't like being told "no" or "you are wrong" too much. I've found this to be true - to a point. Most people's egos can't take a constant barrage of "nope, try it over, get it right, no - this way". I think the dividing line is here:

Social/Casual Dancers want to "feel good"" about themselves and view dancing as a means to that end.

Competitive/Serious Dancers want to "get it right" no matter what it takes - ego notwithstanding.

Note: there are some Social dancers who are serious and some Competitive dancers who are casual. It is the mindset that determines which category they would fit in, rather than the eventual end result...

Since I had a Russian ballet teacher at one point (think carries around a big stick with which to whack the ankles), I've got less of a problem with being told "what for".

That make any sense at all????

[pygmalion]

This makes so much sense, DancingMommy.

I've never had a generalized social dancing mindset, and you wouldn't believe the arguments I've had with dance teachers. They'd tell me what I was doing was good, and I'd argue that it might be better, but it wasn't good enough. They just didn't seem to get it that I was after excellence, not a pat on the back of my overinflated ego. And, by the way, they considered me to be a problem child (a lucrative one, though, so they kept me lol!). I wouldn't accept mediocrity in myself at all. The only problem was that this meant I couldn't accept it in them, either.