Prejudice amongst Salseros

[IsaacAltman]

Ther is a partiality that prevents objective consideration of a non Latino Salsero that permeates in the Salsa world. I know I have been subject to it and I have talked to others who also have experienced this outward prejudice. I would just like to hear of any others who have had this experience and what do you think about it?

[Danish Guy]

There’s not that many Latinos in the clubs here, that people think less about my salsa because I’m a white guy.

But I have noticed a embracing everything from Latinos, Cuba or New York. Style or no style.
I always look if the style or moves work, more then where it comes from.

[SDsalsaguy]

I've encountered little, if any, such prejudice here in San Diego…and we do have a large Latino population. The divide seems to be more between the flashy and the old school dancers, regardless of nationality and/or ethnicity.

[pygmalion]

Then there's in crowd /out crowd prejudice. But I've seen both insiders and outsiders of every possible racial background. And, come to think of it, I've also seen that same prejudice at ballroom dances, as well.

[SDsalsaguy]

Good point Jenn. Perhaps Latinos are given benefit of the doubt as insiders, but that only goes so far…extant social groups already have boundaries and, at least in scenes where the dancing comes before socializing, association and dancing itself provide the avenues to in crowd acceptance.

[youngsta]

I wouldn't say I've experienced any prejudice since I've been in the salsa scene, but what DOES happen is people assuming I am of Latino decent because of the way I dance. 90% of the people I meet think I'm Dominican or Cuban.

[SDsalsaguy]

I hear ya youngsta... I tend to get some surprised looks after I come of the floor and when people find out I'm in no way Latino.

[cowpaste]

I'm not yet confident enough to ask random women to dance yet, but I have been to a club once where I was the only Asian. That clubs was PACKED, and very big. There were a handful of blacks and whites, and one sole Asian. :) I got tons of stares...especially when I was dancing with my female friends. I usually don't mind being a minority, but the ONLY freaking one?!? The stares are extremely uncomfortable too. :(

[pygmalion]

Yeah, cowpaste, I've had similar experiences in other life situations as well. As an African-American female engineer, I've often been the "only one." And I think it's human nature to notice the "only ones." That happens both in salsa clubs and also in other circumstances. I also FEEL conspicuous when I'm the only one. And it's kinda hard to tell the difference between my own feelings and other people's prejudice.

That said, both in salsa clubs and in life, I've managed to overcome initial feelings/perceptions of uniqueness by just hanging in there a while. People do learn to accept and like you, in time, because people have far more in common than they have that's unique, IMHO.

[danceguy]

While I'm still very new to the Salsa scene in my area, I haven't noticed any types of racial prejudices when I've gone out dancing. Although I'm part Hispanic (Spain), I have no physical characteristics that mark me as so, and my knowledge of the language is very limited.

I have always had very close ties to Latino people, so part of the reason I enjoy learning Salsa is to learn more about the culture. At the venue I frequent the Latino folks are certainly the majority, but they are also very welcoming and kind which is what keeps me coming back.

The only time I've felt like a minority in dance is in regards to age. At every dance venue I've been to, the main crowd is late 30's to 50+, with a few teenagers or 20 year olds now and then. Being 29 myself, I rarely meet folks my own age at dances. Sometimes I'm the only person there under 40, and while it does make a bit uncomfortable at times, I always remind myself I'm there to have fun.

Besides, the folks that are older have been dancing a long time, and have a lot to share and teach us young un's. :)

[MadamSamba]

Yeah, I'd have to agree with the majority.

I've not experienced any prejudice whatsoever. I'm in Australia and while the salsa scene here does have a small Hispanic portion, it's a huge hotch-potch of many nationalities, a mix of caucasians, Indians, Chinese, Malays, Brits, Singaporeans, everything really.

It's interesting, being invovled in both salsa and ballroom, I find the exact opposite, Isaac, that dancers are a warm and welcoming bunch who generally only judge you on how you dance.

Perhaps you feel in the minority not being Hispanic, but I don't know the Florida salsa scene well enough to comment. If it helps any, here the most striking differentiations seem to be between experienced salseros/salseras and inexperienced ones and LA-style and Cuban style.

[peachexploration]

Yeah, cowpaste, I've had similar experiences in other life situations as well. As an African-American female engineer, I've often been the "only one." And I think it's human nature to notice the "only ones." That happens both in salsa clubs and also in other circumstances. I also FEEL conspicuous when I'm the only one. And it's kinda hard to tell the difference between my own feelings and other people's prejudice.

That said, both in salsa clubs and in life, I've managed to overcome initial feelings/perceptions of uniqueness by just hanging in there a while. People do learn to accept and like you, in time, because people have far more in common than they have that's unique, IMHO.

Same here Pygmalion. I get this :shock: :shock: :shock: alot when people find out I'm African-American lady who loves Salsa, Sushi, Classical Music and happens to be a computer administrator among other things considered not to be "stereotypical". :roll: It used to bother me too, but most times, I just walk in with a big 'ole smile and say hello to everyone and the ice breaks. :D :D :D

[DanceMentor]

I think prejudice is pretty evenly distributed. We should always encourage one another, and be careful not to make jokes that might be interpreted the wrong way. It's easy to be fooling around and before you know it, people think you are prejudiced.

For example, I have heard white people jokingly using the "N" word about black people and trying to make a joke out of it. While some people may laugh, others may be deeply offended, even if they don't say anything about it.

[pygmalion]

How did you know I'd check in one last time LOL? I can't resist responding to your post, DM.

I have a long history with issues of prejudice. I won't give my resume here, but I have spent about 15 years in the diversity/anti-prejudice field via volunteer work, because it's important to me.

And I learned a heck of a lot about people in the process. I really need to go, which is a good thing, because I could write a book.

One of the main things I learned is that, to some extent EVERYBODY is prejudiced, with the exception of very young and innocent children. Prejudice is just a set of assumptions based on what we've experienced or what we've been taught. Nothing wrong with prejudice in that sense.

And, while there are exceptions, most people are well-intentioned, kind people, who are pretty unaware of their own biases. Also nothing wrong with that.

The opportunity for prejudice to become hurtful comes when you mix people. Then the rubber hits the road, and people need to become willing to challenge their own set of beliefs. The good thing is that the opportunity cuts both ways. Bad things could happen, true, but good things could happen too.

Look at dance forums, for example. Here, you have people of every description -- young, medium, older. Every racial background. A long and growing list of nationalities. Different languages. Different dance disciplines. And this is one of the kindest, most warm and supportive places to be. Why? Because we all came with our prejudices, but were also willing to challenge them.

Not bad! 8) :D

[cowpaste]

One of the main things I learned is that, to some extent EVERYBODY is prejudiced, with the exception of very young and innocent children. Prejudice is just a set of assumptions based on what we've experienced or what we've been taught.

I have to totally agree with this. Take my mother for example. She was born in Thailand and moved to the United States in her twenties. She came with a clean "prejudice" state. That is, she grew up among Thais, so when she came to the States, she pretty much looked at everyone equally. Now she is 50+, and I can tell from talking with her that she has slight prejudices against blacks and hispanics. Why? Well, it's a simple matter of statistics and where we live. When she watched the news, she noticed that most of the crimes were commited by people of those races. Sad but true (I really hope I don't get flamed for this). So over the years, she has developed slight prejudices.

It's a bit different with Salsa prejudice. In the above example, it was pretty much a "innocent until proven guilty" thing. The situation Issac brought up is a "guilty until proven innocent" thing.

Poor, poor cow. :(

[tsb]

I'm not yet confident enough to ask random women to dance yet, but I have been to a club once where I was the only Asian. That clubs was PACKED, and very big. There were a handful of blacks and whites, and one sole Asian. (

speaking as someone of asian ancestry, when i first started doing salsa, i had latinas turn me down - AND immediately accept an invite from a latino for the same song. that was their perogative, but when the tables were turned after they'd watched me dance with someone else & they started hovering nearby hoping i'll ask them again, i admit to experiencing a great deal of satisfaction from asking every other woman near them to dance but not them.

i submit that the large percentage of 'street' dancers in salsa as well as the 'club' factor contributes to this type of experience; most dance teachers include basic dance etiquette & courtesies in their instruction.

in general, i enjoy 'club' dances, but not necessarily the venues where these dances are the primary dance.

[Sagitta]

The "club" atmosphere and street education so the latinas must see you prove yourself before they want to dance with you. It definitely happens. Unfortunately that's the way it is, but once you get that one "proving" dance in you can dance to your heart's content. :D

[salsachinita]

The divide seems to be more between the flashy and the old school dancers, regardless of nationality and/or ethnicity.

Yep, I agree with you there, SD. As MadamSamba said, in our town the divisions are mainly between LA/Cuban studios (that is, after the divisions between studio/street dancers).

These are DIVISIONS, not really prejudice though.

[salsachinita]

I usually don't mind being a minority, but the ONLY freaking one?!? The stares are extremely uncomfortable too. :(

I have been the one freaking one for YEARS, but absolutely LOVING it!

Think about it, once they get over the fact that you are actually there to DANCE (and learn), these people who stared would actually admire your courage and feel very honoured to have you in their midst :D !

And think about the celebrity status 8) ......! You are the only one! If you are good, you will stand out in a positive way.

THAT, my friend, is exactly how I earnt my nickname 8) . I wouldn't change it for the world!

[pygmalion]

Sad but true (I really hope I don't get flamed for this). So over the years, she has developed slight prejudices.


Hey cowpaste, hadn't you noticed? In Dance Forums, most people don't flame. They REASON lol! :lol: :lol:

[salsarhythms]

I wrote an article on here that had something to do with
this, and simply put...

We must learn to co-exist.

Period.

Yes, we all carry biases with us. But when it comes to
salsa dancing and the hispanic community, I think it's more
of what style you dance, or where you come from.

I mean, if you're Puerto Rican, but were raised in New York
and go back to Puerto Rico, you're looked down upon by
many of the people there...

The same goes for Mexicans, Cubans, Germans, Russians,
whatever...

It's in our nature.

Of course, there is prejudice, it's everywhere, but let's get
off this "holier than thou" crap and recognize that we all
do it or have done it at some point in our life.

Is it as simple as saying "get over it"? Well, you be the judge
of that one...

I personally move on from that and don't let it bother me, because
by complaining about it all I'm doing is playing into their game (by
"Them" I mean whoever is doing it).

One of the biggest things that stops us from doing what we want
to do is the fear of criticism, and it comes in many forms. If you
let the opinions of others to influence you, then you become a
person with no mind of your own...

That's not what you want...

Yes it is there, and yes it is an obstacle to overcome, but looking
at it with your head up high and proving yourself will yield much
better results than to try to change the whole world...

That's just my take. :-)

[d nice]

I'm not yet confident enough to ask random women to dance yet, but I have been to a club once where I was the only Asian. That clubs was PACKED, and very big. There were a handful of blacks and whites, and one sole Asian. :) I got tons of stares...especially when I was dancing with my female friends. I usually don't mind being a minority, but the ONLY freaking one?!? The stares are extremely uncomfortable too. :(

LOL.

Welcome to my world. Up until recently I was the only black person at most Swing (ECS, WCS, Lindy Hop etc.) venues, and often at workshops and competitions out where I live. WCS and ECS I can understand, that was really all about the bobby-soxers and the L.A. crowds back in the day, but Lindy Hop, a black dance is more than 80% white with a large number of asians in my area. We have three black people now that go out swing dancing once a week or more.

As to prejuidice, I have never experienced or seen the prejuidice spoken of in the first post by any latinos. Most seem to love the fact that so many other peoples are interested in this aspect of their culture. I have heard one negative comment said to a whiteguy by a girl, but then she was white herself and not a very good dancer... so... take that for what its worth.

Most of the "prejudice I've seen has been centered around the flashy upright styles most often associated with medal syllabus ballroom dancers executing competition style moves and shines on crowded floors. *shrug* I learned mambo/salsa from the Escovito family, I only know the earthy stuff so I can't really comment on how much was a style prejudice versus one of consideration and safety.

[cowpaste]

I have been the one freaking one for YEARS, but absolutely LOVING it!

Think about it, once they get over the fact that you are actually there to DANCE (and learn), these people who stared would actually admire your courage and feel very honoured to have you in their midst :D !

And think about the celebrity status 8) ......! You are the only one! If you are good, you will stand out in a positive way.

THAT, my friend, is exactly how I earnt my nickname 8) . I wouldn't change it for the world!

Heh, I would never want to be called "salsachinito." :)
Anyway, you must understand that as a girl, you face much less pressure and prejudice than a male. The male is traditionally the person who asks the girl to dance. He is the one that is rejected. If the girl accepts and his lead is poor, both male and female will look bad, and NOBODY will the dance the male for the rest of night (or for weeks, if the ladies recognize the male on a different night).

I've seen total beginner girls who learn how to follow beautifully just from clubbing a few times.
-----
Guy: "LET'S DANCE!"
Girl: "I DON'T KNOW HOW!"
Guy: "I'LL TEACH YOU!"
Girl: ..."OKAY!"
*Guy then teaches the basic to the girl. After a few songs, she can follow basic turns pretty well. She gets better and better after each song as guys try to dance slightly above her level.*
-----

However, I have never seen a male learn to lead this way. There is usually much instruction involved, whether is be from friends or parents or a dance instructor. Put yourself in my shoes....
-----
cow: *sits quietly watching, in awe, wishing he knew how to Salsa*
*some female friend comes over after seeing cow do nothing for so long*
Girl: "DO YOU WANT TO DANCE?!?"
cow: "I DON'T KNOW HOW!"
Girl: "I'LL TEACH YOU!"
cow: "COOL! THANKS!"
*Girl shows cow the basic. She then realizes that all she doesn't know how to teach turns. She stands there thinking for a very long time. After awhile, they both decide to just dance the basic. The song ends.*
cow: "THANKS FOR SHOWING ME THOSE STEPS!"
Girl: "SORRY I CAN'T TEACH MORE!"
cow: "IT'S OKAY...."
*The girl then goes off to dance with a latino, since she doesn't know what else to do and is, quite frankly, a bit bored.*
-----

This has happened to me a few times. A girl I know tries to teach me, and we don't get further than the basic. Everytime it happens, EVERYONE sees that I am a beginner, and therefore I am marked with the He Sucks™. Determined, I go take some Salsa classes. I go back to the clubs and realize that nobody here dances LA Style. They all do the Cumbia style Salsa that most natives do. Girls can follow my lead, but it is different and too formal for them. They don't like it. I am the only non-latino in the club who is trying to dance, and I don't do it the way they do. Girls look away from me as I walk past them....

I'm pretty sure the fact that I'm asian doesn't help either. People will almost always prefer to dance with people they find attractive. In general, non-Asian females do not find Asian males attractive. It is not a prejudice at all really, but just a preference. For instance, I'm normally not attracted to Viet Namese girls. There is no reason really; I'm just...not attracted, yet I have tons of Viet Namese friends.
I bet tons of people on this forum will want to scream, "No, that's totally not true!" It doesn't matter. I speak from experience, and in general, I find it MUCH, MUCH easier to attract Asian females. Maybe all this is just a characteristic of where I am located, but I really can't do much about that, now can I? Just think about: Pretend you are a girl in a Salsa club (most likely latina) whom is approached by two dancers. One is latino, and the other is Chino. You happen to know that both of them are good dancers. Also, both of them are handsome. Objectively, both are equal. People are subjective. You pick the latino. He is attractive to you, and he is latino. Salsa is a latin dance; it's "his" dance.

Of course, I know everything will be different when I become good, and the girls realize that. Sadly, I have a pretty damn big hurdle to overcome before I get there. Looks like I'll have to walk around. :(

*cow goes off to work on his leg muscles endurance.*

[borikensalsero]

Cowpaste
My man, you are putting too much pressure on yourself. You are thinking too much. Keep playing music at home and groove to the beat, soon you'll be shaking it like the latinos and the ladies will be saying, hey, here is the chino. Lets dance with him, he is good. :D

[Sagitta]

I just started doing salsa late summer/early Fall 2003 and so I am a raw beginner too. If people don't consider me much I still can vividly remember what I went through learning to dance salsa. (And even though I feel that this is irrelevant I am of Indian origin, and not many brown people dance, or even dance salsa where I am.):

Dancing is about having fun, dancing is about having fun, dancing is about having fun, dancing is about having fun, dancing is about having fun...even doing the basic can be enjoyable if done with the right attitude!! When I started out I did mostly the basic for quite a while. I had no problem getting dances even though I didn't know the people and this is the small town with the same people were there night after night.

As for the experience of learning one style of sasla and doing another... when I started learning salsa, I was learning it with breaking on three and people in the clubs mostly broke on 1. And that did not stop me!!

It is easy to think too much about it all and get yourself bogged down, but it needn't be that way. :D

[salsachinita]

They all do the Cumbia style Salsa that most natives do. Girls can follow my lead, but it is different and too formal for them. They don't like it. I am the only non-latino in the club who is trying to dance.

Yo bro, please tell me where such club STILL exist :shock: ! This is the EXACT environment where I grew up dancing; and I do miss it :wink: !

As to your 'guys have it tougher' factor, it is partly true that most of us girls who learnt to dance from this environment do not know the leads to teach guys (I face that issue all the time :roll: ), but there are at least some latinas who have more ideas then others....between a few of us (plus some guys we dance with), with a bit of time (away from clubs) of working moves out, you will pick up rather quickly.

There are some excellent advise here at the forum. Boriken & SalsaRhythms are by far the best guys to give advise (so plz read their posts)!

For now, just WATCH how people dance & ABSORB the sabor/flava around you. Listen & love the music. Relax & have fun.

As to your 'attraction' factor, these days in age it's not so clear-cut any more.....! I have personally dated people from different cultrual backgrounds (with only ONE Asian ever) & all my friends/family are dating/married to a different race.

At this rate, we are getting closer to creating a new identity/breed for the new millinium....hopfully via salsa 8) !

[cowpaste]

Yo bro, please tell me where such club STILL exist :shock: ! This is the EXACT environment where I grew up dancing; and I do miss it :wink: !


I live in Houston right now. It's kinda funny since Houston is quite diverse; however, all the clubs I've been to so far aren't so diverse. Maybe I just got "unlucky" somehow and went to certain clubs on nights were diversity was very low. There is a VERY big Mexican population here by the way, and it is very possible to get by speaking only Spanish. I guess that can be bad in a way, since there are a few native Spanish speakers who never learn English. On the other hand, it's so wonderful if you want to learn Spanish. :)

I just saw some video clips of clubs in LA. Wow, VERY mixed compared to what I see around here. There were old and young people, blacks, whites, Latinos, Asians...pretty much everything. Should I move there?...Never! That's the easy way out. I must stay here and defeat that stupid hurdle. Then I'll have something to brag about. :)

[Vince A]

What's the absolute definition of "salsero?"

[SDsalsaguy]

What's the absolute definition of "salsero?"
I don't know about an absolute definition Vince – I'll eave that to our resident wordsmiths – but, to me, a salsero is someone who doesn't just dance salsa, but lives it.

[borikensalsero]

What's the absolute definition of "salsero?"

Mambo, A.K.A, Salsa, Is a life style, the burning of the blood when the sound of the congas turns into a descarga. Where the clave is the echo to a beating heart. Whether fast or slow, new or old, the passion is always the same. Spending a day without it means the soul won’t be soothed on this day. A cry from el gallo, and un verano en Nueva York turn the darkest morning into the sunniest night. The perspiration from you and your other half is nothing but the expression left behind as mambo cools itself from within your bodies.

Salsero is he whose world is consumed by a lifestyle of mambo. The word “enough” salsa doesn’t have meaning but cause. Its cause is more salsa. Ten bucks for a new CD sure sound way better than ten for a starving body. The thought of dying is insignificant, for soon the soul will be allowed to forever seek the infinity of more salsa, which is ever so distant using the body.

The life of he who eats, drinks, sweats, speaks, reads, cries, laughs, listens to salsa and not he who dances it because they can, but because they love. It is he whose lifestyle won’t end when our ears stop hearing, our bodies moving, and our souls free. To me that is a Salsero, if you can relate, then my friend you too are a Salsero. You can pretty much sum it up as a lifestyle of passion for the music.

Imma have to be anal about this one for personal reasons, so I must say that it has copywrite. Even, if it really doesn't matter on the net.

[SDsalsaguy]

See? I told you oone of our wordsmiths would do a far, far better job! :wink:


Boriken . . . :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

[salsachinita]

Yep...... :notworth: x 100!

[Vince A]

Although some "new" words were introduced in the first paragraph . . . I believe I have the meaning of the word. Thanks . . . I've been seeing that word since I joined the DF, and now I know.

[SDsalsaguy]

Yeah, I guess it is one of those things that doesn't typically get defined . . . the difference between those who dance salsa and salsa dancers.

[youngsta]

Yes, that's me for sure brotha boriken!!

[brujo]

What's the absolute definition of "salsero?"

That would be the brother down at the Ragu factory who squashes tomatoes.

[brujo]

Ther is a partiality that prevents objective consideration of a non Latino Salsero that permeates in the Salsa world. I know I have been subject to it and I have talked to others who also have experienced this outward prejudice. I would just like to hear of any others who have had this experience and what do you think about it?

Let me check. Super Mario, he's from India. But that's close enough to latino. How about Josie Neglia, ooops, Italian descent from Toronto. But I'm sure they are not respected at all in the salsa world. Not at all.

This probably happens more in the states where there is more of a us vs. them mentality going on. I specially love the way latino salseros are all lumped together and labelled. Good job.

Could it be there are some people get off the plane and get discriminated for everything except their dancing? They realize it's cool to be like all latinos, short and brown ( like Ricky Martin, Shakira and Alberto Fujimori ). All the sudden, the salsa that only the poor people danced at home becomes an integral part of their identity. Changing the way salsa is danced is to desacrate the memories of dead grandmothers. And the dancers in the states are ok, but they don't dance with saboooooooor, the way the people do at home ( but we disguise it as top 40 from the US and subtly sneak it into our danceclubs ).

[latindia]

Let me check. Super Mario, he's from India. But that's close enough to latino. How about Josie Neglia, ooops, Italian descent from Toronto. But I'm sure they are not respected at all in the salsa world. Not at all.


Well, actually, as someone from India, I tend to get mistaken for Latino all the time. Until I try to speak, and ppl realize I don't speak spanish!

So far, my experience has been positive, haven't faced any significant discrimination, from latinas or others. Of course, I haven't really been to any of the 'real' salsa clubs much, as I am still a relative newbie. I think the more serious discrimination is reserved for whites and (possibly) asians, who look obviously 'different'.

[yola]

although i must admit i'm sometimes prejudiced as well :oops: (i try to not act on it), i find the most prejudiced are white people nót (yet) in the salsascene.
what do they primarily look for in a salsateacher: colour of the skin.
they think: as long as he/she is black or latino/a, he/she must be a born salsadancer and teacher. 'it's in their blood' they say. 'they're more rythmical' 'white folks can't dance' etc..

grrrrrrr!

as far as i know, the genes that determine rythmicallity and salsability are
notconnected to the genes of colour of skin!!

at the most it's a cultural advantage of growing up listening to salsamusic all the time and growing up in a environment where it's not frowned upon to move your body (especially for the men....)

[kdogg]

I'm Asian and so far I haven't faced any discrimination on the dance floor because I'm not a Latino. I don't feel I'm in the wrong skin to dance salsa. Music and dance should bring together people from all cultures and not divide them. We've way too many things that divide people groups or even the same group of people. I haven't paid much attention to how a Latino or a non-Latino dances; but I do pay attention to how a good salsa dancer dances.

[Sagitta]

I'm Asian and so far I haven't faced any discrimination on the dance floor because I'm not a Latino. I don't feel I'm in the wrong skin to dance salsa. Music and dance should bring together people from all cultures and not divide them. We've way too many things that divide people groups or even the same group of people. I haven't paid much attention to how a Latino or a non-Latino dances; but I do pay attention to how a good salsa dancer dances.

Some good words there kdogg. I'm Asian and have received no prejudice. Maybe in some cases it is more a matter of the kind of person who you are.

[TemptressToo]

I don't think I've been prejudiced. I've gotten many compliments on my dancing and many comments on why I'm so good and not Latin. I've been asked if I was "full white (which I find hysterical)."

I WILL say that the Latins in the club ARE prejudice toward other Latins (especially the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans against the Hondurans and Mexicans). I find that really strange to become accustomed to...

[dancin/dj]

For the record Jose neglia is italian yes and that means she"s latin-the very term latin comes from Italy all Italians/spanish speaking people/french/romanian/and portagese are latin. of course your using it in another context (i know) but sometimes people forget,there are people who mess up salsa with ther high brow ways etc ,but as salsaritmo said in a manner of speaking dont give those fools energy-that of course applys to not just salsa dancing-in time positive, up beat, growing people who love and embrace all races will come out ahead

[Neil]

I'm Asian and so far I haven't faced any discrimination on the dance floor because I'm not a Latino. I don't feel I'm in the wrong skin to dance salsa. Music and dance should bring together people from all cultures and not divide them. We've way too many things that divide people groups or even the same group of people. I haven't paid much attention to how a Latino or a non-Latino dances; but I do pay attention to how a good salsa dancer dances.

Some good words there kdogg. I'm Asian and have received no prejudice. Maybe in some cases it is more a matter of the kind of person who you are.

I agree. I'm also Asian and have never had the kind of problem Isaac mentioned. I've never even seen it in any salsa related activity.

I also agree that it's more a matter of the kind of person you are. Obviously, people who don't know you at all don't know your nationality. If they know you well enough to know your nationality, they might also know you well enough to have a personal problem with you.

In Isaac's case, I know I've heard rumbles from other Salseros locally and over the internet who have attended his convention or done other business with him and were not happy. I wont spread any unsubstantiated rumors here though.

An additional issue could be that they don't like Issac's style of salsa. He's a good dancer, but he dances what I call a Latin dancesport style from the ballroom world. I would be far more inclined to believe that there are salseros who have a prejudice against that style than against all non-hispanics, especially if he puts that style on a crowded social dance floor.

Re-reading Isaac's post. It sounds like he's talking specifically about getting low marks from judges in the Salsa world. I know that a lot of the local Salseros define Salsa in such a way that does not include the ballroom style. That might be the prejudice to which Issac refers. I think that the proliferation of Salsa congresses has exposed the most prominent local Salseros to other styles of Salsa and is leading to a liberalization of their attitudes. That should give Issac some cause for hope.

[brujo]

What a silly thread!

Reading it again made me realize that if you said anything here, you will just be showing your own prejudice.

If I said latinos don't like whiteys or chinitos, then that is my own biased opinion of latinos. Every latino is different, just like every white person, asian, black, russian, etc. is different.

If you have had one individual experience with a person, then the prejudice is held by that person and that person alone, it will be silly to generalize it to the whole group. Wouldn't it be silly if I was rejected by one white girl and say that all white girls are stuck up?

Latinos are great. Just like Asians are great. And whites are great. There is just that initial resistance that you might see when you first meet a person. If you get to know them, they are just like anyone else.

[elgrancombo]

I'm a blond (sort of) caucasian salsero, and I haven't encountered any prejudice in the scene. The few times I've encountered unfriendliness has been from those who were not accomplished dancers.
Those who are good dancers seem very open to non-Latin salseros, whether they be black, white, or Asian.

[africana]

what's the point of this thread? for those who *haven't* encountered prejudice? or to ridicule those who say they have? And to what end?

if you haven't encountered it dont go around looking for it! and while you're at it just thank god that your life is a little happier than others who might have and do your best to check discriminatory behavior wherever you may go

-Amen-
:?

[tacad]

Well said.

[Sabor]

what's the point of this thread?

well.. what's the point of most threads?

[Sagitta]

what's the point of this thread?

well.. what's the point of most threads?

To wear something? I think I look buutiful in my birthday suit, but most of the people I interact with everyday wouldn't be so happy methinks.

[DancingMommy]

I wouldn't say I've experienced any prejudice since I've been in the salsa scene, but what DOES happen is people assuming I am of Latino decent because of the way I dance. 90% of the people I meet think I'm Dominican or Cuban.

I've BTDT, too. What's up with that?

[tj]

I thought the point of most threads was for Sabor to flirt with the ladies?

...or at least have the ladies talk about his green socks.

[DancingMommy]

I'm pretty sure the fact that I'm asian doesn't help either. People will almost always prefer to dance with people they find attractive. In general, non-Asian females do not find Asian males attractive. It is not a prejudice at all really, but just a preference. For instance, I'm normally not attracted to Viet Namese girls. There is no reason really; I'm just...not attracted, yet I have tons of Viet Namese friends.


cp - I feel for you. My husband is Indonesian (immigrant style, not AB) and we get more than a few stares when we go out - especially to C/W places. I fit in more or less, but well, he just ain't from around here, lol. Keep your chin up. Things will get better. And for the record, wome of us white girls really *do* like Asian guys. ;)

[Sagitta]

The white and other girls like me. :) I think I'm gonna check my toe out dancing a little bit tonight....

[tacad]

what's the point of this thread?

well.. what's the point of most threads?

To wear something? I think I look buutiful in my birthday suit, but most of the people I interact with everyday wouldn't be so happy methinks.
:doh:

[Neil]

I'm pretty sure the fact that I'm asian doesn't help either. People will almost always prefer to dance with people they find attractive. In general, non-Asian females do not find Asian males attractive. It is not a prejudice at all really, but just a preference. For instance, I'm normally not attracted to Viet Namese girls. There is no reason really; I'm just...not attracted, yet I have tons of Viet Namese friends.


cp - I feel for you. My husband is Indonesian (immigrant style, not AB) and we get more than a few stares when we go out - especially to C/W places. I fit in more or less, but well, he just ain't from around here, lol. Keep your chin up. Things will get better. And for the record, wome of us white girls really *do* like Asian guys. ;)

I have to agree with cowpaste. I'm also Asian and I've only met two western women in my entire life (I'm 41 years old) who said they were attracted to Asian men... and I married the first one I met. On the other hand, I've heard a lot of caucasian men say that they are attracted to Asian women.

By the way, it's funny how many Asians are in this forum.

[DancingMommy]

My husband says it's that stereotype that all Asian women are freaky in bed.... He says that the white guys get all excited and then find out the truth too late.

He also swore he'd never date another Asian girl after his fiancee cheated on him, ripped his heart out and stomped that sucker flat.

What's not to like about Asian guys? See the problem is that well.... People read too much Cosmo. There's more to life than WonderBread. :lol:

And we are the exception rather than the rule, here, too. ;) I think I've seen maybe one other couple when we go out that is like us AM/WF. Usually it's the other way 'round. We actually get a kick out of doing covert demographic studies, lol. :)

[Sagitta]

Usually the othe way around? Couple of my lady frieds (white) like Asian men...I actually know quite a few who do. Interesting...I guess as an Asian male I get all the chicks who dig Asian dudes. I should probably pay attention and see how many don't...but then I often am mistaken for a Latino...and am usually dancing...

Oh, but I have to rest my foot now. hmmm...a research project to keep me occupied. :)

[TemptressToo]

I've got several Asian male friends. I just wouldn't date any of them. I'm not really attracted to them, that is all...

Now Latin guys...that's a different story...especially the very hot Dominican I sometimes dance with...with green eyes.

In truth, I'm married now, so I'll not date ever again. I am just stating an opinion IF I stepped back...

[DancingMommy]

TT -

I use to be attracted to Latinos. Heh. But something just clicked for me.... ;)

[Neil]

My husband says it's that stereotype that all Asian women are freaky in bed....

I've never heard that stereotype. I've heard many guys who think that most Asian women make good wives because they are more submissive than American women. That might be true until they become Americanized.

We've gotten a little off of the original topic of this thread, which was an American Salsa competitor who felt his low marks reflected a bias among Salseros against non-hispanics. Even though his original post is now years old, it seems timely now in light of the results of last weekend's Puerto Rican Salsa Congress.

My response to the original post was that the bias was against his style of Salsa (ballroom) rather than his nationality. Does anybody here have any inside information on what happened in PR? Was it judges voting for their local friend? Was it a matter of style? Nationality?

[Kali Ma]

I have to agree with cowpaste. I'm also Asian and I've only met two western women in my entire life (I'm 41 years old) who said they were attracted to Asian men... and I married the first one I met. On the other hand, I've heard a lot of caucasian men say that they are attracted to Asian women.

By the way, it's funny how many Asians are in this forum.

Hmmm...I'm a "western" woman, and you look pretty darn cute to me (may I reiterate: Looking kinda HOT there, guy!). As handsome Asian men have never been excluded from my 'list' :raisebro:, I can only asume that many of the women you've dealt with have been blind and/or tragically limited. But, you seem to be referring to Caucasian women as the source of your woes, so I guess I'm kinda out of the running. :lol:

[latindia]

I had this wierd experience in this respect last week.

I was at this latin bar: they have a live band and open the floor every thursday night. There are a lot of good dancers, lots of beginners and lots of guys standing around trying to pick up women, and lots of girls wanting to be picked up. That kinda place.

I was looking for someone to dance with and saw these 3 black women standing in a corner. They were very pretty, but obviously had no idea of salsa. Soon enough, they got snapped up by 3 guys (including myself).

I had a couple of dances with one girl. She picked up the salsa basic quickly enough and seemed to have a good time dancing. After I while I found myself partnerless again and found her with her group, so asked her to dance again.

(Background: I'm from India, lived in the US for about 5 years. I get mistaken a lot for black or Latino, depending on circumstances. Been salsa dancing for 4-5 months now, so I guess I'm a slightly experienced beginner)

This time while dancing I noticed she was not enjoying it, seemed to be looking at her friends again and again. I tried to make her comfortable...didn't work. Anyway, then we have this conversation on the floor:

she: are you black?
me: What? (I wasn't sure what she said)
she: are you black or latino?
me(deciding to be difficult): what do u mean?
she: what's your skin color?
me(more annoyed): brown
she: NO!! I didn't mean that!!! What nationality are you?
me: Indian
she: oh, I gotta go back to my friends.
And she just walks off to her friends in the middle of the dance.

Any thoughts? I was really pi$$ed and puzzled at this experience. What's going on here?

Thanks
Raj

[MacMoto]

Any thoughts? I was really pi$$ed and puzzled at this experience. What's going on here?

You say the women obviously had no idea of salsa, so perhaps they were just normal :roll: club goers, not looking for a salsa fix but simply looking for hot males to pair off with later, or even potential dating material. You know, in the non-salsa night club world, dancing is considered a mating ritual... :roll: :lol: Obviously the girl only wanted to mate with black men.

[alemana]

sounds like plain garden-variety prejuidice to me.

[BrookeErin]

Any thoughts? I was really pi$$ed and puzzled at this experience. What's going on here?

You say the women obviously had no idea of salsa, so perhaps they were just normal :roll: club goers, not looking for a salsa fix but simply looking for hot males to pair off with later, or even potential dating material. You know, in the non-salsa night club world, dancing is considered a mating ritual... :roll: :lol: Obviously the girl only wanted to mate with black men.

seems most likely to me... it's not dancing prejudice... just dating prejudice

[latindia]

You say the women obviously had no idea of salsa, so perhaps they were just normal :roll: club goers, not looking for a salsa fix but simply looking for hot males to pair off with later


Excuse me, are you suggesting that I don't count as a 'hot male'? Grrrr :evil:

Hmmm...looks like I'll just have to stay away from 'normal' :roll: women then :lol:

Thanks for your responses. I think I understand the situation better now. Can't let those stupid chicks get my dance mojo down, can I???? :)

[alemana]

not a fan of the derogatory "chick" but yes, you're right, don't let those stupid people get you down. keep dancing.

[africana]

dating or dancing prejudice, they all mix together in the salsa world, and some races/genders experience more than others, and based on the particular scene's norms.

but there are ways around it, you'll live

[latindia]

not a fan of the derogatory "chick" but yes, you're right, don't let those stupid people get you down. keep dancing.

Oh, please, Alemana. Indulge me this time. Someone like that deserves a lot worse. :twisted:

Thanks for your encouragement. Will keep dancing and will be happy :D

R

[alemana]

i always experience those sorts of terms as a slap in my own face, so sorry, no indulgence, but i do understand your frustration :)

[latindia]

i always experience those sorts of terms as a slap in my own face, so sorry, no indulgence, but i do understand your frustration :)

And I understand yours. I assure you I do not use terms like that lightly. No offence directed to you or the rest of womankind.

Thanks for listening, you guys rock :D

[DancingMommy]

You say the women obviously had no idea of salsa, so perhaps they were just normal :roll: club goers, not looking for a salsa fix but simply looking for hot males to pair off with later


Excuse me, are you suggesting that I don't count as a 'hot male'? Grrrr :evil:

Hmmm...looks like I'll just have to stay away from 'normal' :roll: women then :lol:

Thanks for your responses. I think I understand the situation better now. Can't let those stupid chicks get my dance mojo down, can I???? :)

Nil illegitimendi carborundum (or at least that is what my daddy told me once). ;)

[David]

In most places in Sydney I've noticed very little racially based prejudice on the dance floor. With Sydney being as culturally diverse as it is there are lots of people in the salsa scene from all sorts of different ethnic backgrounds. Caucasians (White-ies in general (such as I)), Asians (meaning the entire Asian continent rather than just eastern "Asia"), "Latinos" (Mediterranean and South American)... and no shortage of others who don't necessarily fit in to one of those "umbrella categories". And just about every body will dance with just about every body.

And the dating mix is just as diverse, especially within the salsa scene. Just about every body will date just about every body. For my self... the colour of a girls' skin is probably the least important thing I can think of when it comes to that :D

[kdogg]

In most places in Sydney I've noticed very little racially based prejudice on the dance floor. With Sydney being as culturally diverse as it is there are lots of people in the salsa scene from all sorts of different ethnic backgrounds. Caucasians (White-ies in general (such as I)), Asians (meaning the entire Asian continent rather than just eastern "Asia"), "Latinos" (Mediterranean and South American)... and no shortage of others who don't necessarily fit in to one of those "umbrella categories". And just about every body will dance with just about every body.

And the dating mix is just as diverse, especially within the salsa scene. Just about every body will date just about every body. For my self... the colour of a girls' skin is probably the least important thing I can think of when it comes to that :D

Thats a place to be. May be I ought to move out there and become an Aussie :wink: .

[africana]

I second that! (if it's true)

[tacad]

I was thinking the same thing.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hmmmm, might there be some interest in reviving THE PLAN? :raisebro:

[africana]

Hmmmm, might there be some interest in reviving THE PLAN? :raisebro: hahaah with salsachinita? where's she these days?

[salsachinita]

:bouncy: Right here....!!!!!

Yay! The PLAN 8) ...........

[SDsalsaguy]

:bouncy: Right here....!!!!!

Yay! The PLAN 8) ...........
WOO HOO!!! salsachinita's back!!! :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

[africana]

:bouncy: Right here....!!!!!

Yay! The PLAN 8) ...........
WOO HOO!!! salsachinita's back!!! :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: wow like a genie :D we called and she appeared :lol:

[salsachinita]

WOO HOO!!! salsachinita's back!!! :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

8) Yep. I'm at a new job where the occasional glance at the internet is allowed....... :D !!!!!!!

So, The PLAN is still going :wink: ......?

[SDsalsaguy]

So, The PLAN is still going :wink: ......?
It had recentlt resurfaced... and then so did you! Tis fate me thinks! :wink:

[ash88]

In most places in Sydney I've noticed very little racially based prejudice on the dance floor. With Sydney being as culturally diverse as it is there are lots of people in the salsa scene from all sorts of different ethnic backgrounds. Caucasians (White-ies in general (such as I)), Asians (meaning the entire Asian continent rather than just eastern "Asia"), "Latinos" (Mediterranean and South American)... and no shortage of others who don't necessarily fit in to one of those "umbrella categories". And just about every body will dance with just about every body.

And the dating mix is just as diverse, especially within the salsa scene. Just about every body will date just about every body. For my self... the colour of a girls' skin is probably the least important thing I can think of when it comes to that :D

I'm also from Sydney, and i tells ya, it is the place to be. Everyone dances with everybody. Dancing discrimination based on appearances is absolutely stupid: i've danced with very large women who are light as air to lead, and people from all over the world who dance wonderfully no matter where they were born.

[MacMoto]

You say the women obviously had no idea of salsa, so perhaps they were just normal :roll: club goers, not looking for a salsa fix but simply looking for hot males to pair off with later


Excuse me, are you suggesting that I don't count as a 'hot male'? Grrrr :evil:

Hmmm...looks like I'll just have to stay away from 'normal' :roll: women then :lol:

Thanks for your responses. I think I understand the situation better now. Can't let those stupid chicks get my dance mojo down, can I???? :)
I was actually suggesting that the woman must have thought you were a hot male -- until she realised you weren't as black as she first thought. :roll: Silly woman.

Yes forget "normal" women and dance with salseras! :lol: :roll: :lol:


8) Yep. I'm at a new job where the occasional glance at the internet is allowed....... :D !!!!!!!
Good to see you back, sista! 8)

[Danish Guy]

Re-reading Isaac's post. It sounds like he's talking specifically about getting low marks from judges in the Salsa world. I know that a lot of the local Salseros define Salsa in such a way that does not include the ballroom style. That might be the prejudice to which Issac refers.

Re-reading it again I think you are right on.

What I have seen of competitions on video so far, I don’t especially like. And it seems the applause goes to all the things I really don’t like in salsa. Lifts, aerials, long syncopated shine series, over styled arms and dangerous dips.

I enjoy much more a couple that dance together on a social dance floor.

As for competition goes, the Jack & Jill concept works.

[salsachinita]

So, The PLAN is still going :wink: ......?
It had recentlt resurfaced... and then so did you! Tis fate me thinks! :wink:

:cheers: Excellent........!!!!!!!

[mambochino]

I wouldn't say I've experienced any prejudice since I've been in the salsa scene, but what DOES happen is people assuming I am of Latino decent because of the way I dance. 90% of the people I meet think I'm Dominican or Cuban.

wait till they witness a chinaman can wiggle and move! :lol:

[latindia]

I was actually suggesting that the woman must have thought you were a hot male -- until she realised you weren't as black as she first thought. :roll: Silly woman.


Ha ha ha!!! You're awesome, MacMoto :applause:

You totally soothed my ruffled feathers with that one. As Karmic reward for your nice words, you shall get amazing dance partners every night for the next 5 years!!!

And now I can happily go out dancing again tonight...

:banana:
Raj

[MacMoto]

Ooooh thanks :kissme:

[Neil]

Nil illegitimendi carborundum (or at least that is what my daddy told me once). ;)

What does that mean? I googled it, but got zero hits.

[DancingMommy]

Old Latin for "don't let the <insert scatalogical term for illegitimate child here> get you down". At least that's what my dad told me many moons ago. But then I don't know how much he paid attention in Latin when he was on high school. ;)

[Sagitta]

Nil illegitimendi carborundum (or at least that is what my daddy told me once). ;)

What does that mean? I googled it, but got zero hits.

I've written that one down. I know just the person to use that on. :twisted:

[kdogg]

Old Latin for "don't let the <insert scatalogical term for illegitimate child here> get you down". At least that's what my dad told me many moons ago. But then I don't know how much he paid attention in Latin when he was on high school. ;)

Wow, the planet you live in must have many moons :lol: :lol: .

[chachachacat]

I hear ya youngsta... I tend to get some surprised looks after I come off the floor and when people find out I'm in no way Latino.
Students in my group classes used to say, "Are you SURE you're not Hispanic?" I answer, "No, but I AM half Italian!" Cha-cha-cha (CCCCat turns sharply with half spots and skirt swishing. :twisted: Yow!)

[chachachacat]

although i must admit i'm sometimes prejudiced as well :oops: (i try to not act on it), i find the most prejudiced are white people nót (yet) in the salsascene.
what do they primarily look for in a salsateacher: colour of the skin.
they think: as long as he/she is black or latino/a, he/she must be a born salsadancer and teacher. 'it's in their blood' they say. 'they're more rythmical' 'white folks can't dance' etc..

grrrrrrr!

as far as i know, the genes that determine rythmicallity and salsability are
notconnected to the genes of colour of skin!!

at the most it's a cultural advantage of growing up listening to salsamusic all the time and growing up in a environment where it's not frowned upon to move your body (especially for the men....)
Thank you! Good point, and well said!

[chachachacat]

For the record Jose neglia is italian yes and that means she"s latin-the very term latin comes from Italy all Italians/spanish speaking people/french/romanian/and portagese are latin. of course your using it in another context (i know) but sometimes people forget,there are people who mess up salsa with ther high brow ways etc ,but as salsaritmo said in a manner of speaking dont give those fools energy-that of course applys to not just salsa dancing-in time positive, up beat, growing people who love and embrace all races will come out ahead
Aha!! I AM Latin!!!
*Stomping flamenco skirt swishing, head throwing about, and such.*
Bene, bene!

[chachachacat]

Old Latin for "don't let the <insert scatalogical term for illegitimate child here> get you down". At least that's what my dad told me many moons ago. But then I don't know how much he paid attention in Latin when he was on high school. ;)
It is indeed Latin, and I got a chuckle out of it. I had to take 3 years of Latin at my college-prep high school! I liked years one and two okay, very useful, but third year, translating Cicero and Virgil and Caesar, and all that war jazz wasn't fun at all! :P :nope:
My third year Latin teacher also had a droning monotone that would put anybody to sleep!