Salsa & sex

[brujo]

Salsa is sexy. Salsa is sexy. Salsa is sexy. Salsa is sexy. Salsa is sexy.

Everywhere you go, it seems that the mantra that salsa is like sex is repeated over and over again. Sex on the dancefloor. Sexy blah blah. Tso meet girls, go learn salsa and you'll find them melting over you. Just look at the salsa taglines : steamy / seduce me... bleh.

True, you do hold your partner close to you. But you hold your partner closer in Bachata, Lambada and Merengue, where you are literally leading with your hips connected. Or tango, where the entire dance is a prolonged embrace. But salsa?

I don't see it. Either that or a lot of dancers like sex to be a bunch of really fast, unenjoyable spins combined with messed-up shines and no connection. Is this something popularized by movies like Dance With Me? Or is it that by salsa, they mean latin dances? Is it the hips?

I can see why the original casino moves were viewed as sexy by white people who danced tap, lindy hop and similar dances that are more playful. But the music of the 70s just doesn't lend itself to sexy. Can you imagine dancing sexily to songs with the lyrical content of Rage Against the Machine or Johnny Cash?

[peachexploration]

Pygmalion started a terrific thread called Yambus--Salsa and Sex and included a link that had this exerpt from it:

.....It will help your dance expression and interpretation if you think of Mambo and the other Latin dances as being a sexual pantomime. The thought to hold, is that you are trying to seduce the lady but she is trying to refuse your advances. You push forward and she pushes you away. As you seem to have lost the battle, she titillates you with moves that suggest, you might get what you want but as in the real world, you probably won't get it! When you are dancing, look at your partner. Guys, you are the slave master, seduce her with your eyes. You want this girl! Girls, you're a slave girl, you can't deny the master but you can't demure to his wishes, you must resist him. Look him in the eye, defy him, make him accept your humanity, make him love you!.......

The whole article is interesting but I include the excerpt to illustrate what the dance should be like when you see it. I think part of the problem is people probably are missing the true meaning of the dance. SalsaRhythms and BorikenSalsero can explain it better than I can. Movies like Dance With Me, though they are fun to watch, do not demonstrate Salsa or even Ballroom very well. There's alot more going on that spins, dips and even a couple of flips. :wink: For me, Salsa comes from the "passion within" but unfortunately, not everyone interprets it this way and alot of the time, you may be at the mercy of "their" interpretation. So this may be why you see mostly competition on the dancefloor as opposed to sensuality, passion, closeness, etc.

[youngsta]

I don't see it. Either that or a lot of dancers like sex to be a bunch of really fast, unenjoyable spins combined with messed-up shines and no connection. Is this something popularized by movies like Dance With Me? Or is it that by salsa, they mean latin dances? Is it the hips?

You've missed out on a lot of good salsa then brujo. If all you've seen is a bunch of really fast, unenjoyable spins then you haven't truly danced it or witnessed anyone dancing from their soul. Merengue...there's nothing sexy about the music. Bachata...as much as I love dancing it, I don't believe the dance can be as expressive as salsa. But as always this is subject to everyones personal taste. To be honest the most beautiful, sexy latin dance I witnessed was a cha cha cha.

[Sagitta]

Each latin dance has it's own flavor that I enjoy savoring. For instance, I envision bachata as the latin country dance. Simpler then salsa, but suiting the country tradition.

[borikensalsero]

Me two cents, which usually turn to about 2 bucks in pennies.

Well, sex isn't just the physical connection of two people but everything that encompasses the climax of physically coming together. Why isn't merengue sexy? Because the music isn't, the constant bang, bang, bang leads to boringness, so if a person feels that the same position, every time, with every partner is sexy, then, they’ve missed the point of physical pleasure. Merengue is a wam bam thank you ma’am. There is nothing sexy about a 2 minute courtship where all that matters is how fast the guy does his thing.

Bachata is sexy because its music is sexy. Bachata is about one part of salsa; emotionally transmitting emotion through physical connection. However there is no foreplay involved in the dance, there is no climax, and there isn’t much variation. There is no seek and be sought. So, while bachata is sexy, I’m sure a woman would rather have a session of distant or close seduction followed by foreplay. Continued by teasing on both sides where it becomes irresistible to play any longer, and both come together where the male makes the lady totally his. Done so only because she has allowed him to. He will gently and strongly yet seductively guide her through everything she will allow him to do. In turn, with all he knows, he makes her feel like the only woman alive, to in due time culminate with a total climax like she has never before experienced. At which the time comes where the male takes his time to hold her and let her know that in this dance she is totally his and he totally hers. All of that while during the entire dance the sole purpose is to transmit the emotions each dancer has felt to one another.

Tango, by its nature is a fight for supremacy. Now, I don’t really think a girl rather be fought with than seduced. Unless they are into masochism… Not to say that tango isn’t sexy because it is, nor that girls who like it are masochist because that is false. However, its nature doesn’t give it as much room to engulf just about every feeling a dancer comes up with as in salsa. There isn’t much room for bodily expression nor varied creativity. In salsa all feelings can be expressed by both dancers and with equal opportunity. Intensity varies as the music calls for, and the true pleasure of the hunt is the satisfaction that all of yourself went into attaining the ultimate price of a woman who has let her guard down and allow herself to be yours in a game where force isn’t needed to achieve total satisfaction.

Now, today’s dancing by most dancers is anything but sexy. They have turned it into what you have described, and I sum up as a trap for egotistical males to do what they want to the lady, and the lady submissively allowing it because she thinks that that type of gymnastics display is what salsa is about. Today’s dancers don’t have a full understanding of what dancing salsa is meant to be. How can a person reflect the meaning of something they can’t understand?

[vey]

Wow, is it getting HOT in here or is it just me? :lol:

Boriken, you've hit a bull's eye with this one again !

[borikensalsero]

Wow, is it getting HOT in here or is it just me? :lol:

Boriken, you've hit a bull's eye with this one again !

:bouncy: :banana: :bouncy:

[jenibelle]

Boriken...I love your posts. Do you think that it can depend on your partner whether a dance is sexy???

There is one guy I know who dances both merengue and bachata with the most amazing sensuality and style. I dance with him to either of the dances and melt to the floor. That said, there are precious few men who I dance bachata/merengue with and truly connect with. If I have no attraction to the partner then I have a much weakened interest in dancing hip-to-hip with him and thus the 'sexiness' of the dance is completely lost. Does anyone feel the same way? --- I have to admit I have a bit of a crush on the (above) guy. :oops:

Jeni

[Sagitta]

I think that you have something there jenibelle! How can one be romatic to a stick? However, I don't think that there has to be an attraction or "romantic aspirations" per se. There is one follow whom I would dance anything to just because she really gets into the music and the partnership, and there is no attraction that I know off!! It doesn't even matter that she does a swingy salsa, or that's what she says, anyway!! Even if I don't feel like dancing, or my feet ache, I get up as I know that as I start grooving with her I'll forget it all! :)

[borikensalsero]

Boriken...I love your posts. Do you think that it can depend on your partner whether a dance is sexy???

Jeni

Thank you for the sweet comment Jeni.

There is a lot of truth to that. Mainly when the dancer chooses how to dance while allowing different variables to influence that particular dance, such as partner/song/mood, which pretty much happens all the time. I believe that if there is an attraction to the person we tend to allow ourselves to emotionally charge a dance to a greater degree, as well as allow our bodies to behave in ways it normally wouldn’t. I've danced with people who don't dance sexy, while we can't achieve the same connection as I would with someone who gets into the music and dances sexy, I still do the best I can to achieve a point of total satisfaction as per that person’s abilities, and possible sexiness.

The way I like to think about it is that regardless of who is in front of me, I do the best I can because I like to differentiate dancing with my partner and dancing to the music. Dancing to the music means that the music tells me how sexy or how much "love making", if any, is going to happen during a song. Dancing with my partner means she is the subject of my actions, as well as me being the subject of her actions. I basically have no choice but to let the music do what it wants with me regardless of my partner’s sensuality. I do, however, tone the sexiness down when I see that my partner is struggling to achieve sensuality in her dance. Nevertheless, my dancing to any one song can always be described as sexy. On the lady’s part, I truly believe that a dance should always feel sexy, but doesn’t come out that way because of the males who rather look at themselves in the mirror when dancing.

It is human nature for all of us to allow different variables to influence a dance. So, yes, the person you dance with always has a say on how sexy a dance will end up being. If she isn’t willing to dance sexy, or isn’t able to dance sexy, there will be next to nothing I can do to make the dance sexy no matter how much I try. Kind of like dancing with and egotistical speed maniac, no matter how sexy you want to dance, his search for ego supremacy won’t let you.

[Vin]

I definitely will tone the sexiness up or down depending on how attracted I am to the person I am dancing with. Say what you want about the dance being all about the music, for me it is about the music but it is also about the person I am dancing with. Often times I do dance with women I am not attracted to and those times the dance is more about fun than trying to create a sexually charged atmosphere. I save the sexually charged atmosphere for when I am in seduction mode.

[SDsalsaguy]

Tempo of music also plays a part. How seductive can you be at 100mph after all? (Well, at least when dancing at 100mph! :wink:) There's no time for sensuality... :cry:

[cowpaste]

Salsa? Sex? I wish I was good at at least one of them. :(

[SDsalsaguy]

Question: Is it possible to be good at one and not the other? Well, presumably many people have sex who never dance salsa so, maybe more accurately, the question should be is it possible to be good at salsa and not... well, you all get the idea! :wink:

[Sagitta]

And if you are good at one and get lots of it do you have enough energy for the other? After all both salsa and sex require skill, stamina...

Cowpaste it's easier and safer to get good at salsa!! :) You get good at salsa you learn to be more sensual if you were not good at that before...and so on and so on...

[jenibelle]

Sagitta:
<<how can one be romantic to a stick>>
LOL! My expression was always "it's like dancing with a lamp post" :lol: :lol: :lol:

You're totally right, though. If I only enjoyed dances with men I had romantic aspirations with, well I would have no fun at all. I know of a few like the woman you described...i'm not "interested" in that way but I love dancing with them for whatever reason, be it they have great rhythm, a great smile, whatever it may be.

Maybe we could alter the theory a little bit. I find you have to at least "like" (not romantically) the person you're dancing with. If you think he's a sleaze, or he's dirty, or he's the guy you think dented your car, it's very difficult to let go and show passion/sexiness.

Jeni

[jenibelle]

Boriken:
<<<I believe that if there is an attraction to the person we tend to allow ourselves to emotionally charge a dance to a greater degree>>>

Exactly! I couldn't have said it (much) better myself! (LOL, just kidding :lol: )
But really, that is exactly what I experience when I go social dancing.

Though I find that many newer dancers are less likely to dance "sexy" simply because they don't know how, or rather are still in the developing stages of their sexiness. For example, I mean it's difficult to be sexy when you're counting out loud and watching your feet. If you're relaxed, however, and enjoying the song, and moving your body with ease, it will be 100 x easier.

It's even more difficult to be sexy when you are self-concious about every little movement your body makes (ie. Did that shimmy look good? am I rolling my hips right? does this outfit suit me or should I have worn the black top?) I'm tempted to say that more many people, looking sexy comes with practise. Luckily for me, I have a couple of people close enough to me that I can ask them for feedback. (ie. "Jeni that looks stupid" or "Wow Jeni that worked well" or "what the heck are you doing with your arm there? that's not sexy, that's silly!") Lol! :D I think you guys get the idea.

Wow i've rambled on for a while. I hope what i've said makes a little bit of sense.

Happy new year everyone!
Jeni 8)

[vey]

I find you have to at least "like" (not romantically) the person you're dancing with. If you think he's a sleaze, or he's dirty, or he's the guy you think dented your car, it's very difficult to let go and show passion/sexiness.

I absolutely agree, Jenibelle, you have to at least like a person you're dancing with as a human being, and a big turn off for me (in addition to "he's a sleaze, or he's dirty, or he's the guy you think dented your car" :) ) is when a person is abnoxious or/and "dancing with himself" and not with me, I find it difficult to dance sexy in this case

[peachexploration]

........ I’m sure a woman would rather have a session of distant or close seduction followed by foreplay. Continued by teasing on both sides where it becomes irresistible to play any longer, and both come together where the male makes the lady totally his. Done so only because she has allowed him to. He will gently and strongly yet seductively guide her through everything she will allow him to do. In turn, with all he knows, he makes her feel like the only woman alive, to in due time culminate with a total climax like she has never before experienced. At which the time comes where the male takes his time to hold her and let her know that in this dance she is totally his and he totally hers. All of that while during the entire dance the sole purpose is to transmit the emotions each dancer has felt to one another.....?

Whew! I need a glass of water.....:D :oops: :D Unfortunately, what BorikenSalsero has beautifully described gets messed up and lost in egos, arrogance, group cliques, rudeness, etc. :cry:

[danceguy]

It is human nature for all of us to allow different variables to influence a dance. So, yes, the person you dance with always has a say on how sexy a dance will end up being. If she isn’t willing to dance sexy, or isn’t able to dance sexy, there will be next to nothing I can do to make the dance sexy no matter how much I try. Kind of like dancing with and egotistical speed maniac, no matter how sexy you want to dance, his search for ego supremacy won’t let you.

As a newcomer to Salsa, my dancing isn't very sensual (yet!), as there's a lot for me to work on, the biggest of which are the fears and limitations I put on myself. Sometimes, when the right song comes on, I can just let go and not worry too much about how I look. At least I'm up there giving it my best...

Regarding sexuality and salsa, I really have no interest in dancing with people who are just there to show off and have no real connection to their partner. I do enjoy dancing with a Salsera who is very advanced...but if she is simply dancing "over" you and not respecting where you at...where is the sensuality in that? Likewise, people should be able to express themselves and dance at their level, but at the same time we should never trod on those who aren't up to the task. :oops:

I recall asking several of my female friends once if they would have personal issues with a guy (relationship wise) if he had less sexual experience than they did. Surprisingly (or not surprisingly) enough, most of them said they would, and it was "expected" for any lover to have a certain level of ability in this matter.

While one part of me thought "they do have a right to know what they want" - an even greater part of myself (my heart) said "I can't believe how callous some people can be."

Personally, it really doesn't matter to me how experienced a woman is, have they had no partners or a hundred? In a serious romantic relationship, what I look for is - do we get along well, have mututal attraction, is there love to be shared? That's what's important to me...but other's milage may vary...

Bringing this to dancing...I've had a lot of women tell me they'll finally get out to a club, only to have men "spin them a millon times" until they're dizzy and seem to only care for how good they look while doing so. Sure sounds a lot like how some people can describe their lovers as well. :?

I danced a bit with a lady the other night that had never done Salsa before, and I had the best time ever dancing with her. I knew she was trying her best and making a lot of mistakes, but she had the most wonderful smile and energy around her that immediately had an effect of me. At one point, she just burst out laughing and I asked her "what's so funny?"

With that same great smile she said "this is just so much fun!". I smiled in return and realized at that point, it was the best dance I have ever had with anyone...

I'd rather dance with her type any day of the week.

[brujo]

I'll throw this one in the mix. When I started dancing, it was all about the way the dancing feels. You did moves and everything, but the idea of 'showing off the woman' was never introduced. You just went out with your friends and danced, doing fun stuff to try to get the girls to smile.

When I started taking lessons, everyone was talking about 'showing off the girl'. And the moves that people were learning became flashy and complicated. There was really no connection to speak of, and the music is forsaken for the sake of high technicality and patterns. Sometimes when I dance with a latin or non-studio girl, all that seductive / flirty energy comes out without being downright sleazy. There can be great intense eye contact, and within the moves, there will be the nice little touches we both add in to make it fun. When you dance with a studiohead, however, all that magic seems to be lost, there is almost no eye contact, and she will always seem to be counting the steps in her head while not giving any feedback or eye contact back.

[vey]

When I started taking lessons, everyone was talking about 'showing off the girl'

I've heard this phrase (that salsa is about 'showing off the girl') quite a few times as well :!:

What do you think, guys, does it seem like a wrong message altogether, since it implies the presence of spectators/on-lookers, and, moreover, it implies putting on a show for them :?:

Or is there a grain of truth in it (e.g. suggesting leaders not to concentrate solely on themselves) :?:

[salsachinita]

My experiences are similar to yours, Brujo.

When I first started to dance there were no formal classes or studios (they were for Ballroom only) for salsa. It was a fun street dance shared by Latinos (some can dance better than others, but we all had fun) & the few of us who became part of the clan.

Some salsa clubs did little informal 'class' thingies before the bands went on. That was the extend of it. We went dancing because we love the music & the fun atmosphere. The seduction side of salsa was a known factor & we love it. It was like a license to flirt :lol: without getting in trouble. Things could only go as far as anyone allowed them.

Things were cool until studios realised money could be made from salsa. All of a sudden all the flash moves got imported (mainly from USA), 'elite' students were produced who eventually turned into 'elite' dancers. They make a scene on the dance floor and all of a sudden more people got aspired to be that way.......

Then you get this current gymnasium style salsa at all the clubs. All of a sudden it's more important to impress the crowd, nevermind about the feeling of the person you are dancing with! Seduction...? Who has time?
If you make me look good let's meet here same time next week for more.. :roll: ! The dance floor became a showcase of all the classes/workshops one had invested in.....!

I am not saying this current system is wrong. But clearly, some essential elements of salsa (as we knew it) had been misplaced/forgotten/never taught. 'Studioheads' are not aware (or not interested) in all the multiple layer of this dance as a lifestyle. For most, it's a great medium to show-off in a socially accepted manner, nothing more.

Only through communicating are we going to improve this situation. Forums such as this one is an excellent place to start. Get talking, exchange ideas/experiences. Interact and dance (really DANCE) with each other. We can't bring the good old days back (and do we really want to, anyway?), but we can creat a better future, so people don't miss anything (least of all, fun!).

This way, salsa is still sexy :P !

[vey]

I danced a bit with a lady the other night that had never done Salsa before, and I had the best time ever dancing with her.
Sometimes when I dance with a latin or non-studio girl, all that seductive / flirty energy comes out without being downright sleazy. There can be great intense eye contact, and within the moves, there will be the nice little touches we both add in to make it fun. When you dance with a studiohead, however, all that magic seems to be lost, there is almost no eye contact, and she will always seem to be counting the steps in her head while not giving any feedback or eye contact back.

I think I know exactly what you guys mean. But please do not dismiss us, studioheads, altogether :lol: we might still come around.
My first few times out dancing salsa (without taking any lessons) I was feeling SO GREAT, relaxed and happy like a puppy :lol: But when I started taking classes, I realized the enormity of my undertaking and I lost that feeling that I had during my first salsa dancing, I started sacrificing some of the eyecontact/connection while concentrating on move/step execution etc, but now, after a few month of intensive lessons, websurfing and, of course, DANCEFORUMING, I've developed a certain understanding, a feeling rather, of priority of human contact over steps and techniques and I am ready to come back. :lol:
Watch out, here I come :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Dancegal]

So, while bachata is sexy, I’m sure a woman would rather have a session of distant or close seduction followed by foreplay. Continued by teasing on both sides where it becomes irresistible to play any longer, and both come together where the male makes the lady totally his. Done so only because she has allowed him to. He will gently and strongly yet seductively guide her through everything she will allow him to do. In turn, with all he knows, he makes her feel like the only woman alive, to in due time culminate with a total climax like she has never before experienced. At which the time comes where the male takes his time to hold her and let her know that in this dance she is totally his and he totally hers. All of that while during the entire dance the sole purpose is to transmit the emotions each dancer has felt to one another......

Now, today’s dancing by most dancers is anything but sexy. They have turned it into what you have described, and I sum up as a trap for egotistical males to do what they want to the lady, and the lady submissively allowing it because she thinks that that type of gymnastics display is what salsa is about. Today’s dancers don’t have a full understanding of what dancing salsa is meant to be. How can a person reflect the meaning of something they can’t understand?

IT'S HOT IN HERE :twisted: :P :P :shock: :P :D :banana:

Growing up I remember salsa (as danced by the adults around me at the time) as a sexy dance. Then, many years later I took dance lessons and wondered - why isn't it all that great - (merengue lessons were even worse - the dancing REALLY sucked - no connection, just pretzels and turns). Yeah, I had guys tell me - girls LOVE spins "it's what they do in the clubs". I spin but don't care to be spinning myself to the floor (sarcasm). Something's definitely lost. However, I don't want a man I barely know to c'mon to me so to speak so I'll take the spins to start off with. There is a narrow line between dancing sexy and dancing inappropriately (groping).

[Dancegal]

I always thought that "showing off the girl" meant making the girl look good. What a paradox - from what I see posted, it sounds like it's really about the guy showing off, period.

At a East Coast Swing/Lindy Christmas party recently, we had a salsa performance - they did dance quite sexy (not necessarily due to connection but due to overt guy going down moves/viceversa and also had multiple spins as well. One of the guys in my group who is an experienced Lindy and West Coast Swing dancer said in all seriousness "I could never be a salsa dancer. You'd have to be arrogant and really like to show off". That perception alone sure keeps potential dancers (with better attitudes) from joining in.

[brujo]

That perception alone sure keeps potential dancers (with better attitudes) from joining in.

This is what bothers me the most about the perception of salsa being sexy. People keep having this idea that it is sexy, but with that connotation, also a magnet for the sleazy dirty old men type. Sure I can dance sexy, but most of the time I stick with playful or funny unless I know the girl well and can relax with her ( all acording to the music of course ).

[SDsalsaguy]

Sure I can dance sexy, but most of the time I stick with playful or funny...
But isn't this a key to the problems that we seem to be talking about? Since when can't sexy be playful and funny? How often, when looking at all of those lists about desired mate/partner characteristics, is "funny," or "sense of humor" near the top of the list... especially when you ask women! So why wouldn't that translate into dance as well?

[SDsalsaguy]

I always thought that "showing off the girl" meant making the girl look good.
This is exactly what this means Dancegal, no mistake on your part!

I think where this gets out of hand is in the implementation. To me what this means is that, first and foremost, I take care of her. It means that I don't put her in awkward positions. It means that I don't lead her in moves above her ability. It means that, whatever else, I don't lead things that make her feel less good about herself or her dancing. These, to me, are the very basics of "showing off the girl."

Beyond this basis, however, I want her to walk away from the dance feeling good about herself and her dancing . . . the real point of "showing off the girl." She is unlikely to do this if she feels like an idiot or feels like you are going to make her look like an idiot. So I lead HER, not moves or patterns. Do I do moves/patterns? Sure, of course I do... but they are not what I am leading. I am dancing with a woman, not a piece of dance equipment. So I touch her the way I would touch a woman. And I communicate with her the way I would communicate with a woman. This, to me, is "showing off the girl." Leading her, and not patterns. Making sure that she looks good, not that I do.

Just my opinion...

[SDsalsaguy]

SG… you bring up an important point. Confidence.* It is very, very hard (if even possible) to be sexy without it! Sure, we’ve all seen those trying to be sexy…be it in dress or demeanor. But they usually fail (and often miserably at that). Why? Precisely because they are trying. I think the same thing happens with dancing. How often have we seen newer dancers (usually women) who know that their hips are supposed to “go” and trying to move their hips? It does not look good (or sexy!).

So yes, SG, it may take a little time to gain enough confidence to be able to let one’s dancing to be sexy. The only point I want to stress is that such confidence is possible regardless of “level.” Someone may only dance a basic step, but the question is still if they do so with confidence? What this means is that confidence is not dependent on level. Doing what you do well (not just a subjective assessment!), and then knowing that you do it well, gives rise to confidence…and that opens up the space for sensuality.


* I think a typical mistake, both on the dance floor and in life, is substituting arrogance for confidence – someone who is confident feels no need to act confident after all. I think arrogance in place of confidence well explains many of the dynamics and situations that we’re all complaining about.

[youngsta]

I haven't read all the posts to catch up yet, but seems like I'm seeing 'studio' dancers painted with a broad stroke. I know plenty of studio dancers that have sabor and don't show off just for the hell of it. I also know street dancers that are blatant show offs so lets steer clear of that road.

[brujo]

But isn't this a key to the problems that we seem to be talking about? Since when can't sexy be playful and funny? How often, when looking at all of those lists about desired mate/partner characteristics, is "funny," or "sense of humor" near the top of the list... especially when you ask women! So why wouldn't that translate into dance as well?


The word mambo comes from the Ñañigo dialect spoken in Cuba. It probably has no real meaning, but occurs in the phrase "abrecuto y guiri mambo" ("open your eyes and listen") used to open Cuban song contests. In the Bantu language of West Africa, mambo means "conversation with the gods" and in nearby Haiti, a Mambo is a voodoo priestess.

[http://www.laventure.net/tourist/prez_bio.htm]


To distill salsa into nothing but a mating ritual is an excellent idea. This way, we don't have to teach each other about the intricacies of the dance. We can just have studio lessons on vacunaos and pelt our entire dances with pelvic thrusts. Surely nobody is interested in anything but sex based on the bulk of North American beer commercials. Better yet, let's market salsa like beer ~> Salsa: the king of dances. Salsa : Go get some cross body leads.

In fact, when you dance salsa, you are just horny. You know the Puerto Rican grandmothers shaking to salsa in the kitchen? They are just waiting for a handsome mailman to jump in and get it on to the raw, saultry rhythms of Hector Lavoe. Viva Salsa Romantica!

[SDsalsaguy]

And obviously that's exactly what I meant, right? :roll:

[borikensalsero]

Boy SD, :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: , I truly enjoyed those posts.

What makes salsa so sexy is the same problem that attracts sleaze balls to the salsa world. Lets face it, if salsa wasn’t sexy, we wouldn’t be speaking of it on this thread. Salsa is such a sexy dance that it brings those individuals who are there just to dawg the ladies, hence, causing the ladies to be on the offensive all the time. How many times haven’t we seen those fast spinners looking down at the girls chest of back side in hopes their dress can come up a little higher to take a look. There needs to be no touching nor sensual dancing for a person to feel uncomfortable or violated by someone else.

Many, Many, Many men and women can’t differentiate between being sensual, and being sleazy. Too many times I’ve danced with women who have literally raped me on the dance floor. I’ve been grabbed in certain places where I shouldn’t have, I’ve been told things I should have, I’ve been forcefully pulled to touch things I don’t want to touch. I’ve had just about every move a person can sleazily make to another done to me. For God’s sake, I’ve had women I don’t know from a fly on the wall come out of a spin with their mouth open ready to slap a wet one on my lips. Thank Goodness that my Lady Love laughs it off. There is a thin line between appropriate and inappropriate, what is allowed with your love mate isn’t necessarily with the person down the street. So, where do we as dancers, draw the line between what is sensually allowed and what is taken as a sleazy on the dancefloor?

Lastly, because I am dancing sexy it doesn’t mean that there is any kind of further implications than a dance. This truly seems an impossible measure for some individuals to understand. I see it as, those folks who you smile to passing by on the street and they automatically picture you in their next sexual escapade. All from an insignificant to you human behavior, but obviously misinterpreted by the other person, there is just no way to get away from those individuals whose raging hormones don’t let them think correctly. If they are found on the street chances are that a sample population matching exactly what is on the street will be found on the dancefloor. The only way I see the girls protecting themselves, is to be on the offensive all the time, even if the few smooth/sensual male dancers have to suffer until they have proven it as a style rather than a dawging behavior.

[salsachinita]

* I think a typical mistake, both on the dance floor and in life, is substituting arrogance for confidence – someone who is confident feels no need to act confident after all. I think arrogance in place of confidence well explains many of the dynamics and situations that we’re all complaining about.

I absolutely agree here, SD :D !

Too many people cross the fine line between confidence & arrogance :roll: !

[SDsalsaguy]

Boy SD, :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: , I truly enjoyed those posts.
Woah... praise indeed from our resident wordsmith! :notworth:

Thanks Boriken! :D

[SDsalsaguy]

* I think a typical mistake, both on the dance floor and in life, is substituting arrogance for confidence – someone who is confident feels no need to act confident after all. I think arrogance in place of confidence well explains many of the dynamics and situations that we’re all complaining about.

I absolutely agree here, SD :D !

Too many people cross the fine line between confidence & arrogance :roll: !
Yeah... this is definitely one of those appearance vs. substance items that seems to go awry far too often, isn't it?

[HothouseSalsero]

To the extent that fast salsa dancing is or can be sexy, I think it has more to do with a common energy between the two than any other similarities. It has more to do with intensity, with getting into a certain zone. It's not a matter of speed itself being sexy, but the energy can be similar to the energy of sex, even if I prefer sex--the whole process--at a stretched out, leisurely pace. I'm not interested in the dancing being a realistic, representational, portrait of sex; I'm interested in it being a more formalized abstract expression of sexual energy, or maybe some energy even more basic than that.

I do like sensual salsa dancing, when it's done with taste. Different people will have different ideas of what that means. I am not personally comfortable with being extremely theatrical in my dancing, so play-acting a lot of flirting doesn't work well for me. And I definitely don't like overly raunchy moves. I actually had one instructor in a workshop teach a move in which we were instructed to dramatize the fact that we were "checking out" our partner's breasts and @ss. (This is how the teacher described it.) I'm not saying that I don't look at women's bodies in this way, and I'm not so pure that if your showing flesh, I'm not going to look. No way. But I am not interested in dramatizing that.

[Dancegal]

I actually had one instructor in a workshop teach a move in which we were instructed to dramatize the fact that we were "checking out" our partner's breasts and @ss. (This is how the teacher described it.) I'm not saying that I don't look at women's bodies in this way, and I'm not so pure that if your showing flesh, I'm not going to look. No way. But I am not interested in dramatizing that.

I bet that technique sure took lots of DANCE skill (SARCASM!!) :evil: :shock: . The types of instructors as described above sure help propagate the sleaze balls coming into the scene. It's turned me off somewhat towards the dance. I'd be crazy (as a single female) to dare go into a club solo. Experiences like Boriken described earlier are a real turnoff. I feel WAY safer with the swing crowd, even during blues dances which are by nature sensual. I just hope that my future SO will want to salsa. It's sad to have to be on your guard about this, but it's simply something women end up having to do :( .

[SDsalsaguy]

Dancegal's comments got me thinking... is it also different at different clubs where you all live? Here there are clubs where you know you'll get the meat market scene and others where you know it's mostly dance. Of course there are some guys on the prowl in the second set of clubs as well, but a woman could show up by herself at this second set of locations and still have a good not of (only) dancing.

[HothouseSalsero]

I bet that technique sure took lots of DANCE skill (SARCASM!!) :evil: :shock: . The types of instructors as described above sure help propagate the sleaze balls coming into the scene.

And this instructor is actually a very good dancer, probably largely self-taught, street/club-oriented. When he dances it usually doesn't come across as raunchy as what he teaches, and yet some of the stuff he teaches is pretty raunchy. I don't entirely get it. His female students there seemed to be pretty comfortable with the whole thing, so I guess it's a matter of different levels of comfort with exhibitionism. Its funny, that workwshop was one of the first times I talked with someone I ended up going out with for several months. She was not familiar with the instructor and was pretty shocked by his raunch. Having gotten to know her a lot better, it's sort of funny to think about it, since that is so not her.

This may stir things up, but one reason I tend to be reluctant to pass absolute judgment about these things is that I am well aware that, historically, in many cases anyway (and I'm thinking of the Americas particuarly), there have been class differences in what is acceptable, with the middle and upper classes tending to downplay the more overtly sexual aspects of dance. Again and again, I read about this sort of class stratification. The upper classes in Colombia tended to look down on salsa dancing as being too animalistic, at one point.

There is also the obvious fact that things change from generation to generation. Look: when my mother married my father she stopped dancing because he was a Methodist minister and some people in the church at that time frowned on dancing, because it was too closely linked to sexuality basically, and it could tend to lead to vice, as they would maybe have said. I accept a degree of wiggling around which would my ancestors at some point in the past would probably have found unacceptable.

I personally am not comfortable dancing, especially with relative strangers, while sexually explicit hip-hop lyrics are playing in the background (or for any really sexually explicit lyrics, that I can understand, for that matter--it's just that the most extreme cases I've experienced have been with hip-hop). I don't understand how people can relax in that situation. Even if I were trying to pick someone up (which I'm certainly not opposed to), it would make me that much more uncomfortable about it if I had to do it while those type of lyrics are going. But at any rate, is it really a matter of society falling apart, or is it another step in being more blunt about sex, one that I am too old (or maybe just too shy) to take?

It's turned me off somewhat towards the dance. I'd be crazy (as a single female) to dare go into a club solo.

Sorry to be naive, but is it really that bad? Isn't it possible to sort out the problems and stay away from them? Not being a woman, I probably underestimate how bad it can get. My instructor once told me that almost any time she dances with a male in a club who doesn't know that she's an instructor, she ends up getting groped. (I wonder though: she has a very open, flirtatious, but not seriously flirtatious, way about her, that could tend to attract a more than average amount of groping. Not saying she deserves it!--just that there might be a reason she would get that more often than other women.)

[HothouseSalsero]

Or to pick it up from a different direction: I can also see how a more conservative sex morality would frown on partner dancing (or partner dancing with someone other than a spouse, once you are married--or some such limitation). If you have that sort of contact with members of the opposite sex, it creates another chance for sexual feelings to emerge. So if you place a high enough priority on avoiding extramarital sex, maybe it would make sense to forbid it.

I'm just playing devil's (?)advocate here. I'm for a freer and more open social arrangement than one that would have to eliminate dancing (or lock women out of site to avoid having them do anything that would dishonor the family, or so forth).

[Dancegal]

I bet that technique sure took lots of DANCE skill (SARCASM!!) :evil: :shock: . The types of instructors as described above sure help propagate the sleaze balls coming into the scene.

His female students there seemed to be pretty comfortable with the whole thing, so I guess it's a matter of different levels of comfort with exhibitionism.

"Sleaze balls coming into the scene" referring to both men and women. As mentioned in some of the posts earlier, women have also been offenders in the club scene. Also, in a dance class setting some people may not speak up against that type of so-called DANCE teaching - after all this is supposed to be coming from a professional instructor.....they choose not to fight the garbage they're being taught so as not to burn bridges.

[SDsalsaguy]

.....they choose not to fight the garbage they're being taught so as not to burn bridges.
Sad, but also all too true I'm afraid... :(

[brujo]

This may stir things up, but one reason I tend to be reluctant to pass absolute judgment about these things is that I am well aware that, historically, in many cases anyway (and I'm thinking of the Americas particuarly), there have been class differences in what is acceptable, with the middle and upper classes tending to downplay the more overtly sexual aspects of dance. Again and again, I read about this sort of class stratification. The upper classes in Colombia tended to look down on salsa dancing as being too animalistic, at one point.


It's interesting that you bring up the cultural differences. Looking at the stereotype of the hot latin man, the whole 'sexy' issue can also have roots in the cultural differences between the US and western culture and Latin America.

From what I have seen, North American culture is considered colder by Latin people. The preocupation of personal privacy makes gringos uncomfortable talking about certain things with strangers, while a latino will tell you all about his income and love life after six minutes of meeting you. There is also this constant fear of being politically correct and respectful that simply doesn't cross the mind of a latino when talking.

This also translates in the dancing. In the cuban vacilao, when you spin the girl around, you are supposed to take a look at her and check her out. This of course is taboo in North American society, God forbid that someone makes a comment that the gym-trained, South-beach-dieted, Esther-Laurier wearing body is being admired.

[salsachinita]

Sorry to be naive, but is it really that bad? Isn't it possible to sort out the problems and stay away from them? Not being a woman, I probably underestimate how bad it can get. My instructor once told me that almost any time she dances with a male in a club who doesn't know that she's an instructor, she ends up getting groped. (I wonder though: she has a very open, flirtatious, but not seriously flirtatious, way about her, that could tend to attract a more than average amount of groping. Not saying she deserves it!--just that there might be a reason she would get that more often than other women.)

I think there are a couple of different issues here.

(A) The nature of the clubs themselves, as SD suggested. Some clubs are meat markets (and ppl go there for that purpose), while other clubs seem to be squeaky clean where people go there to dance only. There are in-between ones with both elements involved, which I find more interesting sometimes :wink: (the mixed dynamics is fasinating to observe)!

(B) How the females 'carry' themselves has a lot to do with it as well. I mean, you don't have to be a prue at all, just be really confident & clear that you have NO intention of anything else other than dancing (and if you DO want something else, nothing wrong with it either, guys can sense it), that way you almost 'repel' those sleaze balls (generally works, unless they are too drunk :roll: )!

Hothouse Salsero brought up a really good point though.

My instructor once told me that almost any time she dances with a male in a club who doesn't know that she's an instructor, she ends up getting groped.

When people know who you are (your social positioning) in the salsa scene, whether you be dancer, instructor, promotor, or someone's gf, you generally don't get sleazed on 8) . I guess the nature of a fairly tight salsa community somehow discourages people from possibly wrecking their reputation (with the exceptions to those who couldn't care less) :P ! I call this the 'self-regulator' 8) .

This 'self-regulator' factor only works in your home town. If you happen to be out of town, where no one know you from a bar of soap, you might just have to be extra careful with the body language :roll: !

[SDsalsaguy]

This 'self-regulator' factor only works in your home town. If you happen to be out of town, where no one know you from a bar of soap, you might just have to be extra careful with the body language :roll: !
Not entirely true salsachinita . . . I'm sure that if a woman is recognized as a visiting instructor, for instance, that will still limit the sleaze factor to which she is subjected.

[salsachinita]

This 'self-regulator' factor only works in your home town. If you happen to be out of town, where no one know you from a bar of soap, you might just have to be extra careful with the body language :roll: !
Not entirely true salsachinita . . . I'm sure that if a woman is recognized as a visiting instructor, for instance, that will still limit the sleaze factor to which she is subjected.

The key word here is recognized, SD. if she was only well-known in her own town AND visit other cities incognito, she might still experience some sleaze factor.

On the other hand, if she was internationally known, AND the purpose of her visit to other citie is to conduct workshops etc, then it's very unlikely that sleaze balls will dare try anything.......

Say, if any of our local salsa celebrities were to visit a big city in the US, like NYC, do you think they would still enjoy the same level of recognition..?

(that's why I LOVE travelling.......it gives you a sense of real perspective of how insignificant we all are; this is good for the soul :wink: )

[SDsalsaguy]

I totally agree salsachinita . . . I was mostly reacting to the first half of your statement:
This 'self-regulator' factor only works in your home town.

As far as the rest of it, my guess is that even if not "recognized" as such, if people were told "so-and-so is an instructor" than she'd probably be subjected to less of the sleaze factor. Don't you think so?

[salsachinita]

As far as the rest of it, my guess is that even if not "recognized" as such, if people were told "so-and-so is an instructor" than she'd probably be subjected to less of the sleaze factor. Don't you think so?

Absolutely 8) !