Want a dance, not a lesson

[dancedude314]

Hi, dance forum, this is my first post. This recent episode at a club annoyed me so much, it prompted me to become a member to see what others thought.

After having the pleasure of watching a lady dance very well, I asked her to dance. Now, I'm not the king of salsa or anything, but I've been taking group lessons (LA style) for almost a year, so I'm no klutz.

After nothing more complicated than a turn and a CBL, she starts lecturing me on the "proper" way to turn and the "proper" way to do a CBL. As if that wasn't annoying enough, her directions seemed to contradict what my instructor has told me. For example, on the CBL, the lady at the club told me NOT to keep my right arm straight, and to use my right arm to execute it. This is completely backward from what I've learned. First of all, I've been told over and over to keep my right arm straight in order to prevent the lady from moving forward on the slow beat, and then to use my left arm to pull her forward as I step back. I couldn't resist saying to this lady, "that's not what my instructor told me"--a comment that she simply laughed off. When I turned her, she told me that, since she was a good dancer, I should let her do most of the turn on her own. (I was under the impression that I should make a circle motion over her head. When I did this, I felt a great deal of resistance in her arm throughout the whole motion.) She also claimed I moved my hips too much for a man (I generate hip movement from toe-heel steps).

To make a long story short, she had so much instruction to give, I barely did anything but listen to her and do basics for the whole song. My instinct is that this was extremely rude on her part, but I was interested in what more experienced dancers had to say.

I also wanted to know what people had to say about her comments, since, as annoying as she was, she may have had valuable information to give. The problem is, I don't know how to sort that information out, since, as I said, some of her comments contradicted those of my (highly qualified) instructor. For example, do I, as a man, have to worry about generating too much hip motion from toe-heel movements?

[waltzgirl]

Hi, dancedude314! Welcome to DF!

There are a lot threads on similar problems! Lots of us have had this experience and most of us hate it, too! It's especially tough, I think, at the kind of stage you are at, where you know some things but also know you have things to learn. So sometimes, it might be good advice, but being lectured on the dance floor is so unpleasant and so bad for confidence, the yuck factor of the experience far outweighs any possible benefit! All I can advise is not to ask her again. (If you search things like "teaching on the dance floor," you may find some of the other threads on this topic.)

I do a lot more ballroom than salsa, so I'll let the experts weigh in on the specific advice you got. But as a follower, I will say that my favorite leads are not those who think in terms of "preventing" or making me do anything. A lead should be an invitation to move, but the movement in response is mine. IME, it's especially tricky to try to orchestrate a turn for a follower. Unless you are expert enough to be acutely aware of where her balance is at all times, any force you exert on her turn is more likely to pull or push her off balance than to help her. That's probably why you got some resistence; she may have felt nervous about being pulled off balance. It's very tough to learn to lead well in group classes and, unfortunately, sometimes you end up developing bad habits from leading ladies who don't know how to follow.

[sweavo]

Hi, dance forum, this is my first post.

Hi dancedude!

Two aspects, first: the particular technique. There are different schools of thought on how turns should be executed etc. Not everybody likes to dance with everybody, and there are many different preferred types of lead depending on the style and the level of the dancer. As you social dance, you will gel with some people and not with others. Even those whose follow doesn't quite work with your lead should be keen to dance with you some more in order to get to know one another physically.

Second: the free advice. Lecturing is rude, and it sounds like she's talking crap anyway. Anyone who really was a good dancer would not have to tell you she was a good dancer. Of course, it's possible that your lead sucked, but we will overlook this for now :-)

If you have had all your classes with one instructor, maybe you should get to a couple of classes by others. Don't seek the "one true way" but just comply with each school's little details whilst at that school. This will give you a slightly wider picture as to what is out there and what works for you... you never know, you might suddenly recognize this woman's advice and be able to lead her easily from then on. But if I were you, I'd simply never ask her again, on personality grounds.

[quixotedlm]

No doubt, instruction on the floor was inappropriate and rude.

The specifics of what she seemed to have said might be valuable insight to learn. For a simple XBL with inside turn, it's possible lead the entire move with just your right arm leading her torso and not using left arm at all, or just using it for minimal guidance. Also, letting the follower do her own turns without providing any momentum to her (but merely augumenting her own balance) is how turns are generally done. 'You have too much hip motion' might be true, but that's not necessarily something you should care about now.

The possibility of her being right on her teaching doesn't make it acceptable to teach on the floor. So go to another teacher and see what she thinks about your lead, but avoid asking her to dance just the same.

[Tanguera]

Welcome to DF Dancedude314! :)

No doubt, instruction on the floor was inappropriate and rude.
[...]
The possibility of her being right on her teaching doesn't make it acceptable to teach on the floor. So go to another teacher and see what she thinks about your lead, but avoid asking her to dance just the same.

I perfectly agree with Quixotedlm. :)

I think you are a true gentleman, maybe an other man would have laughed at her teaching on the dancefloor.

Teaching on the dancefloor is really inappropriate, whatever being the dance.

[tj]

Welcome to DF, dancedude!

I agree with what the others said. Regardless of right/wrong, it's rude to give advice/lessons when it wasn't asked for.

[naturallove]

Now, I will say (I'm a follower) that certain ones of my salsa buddies will let me know if I'm following something incorrectly to help me improve if we're dancing. Or if we're totally on the wrong beat, I'll give them the eye. But we've known each other for some time, and it's all in the spirit of fun. And we don't do it often. This woman did not know you and if she wants to tell you how to lead, guess what she should be doing? LEADING. If she had to tell you what a good dancer she was, she probably wasn't.


The resistance in her arms seems to indicate a lot of backleading on her part--which is not good, IMO. I think she had her ideas about how much she should be turning herself and just went with that! One of my instructors talks about salsa being a conversation. You can either SHOUT AT A WOMAN TO TURN or be so casual about it that it's like 'you can turn if you want, whatever'. I think a good lead will come somewhere in the middle. It takes time to get to that place and dancing with and learning to adjust to different follows (and visa versa).


As for a man moving his hips too much--I couldn't say without seeing you. I don't like when a man dances straight-legged, becuase the dance become uncomfortable and jerky for me. On the other hand, there is this guy on the scene that moves his hips waaaaay too much, but it does NOT come from his foot action. His hands also move like he's playing double dutch and I feel jerked and tossed around and hate dancing with him because of it.

Lastly, I want to encourage you to keep learning and ignore folks who think they know everything. I have just started learning to lead and it's given me an immense respect for how tough it is on the other side. I thought I 'knew' how things should feel as a follower, but am having quite a tough time translating that into good leading. So while this particular follow might think she knows what to do, what we think is the 'correct' way may not be right at all.

[Sagitta]

Hi, dance forum, this is my first post. This recent episode at a club annoyed me so much, it prompted me to become a member to see what others thought.
Then welcome...anything to get another member of our community. ;-)

I had a similar recent experience with cha cha cha. And after the fact I've now found out that this person actually knows less than I do!

I say if she is lecturing, then dump her. That's what I did. I'm sorry, but if a lady does what she did to you I simply give them a choice to lead. If they decline I ask them to please try and follow however I lead and if that is not satisfactory we do not have to endure dancing until the end of the song.

[sweavo]

if a lady does what she did to you I simply give them a choice to lead. If they decline I ask them to please try and follow however I lead and if that is not satisfactory we do not have to endure dancing until the end of the song.

:notworth: Nice! :notworth:

[Dancelf]

I say if she is lecturing, then dump her.

Excuse me, I have to sit out now. Short phrase, easy to remember, great utility.

[englezul]

Buy one of those $5 pocket note pads, get a small pen too - small enough to fit in your pocket. A spacepen or something.

Dance with her again, when she starts lecturing you say enthusiastically "All right!!! Free lesson, this is awesome!" take your pen and pad out and act like you're about to take notes. Owned.

She'll get the message.

[dancedude314]

Thank you all for your comments.

As far as my turns go, I feel that I adjust my lead according to who I'm dancing with. With some followers, a slight hand motion is enough to execute a turn. But if the follower isn't responsive, I tend to compensate with a stronger lead. I suspect that the lady I danced with was used to leading her own turns. Thus, she may have a had a built-in notion of when and how to turn that conflicted with my own sense of the timing. Hence the resistance in her arm throughout the turn.

Regarding the suggestion to visit other dance lesson venues: I'm a graduate student, and I'm already taking 6 hours of lessons a week at my school (2 salsa classes, a ballroom class, and a swing class, all with the same instructor). I can afford these lessons because of my status as a student, but to take lessons elsewhere would be a stretch on my budget, as well as my time. Of course, I also feel a large amount of loyalty to my instructor.

[LatinDancer006]

Ditto on what everyone said about proper ettiquette. Putting ego aside, are you talking about a two hand CBL or in closed frame CBL?

If it's a two hand hold and cross your right hand over your left on count 3 to keep her from going forward, that should be fine. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not a lead for her to do anything. You just want to stop her on her track before you invite her over. The dominant message there is that you want her to stop from moving forward. But, 1% of the ladies will nitpick about that misleading her to turn.

If you CBL is in closed dance frame, the straightness of your right arm would depending on your proximity to her. What's her problem.

However, the way you phrased your statement about pulling her accross with your left hand raises questions with me. For the follower, it'll feel like you're pulling her down and off balance. Instead use the right arm to guide her across. I guess you could use the left arm but only towards the end of the CBL to get her to turn 180 degrees to face you. But with the body and arms position, that's not really necessary. She'll do that on her own. Know what I mean?

As far as the turns are concern, she's shooting herself in the foot because she would not know if you want her to do a double turn or a single turn.

I think you handled it well by just dancing the basic through the rest of the song. Who needs the stress. You're there to have fun not to be critized. Hope you didn't let that shoot down your confidence on your next dance with someone else.

[LatinDancer006]

Buy one of those $5 pocket note pads, get a small pen too - small enough to fit in your pocket. A spacepen or something.

Dance with her again, when she starts lecturing you say enthusiastically "All right!!! Free lesson, this is awesome!" take your pen and pad out and act like you're about to take notes. Owned.

She'll get the message.

:uplaugh:

[LatinDancer006]

... but if a lady does what she did to you I simply give them a choice to lead. If they decline I ask them to please try and follow however I lead and if that is not satisfactory we do not have to endure dancing until the end of the song.

When I first started at this studio, there was an instructor (a product of the 6 weeks training) that loves to correct you while you're dancing with her at a social -- be it your body position, your rise and fall, your hand position, your rotation or lack thereof, she'll backlead it while you're dancing with her. She's a very nice person and probably had good intentions, but it really bugged me. :evil: She'd miss my lead a lot of times because her attention is else where. So one time I just stopped and asked if she wants to lead because I don't mind learning to follow. She laughed it off and we finished the dance. But from then on, I'd try to avoid her.

[dancedude314]

However, the way you phrased your statement about pulling her accross with your left hand raises questions with me. For the follower, it'll feel like you're pulling her down and off balance.

It's hard to exactly describe what I'm doing, since I'm used to doing it rather than saying it. In a two-hand CBL from open position, I actually pull a bit with my left arm at the beginning of the lead to bring her foot forward, but keep my right arm crossed over her body to keep her from moving forward on the slow beat. Now that I think of it, I do use my right arm to turn her around after this, with a small amount of guidance with my left.

[alemana]

Having been through all this:

It's possible to disdain the breach of etiquette (which is what it is) and simultaneously try to learn from it.

[samina]

i'm rarely bothered by preachy sorts... everything seems like an opportunity to me, and i frequently ask for advice... am not trying to make every dancing experience the same, and i don't expect every dance partner to dance like everyone else... there are always idiocynracies. as the follower, i figure it's my job to kinda crawl under the skin of the guy and try to match him in order to make it work.

if getting into him like that is repulsive, i avoid dancing with him. if i love the journey, he'll become a favorite partner of mine. if he thinks he's better than he is & has an arrogant edge & is not a gracious lead... i won't give him the time of day unless he's chasing me down.

that pretty much sums it all up for me... the social aspect of dancing stays simple that way.

[Josh]

...I've been told over and over to keep my right arm straight in order to prevent the lady from moving forward on the slow beat, and then to use my left arm to pull her forward as I step back. [...] When I turned her, she told me that, since she was a good dancer, I should let her do most of the turn on her own. (I was under the impression that I should make a circle motion over her head. When I did this, I felt a great deal of resistance in her arm throughout the whole motion.) She also claimed I moved my hips too much for a man (I generate hip movement from toe-heel steps).

To make a long story short, she had so much instruction to give, I barely did anything but listen to her and do basics for the whole song. My instinct is that this was extremely rude on her part, but I was interested in what more experienced dancers had to say.

[...]
For example, do I, as a man, have to worry about generating too much hip motion from toe-heel movements?

Welcome to DF dd314...

(1) What a *****. If you don't already have a DND (do not dance) list, make one. Then write her name on the first page. On every line. I can never in my wildest dreams imagine telling a stranger that she moved her hips the wrong way. Ugh.

(2) As far as keeping your right arm straight leading a closed CBL--don't. Don't know where your instructor is coming from. Maybe take a pic and let us see it or something. But yeah, pressure coming from your whole frame prevents her from moving forward too far, not a straight arm. [don't mistaken this to mean never straighten your arm... if you're reaching for her, fine, but don't use it in the way you described]

(3) Two sides to the turn coin--she turns herself, for sure. But you should initiate the lead for it. You should circle your hand in a tight circle above the head, as you describe, with a bit of pressure.

(4) Hips. Yes, you should move your hips. But, not like a lady. When you say you generate hip motion from "toe-heel" steps, I think you mean that you step on the ball of the foot, and the leg action causes your hip motion. Fine, but you don't want a LOT of hip motion as a man. (when you say "toe heel," I think you really mean "ball-flat", the more correct term used to describe the footwork--TH would mean your ankles are fully flexed, almost on your toes, and then you're lowering, as in step 3 of waltz, which I'm pretty sure you're not :wink: ).

Bottom line: learn from people like this, but there's no rule that says you have to like her, dance with her, speak to her, or even look at her ever again.

[dancedude314]

(2) As far as keeping your right arm straight leading a closed CBL--don't. Don't know where your instructor is coming from. Maybe take a pic and let us see it or something. But yeah, pressure coming from your whole frame prevents her from moving forward too far, not a straight arm. [don't mistaken this to mean never straighten your arm... if you're reaching for her, fine, but don't use it in the way you described]


It was a two-handed CBL from open position. This is the one thing I'm very confident that I am doing correctly. My right arm isn't necessarily so straight as to lock the elbow, but it's certainly crossed in front of her body at the beginning.

[Blaxican]

I would take that experience wad it up like the trash that it was and shoot her into the basket.
My advice to you is simple: Just keep dancing. In time, you will develop your own style. Perfect your craft. I've danced with followers who may have had some issues, but in social dancing i just make it work. I am not saying i am a Salsa god and i have issues sometimes dancing more advanced follows. I sometimes get nervous dancing with a "star" i have never danced with like Magna Gopal, Azucena Perez,etc. In the end, I do what I can do within my arsenal to make it a good dance, and you should too.

[Catarina]

Just wanted to chime in to say that getting unsolicited constructive criticism mid-dance is no fun, whether they are a good dancer or not. maybe she considers herself a good dancer, but is lacking in the social graces of social dancing and as such is not necessarily the most reliable source of information (what do i know though- maybe she is!?) ... don't let her comments in 3 minutes' time worry you too much about your form or your lead. as others have said, let your instructor do that.

[SDsalsaguy]

Two different points. First, like everyone else I agree that the conduct in question is shameful. Period.

Second, and separately, is your descriptions of your leading. On a CBL, for instance, I would not agree with using your left arm to "pull" the follow. But is that specifically what your teacher meant (vs., something they were saying in one particular instance)? If so it demonstrates a fairly flawed understanding (or at least vocabulary) of good lead/follow. Still doesn't excuse the unsolicited on-the-dance-floor-lesson though!

[dancedude314]

Two different points. First, like everyone else I agree that the conduct in question is shameful. Period.

Second, and separately, is your descriptions of your leading. On a CBL, for instance, I would not agree with using your left arm to "pull" the follow. But is that specifically what your teacher meant (vs., something they were saying in one particular instance)? If so it demonstrates a fairly flawed understanding (or at least vocabulary) of good lead/follow. Still doesn't excuse the unsolicited on-the-dance-floor-lesson though!

I miss-spoke a bit when I first described how I do a CBL from open facing position. I later on elaborated on this. I'm used to DO-ing the move, not writing about it, so it's easy for me to be sloppy in the description. However, I certainly am instructed to pull a little bit with my left hand at the beginning in order to bring her foot forward. The right arm goes across her body to prevent her from continuing her forward motion during the slow beat. Then I use might right arm with a bit of support from my left to turn her 180 degrees.

This is how I've been taught to do it for almost a year by a dance teacher whose opinion I have no reason to distrust. (She's been dancing her entire life, and is a sight to behold on the dance floor.)

[dosvueltas]

Welcome to DF, dancedude!

I agree with what the others said. Regardless of right/wrong, it's rude to give advice/lessons when it wasn't asked for.

I have to disagree slightly.

When you're actually on the dancefloor on the middle of the dance, it's rude. UNLESS you're doing something stupid and dangerous, in which case for safety it's perfectly justifiable for the lady to tell you at the instant. For instance I see lots of idiocy when it comes to forcing moves, turning women without removing the thumb to allow free swivel, hammerlock moves, and being so out of time the lady is tugged and yanked uncomfortably, and so on. In these cases I wish MORE women would tell guys ON THE SPOT not to do these things.

Out of the dance though, if someone sees a couple practising, and they are either befuddled, confused, and most of all, dangerous, I find it a moral obligation to at least try to give a pointer or two. Of course, done delicately, diplomatically, and nicely. This is a no-brainer for me when it compromises safety of the follower.

When I was starting out and fumbling right in front of advanced dancers, who either just ignored me, rolled their eyes or outright laughed, and none of them lifted a finger when they could have easily pointed out that ONE thing I was doing wrong. I never forgot that experience.

ONE pointer, ONE correction from an experienced dancer can be like a key that unlocks many sequential doors. Many a time, an experienced dancer has given me a key tip that, once applied, immediately helped MANY things fall in place. Now that I've reached a higher level, I try to do the same, especially when it involved safety.

A lot depends on the ego of the recipient in these off-dancefloor cases. If it's taken well, I've made a small contribution to the development of a dancer. If it's taken badly, I don't do it anymore and just sit back and wait for the inevitable to happen.

It has never failed to happen.

[Josh]

It was a two-handed CBL from open position. This is the one thing I'm very confident that I am doing correctly. My right arm isn't necessarily so straight as to lock the elbow, but it's certainly crossed in front of her body at the beginning.

Well, I'm glad you're confident that you're doing it correctly, but.... still.... while I rarely say anything in salsa is WRONG, what you're doing could be done better by keeping your right arm bent. Your right arm needn't be crossed in front of her to keep her back. Pressure from your core, and through your arms and hands, keeps her back. If you have to "block" her with your right arm, then something's wrong there. You can open up on 3 (on1), provide appropriate compression, and with a halfway-decent follower, keep her there, without ever straightening the right arm or blocking her with it. For that matter, you can do the same thing with only a L-to-R hand hold, dropping the R-to-L connection completely. In fact, if you straighten your right arm, this should signal her to open up to her right a bit, and would signal many ladies that a turn is ahead--not what you intend.

In addition, keeping separate "tracks" for your right and left arms (and, consequently, hers) in an open facing position with no turn done yet (except your 1/4 turn), as in your case, is a much cleaner look, and less pretzel-like than what you're describing. I'll try to post a picture of what I think you're describing later tonight and what I would do in the same situation. Again, none of this is trying to knock your teacher, because we all have different levels of expertise, styles, and opinions--just trying to make life easier.

[dancedude314]

Well, I'm glad you're confident that you're doing it correctly, but.... still.... while I rarely say anything in salsa is WRONG, what you're doing could be done better by keeping your right arm bent. Your right arm needn't be crossed in front of her to keep her back.

Well, I happen to like the "pretzel-ish" way to do the CBL. I know I don't absolutely have to do it this way. To be honest, I feel capable of leading a CBL with just the right or left arm from open facing position. However, the "pretzel" CBL was the first one I was taught. I think it looks good, and I enjoy doing it.

I don't want to get into a debate about whether people *should* do a pretzel style CBL. That's an issue of personal taste--not an issue that we can resolve by pure thought alone.

[Josh]

Well, I happen to like the "pretzel-ish" way to do the CBL. I know I don't absolutely have to do it this way. To be honest, I feel capable of leading a CBL with just the right or left arm from open facing position. However, the "pretzel" CBL was the first one I was taught. I think it looks good, and I enjoy doing it.

I don't want to get into a debate about whether people *should* do a pretzel style CBL. That's an issue of personal taste--not an issue that we can resolve by pure thought alone.

Well, good for you--nobody's telling you to do it otherwise, just giving some feedback on that way versus others. Like you said, you like the way it looks, and you enjoy it--now, as long as SHE does as well, then it's all good bro.

[salsamale]

... I also wanted to know what people had to say about her comments, since, as annoying as she was, she may have had valuable information to give. The problem is, I don't know how to sort that information out, since, as I said, some of her comments contradicted those of my (highly qualified) instructor ...
If this salsera is advanced, or has had instruction from other instructors, her comments may have some merit.

I see salseros give mini-lessons to budding salseras on the dance floor all the time, at the clubs. It wouldn't surprise me if some dozen-or-more salseros in this salsera's past decided to give her a mini-lesson on the dance floor, or offer her a "private lessson". Next time, you should ask her for a "private lesson" :).

[Sabor]

i always say to listen to 'advice' 'opinion' or 'lesson' if u wana call it that way.. it all depends on how its said and when.. an instructor is not necessarily right by the way.. actually i saw many who should take classes all the way from the beginning.. nevertheless, its always prudent to be open to anything different.. cause, u really never know in this form of art..

its good to listen and think .. if she is right, then she done u good.. if she is wrong.. then, so what?.. i know people are touchy and dont like to be told what or how to do things differently.. but, if u are a person who is not easily intimidated and sure of yourself .. u will always gain no matter the experience

[dancedude314]

i always say to listen to 'advice' 'opinion' or 'lesson' if u wana call it that way.. it all depends on how its said and when.. an instructor is not necessarily right by the way.. actually i saw many who should take classes all the way from the beginning.. nevertheless, its always prudent to be open to anything different.. cause, u really never know in this form of art..

its good to listen and think .. if she is right, then she done u good.. if she is wrong.. then, so what?.. i know people are touchy and dont like to be told what or how to do things differently.. but, if u are a person who is not easily intimidated and sure of yourself .. u will always gain no matter the experience

Nah, I think that woman was full of it. Dance instructors may not be infallible but given the option, I'd listen to the instructor who had been dancing for 30-40 years over the random dancer that shows up to a club.

[tj]

Lol, you know... you were the one asking for people's opinions of whether she was right or not, weren't you?

[dancedude314]

Lol, you know... you were the one asking for people's opinions of whether she was right or not, weren't you?

The main thing I was asking about was the business with the hips. A lot of the replies I got were of the nature "maybe she had something valuable to say even if though it conflicts with what you learned." I'm aware of that, but taken by itself, this is not very helpful advice.

[Roo]

Just another thought on the side of what others were saying about safety... Though many "random dancers" at a club can be full of ****, as your partner they can feel what it feels to be connected and moving with you, which - if your instructor is also a guy and doesn't ever follow with you, he may not be able to point out something a partner could feel (though many can get it visually).

[Sagitta]

The main thing I was asking about was the business with the hips. A lot of the replies I got were of the nature "maybe she had something valuable to say even if though it conflicts with what you learned." I'm aware of that, but taken by itself, this is not very helpful advice.hmmm...

Last paragraph: "I also wanted to know what people had to say about her comments, since, as annoying as she was, she may have had valuable information to give. The problem is, I don't know how to sort that information out, since, as I said, some of her comments contradicted those of my (highly qualified) instructor. For example, do I, as a man, have to worry about generating too much hip motion from toe-heel movements?"

Given that most of your post before this quote was about the lady and what she did and you ask the hip question as an example..."as to how you determine how to sort information out" it is extremely misleading. Reading what you said I definitely thought that you were asking about how to weigh people's opinions, and the value of the advice you were given so far.

Darn it!!! oh...welll.....

[waltzgirl]

The main thing I was asking about was the business with the hips. A lot of the replies I got were of the nature "maybe she had something valuable to say even if though it conflicts with what you learned." I'm aware of that, but taken by itself, this is not very helpful advice.


Well, we can't see your hips! So how can we tell ;) ?

If you had just wanted to complain about a rude dancer lecturing you on the dance floor, you'd have gotten nothing but support.

But if you ask for technical advice on DF, you're going to get some!

[sweavo]

Dancedude, the way to take ALL advice is with a pinch of salt. Even of the instructor you are paying for that advice. If you are now insecure about your wiggle, ask more people (but as waltzgirl points out, people who can see your hips!) ... when you have the advice of 10 people, you will have an idea of who was talking nonsense and who seems to have a clue. There's no hurry to resolve all conflicting ideas, take your time, seek to accommodate every opinion until you eventually build up a picture that is complete enough for you to reject some elements.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I don't get unsolictated advice anymore. When I did, I didn't like it. Some people don't realise that dancing socially is different than being in class. Dah.

[MacMoto]

The main thing I was asking about was the business with the hips.
Hip motion generated by toe-heel movements can be exaggerated or subtle. If you are doing the same movement as your female instructor, it may look too much simply because you are a man. Also, there may be a slight difference between ballroom hip motion and street salsa hip motion, and your hip motion may appear more ballroom-y (I don't know ballroom so I could be totally off the mark). And hip motion (particularly on a man) can look unnatural if the motion stops at the waist with no ribcage/shoulder motion to go with it.

Or maybe the girl was talking rubbish. There's no way of telling if she had a point without looking at how you dance...

As for the "teaching on the dancefloor" thing, I hate it when guys do it, but I still listen to all the advice I get (unless the guy giving it is *clearly* clueless). I try and adopt what they say and see if it helps. Some pieces of the on-dancefloor advice I received in the past have proved to be very useful.

[azzey]

Nah, I think that woman was full of it. Dance instructors may not be infallible but given the option, I'd listen to the instructor who had been dancing for 30-40 years over the random dancer that shows up to a club.

She may have been. Regardless, it is not your instructor who is on the floor dancing with the woman. It is you. Is there not a chance you may have only part of the picture? (i.e. that part given only by words)

Having been dancing now for just over 5 years I still actively listen with my body to beginners and dancers of all levels in terms of how they react to my leading and then make adjustments on-the-fly and learn from it. Adaptation is one of the fundamental leading & following skills for good social dancing.

A couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to dance with 20 of the hottest professional dancers in the world. I could feel they all had different expectations in terms of leading & following, connection, how things should be done etc. Which one was correct? ALL OF THEM! Each dance required major adaptation on both our parts. It's those who fail to be flexible and adapt who fail to communicate.

Every now and then a beginner-know-it-all might try to verbally teach me something (without realising I'm trying hard to dance at their level and without having seen me dance with someone my level), however I try hard to smile, listen and see what she's got.. feedback is hard to find unless you pay for private lessons. Friends will not often tell you straight. So take advantage while you can. Soon they may be too intimidated by your status to give you open and honest feedback!

Btw, the dance floor is for dancing! That's why it's called a dance floor. It's hard enough getting a groove on to the music and a good conversation with your partner without them interrupting you all the time. If someone wants to show me/me to show them something lets take it off the floor to the side after the dance. Learning to follow a bit is useful as you can always respond by suggesting she demonstrate by leading and you follow. Following is fun and relaxing!

[dancedude314]

And hip motion (particularly on a man) can look unnatural if the motion stops at the waist with no ribcage/shoulder motion to go with it.


Is there supposed to be shoulder motion in salsa?

[dancedude314]

She may have been. Regardless, it is not your instructor who is on the floor dancing with the woman. It is you. Is there not a chance you may have only part of the picture? (i.e. that part given only by words)


Look, I think this will be much simpler if I just tell you want I want to hear:

Dancedude, that woman was completely out of her mind. I don't know what she thought she was dancing, but it sure wasn't salsa. Dancedude, you might as well have invented salsa. When I watched you dance, one friend exclaimed in amazement "that was awesome." My other friend corrected him: "no, it was outstanding." I simply shook my head, and said in a whisper, "no. It was ridiculous."

[noobster]

As for the "teaching on the dancefloor" thing, I hate it when guys do it, but I still listen to all the advice I get (unless the guy giving it is *clearly* clueless). I try and adopt what they say and see if it helps. Some pieces of the on-dancefloor advice I received in the past have proved to be very useful.
Yeah, ditto. I don't like when guys teach on the floor either but I listen to all of it and try to think about it and incorporate it - at least for that dance.

Some of the advice I've gotten over time has been directly contradictory (e.g., I need more tension in my arms/I need less tension in my arms), so I figure those cancel out. But if I hear the same thing from more than one guy (e.g., I'm hyperreactive to the lead) I take that as a sign of something I need to work on.

But even if the person is telling you something that probably isn't relevant for your other future partners, it is relevant for that person. So I think that in the interests of trying to salvage your good time, it's useful to try and adjust the dance to the person's expectations. Of course if they are constantly giving you directions, that's no fun and I'd say you're justified in walking off the floor.

Regarding hips, shoulders, etc. Disclaimer: I haven't seen your hips. They could be God's gift to salseras everywhere for all the data I have. I will say that if you are really not moving your shoulders at all that sounds like it is really difficult to carry off, and might look awkward as well. I've never found that I thought a guy moved his hips too much per se. Some guys just move them awkwardly though, in a jerky or forced manner. So if that is you (and it might not be) I'd say too little movement is preferable to too much until you are comfortable with the motion and can produce it in a relaxed way.

[azzey]

Is there supposed to be shoulder motion in salsa?

Oh no MacMoto! Now you'll get him doing the gorilla dance..

[azzey]

Look, I think this will be much simpler if I just tell you want I want to hear:

Dancedude, that woman was completely out of her mind. I don't know what she thought she was dancing, but it sure wasn't salsa. Dancedude, you might as well have invented salsa. When I watched you dance, one friend exclaimed in amazement "that was awesome." My other friend corrected him: "no, it was outstanding." I simply shook my head, and said in a whisper, "no. It was ridiculous."

You're right DanceDude, how could I have missed it?

Dancedude, you ARE the new Johnny Vasquez!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vbYn9iJ7GM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbtirvl2blk

[quixotedlm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbtirvl2blk
This one was.... WOW!!!!

[Josh]

Is there supposed to be shoulder motion in salsa?

Yes. But like hips, don't overdo it.

[azzey]

Yes. But like hips, don't overdo it.

Josh, are you trying to put this de-railed train-wreck back on the tracks?!

[tj]

Josh, are you trying to put this de-railed train-wreck back on the tracks?!

Lol!

[dancin/dj]

dude just say your really ticked that someone offended you, all else is, well ,fill in the blank. i think it"s funny, how can people (really know) whats happening in your story, so much advise,one thing is for sure, something called being polite something many people lack today(dancers, teachers, pro"s and amatuers) if you want to know if you move your hips wrong or too much,its simple ask about 8 women and say 3 guys,people generally speaking should give you a accurate picture more so the ladies, forget teachers just ask reg people, teachers always try to put people in there system,everyone think"s the average joe/or judy knows nothing ,wrong, they know, as for the teaching while dancing, you already know the answer she ticked you off. cheers,

[noobster]

On a related note, a friend and I got some instruction from a bystander this evening. My friend was trying to work out a new pattern he'd learned when this dude in a gold chain and a James Brown wig steps in to help us out. I wasn't offended at first - thought he might have something good to say - but then he demo'ed something on me and he had a really rough, unpleasant lead. I was thinking, don't you dare teach my salsa buddy that lead! I've worked so hard on him to get his lead how I like it! :D

[thespina13]

Ugh. Ressurecting an old thread to complain about a lesson-giver. I've danced with him a bunch of times and never thought there was a problem. This time, during a bachata (which i desperately wanted to enjoy), he grabs my hips and tells me to stop wiggling them (which i wasn't.. who wiggles during a bachata??), and basically cemented me to him and tried to MAKE me move the "right way". Of course I was totally thrown off, esp since bachata happens to be a very favorite dance of mine and I've gotten lot of extremely favorable comments from partners, and I got really rather stiff and self conscious. Then at the end of the dance, he complains I was too stiff. THEN we try a salsa, and he started to nitpick on what my feet were doing and my body movement. I stopped dancing and said EXACTLY what this thread is titled "I want a dance, (goofball), not a lesson." And I further told him that if he wants to change the way I dance, or has something he'd like to have me practice, he ought to come over some time so we can practice together. Then he shakes his head and emphatically decrees that he never takes lessons, never will, and is totally against this notion of "practicing". Hah. Which validated me even further and I ceased to care about his opinion.

Still threw me way off though, and I sat out quite a number of dances. When I got back onto the floor, I was ot of sorts for like half the song until I got warmed up again and started dancing well, and with joy.

What is it with these people? I mean, to be fair, I've stopped a dance to work on timing that was so bad it was painful... so maybe I'm a hypocrite. BUt grabbing my hips and telling me what I've done for a longish time with great reviews is totally wrong is quite annoying and not very encouraging. Like, why does he think that's ok? Hello?

[Josh]

Then he shakes his head and emphatically decrees that he never takes lessons, never will, and is totally against this notion of "practicing". Hah. Which validated me even further and I ceased to care about his opinion.

:uplaugh:

"It's... in my blooooood... claaases? Hahahah... Maybe youuuu need classes.... but... you have to dance from your heart...."

Heard that before, from some of the worst dancers I've ever seen.

When I hear that, I'm like........ "next?"

[tj]

Ugh, that's awful, thespina! I hope you don't have to deal with the guy anymore.

[noobster]

I mean, to be fair, I've stopped a dance to work on timing that was so bad it was painful...

I don't know if timing can be taught per se. I mean, how can you teach someone to hear something he can't hear? Isn't that a bit like trying to teach a colorblind person the difference between red and green?

I suspect this is a problem that is most frequently cured by just listening to hours and hours of music, until the timing starts to sink into the subconscious. But for a stressed-out beginner to be given a lecture on the social floor? I doubt it's very useful.

I think the best thing one can do for a leader who is off time is try to gently backlead him into the beat... once, twice, maybe three times. If he well and truly can't hear it, well, my MO is to suck it up and follow him, painful though it may be. If I can't help him hear the beat, at least I can avoid making him miserable.

(The only time I've counted for someone is if he's specifically asked for it - as in, "pssst! help! where's the one?" - which happens occasionally and it is always a relief.)

[SalsaManiac]

(The only time I've counted for someone is if he's specifically asked for it - as in, "pssst! help! where's the one?" - which happens occasionally and it is always a relief.)

The fact that he even knows there is a 'one' means that he is light years ahead of some of the guys I've seen on the dance floor *chuckle*

[Sagitta]

:uplaugh:

"It's... in my blooooood... claaases? Hahahah... Maybe youuuu need classes.... but... you have to dance from your heart...."

Heard that before, from some of the worst dancers I've ever seen.

When I hear that, I'm like........ "next?"

Welll....hmmm...I wonder how bad I am then. ;-)

You do touch on a pet peeve of mind. Classes - I don't find many that teach about dancing, but most teach mechanics. I do say that classes don't really teach a person to dance. It can help you to get ready to go there, but dancing is what one finds out him/her self, it has to come from within. This is what dancing means for me.

[tj]

Welll....hmmm...I wonder how bad I am then. ;-)

You do touch on a pet peeve of mind. Classes - I don't find many that teach about dancing, but most teach mechanics. I do say that classes don't really teach a person to dance. It can help you to get ready to go there, but dancing is what one finds out him/her self, it has to come from within. This is what dancing means for me.

I agree that too many classes are the same, it seems. Nothing but patterns, technique, and mechanics.

However, this is a necessary step rather than just skipping ahead to "dancing from within". To skip that step and lead sloppily is to make your partner have to endure 3-5 minutes of awfulness.

Not saying that you're guilty of this, Sagitta, since you understand leading and following. Doesn't sound like thespina's partner knew what it's about.

[alb40]

:uplaugh:

"It's... in my blooooood... claaases? Hahahah... Maybe youuuu need classes.... but... you have to dance from your heart...."

Heard that before, from some of the worst dancers I've ever seen.

When I hear that, I'm like........ "next?"


Yep, these exact word were told to me on Friday night... and then he said, you dance good but you keep messing up las vueltas!! and then he would stop and tell me to watch him and do it. I was so glad when that dance was over.

[tj]

Yep, these exact word were told to me on Friday night... and then he said, you dance good but you keep messing up las vueltas!! and then he would stop and tell me to watch him and do it. I was so glad when that dance was over.


Welcome to DF, alb40!

[thespina13]

hahahha... I KNOW!!! Josh that was perfect. And alb40,isn't that infuriating?!?!

[Josh]

Welll....hmmm...I wonder how bad I am then. ;-)

Not at all Sagitta--you know the type I'm referring to... those who feel that dance training is for those with "common" blood.

[Sabor]

i want a lesson.. i wish she could tell me off..

if i make a mistake will i be punished .. i wonder?

[thespina13]

Can she be wearing stilettos and be carrying a leather belt?

[sweavo]

Guys! Right internet, wrong forum :-)

[Sabor]

hey sweavo, if the lady likes wearing stilletos and leather belt while dancing and telling her partner off.. why not eh..

[sweavo]

hey sweavo, if the lady likes wearing stilletos and leather belt while dancing and telling her partner off.. why not eh..

It's the way she's brandishing the belt that's got me scared!

[Sagitta]

Not at all Sagitta--you know the type I'm referring to... those who feel that dance training is for those with "common" blood.:p

I did take lessons for a while initially so I know that there is some utility in them...but unfortunately it is limited. :-( Just wish there was more of the "other" stuff...that's all...

[thespina13]

It's the way she's brandishing the belt that's got me scared!

Oh sweavo. No belt for you. No worries. Unless you start telling me I don't know how to use my heels on the dance floor in the middle of a social dance. Well then... fear the steely glint in my eye, and sting of leather!

Sorry. Wrong forum indeed. I always seem to forget where I am.

[azzey]

Sorry. Wrong forum indeed. I always seem to forget where I am.

Makes me wonder which other forum you're browsing while you're on here? Perhaps you could provide a link. ;) hehe.

[thespina13]

LoL... a woman's heart (and her browser's cache) is an ocean of secrets.

[azzey]

LoL... a woman's heart (and her browser's cache) is an ocean of secrets.

Time to go fishing... ;)

[thespina13]

Curiosity killed the cat :p