The "Developed Hold" in Standard

[samina]

was reminded whilst reading the american vs international thread that i've experienced a couple radically different holds with international standard partners, and am wondering if anyone here can elaborate a bit for me on the various holds out there.

specifically, last fall i was practicing with an older amateur dancer whose hold was very close, and who always wanted me to "chase his tummy". was a very secure hold and enabled me to follow him in many figures quite easily -- i'm a beginning bronze dancer but we went through all syllabus levels of several dances and on into champ & pro-level combinations.

when i had my first private lesson after starting to dance with this gentleman, my instructor noticed that my posture & frame were radically different -- "your dancing is... disturbed" -- and he had to reprimand me for "looking for him" with my torso.

upon further discussion with my amateur friend, i was told that my pro is using the "developed hold" with me, one that my friend had studied for a year but in the end gave up because he just wasn't able to stabilize it.

in the hold my pro uses, different from what some posters have mentioned in the am/intl thread, he does *not* compensate for my balance inadequacy at all... he expects me to be completely secure on my own and is instantly vocal if i waver.

and last week at ballroom on 5th i noticed an instructor using the torso-contact hold with his student. my contact with my instructor is at the hip.

so... are there names that these holds go by? who dances what kind of hold out there, with your partners & your instructors/coaches? i would very much like to be more informed about how the holds vary & are currently evolving...

:)

[Chris Stratton]

so... are there names that these holds go by?

yep.

right and wrong

;-)

[samina]

lmao...

pretty much all i got out of my pro, too.
;)

to quote... "chasing the torso is an idea whose time has passed..."

[NielsenE]

yep.

right and wrong

;-)

Everyone agrees with that.... just don't ask for which is which :)

[delamusica]

Everyone agrees with that.... just don't ask for which is which :)

lol! So true.

FWIW, I've always been taught that whether your middle torsos are touching or not, you're still responsible for your own movement and balance. If the guy was pulling you into himself, I'd guess it's just a bad habit he's picked up from dragging heavy follows around at socials.

Just a guess.

[samina]

If the guy was pulling you into himself, I'd guess it's just a bad habit he's picked up from dragging heavy follows around at socials.

Just a guess.

nah, even pro said it's the way he was originally taught, and then had to relearn things... it's apparently the way things used to be but that technique (and the expecation that woman hold their own) has evolved considerably since then.

so... guys... is there just the one vs. the other hold out there, or is it not so black & white? and am wondering why the new hold is called "developed", and who's using it out there? where did it come from... anybody have more info on this?
:)

[Chris Stratton]

I have some fairly strong beliefs about how a hold should work, but something I would also point out is that when the dancing is going well, the details of the hold are not really apparent by feel. Probably in part because they probably aren't too far "wrong" in that case, but more importantly becuase the job is getting done. There's a decorative aspect, and a security/comfort aspect, but mostly we are talking communication. And if you both feel like you know exactly where the other person is and is going, and that they know where you are and are going, then that's a fair fraction of what is needed.

Put another way, the hold pays the price for the majority of potential mistakes in dancing.

Lack of attention to where partner is or needs to go -> hold problems

Improper causality/sequencing between movement of your body and your own feet -> hold problems

Poor footwork -> hold problems

Poorly planned/proportioned movements -> hold problems

Poor posture -> hold problems

Overly difficult material -> hold problems

and so on.

[fascination]

was reminded whilst reading the american vs international thread that i've experienced a couple radically different holds with international standard partners, and am wondering if anyone here can elaborate a bit for me on the various holds out there.

specifically, last fall i was practicing with an older amateur dancer whose hold was very close, and who always wanted me to "chase his tummy". was a very secure hold and enabled me to follow him in many figures quite easily -- i'm a beginning bronze dancer but we went through all syllabus levels of several dances and on into champ & pro-level combinations.

when i had my first private lesson after starting to dance with this gentleman, my instructor noticed that my posture & frame were radically different -- "your dancing is... disturbed" -- and he had to reprimand me for "looking for him" with my torso.

upon further discussion with my amateur friend, i was told that my pro is using the "developed hold" with me, one that my friend had studied for a year but in the end gave up because he just wasn't able to stabilize it.

in the hold my pro uses, different from what some posters have mentioned in the am/intl thread, he does *not* compensate for my balance inadequacy at all... he expects me to be completely secure on my own and is instantly vocal if i waver.

and last week at ballroom on 5th i noticed an instructor using the torso-contact hold with his student. my contact with my instructor is at the hip.

so... are there names that these holds go by? who dances what kind of hold out there, with your partners & your instructors/coaches? i would very much like to be more informed about how the holds vary & are currently evolving...

:)with me it has changed with my level of proficiency...and it also varies a bit even within what move we are doing in some ways

[Joe]

Some people teach different ways based on what's important to them. Some teach the lady to ride the man's right hip (to provide constant positioning). Some want the contact to be the lower ribcage (to allow the legs to be freer). Some want it to be in the hips and thighs (to produce a bigger top). Some want little to no contact at all (because the contact is a crutch for not being on your own balance). None of them is really wrong, because they all have valid reasons for being taught that way.

[fascination]

well said joe

[Purr]

Very good points, Joe.

[samina]

okay, but are there no technical names for these different holds... no specifics about what makes each hold different? is it just "do whatever you want", with nobody having defined what makes each hold unique and preferable for different needs?

does anybody know?

or is this just a kind of vague mystical thing that each dancer does based on what their own teacher passed down to them?

would seem very strange to me if, with everything else so codified, the holds themselves are left undefined...

[Peaches]

I hear you, Samina. It's something that I've kinda been struggling with, as well.

I've got 2 teachers, and they each think of frame very differently and want different things from me. It's...interesting. I haven't quite figured out how to make the 2 things mesh in my head, yet, but I figure that's because i'm such a newbie.

But, yeah, the lack of codifcation in this (when every other blasted, bloody thing in standard is codified, even if no one really follows the book, which drives me absolutely nuts) is kind of bizarre.

[fascination]

ya know...when it all comes down...even at the highest levels...they disagree...but in general...I always have something light going on from just under my ribcage to my hip...they just disagree...I have had two top level coaches tell us two completely different thing in the span of a month...and again, what might happen on a corte is what I am trying to do at some other time...for me, it is more and more about how does this maximize our ability to move as a team...generally speaking if we like how it feels as a team, not to be confused with not working hard to stay in that position, we are going to keep it until a coach we really respect comes in and gives us a very good reason to change it

[fascination]

I hear you, Samina. It's something that I've kinda been struggling with, as well.

I've got 2 teachers, and they each think of frame very differently and want different things from me. It's...interesting. I haven't quite figured out how to make the 2 things mesh in my head, yet, but I figure that's because i'm such a newbie.

But, yeah, the lack of codifcation in this (when every other blasted, bloody thing in standard is codified, even if no one really follows the book, which drives me absolutely nuts) is kind of bizarre.meh, nothing can really be pinned down at the highest levels in any field;)

[Peaches]

And that drives me crazy.

If you're going to codify it, then follow it. If you're not going to bother following the book, then don't bother having the book. Drives me crazy.

To me, it's like having programming specs that don't match the actual program. Either change the program to match the specs, or visa versa, or just throw out the specs and admit that they don't apply. Argh!

(But I'm just uptight like that.)

[samina]

i think that generally my upper body is rotated away from him to my left, so making contact with his torso wouldn't occur. or at least... that's what he wants from me. i have a hard time renewing that rotation during dance.

do you guys have that corkscrewing away from your partner going on in your hold?

[Peaches]

Depends on the teacher.

One teacher wants corkscrewing away. The other wants me to spiraled towards him.

[fascination]

And that drives me crazy.

If you're going to codify it, then follow it. If you're not going to bother following the book, then don't bother having the book. Drives me crazy.

To me, it's like having programming specs that don't match the actual program. Either change the program to match the specs, or visa versa, or just throw out the specs and admit that they don't apply. Argh!

(But I'm just uptight like that.)yep...uptight...lol...let go ;)

[fascination]

i think that generally my upper body is rotated away from him to my left, so making contact with his torso wouldn't occur. or at least... that's what he wants from me. i have a hard time renewing that rotation during dance.

do you guys have that corkscrewing away from your partner going on in your hold?lol...I have had a us champ suggest that you should always be trying to give the man your uh..left...uh bosom...but ya can't really pull the right one too far away either....or you've opened up too much...it's a crap shoot:rolleyes:

[samina]

lol...I have had a us champ suggest that you should always be trying to give the man your uh..left...uh bosom...but ya can't really pull the right one too far away either....or you've opened up too much...it's a crap shoot:rolleyes:

giving him your left bosom, not your right? <trying to imagine this technical impossible whilst corkscrewing away from him> i might be able to manage my right one, if he wants it. LOL

[fascination]

well if I am rotating left which one is most likely to be rotating toward him?

[fascination]

it's really only your head that is going away from him...the rest of you should be as forward through your back as possible...again...IMO

[fascination]

giving him your left bosom, not your right? <trying to imagine this technical impossible whilst corkscrewing away from him> i might be able to manage my right one, if he wants it. LOLwell, as I said, from what I understand, he doesn't want the right one to go very far away either...but the left one is the bigger deal

[samina]

well if I am rotating left which one is most likely to be rotating toward him?

dunno how you're built, honey, but if i'm taking my left away from him, my busom is comin with me... LOL

[fascination]

but you aren't IMO...you are rotating your body and so your head which is the tip of the whip is away but your bosom is neatly arching toward him as part of the rotation.IME

[samina]

it's really only your head that is going away from him...the rest of you should be as forward through your back as possible...again...IMO

this answers my question... doesn't sound like the same corkscrew effect is going on with you guys once you get into the hold.

see, this is another thing... wouldn't this approach have a name, wouldn't it be called a particular technique, even if just so that people could endlessly debate its merits???

i would think it should be so easy to say, "ah yes, well, i'm being taught in the XYZ model... are you?" but here we have to sort it out with talk of busoms & such before it becomes apparent whether we're doing the same thing or not.

there should be a frame & hold book out there: "to give thy busom... or not"
;)

[fascination]

lol...for me its just how I do CBM and how we dance in closed hold...but I am sure what it really is is our coach's version of the best way to effect it

[samina]

but you aren't IMO...you are rotating your body and so your head which is the tip of the whip is away but your bosom is neatly arching toward him as part of the rotation.IME

see, i'm rotating my torso away, toward my left elbow, and the left side of my torso is going with it. he's rotating away to his left. creates volume, i suppose. he's actually shaping me this way, but i have to remember to allow myself to be shaped...

[fascination]

and trust me...it feels screwy to the max...object being for the heads to be as far apart as possible...MUST go now...more later

[fascination]

see, i'm rotating my torso away, toward my left elbow, and the left side of my torso is going with it. he's rotating away to his left. creates volume, i suppose. he's actually shaping me this way, but i have to remember to allow myself to be shaped...you may be rotating it left but as it is turning left it should be moving toward him...you cant roatat left in his arms away from him...at least not in the way that I am thinking...must go...more later...head away yes, body no...but hey...probably talking about the same thing in different ways...and if it is working and hes' happy w/ it...it is likely right;)

[samina]

you may be rotating it left but as it is turning left it should be moving toward him...you cant roatat left in his arms away from him...

that's exactly what i'm doing... torso away, most definitely

this is going to be a bee in my bonnet if i discover nobody ever bothered to give this technique a name...

i'll just have to name it myself, then! LOL

[tangotime]

Simple answer-- its refered to as " Shape "

[samina]

yes, that's what i mentioned -- he's shaping me away from him, and he told me not to practice that on my own, to let him do it. although when we dance i very often disallow it. i have to remember to r.e.f.r.e.s.h. my position so that i can fall away from him.

so... it's as simple as, some pros use shaping more than others?

[samina]

(btw, thanks tango...)
:)

[White Chacha]

The problem with codifying the hold is that it has in part been driven by fashion and preference and school. If you look at old photos, you'll see something rather different from what's common now in top couples.

Even now, among top couples, you can see different amounts of offset. Things you can't see are the amount of force in the contact, and the extent of the contact (how much and where).

I can't say I've ever heard of taking the left side away from your partner. One prominent female coach in the area has been heard to say "point your boobs at him dear" to the ladies.

[fascination]

we are totally about shape...are you saying you are moving the LEFT side of your torso AWAY from him...be back for answer in two hours?...I am befuddled

[fascination]

The problem with codifying the hold is that it has in part been driven by fashion and preference and school. If you look at old photos, you'll see something rather different from what's common now in top couples.

Even now, among top couples, you can see different amounts of offset. Things you can't see are the amount of force in the contact, and the extent of the contact (how much and where).

I can't say I've ever heard of taking the left side away from your partner. One prominent female coach in the area has been heard to say "point your boobs at him dear" to the ladies.yes

[samina]

are you saying you are moving the LEFT side of your torso AWAY from him...

yes. absolutely.

i get into the hold, with my head/spine curved slight to the left, and then i rotate AWAY from his body, toward my left. feels like i am corkscrewing away from him.

there is absolutely no contact of my left with him... in fact, my left side is stretched as far away from him as possible, it feels. but our hips remain engaged.

human corkscrew

[samina]

as i said, dunno how well i maintain this, but if i end up with a decent picture of this from the comp (at least, in a moment when it feels like that is what i'm doing), i will definitely post it for comment.

[tangotime]

Having been " schooled " back in the forties, you would not believe how much the proverbial shape has changed. The " pitch " was considerably more forward, and some would say, it promoted a far more natural ease of "swing " , in the progressive dances .
If you were to examine the mans right arm position in Tango , from that period , it looks more like the Tango Arg. hold that is sometimes employed in todays hold . The top became far more compact , and gave a feeling of embrace which is lacking to some degree in the Intern style

[skwiggy]

I can't think of any instance in any correct hold that I know of where you would want to take your torso away from the man. Especially not the left side of it. But it's entirely possible that it's just what you needed to hear to undo something you were already doing, if you had taken something too far in the other direction. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're talking about.

But as far as I know in all the many different holds and connections I've seen, generally speaking, you never ever want to take your left side away from the man. I'm always open to new ideas though, given they come with a plausible explanation. :)

[Dancebug]

I was scatching my head, too....

[Chris Stratton]

There's some left-side forward stretch and rotation in the body perhaps up through the chest (which would actually be rotation to the right, or clockwise). However, it can't be that simple. It's almost counteracted by a slight rotation the other way in the shoulders, as the lady's left shoulder and elbow need to stay "out" to create that "corner" of the topline, and not get lost "in" around the man's right side.

[samina]

interesting. i'm going to ask for a review of this shaping this week, with special focus on where the left side of my torso goes during the shaping. but am pretty sure i have described it accurately here.

IAE, i trust his instruction and will not second guess -- where he tells me to go, i shall... provided i'm able. :)

it is curious, tho, the different responses here. again, i do wish there were nomenclature to describe these differences. i don't understand why there is not. even if the techniques were just to be named after the dancers that introduced them, as in gynmastics & ice skating...

no one has any input on that?

[samina]

There's some left-side forward stretch and rotation in the body perhaps up through the chest (which would actually be rotation to the right, or clockwise). However, it can't be that simple. It's almost counteracted by a slight rotation the other way in the shoulders, as the lady's left shoulder and elbow need to stay "out" to create that "corner" of the topline, and not get lost "in" around the man's right side.

certainly, i would feel this way in promenade, but in closed hold... cannot imagine how a left-side forward stretch would apply

(i don't mean the left side would be forward in promenade... but the rotation to the right with a stretch felt across the left to try to keep it back into the man's elbow)

[skwiggy]

certainly, i would feel this way in promenade, but in closed hold... cannot imagine how a left-side forward stretch would apply

(i don't mean the left side would be forward in promenade... but the rotation to the right with a stretch felt across the left to try to keep it back into the man's elbow)

Left side forward stretch ALWAYS applies. :)

And for the first time ever, I not only understand what Chris wrote, but I also agree with it. Yes, torso to the man, left shoulder, elbow and head away.

No, unfortunately I don't think there are any names for the different types of connections and holds. Why don't you make an attempt at naming them, and we'll see if we can come to some agreement here? Hey, it would be a start. :)

[samina]

Left side forward stretch ALWAYS applies. :) And for the first time ever, I not only understand what Chris wrote, but I also agree with it. Yes, torso to the man, left elbow and head away.

now i am befuddled. <lol>

No, unfortunately I don't think there are any names for the different types of connections and holds. Why don't you make an attempt at naming them, and we'll see if we can come to some agreement here? Hey, it would be a start. :)

great idea, then! :)

what i'm talking about: definitely "corkscrewing". couldn't be achieved if my left side stayed forward & to the man.

[samina]

chris, am looking at your hold in your avatar... imagine starting with that, and then shaping her torso away from you toward her left while you shape yours away from her as well...

in that case, if her left side were forward, wouldn't it would jam her neck rather than allow it to curve fluidly in a natural arc with her curved spine?

[tangotime]

I think sometimes, we look for the "magic" bullet. there are so many related issues at play here. The height difference of the couple, lenght of arm in man and lady , shoe height etc etc.
One can only adjust to what your natural body has given you, any attempt to implement same,beyond that. will only result in a very un- natural look and possibly stiffening of the whole posture.

This is a topic which can really only be truly " satisfied " , with good coaching .; descriptions are fine, but they do not always address, maybe, other important issues that may be in play .

[skwiggy]

what i'm talking about: definitely "corkscrewing". couldn't be achieved if my left side stayed forward & to the man.

So in my mind's eye, "corkscrewing" and "spiraling" seem the same, but spiraling has always referred to rotating towards and around the partner, not away from. So is there really a difference in these 2 words? Or would we need more words to distinguish?

We've distinguished here between "body" dancing and "frame" dancing, so I suppose that could be another distinction. But then within each there are so many subtle subsets. For example, the high connection, vs. the low connection, vs. the long connection, etc.

[skwiggy]

what i'm talking about: definitely "corkscrewing". couldn't be achieved if my left side stayed forward & to the man.

I'm still totally stuck on this in my mind. I'm trying to keep an open mind about this, but this goes against everything I know about Standard dancing! Keeping my left side forward to the man has always been like the panacea of a good hold, no matter which method I'm working with. I'm trying so hard to understand how any cooperative movement or hold would require going against this in order to be achieved.

[samina]

So in my mind's eye, "corkscrewing" and "spiraling" seem the same, but spiraling has always referred to rotating towards and around the partner, not away from. So is there really a difference in these 2 words? Or would we need more words to distinguish?

i definitely do not mean towards & around my partner, so it seems these two words describe similar but opposite actions, like natural & reverse

am curious... does anyone here know the current hold as the "developed" hold, and if so... who coined the phrase? where did it come from?

tangotime, your pet peeve is nomenclature... have you nothing to say on this, man? LOL

[Chris Stratton]

Most people seem to be describing the forward stretch of the left side, towards or even almost past the partner.

Samina seems to be describing the need to fill out the left side, stretching almost back and away.

Both are important, and both have to happen at the same time.

[samina]

I'm still totally stuck on this in my mind. I'm trying to keep an open mind about this, but this goes against everything I know about Standard dancing! Keeping my left side forward to the man has always been like the panacea of a good hold, no matter which method I'm working with. I'm trying so hard to understand how any cooperative movement or hold would require going against this in order to be achieved.

i'm sorry to trigger such a conundrum! :)

i will be supremely embarrassed if i discover i have hallucinated this whole thing. LOL

i've been trying various variations out here in my office, experimenting with left-side forward while doing the corkscrew in a closed hold and i can't find an instance where i recognize the left-side forward as something my instructor wanted me to do. completely changes my shape if i try that.

this sounds to me like a stylistic departure that should have an origin somewhere - for example, in a difference between english-style vs. italian-style dancing. could that be it, perhaps?

[samina]

I think sometimes, we look for the "magic" bullet. there are so many related issues at play here. The height difference of the couple, lenght of arm in man and lady , shoe height etc etc.
One can only adjust to what your natural body has given you, any attempt to implement same,beyond that. will only result in a very un- natural look and possibly stiffening of the whole posture.

yes, i was thinking about this earlier and thought i'd wait before mentioning it... but i remember luca baricchi addressing this in one of his youtube lecture videos -- the couple comes together and finds their unique hold based on how their bodies find each other, and no two configurations will be alike.

leads me to another nuance about taking the hold... again, while at ballroom on 5th last week, i saw this same couple i mentioned earlier doing the opposite of something my own pro is very strict about -- the instructor had clearly taught his student to step into the hold and to find his body with her own. she came in and created a close contact right from the start.

by contrast, i'm told to "take care of yourself and don't look for me", making no adjustments whatsoever to fit into his body. he takes hold of me, shapes me, i follow him into our setup, and then we're off, with our bodies finding each other as we move.

judging from the lack of common nomenclature for the holds, i doubt there's a name for these different nuances (see, if it were left up to me, i'd have every little nuance precisely labeled & defined; otherwise, how inefficient to pass the information down!).

but how are you all doing this as a couple? who comes in right away to find the man and who is being taught as i am, to "take care of myself"? curious where the trends of pedagogy are threading through...

[skwiggy]

am curious... does anyone here know the current hold as the "developed" hold, and if so... who coined the phrase? where did it come from?

Never heard this term. But then, based on your description, I've never heard of doing it the way your instructor describes either, so it would make sense I wouldn't have a name for it. ;)

And I've never heard any term to name the differences in holds, aside from "body" vs "frame" as I mentioned before.

[samina]

Never heard this term. But then, based on your description, I've never heard of doing it the way your instructor describes either, so it would make sense I wouldn't have a name for it. ;)

And I've never heard any term to name the differences in holds, aside from "body" vs "frame" as I mentioned before.

i think the corkscrewing is different from the developed hold, though -- the first is shaping he does to me after i'm in the hold, while the developed hold is how he's... well... holding me. :) very independent balance-wise, but i don't know anything more about it.

[Chris Stratton]

leads me to another nuance about taking the hold... again, while at ballroom on 5th last week, i saw this same couple i mentioned earlier doing the opposite of something my own pro is very strict about -- the instructor had clearly taught his student to step into the hold and to find his body with her own. she came in and created a close contact right from the start.

It can be hard to tell if what you are seeing is "recommended" without taking into account the full context.

For example, it's a famous studio, but anyone with $20 can take their student there.

It might be a famous teacher, but is the student really trying to be an oustanding dancer? Or is the teacher simply going with what makes it easiest to accomplish her goals?

It might even be a famous teacher and an outstanding student, but perhaps they've decided to concentrate on creating some visual or overall performance aspect, rather than to do everything in the technically ideal way.

Or maybe they are and they have, but they simply have a different idea of what correct would be ;-)

---

In terms of the technical side of it, I'd like to distinguish between being somewhat oriented to your partner's body (good) vs. pushing against it (bad) - the later has often been requested as a shortcut to security in situations where a teacher didn't feel there was time to develop a more sophisticated/nuanced hold, especially if the leader is going to try to manipulate the follower's body into more expressive positions than she's yet capable of creating on her own.

[Laura]

One teacher wants corkscrewing away. The other wants me to spiraled towards him.
Aren't these the same? Look at a corkscrew. It's a spiral. So if you're corkscrewing away, doesn't that mean you are also spiraling toward at the same time?

[samina]

Aren't these the same? Look at a corkscrew. It's a spiral. So if you're corkscrewing away, doesn't that mean you are also spiraling toward at the same time?

it just depends toward which direction the leftward side of the body moves to initiate the spiral -- i'm talking about spiraling my left side away from the man, while it seems others on the thread are talking about left side forward, toward the man's torso.

my instructor likened what i'm doing to a corkscrew, so since it appears to be different from the spiral direction others here are mentioning, that's where the difference in terminology helps.

[skwiggy]

Aren't these the same? Look at a corkscrew. It's a spiral. So if you're corkscrewing away, doesn't that mean you are also spiraling toward at the same time?

Woah. That's deep. :)

[samina]

Woah. That's deep. :)

yeah... the m.e.t.a.physics of shaping. :D

[Laura]

The problem with codifying the hold is that it has in part been driven by fashion and preference and school.
And also by the bodies and other attributes that the two partners bring to the dancing. I took a group class years ago with Victor Veyrasset and Heather Smith where these sorts of questions about what is "exactly" the right thing to do were answered by an explanation that "it all depends." Victor then talked about how when he first started dancing with Heather, it took them a while to sort out their hold and position because Heather's arms were longer than Victor's previous partner's.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the corrections a teacher gives one are often relative to what one is already doing. So, if one does too much of a thing and too little of another, one's coach might use different words and emphasize different things to concentrate on as compared to how the coach would explain it to another student.

[samina]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the corrections a teacher gives one are often relative to what one is already doing. So, if one does too much of a thing and too little of another, one's coach might use different words and emphasize different things to concentrate on as compared to how the coach would explain it to another student.

yes, true. my own instructor did not introduce this corkscrewing away action for months -- he explained it was just another layer, something that would've been confusing at first.

fwiw, it wasn't introduced in a remedial capacity to compensate for something else i was doing, just as a more advanced aspect of technique.

[Laura]

I can't think of any instance in any correct hold that I know of where you would want to take your torso away from the man. Especially not the left side of it. But it's entirely possible that it's just what you needed to hear to undo something you were already doing, if you had taken something too far in the other direction.
Exactly. I have experienced this...somewhere along the line I had started developing the habit of wrapping my left side around the guy, to the point where I'd end up in some weird position where my left side was kind of forward but my shoulders would pitch kind of right, going across the guy's center line. It was quite twisted and awkward, and so my teacher told me to stretch my left side away from him going sideways. So it wasn't like I was asked to pull my left side backwards away from him, I was basically just told to stop wrapping it forward around him and twisting oddly through my shoulders.

[skwiggy]

by contrast, i'm told to "take care of yourself and don't look for me", making no adjustments whatsoever to fit into his body. he takes hold of me, shapes me, i follow him into our setup, and then we're off, with our bodies finding each other as we move....

...but how are you all doing this as a couple? who comes in right away to find the man and who is being taught as i am, to "take care of myself"? curious where the trends of pedagogy are threading through...

Let's see here. "Take care of yourself", is excellent advice. Your own balance and alignment should always be your first priority, regardless of the hold!

"He takes hold of me, shapes me". This causes me to hesitate. Your partner should not be shaping you. Perhaps it's semantics, but to me this creates images of him doing your job for you. Does he initiate the shape? Yes. Does he communicate with his own body which shape he wants you to create with your own? Of course. Does he create the proper space, timing and conditions for you to create the shape on your own? Absolutely. Does he actually do the shaping for you? I sure hope not.

As far as whether you look for the man, ideally not. You should definitely always be balanced within your own body, first and foremost. But then your second priority should be balance within the couple. This doesn't mean chasing after his center with yours, looking for him. I think this means both members of the partnership working together with a cooperative goal and timing to keep the couple balanced and moving together, with the man starting the communication and the lady reciprocating. Not the lady chasing after the man to try and stay wherever he is.

[Dancebug]

Chris’s post (about needing to know the context before making any conclusions) reminds me of the olden days when we just started to take lessons with our new coach. When we first came to our current coach, my partner and I had been working with different coaches (a couple team) for a while and we had developed our own style of holds. We had extremely close torso contact and our coach noticed that we were pushing each other, making our dances unnecessarily difficult. So he had us dance without any body contact at all for a while. His goal was to break our bad habit before he attempted to mold it into better one. It made us rethink about dance, not only about the hold. But I bet we made a lot of folks scratch their heads during that period.

[samina]

"He takes hold of me, shapes me". This causes me to hesitant. Your partner should not be shaping you. Perhaps it's semantics, but to me this creates images of him doing your job for you. Does he initiate the shape? Yes. Does he communicate with his own body which shape he wants you to creat with your own? Of course. Does he create the proper space, timing and conditions for you to create the shape on your own? Absolutely. Does he actually do the shaping for you? I sure hope not.

well, let me be clear... i'm not a shapeless blob when he takes hold of me. LOL
but the shaping is definitely part of his lead -- so i (ideally) respond to his lead and shape accordingly. i don't lead it on my own. it's part of the synergy of the unit.

anyway, it requires some resistance on his part because i am going away from him. if i tried to do it on my own, without his piece, i'd be holding my own musculature in a way that didn't make sense. there's a very nice feeling of rotating away from each other's body energy when it happens.

[madmaximus]

Unraveling the mystery that is the International Standard hold, is simply first realizing that there actually IS a common TEMPLATE for it.
(They are known as the "five points of contact").

AND There are three major factors that will affect this template.
--Physical proportion
--Movement
--Magnitude

PROPORTION.
There are aesthetic rules that govern the lines of the body--that, in turn, have to exist within the framework of how two bodies must coexist to move seamlessly and accurately.
Aesthetic Rules such as creating lines from the wrist to the elbow, elbow to the opposite shoulder, and so on.
Thus, the length of a womans left arm will dictate its placement on the gentleman's upper arm.
The length of the gent's right arm will dictate its placement on the lady's back.
Being 3 dimensional, with should look at aesthetic proportions from 3 dimensions as well.


MOVEMENT.
As beginners, we seldom look at the hold in motion--which is what we must do to first understand it.
The hold is a dynamic creation of two semi-synchronized bodies moving through 3 dimensional space.
Every step (and there are different types of step) that we make will inevitably change the hold.
Therefore understanding the AESTHETIC PROPORTION of the hold will enable us to configure and manage the angles of the elbows, wrists, and shoulders.
It will help us understand HOW and WHY we SHAPE.
It will help us understand why body contact will range from hip-to-hip to middle-ribcage, and so on.
Also note, that the TYPE AND ACCURACY of the figure being performed: line, reverse, or natural, will directly affect these proportions.


MAGNITUDE.
Several aspects in this factor--here's a couple.
The magnitude of one's movement will affect how one manages the aesthetic proportions of the hold.
Longer steps may enable a deeper amount of sway, and a more radical angle on the top line.
Which in turn will also affect hip contact at that point in time.

Some prefer the gent's left arm to be vertical, some prefer it at an angle tilted away (obtuse? angle) .
Some prefer a position that creates the most "apparent" distance between the heads--all of which affect the nature of the body contact, which in turn... well you get the picture.



So when you look at a "BIG" hold versus a "CLASSICAL" hold, it is easy to understand by referring to their common foundation and realizing how it is stabilized and "developed" using these factors.


At the end of the day, the governing rule is AESTHETICS--and how the above factors are managed to create the silhouette as it should look like while moving.

[whew! Now back under the radar...bye]



m

[Laura]

by contrast, i'm told to "take care of yourself and don't look for me", making no adjustments whatsoever to fit into his body. he takes hold of me, shapes me, i follow him into our setup, and then we're off, with our bodies finding each other as we move.
The thing is, you if you've danced with your teacher or partner for more than about two days, you're going to automatically make adjustments as you "take care of yourself," right? I mean really -- you're not just going to stand there like you're waiting for a bus and then have your teacher do all the work, right?

In my mind, both methods you describe are true, but it's a matter of timing and emphasis. My teacher doesn't want me to come into hold and then spend time moving around, adjusting, and looking like I'm "finding" him with my body. Rather, he wants me to come in already lifted and stretched and shaped -- but not shaped in some abstract sense, shaped in the way that I will need to be for us to dance together with each other. In other words, I'll have done all the adjusting and "finding" in advance, based on all the time we've spent together dancing already, so that I don't have to mess around once I get into position.

[samina]

thanks, max... a mouthful. :)

i'll be able to comment intelligently after about a decade of practical application of these principles. until then... i'll stick with the small bits i've been able to m.e.t.abolize after laborious chewing. ;)

[samina]

The thing is, you if you've danced with your teacher or partner for more than about two days, you're going to automatically make adjustments as you "take care of yourself," right? I mean really -- you're not just going to stand there like you're waiting for a bus and then have your teacher do all the work, right?

actually, it's exactly like that. <lol>

no adjustments to him whatsoever at the beginning. he invites me in, i take his hand, i place my body a certain way, he takes hold, and there we go. i do not adjust to his frame -- i'm very quiet unless i'm responding to his lead.

[Chris Stratton]

Thus, the length of a womans left arm will dictate its placement on the gentleman's upper arm. The length of the gent's right arm will dictate its placement on the lady's back.

I would strongly dispute that. There is proper place where each hand needs to be, and moving it will loose the important properties of being in that place. In terms of connection the hands themselves are much more important then the arms - you are going to have to make adjustments for arm length somewhere other than in the position of the hands. In the end, the position of your hands is actually much more fixed and constant in relation to your partner's body than it is in relation to your own.

Some prefer the gent's left arm to be vertical, some prefer it at an angle tilted away (obtuse? angle) .
Some prefer a position that creates the most "apparent" distance between the heads--all of which affect the nature of the body contact, which in turn... well you get the picture.

There's a simply three part functional requirement that dictates what is and isn't a workable position.

1) both wrists must be unbroken
2) palms must be in contact
3) lady's palm must be connected to her right back.

Within those constraints, pretty much all you can do is vary the overall size - you can have a compact version of the hold or a big one.

Luca for example has put a fair amount of emphasis in his explanations on "function" rather than "form" - meaning form in the sense of the allegedly desireable look. I would take that and say, find the elements that are functional (typically the hands) and get those, then try to float the other parts such as the arms when possible towards their best positions - but always maintain the functional part even if you loose the arms.

[Laura]

actually, it's exactly like that. <lol>
Okay, so then my next question is, what is his philosophy on starting the dance? I've danced with people who like to start moving as quickly as possible, and others who don't mind burning a couple of bars of music while getting into position doing their shaping, and that big side step, etc. My teacher is one of those "let's get moving as soon as possible" people, which is why he wants me to come in all lifted and stretched and shaped and ready to go so that the second we get close we can start dancing. Sometimes we're not even in full hold when we take our first steps (this is by design in how our Quickstep starts, and sometimes happens in the Waltz and Foxtrot).

Now, I've been at this for quite a number of years, so it might not be something that someone with less experience and less developed understanding can do...that's what makes these kinds of conversations so difficult without actually seeing each other dance.

[Chris Stratton]

Okay, so then my next question is, what is his philosophy on starting the dance? I've danced with people who like to start moving as quickly as possible, and others who don't mind burning a couple of bars of music while getting into position doing their shaping, and that big side step, etc.

Seems to me that when practically possible, there's a "proper" point in the music for any given starting group (usually the start of a phrase, with a few exceptions). That doesn't necessarily mean that you should rush the preparations in order to hit it, and you may simply not be able to if you have to wait for another couple to clear out first, but there does seem to be an ideal, and practicing to be ready to take it when possible would be a good idea.

[Laura]

Well of course Chris, and if one spends too much time messing around getting into position then one might miss the very first "proper point" in the music. I'm sure we've all seen advanced beginners and intermediates who have figured out that there's a good time to start within the phrase, and who have enough musical awareness to realize they've missed it, and so wait around for a while before starting. That's what we want to avoid -- get going as soon as possible, no messing around, no waiting, no killing time to make the Viennese Waltz shorter, etc.

[Chris Stratton]

I remember taking beginners to a comp, and there was this one couple we put out there - they'd been good in practice. But the poor guy just stood there. and stood there. And stood there, with everyone else halfway down the floor. And we were all getting worried... and then finally they started, danced just like in practice, and took second or third place

[Laura]

There's a lot more latitude for that with beginners, I'd think. If one is competing at a high level and burns a lot of the music just standing around waiting to start, it doesn't have quite the same impact as getting going right away.

[samina]

Okay, so then my next question is, what is his philosophy on starting the dance?

honestly, laura, i couldn't say... will take more time actually dancing with him to know. i don't get the opportunity to dance with him socially -- i have him only for my lessons, and this is our first comp, so we shall see.

in lessons, tho, when the music comes up, i do not notice him biding his time. he is a very dynamic action-oriented man, more the sort who can't wait to get out there & tear it up. LOL

i could truly say that this comp is a premature endeavor -- maybe no one ever feels "ready", but i am very green. still, i care enormously about the details... perhaps at my practice with him this week i can get a few things clarified.
:)

[Chris Stratton]

i could truly say that this comp is a premature endeavor -- maybe no one ever feels "ready", but i am very green. still, i care enormously about the details... perhaps at my practice with him this week i can get a few things clarified.
:)

No, you have to do one before you'll know what to worry about about in the future.

[Laura]

i could truly say that this comp is a premature endeavor -- maybe no one ever feels "ready", but i am very green.
Oh just go do it. Remember you'll be competing against some other greenhorns, too, so it's all relative.

[samina]

Oh just go do it. Remember you'll be competing against some other greenhorns, too, so it's all relative.

oh definitely... hadn't occurred to me to pull out. :)

[madmaximus]

I would strongly dispute that.

Eh, Fiddlesticks.

Dispute it all you want.

Read my post again and unbias your mind a little bit more.
There might actually be something there.


m

[Chris Stratton]

Eh, Fiddlesticks.

Dispute it all you want.

Read my post again and unbias your mind a little bit more.
There might actually be something there.

There's a lot there of general value.

What I took issue with where the specifics that I quoted and objected to.

You just can't go moving your hands around to adjust for body proporitions. If you want the hold to really work, you are going to have to put your hands in the proper places on your partner's body and then adjust something else to accomodate proportions. That's probably a little more true in the other dances than in tango though.

[DrDoug]

If one is competing at a high level and burns a lot of the music just standing around waiting to start, it doesn't have quite the same impact as getting going right away.

In one of my lessons with Max Winkelhuis, he was teaching his preferred technique for starting, and he recounted an episode at a major comp (maybe Blackpool?) in which Massimo spent twenty seconds in the tango setting up and taking hold. But he was still dancing throughout, he wasn't "just standing around".

[fascination]

now this is the stuff that makes me really enjoy DF

[samina]

what part of it, fascination?

[fascination]

when people get to really trying to help someone who is fairly new puzzle something out...and also begin debating the finer points...sort of what the whole thing is about IMO...growing and learning together...helping each other out...yada yada...debating technicalities

[samina]

yes, i love that dynamic discussion.

am disappointed that there's a lack of common nomenclature, tho... seems there's vast room for improvement in that area.

who's in charge of that, anyway?
LOL

[fascination]

ya know...I think it is impossible for people to completely be able to tell one person how to make an adjustment in another person's body that with have the desired effect...we know what we do to get there...we know how we might tweak it to fix it...but perspective is hard to universalize....that is why it is in the practice that things are learned IMO

[fascination]

and speaking of practice...time for me to do just that...

[reb]

now this is the stuff that makes me really enjoy DF
As I was reading these 10 pages I was thinking the same thing.

Our experience includes evolving emphases, which is mostly due to our learning phases, and due in part to exposure to various coaches.

We were experiencing a period of time where DW was being instructed to ensure greater contact - addressing the challenge du jour.

Now that has been accomplished, and more recently she's being encouraged to ensure that this contact does not become transformed into a weighty feel.

[samina]

it strikes me that ballroom dancing is actually rather provincial in how it's taught... we're limited by our exposure to our instructors(s) and the lineage of word-of-mouth instruction that they themselves have received, because the information hasn't been written down much.

[Chris Stratton]

it strikes me that ballroom dancing is actually rather provincial in how it's taught... we're limited by our exposure to our instructors(s) and the lineage of word-of-mouth instruction that they themselves have received, because the information hasn't been written down much.

Compared to other fields of study that is quite true, and unfortunate. The field almost still seems to be in its infancy. Part of it is that we don't have a good format for exchanging information. But also we are not making full use of what we do have - for example, we have very few cases of expert third party commentary on a video, wheras that would be quite the norm for the study of music.

I think there's room to do quite a bit of that with existing tools, but I'd also like to see videos with lines and arrows and circles and X's and notes and comments drawn all over them, that you could explore and enable or hide while viewing on a computer.

However, in terms of access to information as it's currently available, there's been quite a collection of top teachers who have passed through NY city in the past year; even more if you look at the past two years.

[fascination]

I sort of like that though, samina...SD has written some very interesting thoughts on this in his dissertation...perhpas he will share

[fascination]

meh...what I like about ballroom is that you can stand around in a tiny little room with a syllabus and think abou the mechanics for yourself...my understanding is that that is how it has always evolved...I LOVE that

[samina]

sounds to me like there's a lot of opportunity for the right instructors with very good organizational & presentation skills...

frustrating for me, though, because i'm the type that likes to find where all that info is recorded & then just suck it up so i can start figuring out how to apply it. it's not really out there like that... for the most part, has to come through the narrow channel of a pro during lessons.

thank goodness for intuition... there's a lot of learning that can provide, i suppose. am digging deep into the baricchi vids, but they are mostly about mechanics, not figures, holds, the logic of shaping in different ways at different times...

makes sense that the info isn't recorded much, tho... that's the livelihood of the pros when they retire from competition. :)

[samina]

meh...what I like about ballroom is that you can stand around in a tiny little room with a syllabus and think abou the mechanics for yourself...my understanding is that that is how it has always evolved...I LOVE that

yes, i definitely appreciate that aspect of it.

[samina]

still, i wonder... who coined the phrase "developed hold", and when? who is that person... what did he (likely a he) consider it a development from, and what did he call its predecessor?

why is that information so obscure, you know? it's nowhere on the net that i've been able to locate...

[fascination]

yea, I've never even heard of the term

[samina]

this warrants a call to my former dancer partner who told me about the hold last fall. he is a walking encyclopedia. literally.

[skwiggy]

yea, I've never even heard of the term

ditto

[samina]

okay, i have information now & know the official source. will post more detail in a bit...

[samina]

warning: ridiciulously long post. proceed with care. :D

so, have done some information mining and have some very precise information to share. let me just qualify that i'm just impartially passing on some information, i have no agenda, i'm not making any value statements, and i'm not in the least interested in arguing the merits of one hold or technique over another. it's just about information as far as i'm concerned.

i'm glad i took the time to contact my friend, who has been in the ballroom community for about 22 years. he is a brilliant scholar in other areas of knowledge and applied the same attention to detail to studying ballroom (primarily international). he is the sort that if you ask a single question he'll easily spend an hour excavating very precise information, names, books, and all sorts of ballroom trivia beyond what most people have the interest or attention span to absorb. but he is very precise, and so far i haven't met anyone more knowledgeable.

so, it turns out that what i've been describing here are two types of cutting-edge technique that have not yet filtered into the mainstream ballroom community: 1) the developed hold, which my friend called "state-of-the-art" and still at the oral stage of being passed down; it is something he was exposed to only in the last couple years, and 2) "dancing leftwards", which he first heard about 10 years ago, and which can be done with either the developed hold or with a more traditional hold.

the developed hold can be read about in Geoffrey Hearn's "Technique of Advanced Standard Ballroom Figures" (the purple book, which my friend had with him & made reference to all the time when we'd practice together -- like all his ballroom technique books, they were covered in decades' worth of minutely detailed notes & highlights).

apparently Hearn -- one of the coaches & choreographers of the hiltons -- made an attempt to record some of the advanced figures & techniques that he felt had augmented the standard technique, and it is in this book where he discusses what the developed hold is & why it is desireable, as well as why it is more difficult than the already-beautiful traditional hold.

the hold creates more volume. the hold is wider (the elbows & hands are wider), it is higher (instead of holding under the woman's shoulderblade, the man holds her more under her triceps), and the woman is more over to the man's right, almost as if in promenade position. what happens is that the woman has more freedom of expression, as does the man, enabling more sway and beautiful shaping. however, the woman is required to dance her part more securely & autonomously, and the man's lead becomes more minimal... in order to enable his freedom of expression. but the developed hold allows little room for error -- the woman must know her part perfectly, or she can throw the man off balance very easily. (from my lessons, i can vouch for that...)

the hold is definitely more difficult to stabilize -- hearn apparently stresses that it requires both the man & the woman to be trained in it, which is the reason my friend says he gave up on it, because he found that, despite dancing with thousands of women in the best social dancing circles, only some pros and some of their pro-am students were dancing the hold. when he'd try it with other amateurs and with social dancers, the dance would fall apart because of the control that was required to maintain the connection. so few were being exposed to the hold, it just wasn't worth continuing with it.

he stated that the hold is part of a technique explosion that has occurred in the ballroom world, most of which has not occurred in the U.S., and that those who are being exposed to it here are generally getting it from the world-class pros who have come here & who have learned it directly from the people who have been inventing or developing it. the NY/NJ area has the highest concentration of elite pros in the world (by his estimation) and it is here where this hold is expanding now, although he estimates that within another 10 years it will begin filtering to the general ballroom knowledge-base. by comparison, he believes that most of the nationally ranked amateurs use the traditional hold -- he thinks that probably the only amateurs currently being systematically exposed to the hold are probably the russian kids coming up through their very tightly knit community.

apparently the hold is very visible in the baricchis (my friend did not know i am studying their technique) and with other european couples. in response to my puzzlement that the hold is not well-known in the ballroom community, he said i've simply stumbled upon a very small tutorial vein of dancers that are schooled in & are passing on the technique.

so... that's the developed hold.

"dancing leftwards" has been around a bit longer, but still hasn't filtered into the general ballroom knowledge because it is still passing through a relatively small group of pros down through their students... and it takes a long time before it emerges from that phase.

it has evolved from the common "off-set" position of the woman dancing without crossing the man's tieline; it was discovered that the more the woman dances to her left, the more the man's view is unobstructed, and the more they can use counter-balance to create a big topline together, dancing in multiple-dimensional parallelograms.

there are, apparently, three of these: the first with the regular off-set position, another through hip-to-hip, and the other with the corkscrewing rotation of each torso toward the left, away from the dance partner. i was dancing leftwards with my friend when we practiced together, but he used the traditional hold.

so... that's all i've got. but i got what i wanted... an explanation. :)

[Egoist]

I am partial to the Agrippa connection but when the terrain get's rocky I switch to Bonifetti's connection.

[NielsenE]

but are you also left handed?

[SDsalsaguy]

Perhaps you know something he does not know?

[Laura]

Very interesting, Samina. What your friend described as the "developed hold" sounds a lot like what I have been taught and am striving toward, which makes sense considering who has taught me and who teaches those who have taught me. No one has ever given the technique a name in my hearing, though.

Funny thing is, though, that I partially thought that TS and I were setting up that way because of our nearly ridiculous height difference. I never thought that it was some great new wave in technical development. Regardless, it seems to work well in our case.

[tangotime]

Peter Eggleton , has been teaching right side( lady left side )concept , way before g.h .took pen to paper . . It is one of his " trade mark " concepts , among others he has pioneered . And Peter, having coached many of the past and recent champs, is probably the one who has passed this down over the yrs, it is something that I always stress when coaching .

[Joe]

I am partial to the Agrippa connection but when the terrain get's rocky I switch to Bonifetti's connection.
Actually I find that Capo Ferra is the preferred contact method for rocky terrain.

[Joe]

Also, I don't know about holding the woman under the triceps. That is where one of the contact points should be--but not with my hand, maybe my wrist or forearm.

I also agree with Maximus--your body proportions and your partner's do have a lot to do with where everything goes. We're all a bunch of structural members connected by joints, and the lengths of everyones structural members are not the same from person to person. There is absolutely no way for two people with different measurements to fit another single person the same way.

[samina]

Peter Eggleton , has been teaching right side( lady left side )concept , way before g.h .took pen to paper . . It is one of his " trade mark " concepts , among others he has pioneered . And Peter, having coached many of the past and recent champs, is probably the one who has passed this down over the yrs, it is something that I always stress when coaching .

you didn't recognize my description of dancing leftwards when i was asking for information about it?

or perhaps you just didn't see the post at the time...

[samina]

Very interesting, Samina. What your friend described as the "developed hold" sounds a lot like what I have been taught and am striving toward, which makes sense considering who has taught me and who teaches those who have taught me. No one has ever given the technique a name in my hearing, though.

Funny thing is, though, that I partially thought that TS and I were setting up that way because of our nearly ridiculous height difference. I never thought that it was some great new wave in technical development. Regardless, it seems to work well in our case.

kewl. in your avatar, tho, it looks like he's got you in the traditional hold.

[Chris Stratton]

I also agree with Maximus--your body proportions and your partner's do have a lot to do with where everything goes. We're all a bunch of structural members connected by joints, and the lengths of everyones structural members are not the same from person to person. There is absolutely no way for two people with different measurements to fit another single person the same way.

Yes, some things will have to change - but some things make more sense to move than others.

If you move the hands, then you can't get the specific benefit that was achieved by having the hand nestled in the traditional place. So you should probably adjust something else to accomodate proportions.

[tangotime]

I guess I got lost in the body of the thread ( was long ) . I was, as you can see, in agreement, and just re confirming the statement by G.H. , but from a different source-- am sometimes hesitant to analyse the written word , too quickly , when I,m not quite sure of its intended meaning .

When dealing with abstract concepts , the" picture " that is painted , can sometimes convey similar, as well as like images . ( the corkscrew / spiral , for e.g. ) :)

[samina]

I guess I got lost in the body of the thread ( was long ) .

so true... :)

was worth the effort of pressing forward, tho... i feel like a long-time itch finally got scratched. <lol>

[tangotime]

I really enjoyed reading it . Have know G.h. for many, many,yrs-- used him for exams in the states .

[samina]

glad to hear it, TT... took not a little bit of time to sort it out. ;)

[delamusica]

Thanks for posting, samina - i don't know enough about standard to really comment, but I've enjoyed reading this thread. Stuff to think about in the event that I ever get to go dancing again* . . .


(*I'm just being dramatic and whiny since I only go 1-2 times a month anymore. It is soooooo not enough. But circumstances require it be so.)

[samina]

Thanks for posting, samina - i don't know enough about standard to really comment, but I've enjoyed reading this thread. Stuff to think about in the event that I ever get to go dancing again* . . .


(*I'm just being dramatic and whiny since I only go 1-2 times a month anymore. It is soooooo not enough. But circumstances require it be so.)

DM, i'm sure you'll be able to pick up your dancing again in the future. just sounds like life is redirecting you for a little whilel. :) you must be so busy with your music right now...

:D

[Laura]

kewl. in your avatar, tho, it looks like he's got you in the traditional hold.
Different partner, different time (two years ago), different point in my dance development, also partner learned how to dance about 20 years ago so has different habits, etc etc.

[Another Elizabeth]

the hold creates more volume. the hold is wider (the elbows & hands are wider), it is higher (instead of holding under the woman's shoulderblade, the man holds her more under her triceps), and the woman is more over to the man's right, almost as if in promenade position. what happens is that the woman has more freedom of expression, as does the man, enabling more sway and beautiful shaping. however, the woman is required to dance her part more securely & autonomously, and the man's lead becomes more minimal... in order to enable his freedom of expression. but the developed hold allows little room for error -- the woman must know her part perfectly, or she can throw the man off balance very easily. (from my lessons, i can vouch for that...)

It can't be all that cutting edge, as all of this is stuff I've been hearing for more than ten years. When I was a beginner almost twenty years ago, we were already hearing that holding the lady under the shoulder blade was bad.

Maybe I just had the right teachers.

[samina]

It can't be all that cutting edge, as all of this is stuff I've been hearing for more than ten years. When I was a beginner almost twenty years ago, we were already hearing that holding the lady under the shoulder blade was bad.

Maybe I just had the right teachers.

possibly... but nobody here knew anything about it, and i have the impression there are some pretty knowledgeable people here.

i wouldn't say that teachers who don't have cutting-edge information are the "wrong" teachers, tho... i know enuf about technique to know that it continually evolves & changes.

perhaps you've had training that might be considered rarified as compared with the general ballroom knowledge base?

[latingal]

Hey Samina, just wanted to thank you for putting your research on the derivations of the hold up for people to read and comment on. It's interesting stuff to see condensed in one place.

I'm sure some of our other members HAVE heard of or experienced some of these techniques, but may not feel qualified to comment or may not wish to....

But again, thank you for doing the research and opening up an interesting thread!

[samina]

Different partner, different time (two years ago), different point in my dance development, also partner learned how to dance about 20 years ago so has different habits, etc etc.

gotcha... i thought it was a recent photo from a comp a couple months ago.

:)

[samina]

Hey Samina, just wanted to thank you for putting your research on the derivations of the hold up for people to read and comment on. It's interesting stuff to see condensed in one place.

I'm sure some of our other members HAVE heard of or experienced some of these techniques, but may not feel qualified to comment or may not wish to....

But again, thank you for doing the research and opening up an interesting thread!

sure LG... glad you appreciate it. :)

[Laura]

but nobody here knew anything about it, and i have the impression there are some pretty knowledgeable people here.
Nobody here knew anything about it based on the name you were using -- but some of us knew about it based on the technique and goals. Once you posted the description by your friend, it became a lot clearer what you were talking about since none of us had heard the term "developed hold" before.

[samina]

Nobody here new anything about it based on the name you were using -- but some of knew about it based on the technique and goals. Once you posted the description by your friend, it became a lot clearer what you were talking about since none of us had heard the term "developed hold" before.

yes, that is true. i'm sure there are more here besides yourself & elizabeth for whom this would ring a bell, too.

[fascination]

yes...and it is still good to iron it out so so speak

[samina]

...from dancers who are well-versed in using them.
original post edited:

let me amend this statement... if you're a newb struggling bronze dancer who's trying to figure out how to use these techniques, whether the developed hold or the dancing leftwards technique, that's "well-versed" enuf for me... i just want to compare notes & hear what you're learning from your instructor & what you're figuring out on your own.

if you're more well-versed than that... you're practically an expert, in my book. LOL

[fascination]

well...I dunno about well versed so I'm gonna keep my perspective to myself...but I think I fall into that catagory...meh...

[samina]

i gathered from the busom discussion ... <lol>... that we were shaping our bodies differently, tho... you know, the whole "corkscrew vs. spiral" direction thing

[dancesportgirl21]

Peter Eggleton , has been teaching right side( lady left side )concept , way before g.h .took pen to paper . . It is one of his " trade mark " concepts , among others he has pioneered . And Peter, having coached many of the past and recent champs, is probably the one who has passed this down over the yrs, it is something that I always stress when coaching .

No wonder that all sounded so familiar. Peter Eggleton was my teacher's coach. It's interesting how many schools of thought there are on hold alone, and I'm glad DF is here for everyone to discuss it. :D

[samina]

No wonder that all sounded so familiar. Peter Eggleton was my teacher's coach. It's interesting how many schools of thought there are on hold alone, and I'm glad DF is here for everyone to discuss it. :D

very cool, DSG! :)

i know very, very little about the differences between all these schools of thought... am looking forward to hearing more. :)

[samina]

whoops... i somehow i edited my post above rather than just quoting it here with a change i wanted to make...

IAE, please to read my revision above...
:)

[tangotime]

Have to thank Sam. for resurecting an old post ( and this one ) for something she has brought to mind.

When I read all of the various people making statements on given topics, one sometimes wonders about source ( well , I do ) . it got me to thinking who, over the past fifty yrs, has made the most impact on the Intern. standard style . Credit due , of course, to the many coaches, who in some smaller way , have put in their " 2 cents ".

There are 4 people, who who have probably impacted every prof. dancer in todays current "crop " , and those of the past 35yrs. Namely-- Scrivener, Irvines, Eggleton and Binnick . Include their partners in that illustrious group.

[samina]

i don't know who irvines & binnick are, TT, and just know a little bit about scrivener & eggleton.

thanks for the name-dropping... will certainly launch some information-gathering on my part. :)

[tangotime]

Sorry Sam , didnt mean to sound too pedantic. Binnick , with Sally Brock, partner and wife, was the #1 coach in standard for many yrs. Only took top couples in pro and amat. He was unique in that he won the " British"
with 2 different partners !!! --in 53, with Joyce Hayward and 4 times with sally (54,55,57 and 58 )

Scrivener ( one of my coaches ) won in 50, 51 and 52, with his wife Nellie Duggan (

Irvines , Bill and Bobbie won in 60, 62,63 64,and 66 . He also won worlds Latin in 61 66, and 68 and the British in 66-- a feat no one else has repeated. Add to this , they won worlds in 62, 63,64,65 ,67 and 68, Eggleton winning British in 65, ,67,68, , and World in 66,69,and 70

In all fairness , the latin of yesteryear , bears no comparison to todays " Gymnastic " event .

Their impact on the competitive world, is beyond measure .

[spatten]

A very good thread - interesting enough to bring me out of hiding :)

I think there is a lot of good info and support in this thread without much wild theorizing. I'm really impressed by the DF'ers (or X-dscapers).

But I think the thread also showcases the limitations of this medium. Good advice from Skwiggy and others on the hold, but I'm left with a lingering feeling that Samina never really found her answer.

My suggestion whenever issues and uncertainties come up in the path of ballroom learning is to go to the source, or as near as you can. Find a coach who's dancing/understanding and perhaps more importantly who's students you admire. Maybe you can work with your Pro and this coach, if they are not the same person. Put *most* of your trust in them, and you will get close. A great coach will find something that works for you and your partner.

Scott

[Ithink]

I thought there really are only two schools: Eggleton and Irvine that are relevant today... What did Binnick and Scrivener contribute that's unique?

BTW, this is an awesome thread, all of which I read just today after coming back from vacation. I must admit that one coach once told me to turn my left side away from my partner (corkscrew I guess we're calling it). My current coach nipped that in the bud fairly quickly, advocating the concept that both sides should be directed at your partner to produce the most efficient movement and the most optimal shape. But she also has said that I don't try to wrap around my partner's right side in order to keep a firm connection. Of course my coach's teachers are Bobbie Irvine, Anne Lewis and John Wood; never has she mentioned Eggleton...

I do have a question for those who "corkscrew" - don't you find that taking your left side away does a number on your right shoulder? A misaligned right shoulder on a lady is a huge pet peeve of mine and incidentally I've noticed it on a number of top pro ladies (not to mention countless top ams), including Lorraine Barricci, who was mentioned here as adhering to this "left side away from partner" school...

[samina]

A very good thread - interesting enough to bring me out of hiding :)

hi, spatten -- glad you peeked into things. :)

left with a lingering feeling that Samina never really found her answer.

happily, i did find what i was looking for... an understanding of the origin & definition of the develped hold, as well as what my leftward rotation during dancing is called, and why it's being done.

and i feel utterly surrounded by great teachers & coaches who are on the same page, and who so inspire me with their own dancing -- my cup just runneth over, believe me. within the guidance i'm receiving in my lessons & coaching, there is no discrepancy in technique, which is a blessing. how confusing & conflicted that would be, otherwise.

thank you for you encouragement, scott! :) :D

[samina]

I do have a question for those who "corkscrew" - don't you find that taking your left side away does a number on your right shoulder? A misaligned right shoulder on a lady is a huge pet peeve of mine and incidentally I've noticed it on a number of top pro ladies (not to mention countless top ams), including Lorraine Barricci, who was mentioned here as adhering to this "left side away from partner" school...

yes, this can happen very easily. there is a particular setup my instructor taught me to make sure the shoulders & hips are aligned properly. if you are curious to know more about that, i can figure out how to convey it.

there's also a way he has shown me to raise my arms and feel the weight of them free, as if they are being held by someone or as if i'm hanging from them, and this makes sure the shoulders are dropped in their sockets before initiating the corkscrew away from him. in fact, he will lift my right arm and tell me to flop back in the corkscrew like a rag doll. "that is how it should feel... like you are hanging"

it does require the back to be very stretched to accommodate all the volume & not pop the right shoulder up -- now i understand why this is so. and i found that when i stopped my yoga practice, my upper back & shoulders tightened very quickly & i could not stop my right shoulder from popping.

so yes, you are spot-on with your observation, Ithink. :)

glad you're enjoying the thread. this type of exchange of information is right up my alley, too.
:d

[tangotime]

Scrivener impacted the comp. scene with his interpretation of tango, that changed the style to what you see today. He also was far more academic in his teaching and writings ( which few , if any , have come close )he was the first to lecture in Japan. He pionered the then" english style " abroad and was in constant demand for lectures . Little known fact-- he was never invited to judge the British .
Have had the priviledge and pleasure of knowing all 3 in various capacities .

There others, even before them,-- Henry Jacques, Charles Theibault ,Josephine Bradley ( to name but a few ) that were instrumental in the teachings to the afore mentioned. So, you can see that not one single person is totally the arbitor of style and substance. it took many cooks to make this "broth " , over a long period of time .

By the way, your teacher did take with Bobbie, past tense---- she died over a yr ago. ( p.s. Eggleton was John Woods coach )

[Ithink]

By the way, your teacher did take with Bobbie, past tense---- she died over a yr ago. ( p.s. Eggleton was John Woods coach )

I know that. I was just saying that Bobbie is influential for my coach, currently. I didn't mean to imply that all those are still the people she takes from now...

So John Wood took from Eggleton. Did, by extension, Anne Lewis take from him too? Because she more than he, I think, was my coach's teacher. I would assume so since they were partners...

[Chris Stratton]

don't you find that taking your left side away does a number on your right shoulder?

No.

Think about it this (oversimplified) way:

Draw two inflexible rectangular bodies, parallel, and offset by half of their width.

The left side is further "away" from the partner than the right side.

But the right "shoulder" to upper "arm" is perfectly straight.

Now make a real hold by rounding things out, and perhaps having the body center rotated a bit to face the partner while the topline keeps the layout described in the simple model.

[skwiggy]

In my experience, taking the left side away and/or down seems to be one major cause of right shoulder problems for both men and ladies. Myself included.

I suppose though, knowing nothing myself about the "developed" hold, that it could be something about taking the left side away within the context of the "other" hold that is causing it, not the action itself independent of context. Maybe.

[samina]

I suppose though, knowing nothing myself about the "developed" hold, that it could be something about taking the left side away within the context of the "other" hold that is causing it, not the action itself independent of context. Maybe.

i think you're probably right, swig.

chris's thoughtful mathematical models aside, IME the shoulder definitely does tend to lift or "pop" because of the extreme stretch & rotation.

but IMO that's what makes it a technique... requires technical application to execute it well.

[Ithink]

Well, from what I saw, if they are in fact adherants of this "technique", not even Lorraine Barricci was able to do it well...

[samina]

well, then i don't feel so bad when my shoulder lifts. and i'll feel some accomplishment when i'm able to keep everything level as it should be.

:)

[Chris Stratton]

First under no circumstances should the elbow be going behind the back - if anything it should stay slightly in front.

But there's definitely something about learning to be comfortable with the elbow slightly above the shoulder and the shoulder "down", vs, hunching the shoudler to try to keep it higher than the elbow.

Not just ladies either... (though they have a more stretched position) see how many guys manage to do the "chicken wing" in fallaway...

[samina]

First under no circumstances should the elbow be going behind the back - if anything it should stay slightly in front.

in the leftward shape, the left elbow stays in line with the frame -- the whole torso turns to the left. IME the elbows don't tend to go behind the back because that short stretch of muscle that connects the shoulder to the torso is stretched very broad, with the shoulder blades flat... there is just a feeling of being a curved hanger.

[Chris Stratton]

in the leftward shape, the left elbow stays in line with the frame

yes

the whole torso turns to the left.

No.

The lower/middle torso is rotated more towards the partner, compared to the shoulders.

[samina]

No.

The lower/middle torso is rotated more towards the partner, compared to the shoulders.

i do not believe we are discussing the same technique.

just to reiterate, i'm not in the least interested in debating whether any of these techniques is "better" or "right" versus another, unless it is simply to impartially highlight certain technical benefits, such as greater volume.

but fwiw, IME, if a lady is rotating leftwards using that technique, there is one clean rotation, not "this rotates left, that rotates right". it is just a simple geometric result that the lower/middle torso will be closer to the partner than the leftmost side of her body, but it doesn't separately rotate towards him.

[samina]

the hips are the connecting point, so everything pretty much gently spirals left from there

[Ithink]

OK, so while your right side rotates away from your partner what, consequently happens to your right side if, as you say you rotate your entire body as a whole? Is your right shoulder closer in proximity to your partner or is it as the same distance (on a parallel) as your left and if it is, how do you achieve that whilst rotating only one side away? If it is closer than the left shoulder and your shoulder line is no longer parallel to your partner's shoulder line, how exactly do you avoid the raised right shoulder effect while still connecting your center to your partner's center? Or do you not connect centers? If not, how does your partner lead you?

Edit: I see now that you don't connect at the center but at hips. Does your partner lead you through his hips too?

[samina]

OK, so while your right side rotates away from your partner what, consequently happens to your right side if, as you say you rotate your entire body as a whole? Is your right shoulder closer in proximity to your partner or is it as the same distance (on a parallel) as your left and if it is, how do you achieve that whilst rotating only one side away? If it is closer than the left shoulder and your shoulder line is no longer parallel to your partner's shoulder line, how exactly do you avoid the raised right shoulder effect while still connecting your center to your partner's center? Or do you not connect centers? If not, how does your partner lead you?

well, i'm no expert... struggling newb bronze dancer is the deal, so take what i say with a very large dose of salt (himalayan, of course :cool: )...

we start off in parallel, and then think of it this way... imagine pushing away from him with your right hand in the hold while streeeetttching in a gentle rotation to your left. it's not that you are actually pushing, but if you stand up & do this yourself, you will experience a beautiful broadening of your shape. the edge of your torsos are still parallel, and you're connected at the hip.

meanwhile, he is doing his own stretch to counterbalance, and it creates a topline that has more volume than if this stretch is not occurring.

i am very dependent on his hips and his hands for the lead, so he periodically shows me what he quietly does with his hips to communicate to me; for example, if my feet are closed and he wants me to step back into a reverse turn, his left hip will lift ever-so-slightly.

i'm sure it must be needless to say that i have a long way to go to develop the sensitivity to follow his subtle hip movements consistently :)

as far as leading my corkscrewing to the left... he leads it by stretching to his own left. i can feel his energy wanting to broaden the shape, and so i respond.

[samina]

if i rotate and allow my frame to warp, then my right shoulder will pop and he'll experience it as very disruptive because it's right in front of his face. that gives you a point of reference as to where my right side is.

the upper back is stretched so broadly, again.. like a hanger. but i don't know how this is different from other techniques. i don't know how what i'm saying differs from what other dancers experience who *aren't* rotating leftwards.

[samina]

Edit: I see now that you don't connect at the center but at hips. Does your partner lead you through his hips too?

yes, exactly.

now, i have no point of reference for other holds with him & *not* dancing leftwards, so how he leads me is just "normal" for me, right? but i do have a comparison of being led on a regular basis by a man who used the more traditional hold (with torso contact) while i was dancing leftwards, and it was COMPLETELY different.

i could follow him through moves i'd never executed before. with my instructor, the lead is so much more subtle. i really need to know my part & to become much more sensitive to his hip movements before i will be able to follow with the same sort of fluidity. IME, it is without question a much harder technique to learn.

perhaps it is the combination of the developed hold AND the dancing leftwards that makes it so difficult, because between the two we have much less torso contact than sounds like is common...

[Chris Stratton]

Any net, constant leftwards (counterclockwise) rotation will cause severe trouble. It's commonly called (and strongly feels) like "turning off your partner"

As a result, the only way you can have a constant counterclockwise rotation and get away with it is if it's relative to something else that is rotated clockwise.

For example, if you rotate your low center clockwise (right, towards your partner), then relative to this you can rotate your shoulders slightly left (counterclockwise) to fill out the hold.

But as was pointed out, if you just create a net leftwards/counterclockwise rotation with everything, you'll be trying to wipe his nose with your shoulder.

(and bear in mind that stretching away to the left is not the same thing as rotating left - if anything stretching left goes with rotating to the right, in that both feel "past" your partner)

[samina]

As a result, the only way you can have a constant counterclockwise rotation and get away with it is if it's relative to something else that is rotated clockwise.

yes... my partner is rotating in counter-balance. this is not a rotation initiated by or done by myself & therefore requiring me to counter it... it is part of the synergy of the unit, of the couple's joint energy.

if you just create a net leftwards/counterclockwise rotation with everything, you'll be trying to wipe his nose with your shoulder.
trust me... there is no nose-wipage occurring.:cool:

[fascination]

I tried this chris...she's adamant, LOL

[samina]

what can i say... it is what it is.

[Chris Stratton]

Well, either you are simply rotating your entire coordinate system, or nose wipage will occur...

[fascination]

what can i say... it is what it is.just playin' with ya...good luck BTW

[samina]

chris, it sounds like you are taking this into an extreme or exaggerated direction -- the object isn't to force myself into a pretzel... it's dance. it is shape. it is used intelligently, at the lead's discretion. it is gentle. when it is done properly, the shoulders remain level.

i don't think there's anything more i can say to better describe what's going on in this kind of shaping. maybe try it out yourself. this isn't a kind of movement from outerspace defying the laws of physics... it works.

[samina]

...good luck BTW

thanks... it's the ramp-up now. :) haven't had much of an appetite...

[Chris Stratton]

So what are you rotating left relative too?

If you are rotating everything in relation to the feet, to achieve your "home" position, you are going to have real problems. I'm quite familiar with how those problems feel and look, as they will creep up on any unwary dancer in certain sorts of actions (think Vw reverse turns on beginners).

If you are rotating your feet too, then, you are just rotating your coordinate system, which is pointless.

On the other hand, if you are rotating your topline very slightly left relative to your center, you just might be achieving a full but partner-oriented hold... which is to say a slight modification of the more basic and constant advice to stretch left but rotate (your center) right.

[tangotime]

Yes, he coached them both ( pro,s in the u.k. do not normally take one on one ) If I remember correctly, right after their lesson , Hilliers took.

[fascination]

thanks... it's the ramp-up now. :) haven't had much of an appetite...
lol, don't worry...it'll be back

[fascination]

thanks... it's the ramp-up now. :) haven't had much of an appetite...
might be a good time for you to peruse the pre-comp and post comp disorder, threads

[samina]

So what are you rotating left relative too?

... relative to my partner, it seems. it's a slight corkscrew away from our shared center.

[samina]

might be a good time for you to peruse the pre-comp and post comp disorder, threads

may do that...

mostly i'm just moving forward, practicing short bits a few times a day. if i feel prepared as best i can, then perhaps i'll achieve my goal for the comp: pleasure & relaxed control while dancing. that's all i want... (and not trip on dress <g>)... i figure the rest will take care of itself.

am hoping recent postural a-has will help sort out my troubles w/ the spin turn & whisk...

[Chris Stratton]

... relative to my partner, it seems. it's a slight corkscrew away from our shared center.

If every part of both bodies participates in this "rotation" then it is simply equivelent to orienting the entire couple in a new direction in the room, plus increasing their leftwards offset. If that's what you are doing, then it's just a method of taking hold, not a characteristic of the hold (the characteristic would be "lots of offset")

[samina]

what can i say... am leaving my feet behind & it's not messing up my hold...

[Chris Stratton]

Then your starting with your feet in the wrong place relative to your body, so that they will be in the right place after the rotation ;-)

[samina]

If every part of both bodies participates in this "rotation" then it is simply equivelent to orienting the entire couple in a new direction in the room, plus increasing their leftwards offset. If that's what you are doing, then it's just a method of taking hold, not a characteristic of the hold (the characteristic would be "lots of offset")

i go left, he goes left... no reorientation occurring.

[samina]

Then your starting with your feet in the wrong place relative to your body, so that they will be in the right place after the rotation ;-)

nope, feet well-placed.

i don't have a problem with what i'm doing... my pro doesn't have a problem with it... i only need to remember to alllow it more often

seems something about what i'm saying is computing as a problem for you, but not sure what it is...

[spatten]

Something *seems* a bit amiss. Although, it is certainly plausible that it is just a misunderstanding or communication breakdown.

My little thought expeiment doesn't like the idea of rotating left, and here's why.

I imagine the two upper bodies of dancers as elispes, both in contact with one edge near the other's center. If both elipses are rotated to each's relative right, then more surface area is in contact - which seems like the nice real world scenario of eachother's curved parts making a long line of contact.

If the bodies are rotated left repsectively however, less contact is made (the natural conclusion being both bodies in contact just at the edge). I guess the overall dimensions of the couple are larger, if that is what you are trying to achieve.

Although you talk about being connected at the hips - which is different than how I approach a nice standard connection, (long line of contact). So maybe the difference comes from this discrepancy.

Lastly, if it works for you, and your coaches approve - then go for it.

Scott

[samina]

If the bodies are rotated left repsectively however, less contact is made ...

Although you talk about being connected at the hips - which is different than how I approach a nice standard connection, (long line of contact). So maybe the difference comes from this discrepancy.

that's how it's seems to me, too, scott. you are validating what i've been suspecting as compared with the traditional hold & rotation. seems to me that less contact = harder to communicate.

but if one can develop the required connection through other means & through sensitivity... it looks so beautiful to my eyes.

just remembered that there's a whole disc dedicated to communication on the baricchi video set... if they dance using this hold & rotational technique, it would make sense that i've been so drawn to them to learn how they communicate so subtley.

[Chris Stratton]

nope, feet well-placed.

They can't be right before and also after the rotation. Either they are wrong before and right after, or right before and wrong after... (or they change orientation when your rotate)

i go left, he goes left... no reorientation occurring.

If you have total rotation of everything, then there must be reorientation.

On the other hand, if you only have stretch to the left (displacment not rotation) then there wouldn't be a reorientation.

[samina]

again... what can i say. however it seems to you theoretically, it works fine in practice.

if i find i'm having trouble with it -- other than what i've mentioned -- i'll be sure to post on that.

[Chris Stratton]

again... what can i say. however it seems to you theoretically, it works fine in practice.

That is most likely because your description does not literally match what you are doing

[samina]

That is most likely because your description does not literally match what you are doing

maybe so. alas...

[madmaximus]

Samina,

Sounds very very similar to my former hold.
Is your body--and shoulders (in relation to where your feet are pointing)--offset to the left by about 1/16?
Sort of like "a-not-quite-halfway-there-Tango" rotation?

If it is, then I understand what you're describing.
It is quite offset, and the movement is radically different from that you would generate with a "classic" hold.
It will create immense volume in movement, particularly on the natural progressive-rotation step combinations.

It does require hyper-accuracy on both dancer's movements.
And you're quite right, this hold is difficult to dance with someone who's not trained in it.
The intention feels different (so much so that I once got hit in the family jewels by my current partner--so I've stopped using it for now).

The concept would feel counter-intuitive and, well, wrong.

The lead at first feels very "hip-y" but it actually is generated by the greater volume of movement.
The man's right hand will need to rise about 5-7 cm. because the expansion will distort the top line.




m

[samina]

Samina,

Sounds very very similar to my former hold.
Is your body--and shoulders (in relation to where your feet are pointing)--offset to the left by about 1/16?
Sort of like "a-not-quite-halfway-there-Tango" rotation?

If it is, then I understand what you're describing.
It is quite offset, and the movement is radically different from that you would generate with a "classic" hold.
It will create immense volume in movement, particularly on the natural progressive-rotation step combinations.

It does require hyper-accuracy on both dancer's movements.
And you're quite right, this hold is difficult to dance with someone who's not trained in it.
The intention feels different (so much so that I once got hit in the family jewels by my current partner--so I've stopped using it for now).

The concept would feel counter-intuitive and, well, wrong.

The lead at first feels very "hip-y" but it actually is generated by the greater volume of movement.
The man's right hand will need to rise about 5-7 cm. because the expansion will distort the top line.




m

yes.

yes.

yes.

yes.

yes. (my pro's jewels almost took it once this evening <g>)

yes.

yes!

:D


i paid attention in my lessons tonight... there *is* some torso contact, but just along the edge of our right sides.

spent a lot of time working on the frame & rotation, so it is burned in my memory. if not in my muscle memory, anyway. still trying to find the happy place for my right shoulder. towards the end of my lesson, i could duplicate it most of the time. but until then i kept warping my frame during the rotation... not good.

[reb]

Samina - I am very impressed with your effort and a bunch of us are learning as you share your adventures with us - Thank you.

[samina]

thank you, reb... that's very nice to hear. i am experiencing my dance adventures right now as very... well, dynamic is a good word. i'll continue to share them... :)

[Joe]

Technically, rotating ellipses against one another does not increase "contact" "area" because there is no area--it's a point, and any convex 2-dimensional shape can only have "contact" with another at a point.

[spatten]

Technically, rotating ellipses against one another does not increase "contact" "area" because there is no area--it's a point, and any convex 2-dimensional shape can only have "contact" with another at a point.

Fair enough, I agree. Suffice it say that our bodies are not accurately modeled by an ellipse, and most likely have some flat surface area. I am still inclined to say that rotating right can increase contact, not that this is necessarily a goal in of itself, more of a result.

Scott.

[madmaximus]

yes.

i paid attention in my lessons tonight... there *is* some torso contact, but just along the edge of our right sides.


Samina,

I don't think I've danced it as radically as right-edge to right-edge, but the hold I used certainly placed my partner out to the right more than the "classical" style.
[Presuming this is a similar--if not the same--style...]

Certainly the "classical" lines are pushed to a magnitude where the silhouette is still recognizable, but you know something is quite different.
The topline--particularly the right elbow is modified to accommodate the magnitude of expansion.
Generally makes the topline (and the right shoulder in particular) more difficult to stabilize during movement--hence the repositioning of the gent's right hand (and consequently the lady's left hand).
Because of this, you can appreciate why it would make a "classicist" cringe and cry "WRONG!"

"Your lead is too subtle" was the common refrain from ladies I danced with who were not trained in this system.
The (physical) lead almost disappears (as was my case) because it becomes a heavily directional/alignment-oriented lead.

The body contact won't provide nearly the same (or as much accurate) information as a "classical" hold and movement, because of the offset and delay in leg-body synchronization.
In fact, it would sometimes be contradictory information (hence the all too painful family jewels episode--[cringing yet again]).

Because of the "lesser" amount of lead-information, the lady needs to intelligibly interpret the proceeding movement, based more on the precision of the fall-line and top-line orientation--and then measure out the correct step length, and accurately plant the foot.
It certainly demands more from the lady.


It is a complex technique truly well-worth the study, but--I think--only after the "classical" hold is well-understood.




m



ps.

On a turn, does it feel like your partner is dancing under you?



...

[Peaches]

ps.

On a turn, does it feel like your partner is dancing under you?



...

OK. I've been reading this thread and not really understanding much of it. The written descriptions just don't do much for me.

But this totally caught my attention, because it's what my teacher is always saying to me, and because I've felt it so clearly.

On turns, it does always feel like either I'm going under him, or he's going under me. Very strange.

Now I've got to go back and re-read a bit, and maybe see if that figures into things.

Wow...this post contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion. Sorry about that.

[samina]

hey, max... :)

i completely gel with everything you say.

the right shoulder thing... don't wanna even talk about it right now. having trouble coordinating things properly... so much change in my posture... i need some time to sort it all out. right shoulder popping too much because i'm warping things. haven't found the sweet spot for the whole kit-n-caboodle.

gonna have to watch my tapes to see where pro is during turns. i know that there are many moves using these techniques where whoever is going forward definitely goes under the other person -- giampiero & nina show us that all the time in foxtrot lately. but that requires more sway & going deeper than we do in class, and more than i can handle personally with my pro. and maybe all holds produce that effect? i dunno...

as i said, will pay attention to this in future lessons & report back. :)