PDA

View Full Version : Dance Somatics


samina
02-15-2007, 01:52 PM
am starting new thread where we can discuss the mechanics of movement & dancing to our heart's content... am picking up relevant bits of commentary from hijacked thread...

This is just to take into consideration about your balance discussion.

Human body is an amazing design by nature to conserve energy and to maximize the ability to move. To that end, our body has pendulum actions. Arms swinging from shoulder joints, Legs swinging from hip joints, and when we walk, our head becomes the swing in reverse to our foot being the fulcrum of the pendilum. So, basically when we swing the leg out and place it on the ground, that immediate moment, the head becomes the top of swing for the whole body to get the body onto the next point of swing (when other foot becomes the fulcrum). There is also some degree of swinging from the knee and elbow (the range of motion is much less than from ball and socket or three dimensional movement joints of course)

Precisely because of that swing motion available to us we were able as humans to walk for a very long time without getting tired (we used to outwalk our much quicker animal prey).

Having smooth motion with a lot of flow is fabulous. If the problem is speed, than that is where the foot placement, leg release timing come into play. What you might want to look at is how you phrase your movement. Maybe you mostly use even phrasing, not enough impulses, impacts, accents, decreases, increases (all the above having to do with energy phrasing, effort qualities, hence muscle tension degree).

nice post from dancesomatics.

swinging lets us move without supplying power and controlling it EVERY moment, by using body weight and body mechanics.

this is how we want to dance in standard.
have no idea about latin, dont' know when this applies in latin...

...and can't believe I am actually involved in a latin discussion:-)...
my partner must be rubbing it off of me:-)

It is the same thing in latin to where your hip swing when you step, so your action never stops.

Samina, here is a little extra something for you to experiment with, since you seem as a pretty good and determined visualizer. As you walk, imagine your sacrum doing a figure eight. If you have problems with that image, let me know, because the figure eight is actually three dimensional.

doing the figure eight laterally, as if cutting through my body horizontally?
is this for regular walking, or rhumba walking.

i so appreciate your input, DS! :)

Ok. Let see if I can explain. It does not specifically happens in any plane, vertical, horizonal, or sagital. That is what I mean by three dimensional figure eight. Basically, when you flex your leg at the hip joint, there is a bone rhythm that happens between the femur in the socket and sacrum. Top of the sacrum (on the side where leg is flexing) slides forward and down (slightly of course), while the top of other side (the standing leg) slight goes up. Put two of hands together in front of you, palms away and try this motion. Wait, I just got an image for this, I am thinking the mantis ray movement in the ocean, it is actually even shaped a little like sacrum. Sacrum tumbling figure eight.

Hope this helps.

Oh, and it is for any walks.

thank you... am going to experiment & visualize & see what i come up with...

does this visualization/movement free up the hip/sacral connection, then? for any sort of movement?

Yes, particularly important when trying to really flex your knees, no tucking of sacrum under whatsoever. Only blocks any joint movement and forces into unnatural position. Plus because sacrum is the base for the long column of the spine, any deviation out of alighnment on the bottom creates huge deviation at the top of the spine. Most people carry their weight too far back by pushing the sacrum forward and under.

this sounds like it will be helpful in that i am trying to correct all misalignment that would result in injury to my knees... i have one exercise in particular for going back in foxtrot to reinforce how to move my body weight properly to avoid knee strain.

One little thing to help with the knee situation, as you are flexing imagine the femur bone rotating outward and the tibia in relationship rotating in.

dancesomatics, i used the visualization of the figure eight in my sacrum whilst doing rhumba walks w/ pivots last night, and frankly am amazed at the difference. i was so much more relaxed in my movement, able to shift my body weight more quickly, enabling sharper, faster movements.

my hip settling went deeper without much thought. and something else emerged for the first time... an energy through the middle of my hands, resulting in certain finger placement i'd never done before... it felt like i was stabilized in a kind of "cross" of energy, one vertically through my spine & another horizontal through my center & out my arms. i felt comparatively so much more balanced and relaxed, and therefore, apparently, able to use sharper movements that have always evaded me. i didn't seek out to do this... it just found me, and then seemed to really help anchor me far more confidently than i've ever felt.

that was just from that one visualization. i have to read thru the rest of what you've written -- i'm not sure i understand what bone rhythms are, and i have to piece together the rest of your anatomical references.

but thank you for that suggestion. i would not have thought something so simple would result in so much more freedom of movement... very pleased. :)

Samina, Bone rhythm is the movement that is happening inside the body between the bones designed by nature to facilitate the best movement possible.

In fact, no bone rhythm creates injuries and restricts dynamic alignment and ideal posture for the body.

Example, see my post earlier about the bone rhythm when you flex knees, or sacrum femor bone rhythm.

and123
02-15-2007, 02:20 PM
Samina or DanceSomatics, can you attempt to describe this magic mantis ray figure 8 motion again? Perhaps it's because I did not study any human physiology (I work with plants), but I can't "see" it and therefore don't seem to be able to feel it :( (or at least I don't think so). And since my latin coach keeps reminding me to tuck my pelvis forward, I wonder if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying since it sounded like this was a bad thing to do.:confused:

samina
02-15-2007, 02:26 PM
i'd like to hear more as well, DS... :)

i know that tucking my pelvis forward is the last thing i've been doing with my dancing, tho... tipping it forward slightly (back end up) while rotating my chest slightly upwards has become the norm for me and has made a whole world of difference in being able to maintain more relaxed balance.

DanceSomatics
02-15-2007, 02:33 PM
I don't want to step on anyone's toes, because tucking of the pelvis has been taught for a long time. The problem with this is once you do it you can not move your hip joints freely. If your coach tell you this because you have a large arch in your lower back, there are other way to fix that problem. The problem with all of this fixed position is that you are not fixed when you move in and out of different positions. Your body's skeleton rearranges and rebalances each time to accomodate the movement. In that way, if coach wants you to lenghten the curves in your spine, fine, but keep in mind that when you decide to flex your hip joints or your knees, you actually need to deepen your spinal curves to get the ease of motion.

As far as sacrum goes, just picture for a while when you flex at your hips that the bottom of the sacrum slightly slides back. (Correct term is to nutate your sacrum, not counter nutate)

Always remember that your pelvis has joints to the spine (sacrum, the two bumps some poeople have on their lower back) and hip joints. So to move your pelvis freely you have to remember those are the places it is actually moves at. The rotation of the pelvis comes from rotation of the spine.

Hope it helps.

DanceSomatics
02-15-2007, 02:46 PM
Samina, what you are actually describing is what I mentioned about sacrum being the platform that the spinal column seats on. When it is aligned properly, the curves balance themselves out resulting in a different posture even at the chest level. I found it as the first major difference for me. Instead of trying to get my shoulders from curving forward by holding them in a fixed position using muscles, the readjustment of the sacrum position helped to lift the ribcage and open up the shoulders naturally. In fact, now that I see my students having a slouched posture, I immediatly look at their sacrum to see if it is counternutated too much and whether their weight is too far back.

The first think I remember from when I was a child taking dance lessons was hide your oranges (buttocks) and donuts (stomach). Good luck, breathing. Talented kids bodies readjust accordingly and still are able to carry on with great movement. In fact, this is exactly how muscle disbalances happen. When your brain feels that you are not moving in accordance with design (bone rhythms), it protects you by limiting your flexibility at the joints that are not moving properly, so now you are forcing the muscles to do that job and they get overworked and overtensed and then decrease your ease of motion in return.

samina
02-15-2007, 02:47 PM
i'm thinking about how all last year i was keeping my pelvis neutral or kinda forward while going up & down steps and while trying to move backwards in tango & waltz... the strain it put on my knees & shoulders...

i'm still in deep exploration of how this postural change is domino-affecting all my movement... all that backwards movement in fox trot is my current #1 experimental sandbox. it sounds like loosening the hip/sacral joint (is that the correct term for it?) is -- pardon the pun -- ... pivotal in keeping one's headweight over the back foot while getting depth.

every time we talk, i want to run & try this stuff out. *lol*

samina
02-15-2007, 02:50 PM
The first think I remember from when I was a child taking dance lessons was hide your oranges (buttocks) and donuts (stomach). Good luck, breathing.

yes, that describes in a way what i was previously trying to do... keeping everything in a sleek line toward the back of my body. no more...

my instructor is always saying that it is impossible to find a fixed position and freeze it throughout the dance... that the body needs to constantly renew its frame throughout the course of movement.

i noticed at my last lesson that i was beginning to feel some workable combination of relaxation & form... it's such exciting territory..

tuftufwang
02-15-2007, 02:53 PM
If your coach tell you this because you have a large arch in your lower back, there are other way to fix that problem.

I have this exact problem! I've always been criticized for having natural arch in my back which causes me to overturn my hips for some reason.

DanceSomatics
02-15-2007, 02:58 PM
I love hearing feedback, I have lots of information I have been learning for the last three years and need my brain to be picked and see how it works out for people who actually have been exposed to different forms of movement.

The one thing I love about Eric's work is that he always talks about where the design originally came from and has all these little tools to demonstrate.

samina
02-15-2007, 03:00 PM
I love hearing feedback, I have lots of information I have been learning for the last three years and need my brain to be picked and see how it works out for people who actually have been exposed to different forms of movement.

i enjoy picking your brain. :)

The one thing I love about Eric's work is that he always talks about where the design originally came from and has all these little tools to demonstrate.

am looking forward to attending one of his workshops..

DanceSomatics
02-15-2007, 03:01 PM
I am not sure I understand TufTuf about overturned hips. See if you can explain, maybe I can help.

Angelo
02-15-2007, 03:08 PM
The rotation of the pelvis comes from rotation of the spine.

Hope it helps.

Can you elaborate on this a little more? Are you saying that the spine rotation preceeds the pelvic rotation in the biomechanical sequence or that the rotation of the two structures is co-incident?

DanceSomatics
02-15-2007, 03:16 PM
If you stand up and literally try to not move your spine, you will not have any pelvis rotation.

DanceSomatics
02-15-2007, 03:21 PM
Have anyone ever heard of Body Talk? It is supposed to be this new quickest growing healthcare system.

samina
02-15-2007, 03:27 PM
w w w.bodytalksystem.com/?skip=1

very interesting... seems to be a melange of a number of different bodywork/healing methodologies...

<continuing to read thru their site...>

samina
02-15-2007, 03:38 PM
appears to be an energy medicine paradigm... worthy of its own thread. very much up that alley, myself.

Angelo
02-15-2007, 04:05 PM
If you stand up and literally try to not move your spine, you will not have any pelvis rotation. I understand that much, that the spine and pelvis rotate pretty much together by virtue of their connectivity and the sheer mass of tissue that surounds the pelvic region, but it sounded like you were saying that the spinal rotation drives the pelvic rotation, while it seems the other way around to me. It's not a major point of contention. I was just curious since it runs contrary to my own habitual thinking about how it works

tuftufwang
02-15-2007, 04:14 PM
I am not sure I understand TufTuf about overturned hips. See if you can explain, maybe I can help.

Ok, I'll try to explain this as best as I can. My former coach told me that the natural curve in my back (perhaps from years of ballet training) was limiting my hip movement i.e. I had close to zero hip motion in all my cha cha and rumba walks. So, she suggested that I over-rotate my hips and exaggerate the hip movements. I ended up turning out my hips a lot more than what is technically acceptable. Now, I have to rectify the problem of over-rotating the hips by tucking my pelvis so as to reduce that curved look on my back. I've noticed female Latin dancers who have this "curved back" look as well and they look much less centered and somehow conveyed an overall weaker look and posture.

DanceSomatics
02-15-2007, 04:34 PM
Angelo, I think what you are saying I term as initiation. You can inititate rotation by rotating the pelvis (feet not moving) or you can inititate rotation by rotating the spine like when you walk your feet as far around as you can while still keeping the shoulders facing front. In any case, you can inititate from any place in your body, but that has nothing to do with the actual structure of the body that lets the pelvis rotate which is still due to vertebras of the spine, not pelvic bones in and of themselves.

To TufTuf, I would need to see visually before I can say anything. As far as swayed back goes, you have to look at each individual separately. I will say though that your pelvis is supposed to act like a spring board to absorb the "shock" while moving so if it is being placed into an unnatural position it will actually limit the flexiblity and ease of movement. That said, we have plenty of pelvis tilting in samba, just try not to tuck the sacrum as well it will distabilize the spine.

Angelo
02-16-2007, 07:33 AM
Angelo, I think what you are saying I term as initiation. You can inititate rotation by rotating the pelvis (feet not moving) or you can inititate rotation by rotating the spine like when you walk your feet as far around as you can while still keeping the shoulders facing front. In any case, you can inititate from any place in your body, but that has nothing to do with the actual structure of the body that lets the pelvis rotate which is still due to vertebras of the spine, not pelvic bones in and of themselves.
.


I am not questioning the structure of the body. I am questioning the biomechanical sequence of which portion of the body shoud initiate the rotation in effficient dance technique . I believe that for most latin technique it should initate at the pelvis.

samina
03-13-2007, 07:33 AM
am currently focusing on increasing mobility in my shoulders, both with exercises and visualization. they feel stiff and i want them to feel "oily".

am considering using elastic tubing to do some strengthening & stretching exercises, but wonder if doing that would exacerbate the tightness.

wondering what others have experienced when working with the shoulder area...

mamboqueen
03-13-2007, 08:04 AM
wondering what others have experienced when working with the shoulder area...

pain. :cool:

Not sure I quite get the "oily" part. My problem is more postural. My shoulders tend to go up. So, I focus, whenever possible, on lengthening the neck and pushing the shoulders down. I also now drive with hands on 5 & 7 (rather than 10 and 2) because it helps keep the shoulders back. I also try to stetch out the shoulder area as much as possible.

samina
03-13-2007, 08:07 AM
pain.

Not sure I quite get the "oily" part.

i basically wants all my joints to feel oily smooth, without resistance or stiffness, just as they did when i was a kid...
I also now drive with hands on 5 & 7 (rather than 10 and 2) because it helps keep the shoulders back.hey, that's a good idea...

Josh
03-13-2007, 11:13 AM
am currently focusing on increasing mobility in my shoulders, both with exercises and visualization. they feel stiff and i want them to feel "oily".

wondering what others have experienced when working with the shoulder area...

Well, for dances that use lots of independent body motion, I do isolations. So for shoulders, try rolling one shoulder back, then forward, focusing on moving ONLY the shoulder, and nothing else. Try both shoulders, and so on. Do the same for pelvis, torso, and anything else you want. Over a period of time you'll have much better control of individual body parts and can move them in isolation. I use it all the time with salsa students who look like robots and need loosening up! :-)

DanceSomatics
03-14-2007, 04:52 PM
Samina, here is a link to a workshop on shoulder that will be taught in manhattan https://clients.mindbodyonline.com/home.aspn this Sunday.

Other than that, if you want oily feeling in your joints, just image alone will make a difference for you. On a physical, nervous system level, think of the arm rolling up, sliding down and spinning in the joint when you pick your arms up and the oppositne when you bring them down. A good exercise to relaxing the shoulders is to squeeze the top part like the sponge while you shrug the shoullder up and then release feeling the muscle feel up with water, then again. Do it a few times, then just imagine doing it, then do it again in reality. Check the flexibility of shoulder joint immediately after on the side you did it on. Also check the difference between the sides, while balancing on the same leg you did the shoulder on and jumping on it also, then try the other side. You should feel big difference. Especially, when jumping, the body feels compeletely lifted on that side.

Also, people always talk about scapula hand connection, but seem to forget that the shoulder girldle actually only connects to the body via the clavicles and sternum joint. Clavicle also rotates when you pick up your arms or just shrug your shoulders.