I've never seen you dance, so I won't dance with you.

[borikensalsero]

The first time I went to a popular dance venue in the Bronx, this one lady had the audacity to say, I don’t want to dance with you because I’ve never seen you dance. Honest, but rude. My mouth dropped open, Girl, all you can do is the basic and a regular spin and you feel that you can question someone else dance ability!!

Ever since she looks at me with the look of, I want to dance with you, that is as close as she will get to dancing with me. I will never, never, ever dance with her! A no no to me is putting someone down just because you haven't seen them. Just like the question of do you dance on1 or on2. Ahhhhh

I dance with everyone who asks regardless of how little or much they know, but I also have my black-list going of who I won't dance with. She heads it. :twisted:

[tasche]

Well some peoples egos just get the better of them sometimes I guess.

[tasche]

Actually reminds me of when I was dancing the first time around as a youn pre teen and we used to have social runs by the school deisgned to allow us to pratice our moves. I asked one guy to dance. I didn't have a cursh on him or anything I was jsut trying to be nice and get in as many dances as possible. He turned me down flat. Of course in that case he got told off by a supervising teacher and I think got dentention for it too.

Pity that doesn't happen to rude adults

[Sagitta]

You mean to say that everyone had to dance with everyone else? Or was it the way that you got turned down?

[pygmalion]

That stuff doesn't just happen in salsa clubs, borikensalsero. The folks at the ballroom studio where I take lessons are the same way. None of them would dance with me the first three or four studio outings -- until they realized I can dance. Now, no problem. Then it was just as you say. Nobody would dance with me because they hadn't seen me dance. Que? How do people get to be so rude, and mean besides. I guess I never would have gotten to dance if I wasn't already good at it. :x

[tasche]

You mean to say that everyone had to dance with everyone else? Or was it the way that you got turned down?

It was the way I got turned down but it was also expected that if you were asked you ad to say yes after all when your 11-12 just asked takes alot of guts so they had alot of mixer dances to get people moving. Otherwise the super popular girls would be the only ones getting a look in.

Unfortunately theres no such safety net for adults. I was lucky that my first social experience as an adult was a positive one.

[DancingMommy]

I've been there before.... Had people say that to me too (not often).

But then, I wouldn't just think
"Girl, all you can do is the basic and a regular spin and you feel that you can question someone else dance ability!!"

I'd actually be saying it.... Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.


:headwall:

I can be such a witch at times. I've never been known for being really "nice" to people who are rude to me. I just give them back a full measure of whatever they dished out.... And then some. But of course, I always use the "Miss Manners Approved" version... Heheheheheh 8)

[NeoDevin]

If she asks you to dance again, try saying "I don't want to dance with you, because I've seen you dance"

[DancingMommy]

If she asks you to dance again, try saying "I don't want to dance with you, because I've seen you dance"

DUDE! That is WAY too nice. Gotta go for the full on body-slam for that one..... That's worse than abandoning your partner on the floor.....

[NeoDevin]

DUDE! That is WAY too nice. Gotta go for the full on body-slam for that one..... That's worse than abandoning your partner on the floor.....

I don't know which one I'd consider meaner, but I just like making the response fit the crime.

[peachexploration]

That stuff doesn't just happen in salsa clubs, borikensalsero. The folks at the ballroom studio where I take lessons are the same way. None of them would dance with me the first three or four studio outings -- until they realized I can dance. Now, no problem. Then it was just as you say. Nobody would dance with me because they hadn't seen me dance. Que? How do people get to be so rude, and mean besides. I guess I never would have gotten to dance if I wasn't already good at it. :x

Pygmalion, you are so right! This happened to me at a salsa studio social. My instructor recognized it (almost as if they were waiting to see if it would happen) and immediately and asked me to dance. After that, all of a sudden I had a full dance card. Silly how people make assumptions or think too much of themselves! :?

[borikensalsero]

It drives me nuts. Who died and made some of these folks God? Especially if you, yourself, can't hang. What is wrong? No wonder so many people get turned off on their first visit to social dance. Here we come all scared, giggly, frozen smile, then bang, No I won't dance with you.!!!

The thing that gets me is that some of the folks who are subject of such behavior when they learn to dance, they dish it out as well.

At least I know is like that for other dances too, which leaves the hypothesis that most salseros are A$$e$...

[KevinL]

If she asks you to dance again, try saying "I don't want to dance with you, because I've seen you dance"

Dude! Remind me never to piss you off. Between this and the middle of the dancefloor response I never want to be on the end of your bad mood!

(Not that I want to be on anyones' "bad" list, but you are scary!)

[NeoDevin]

Dude! Remind me never to piss you off. Between this and the middle of the dancefloor response I never want to be on the end of your bad mood!

(Not that I want to be on anyones' "bad" list, but you are scary!)

I never get mad at people, I just come up with creative, appropriate ways of getting even. So you don't have to worry about pissing me off ;)

[DanceMentor]

I've had the same thing happen to me a long time ago, and then they ended up asking me to dance. They explained reason they acted that way was because they had a bad experience with someone holding them too close and letting their hands wander, and now were afraid of new guys.

I would welcome newcomers to the dance forums, but I've never seen them type. :lol:

[youngsta]

Funny this topic would come up. My friends and I joke about it all the time. We've created the term 'demo doll'. See I was in San Jose back in August and went to a salsa club there. Couldn't get one girl to dance with me. So a friend I was meeting there showed up and we ran out on the floor and danced. The entire rest of the night I didn't sit down. So we call the person that helps you demonstrate your skills the demo doll. :lol:

[will35]

Believe it or not, some women pay men for that in Buenos Aires.

[youngsta]

I can definitely believe that will! I'm trying to plan a trip down to Argentia btw.

[will35]

Most guys in Buenos Aires absolutely refuse to dance with a girl until they have seen her dance. Unless the girl looks good...and easy. The tourist girls sometimes pay a good dancer to show them off to the others. I think it contributes to the problems. Some girls pay for a little more if you know what I mean. But, hey who is judging? The language barrier is one hell of a problem, but we want to keep Tango Tango, and that means going to where they do it best and sending our teachers and so forth.
Let me know before you go, maybe you'd like to visit some good milongas? I am a little out of touch since it has been a while since I have been, but I talk to other people there. It is hard to keep up with which are the good places. You know how to dance to Cumbia? They dance to that a lot in Buenos Aires.

[youngsta]

I'd just like to find a nice place to watch Tango, I don't dance it at all. I can dance cumbia but I don't care for the music all that much so I usually sit them out. When my plans become more solid I'll definitely have some questions for you.

[salsachinita]

I've had this bad experience in one of the elite L.A salsa clubs when I visited.

It's always been a habit of mine to ask guys for a dance, especially when I'm away from home (how else would they know I exist....?). People are generally quite nice but this one guy there looked me up and down for at lest 30 sec, then said: "How good are you?" :shock: I was shocked but replied, "I'm not bad, I will do my best to follow you."

Then he put me through some REAL tricky moves plus LOTS of multiple spins (my weakness :oops: ) so I ended up looking really incompetent. This must have created a bad image for me, coz I ended up sitting out for nearly the rest of the night, with very few offers/acceptances to dance :cry: (too bad I asked Mr. Showoff at the start of the night :x )!

So, (after this experience) sometimes I DO watch carefully how people dance before I dance with them.........just in case they have preferences/tendancies to do tricks/moves that I'm not very confident to cope with.......in case I embarrass them or myself :roll: :( .......

On a more positive note, I do accept dances from perfect strangers (very often visitors to my city :wink: ) and find them some of the BEST leads to dance with :D ! I have made many of my most important interstate/international connections this way 8) !

It PAYS to take a chance......!

[Vince A]

Come on, guys . . . it's just a dance!

You don't have to get even . . . :wink:

After knowing she had seen me dance and it looked like she wanted to dance with me, I would have gone up to her and said, "Have you seen me now?" Ask her to dance.

While dancing, I would have put her through a million-patterns-with-no-in-between-vanillas . . . you know work her a** off. If she follows it all, then you have a good future dance friend - even though it started off on the wrong foot. Or . . . if she didn't follow you, now would be the time to say some snide remark to her to insure that she never asked you again.

[youngsta]

I've had this bad experience in one of the elite L.A salsa clubs when I visited.
Steven's...Sportsmans? Do tell!! :D

[salsarhythms]

Hey salsachinita

That guy was a real a$$h**e!!

That was a stupid thing to do...you know what they say about
compensators...so don't even worry about it.

[NeoDevin]

Come on, guys . . . it's just a dance!

You don't have to get even . . . :wink:

After knowing she had seen me dance and it looked like she wanted to dance with me, I would have gone up to her and said, "Have you seen me now?" Ask her to dance.

While dancing, I would have put her through a million-patterns-with-no-in-between-vanillas . . . you know work her a** off. If she follows it all, then you have a good future dance friend - even though it started off on the wrong foot. Or . . . if she didn't follow you, now would be the time to say some snide remark to her to insure that she never asked you again.

My way is more fun ;)

[Vin]

On a more positive note, I do accept dances from perfect strangers (very often visitors to my city :wink: ) and find them some of the BEST leads to dance with :D ! I have made many of my most important interstate/international connections this way 8) !

It PAYS to take a chance......!

This is because if someone is travelling and the first thing they think to do in free time is hit up a salsa club, chances are they are an addict and most addicts become good in a short amount of time.

[salsachinita]

I've had this bad experience in one of the elite L.A salsa clubs when I visited.
Steven's...Sportsmans? Do tell!! :D

The Conga Room.....I think it was a Fri or Sat night, back in '99. Conjunto Amistad was the band.

[Dancegal]

People are generally quite nice but this one guy there looked me up and down for at lest 30 sec, then said: "How good are you?" :shock: I was shocked but replied, "I'm not bad, I will do my best to follow you."

Then he put me through some REAL tricky moves plus LOTS of multiple spins (my weakness :oops: ) so I ended up looking really incompetent. This must have created a bad image for me, coz I ended up sitting out for nearly the rest of the night, with very few offers/acceptances to dance :cry: (too bad I asked Mr. Showoff at the start of the night :x )!



My, that guy sure worked wonders for building a "dance community" (SARCASM).

[tsb]

The first time I went to a popular dance venue in the Bronx, this one lady had the audacity to say, I don’t want to dance with you because I’ve never seen you dance. Honest, but rude. My mouth dropped open, Girl, all you can do is the basic and a regular spin and you feel that you can question someone else dance ability!!

Ever since she looks at me with the look of, I want to dance with you, that is as close as she will get to dancing with me. I will never, never, ever dance with her! A no no to me is putting someone down just because you haven't seen them. Just like the question of do you dance on1 or on2. Ahhhhh

I dance with everyone who asks regardless of how little or much they know, but I also have my black-list going of who I won't dance with. She heads it. :twisted:

i offer this as something to consider: i have a friend who's a smokin' salsera. she agreed to dance with a stranger who attempted a poorly executed dip and broke two of her ribs. she no longer accepts invitations to dance from people she doesn't know and i don't blame her. i have another friend who's a swing dancer who's suffered a shoulder injury while dancing with a stranger and is also now very discriminating with whom she dances. and in general i know a lot of women who are apprehensive about dancing with strangers in a venue that serves alcohol.

so should you encounter this sort of response in the future i suggest trying to find out what they expect could be the worst thing that could happen if you were to dance with them.

[youngsta]

The Conga Room.....I think it was a Fri or Sat night, back in '99. Conjunto Amistad was the band.
Ahhhhhh. That's pretty much a Thurs night spot now. And yeah...there are some egos up in there! :lol:

[ChelseaGirl]

I'm primarily a swing dancer, but I can relate to the problems you're talking about. Dance snobs are very detrimental to the dance community. In New York, where I'm from (recently moved to Santa Fe though), it's absolutely brutal. The better dancers won't even talk to you, much less dance with you. I'm not saying that an advanced dancer has to dance with everyone, but if they know you because you've been in the same class and then they totally snub you in a club, and won't even say, "hi, how's it going," there's no excuse for that. I've been insulted on the dance floor too (usually by people who aren't nearly as good as they think they are), as have many of my friends. So far Santa Fe seems a lot nicer and mellower. Of course the scene is much smaller, so that may have a lot to do with the fact that it's less elitist than a very large city, where the quantity of dancers makes it easy for people to break off into smaller groups that are segregated by dance ability.

I'm new to this forum...I generally don't rant this way, but this post obviously struck a chord.

[KevinL]

I'm new to this forum...I generally don't rant this way, but this post obviously struck a chord.

Welcome to the forums!

I hope Santa Fe continues to be good to you!

Kevin

[Vince A]

Hi ChelseaGirl,
Welcome to the forums.

I'm an avid swing dancer as well. There are snobs and those that snub you everywhere you go . . . just do your thing, and hope that you can get a dance with those advanced dancers . . . fortunately for me, I have one in the family . . . and many of the local intermediate to advanced to pro dancers around here all dance with everyone . . . although there are the exceptions who are really stuck on themselves!

Again, welcome . . .
Vince

[borikensalsero]

welcome to the Forums ChelseaGirl, and I definitely agree with you about the NY City dance scene.

[Phil Owl]

I'm primarily a swing dancer, but I can relate to the problems you're talking about. Dance snobs are very detrimental to the dance community. In New York, where I'm from (recently moved to Santa Fe though), it's absolutely brutal. The better dancers won't even talk to you, much less dance with you. I'm not saying that an advanced dancer has to dance with everyone, but if they know you because you've been in the same class and then they totally snub you in a club, and won't even say, "hi, how's it going," there's no excuse for that. I've been insulted on the dance floor too (usually by people who aren't nearly as good as they think they are), as have many of my friends. So far Santa Fe seems a lot nicer and mellower. Of course the scene is much smaller, so that may have a lot to do with the fact that it's less elitist than a very large city, where the quantity of dancers makes it easy for people to break off into smaller groups that are segregated by dance ability.

I'm new to this forum...I generally don't rant this way, but this post obviously struck a chord.


This thread struck a chord for me too.

I too am primarily a swing dancer (though I love Hustle and Latin as well), and it really does hurt the dance community at large as well as individual people when you encounter unwarranted egotisim and snobbery like that.

I can definitely empathize with you and anybody who's been insulted on the dance floor (I had a very disenheartening experience a while back, detailed in my thread, "Ever Had One of Those Nights?" ) by someone who may actually know a fair amount, or may know very little but tries to put on a show anyway.

It seems to vary by what dance community you're in at the moment, sad to say sometimes. I found Swing to be the friendliest and Ballroom to be the snootiest with every shade in between.

When confronted with behavior like that, I remind myself that there is a very insecure person underneath all that and not to take it as an indication of my own worth as a person and just keep dancing anyway. I also have a strict "Never Dance With Rude People Policy". I couldn't care less if some snooty person comes up to me and begs for a dance with me, the answer remains NO! Learn your lesson well snooty egotist! Life is too short to be the target of your frustrations that you must face yourself. Always best to surround yourself with people that will encourage you. :D

[d nice]

The first time I went to a popular dance venue in the Bronx, this one lady had the audacity to say, I don’t want to dance with you because I’ve never seen you dance. Honest, but rude. My mouth dropped open, Girl, all you can do is the basic and a regular spin and you feel that you can question someone else dance ability!!

Ever since she looks at me with the look of, I want to dance with you, that is as close as she will get to dancing with me. I will never, never, ever dance with her! A no no to me is putting someone down just because you haven't seen them. Just like the question of do you dance on1 or on2. Ahhhhh

I dance with everyone who asks regardless of how little or much they know, but I also have my black-list going of who I won't dance with. She heads it. :twisted:

So, I don't suppose the fact that it is easier and more likely for a rough or bad lead to injure a follower, especially if she is only a beginner herself might be a reason why a folloqwer might say such a phrase?

I have no idea whether this was what she had in mind but it is definitelyt in the realm of the possible. I won't follow someone unless I have seen them dance, and I way 30lbs or more than the average follower. When I am injured I won't dance with anyone leader or follower unless I've seen them dance. I'm at less than 100% and protecting myself is harder with a pre-existing injury.

Would you have prefered that she lie to you? By being honest with you she was saying that it was conditional... she wasn't writing you off, but she didn't feel comfortable answering until she saw you dance. Different etiqutte from yours but is this really important enough to blackball her?

[ChelseaGirl]

I agree with PhilOwl's policy of not dancing with rude people. The first few times it happened I was so taken aback I didn't say or do anything. Now, I think if someone insulted me on the floor I'd probably walk off.
Thanks for your encouragement :D

[pygmalion]

Hi ChelseaGirl! It's really nice to have you with us. Welcome to the forums! :D

[borikensalsero]

I agree with Phil Owl. Obvious reasons aside (smelly people, injury, etc) There is no reason an advanced dancer should turn someone down. I don’t care who they are, or what they think dancing is. The advance dancer must always dance to the level of the lesser skilled dancer. So what if that person can’t dance, there is nothing physically wrong with you so have the dance. The chances of getting injured are always there. I’ve seen girls get injured while dancing with PROs, and advance dancers more than I have with non-skill dancers. What is to say that you will get injured dancing with this time? If it is going to happen, it will happen regardless of who you are dancing with. Besides, as person you have every right to put a stop to just about anything just by saying, don’t do this, don’t do that, if you do, I won’t dance with you again, before the dance even begins. I’ve had girls who even ask, please don’t spin me, don’t dip, etc, what do I do. I enjoy the dance regardless! why can’t everyone else?

This attitude of supremacy is the same we see in little kids when choosing teammates, no, not him, or him, nor her, I want him. I want my ego to feel better for whatever insecurity winning or dancing is going to cover in me. Being polite doesn’t hurt anyone. So what if you don’t get to spin the 400 times you wanted, so what if your pretzel is missing its left side? C’mon, can’t we all just get along. Now, it is up to you to seek the next dance if you want to, but to turn someone down because I haven’t seen them dance,…

With me, I dance even with 5 left feet monster from never-land. I don’t care, you are here to dance, so am I, unless of course, you are in my black list. There is no more satisfaction than seeing a lady turn newby after newby down, then come my way and get turned down. :twisted: I thought we were all created equal.

[samba ajr]

During a dance lesson at a social, I was picked by the instructor to demonstrate the combination we just learned. OK, fine, I'm being led by a pro, so of course I look good. :wink: Then we're asked to partner up. This guy, who had previously snubbed me before (read "you don't do international, I don't want to dance with you!") actually RAN to me (beating out a friend who was also heading my way). I didn't really have the option here of refusing him, we'd be switching partners soon anyway. But it took all my control to be polite. :roll:

[d nice]

Shrug... in a club scene most people go out to have fun... most often with there friends... dancing is just the back drop. You either accept it or don't.

It is always your perogative to blacklist people for not living up to your expectations... but that really is in no way any different than what they did. You have your ways of judging people they have theirs.

No one owes anyone anything at a club, or anywhere else to be honest. Sure we like to try and foster the idea of community and the like, but there is no reason why a club or even ballroom scene should be any different than any other aspect of our lives. People are clique-ish, enjoy a sense of superiority, and are often rude to those who have not earned distinction from part of the faceless masses.

The idea of an injury waiting to happen, regardless of who your partner is... is a philosophical arguement that I'm not going to get into... the point of the matter is what you believe in these regards is immaterial, the person who is fearful has the only opinion that matters in this regard.

Again... rude is defined by cultural expectations... Attempting to hold someone in contempt because they have different values and expectations does not seem very fair, tolerant, or accepting...

What was the intentions behind it? I'm not saying you were wrong, by no means do I intend to imply that... you were there I was not. Her intentions however I would think should be the deciding factor about whether she (or anyone for that matter) should be blacklisted. Did she mean to insult or offend you? Are you sure it was because she only would dance with people who were at or above a certain level? If so are you positive it was because she thought she was too good for those below that level? No chance that it might have been fear or her own insecurities about only being able to do the basic step and a basic turn and needing to have a stronger more capable lead inorder for her to dance?

Like I said I don't know. However I've been teaching and performing for years and have run into all sorts of weird hang-ups concerning dance, that on first appearance seem to be very egotistical, but in fact are anything but. I've found that some of those that appear to be the most friendly and humble at first glance are some of the biggest self-promotional, self-indulgent, self-promotional, myopic egotists imaginable... look at me! ;)

Seriousely, I give people a few chances,,, only after they have proven to have little regard for me and others do I write them off, and that is only when I'm positive that it was intended as an insult. Did I mention that dancing seems to attract a large amount of socially awkward people? No one here I'm sure, but I'm willing to bet every single person here can name at least two or three people in their local scene (of whatever dance, wherever in the world) that are socially defecient.

[salsachinita]

.....large city, where the quantity of dancers makes it easy for people to break off into smaller groups that are segregated by dance ability.

I agree. Our salsa scene used to be so much smaller, that everyone would be friendly & dance with one another. Now that we have enough people to pack a few clubs, the segregation really seems like it's here to stay :roll: !

Welcome to DF family! Let's hope lots of issues here struck a chord for you, ChealseaGirl!

[Blondie]

If she asks you to dance again, try saying "I don't want to dance with you, because I've seen you dance"

Wow! I love that remark!

:uplaugh:

[tsb]

Most guys in Buenos Aires absolutely refuse to dance with a girl until they have seen her dance. Unless the girl looks good...and easy. The tourist girls sometimes pay a good dancer to show them off to the others. I think it contributes to the problems. Some girls pay for a little more if you know what I mean. But, hey who is judging? The language barrier is one hell of a problem, but we want to keep Tango Tango, and that means going to where they do it best and sending our teachers and so forth.


did anyone else (in the states) laugh as hard as i did at the recent commerical featuring the goofy looking argentine tango dancer and his bulldog? i thought it was hilarious!

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

It is always your perogative to blacklist people for not living up to your expectations... but that really is in no way any different than what they did. You have your ways of judging people they have theirs.


Hi D Nice,

Even though I agree with most of what you said, I would just like to say that I have a black list and I am proud of it:

Black List
• Girls who have mortally wounded my dance ego.
• Girls who have refused a dance with me because they were “tired” and during the same song danced with someone else.

I refuse to dance with people who have either offended me or are simply rude and without character. These people, not only do I not want to dance with them, I also will not socialize with them.

Lets take the second situation for example. I think it is very rude and humiliating for the guy (or girl) and it shows no character. If they don’t want to dance with you, that’s fine, everyone has the right to choose who they want to dance with. However, I also have the right to never ask them again and put them on my black list, if I wish.

In society, we are responsable for our actions, our actions leads to consequences. We should be careful how we treat people. Have you ever heard that proverb, "Be nice to people on your way up, you´ll be meeting them on your way down".

[tsb]

It seems to vary by what dance community you're in at the moment, sad to say sometimes. I found Swing to be the friendliest and Ballroom to be the snootiest with every shade in between.

in my circles i personally have found social ballroom dancers to be most observant of dance etiquette (which is something i haven't seen a reference to within this entire thread, which surprises me), and have observed & experienced the most serious breaches of dance etiquette in salsa.

i would define etiquette in general as behavior designed to minimize if not avoid the implication of giving offense. in general, most people adhere to basic etiquette, but we should remember that we're assuming that they don't want to give offense. nowadays, i'm seeing (not just on the dance floors) that more people seem to think "i don't care if i offend that person because the consequences are trivial to me". but there are also a lot of people who just don't realize how they come across. going back to the original post, depending on the time of day, whether the sun were in my eyes or not, etc. i might have responded with:

"that's your perogative, but i hope you realize that the vast majority of the good dancers you say that to will not ask you to dance again. and not just tonight. i mean ever."

but oddly enough, something along the lines of: " that's ok, cuz' i really need to go take a piss anyway"

is more likely to get the point across & often compels them to come and try to make up when i come back from the restroom!