From the Feet Up?

[pygmalion]

This came up in another thread a few days ago, and I think it's worth discussing on its own. What do you think? When teaching/learning to dance, which is the best approach to take? Teach from the feet up (i.e. learn some basic patterns and add the rest later)? Is there some other approach that works better? Is it different by dance type?

[dancersdreamland]

I personally prefer learning feetwork and patterns first and then adding in stylization. Although, styling critique along the way does make it easier once the feetwork is firmly planted in my memory.

[KevinL]

I teach from the floor up, or patterns, depending on how you want to look at it. In my opinion most people don't want to invest the time and energy required to learn good technique the first time (day, month, several years) they take a dance class. They want to learn to move with a partner, and don't care that they don't "really" know how to dance.

However, once someone gets addicted to dance, or once they express an interest in technique, then I'm all over sharing every little thing I know. I just don't do that at first because it would overwhelm them!

[SDsalsaguy]

Although not how Jenn meant it, there's also a very technical school of thought that dance should literally be taught from the feet up – meaning that footwork and use get taught first as the fundamentals, then comes ankle usage, then knees, then hips, etc., all the way up.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I bet if will35 or another Argentine tango person posts in this thread, they'll disagree pretty dramatically. Feet up is one approach, but there are others.

[SDsalsaguy]

I never said this was the only way to go or that it was the one I subscribed to . . . just that there was a school of thought to such effect! :wink:

[MadamSamba]

I think it depends very much on how you think and learn. I'm totally dumb when it comes to dance steps. I have to see them very clearly in my mind and need to understand them perfectly before I can even think of technique or styling. If I don't fully understand the footwork, I don't even dare think of such complicated things as breathing and blinking. ;)

I often have teachers kindly advise, "do this with your arms" or "try this when you're turning" and my reply is a bamboozled, very exasperated whinge: "but I can't multitask until I know the steps"!! But that might just be little old me! :()

[SwinginBoo]

There might be some people who don't need to learn "feet up", but I would imagine (having taught some people) that they start off feeling a little uncomfortable. They immediately want to know what to do with their feet and I think it's a good place to start. It's something that is factual and will be used throughout the dance. Once they build confidence in their basic pattern the rest can either be taught or improvised. This is not to say that I don't think anything but a basic pattern should be taught. Connection and lead/follow should always be taught in addition to feet patterns. They are also at the heart of learning to dance.

[hopelessly_addicted]

Although not how Jenn meant it, there's also a very technical school of thought that dance should literally be taught from the feet up – meaning that footwork and use get taught first as the fundamentals, then comes ankle usage, then knees, then hips, etc., all the way up.

could anyone give an example of how ankles can be used for salsa or ballroom? I don't often hear about the role of ankle as much as that of feet/knees/hips.... obviously ankle's important for balancing, etc, but how is it used to execute certain moves?

[Chris Stratton]

Teaching from the feet up is a common idea, but to do it effectively I think things would have to be explained in terms of the foot you are pushing off of, rather than the one you are preparing to step onto.

Think about it this way: a partner can't really feel with much accuracy what you are doing with your free leg. But they can most certainly feel if you use your standing leg to start to send your body in some direction. So use your standing leg to send both bodies in the right direction, and both free legs will automatically follow.

[blue]

When teaching/learning to dance, which is the best approach to take? Teach from the feet up (i.e. learn some basic patterns and add the rest later)? Is there some other approach that works better? Is it different by dance type?

I suppose someone already said this: I don't suppose there is a method that works for everyone. Personally, I hate it when I am not given a chance to make the move/steg/whatever feel good. I never understood lindy charleston until I got my arms swinging - but my first round of teachers did not emphasis this at all. They thought the steps were more important. I do not understand how you can dance with only your lower body...

I think there is a difference also what is best for a student who is new to partner dancing, and what someone who is already pretty good in another type of dance needs. I have taken beginner classes that were extremely lead/follow-focussed and taught very few moves - I loved them! They gave me the time to feel the details of what I was actually doing, and how the interaction with my partner worked. Quite possibly the average beginner can not feel this anyhow - I am quite sure it is my aikido experience that shows. The beginner who is good in other kinds of dances will probably be bored with these classes - they taught the elementa of partner dancing per se, and those he or she already knows.

I don't know if it is different in different dances or not, but I like when you start with posture. Posture and, in the case of lindy, bounce. How you move your body. What part of the foot first touches the floor. In the beginner class I mentioned, we practiced this + basic steps for almost a full two classes (one without triple steps, the next one with triple steps). Quite possibly some people found it boring, I don't know, but when you come to more comples moves if you have not engrained the posture in your body you will loose it the moment you feel confused about your steps. People who took this beginner's course after first having taken a beginner's course someplace else, generally looked less good at the end of the course than those who had never done lindy before. Posture is a habit that is difficult to change, once you've gotten a habit. I know some people who took a weekend "fast beginners" course in boogie woogie who were frustrated the first day spending so much time practising basic footwork, but they were very happy about the course after the second day.

I love it when steps are taught first as "using the basic steps to move in a certain way" (like, from open position getting into closed position while circling around each other) and only after you've done that a couple of times, you refine the steps by telling what foot is put behind or in front of the other. It's like, first you tell'em whatcha gonna tell'em... doing steps on my own when I don't know yet the point of the step is training that makes me confused. Indeed, when I get the move working I quickly forget what foot is behind which one and has to do the move slowly if I want to analyse what I am doing.

[dancin_feet]

I often have teachers kindly advise, "do this with your arms" or "try this when you're turning" and my reply is a bamboozled, very exasperated whinge: "but I can't multitask until I know the steps"!! But that might just be little old me! :()

I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes my instructor will try to teach me figures and arms at the same time. I just tell him he is overloading my poor little brain because until the footwork is well known, if I try to add arms, my feet forget where to go!! :lol:

Definitely feet up for me!

[SDsalsaguy]

Definitely feet up for me!
Must be why your DF alias is dancin_feet, huh? :lol:

[tacad]

:doh:

[dancin_feet]

Definitely feet up for me!
Must be why your DF alias is dancin_feet, huh? :lol:

:uplaugh:

[cocodrilo]

For salsa, I would definitely say from the feet up. That's how I was taught. Feet first, then hips! Worry about the arm movements and hair-flipping later on, when you've got all the important stuff down first!

[Flat Shoes]

I totally agree with Blue. Body and out. Both when learning a dance, and when learning new patterns.

For me, the essence of a move/pattern/dance is the body and frame. The connection between two bodies through the frame.

For dances where there is a basic step, this of course has to be worked on. BW, as blue mentions, is a good exmaple since in BW the footwork is an important definition of the dance and feel. For Lindy, the bouncy in the body is more important end defining.

When learning a new pattern, start with the feel, and the way the body moves. When I know the feeling of the pattern, I can adjust my feet to do whatever is necessary. The feet is secondary. They're supporting actors. They can enhance the experience, and sometimes they are necessary for the flow, but in general they're playing a secondary role.

The feets job is not to move the body. The body is moving, and the feets job is to support and keep themselves underneath the body and keep it from falling down on the floor. All using the basic footwork of the dance in question. Styling, wether it's arm or feet, fancy footwork and syncopations, this all comes later.

I've been to classes where, when learning a new pattern, we initially were sepparated. Girls on one side, boys on the other. Then we stepped through the footwork for some time, before joining together again. Horrible! (Thankfully, I've never encountered this in Lindy. This was a ballroom class, and a 6 count swing course)

Walking through steps without a partner doens't feel like dancing at all. Since I've never done the pattern in question, I have nothing to relate the steps to. And they become meaningless shambling. When I finally get to my partner, that's when I can start learning the pattern, for real. With my partner is were I can get the feeling for the pattern.

Partner-dancing is two bodies connected. It is this connection that is important, and it's from here dancing should be thought. From the center, not from the extremeties.

[blue]

Well said, Flat Shoes. (look how nicely we pat each other's backs here. ;) Could it be that we are lindy people?)

I think it can be OK to train your steps separated, to get the movement into your body and your memory - but not as your first encounter with the move.

[Flat Shoes]

Well said, Flat Shoes. (look how nicely we pat each other's backs here. ;) Could it be that we are lindy people?)

There's not enough of our kind in the world! :lol:


I think it can be OK to train your steps separated, to get the movement into your body and your memory - but not as your first encounter with the move.

Yes, in some situations. Mainly for beginners, but also for some special or ekstra difficult patterns. And of course when learning alternative footwork. An iterative approach are sometimes useful too. There are no rules without exceptions.

[heartgrl2k]

I think I feel similarly as to most of the posts already.

I've taken a lot of WCS courses where you are learning from the feet up - patterns, etc. But when really dancing (socially) to me this is of less benefit than knowing how to interpret the lead. I'm never thinking "Oh, he's leading X move," if it's a good lead, and you've got good frame, you're going to do the pattern anyway.

That being said, I do like taking classes where they show you variations on basic footwork. That is LOTS of fun, and so is the look you get from your partner when trying it out on the dance floor!

[tacad]

Definitely feet up for me!
Must be why your DF alias is dancin_feet, huh? :lol:

:uplaugh:
SD stays up so late thinking about good jokes like this! :lol:

[tacad]

I like being told how to move. If I am only told steps I just feel like a clutz out there. I also suspect it has to be this way in lindy hop (blue mentioned lindy hop). I took a class for a while. I don't see how you could just do the steps without being told how to do the steps. I think you actually have to know something in order to do lindy hop. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. The class was only 3 months but the instructor was excellent.)

[DancePoet]

When I was very new, just learning the steps was very important, and also how to lead the patterns. At the same time, the instructor would work on basic frame and posture issues which also helped greatly. I am glad I had a combination of these issues in my early instruction.

[tacad]

Actually, now that you mention it, during that time I went to a second instructor for a brief time who was technically pretty good and taught me about frame. I agree. This was invaluable, and became the model I followed even until this day.

[Sabor]

i go kinda diagonal myself... left toe to right eye then left eye to right toe.

[Pacion]

i go kinda diagonal myself... left toe to right eye then left eye to right toe.
:shock: You must be one of those guys on the dancefloor who wears sunglasses then :tongue: :lol:

Getting back on topic, I think in terms of salsa, it depends. I started with cuban and the teacher, which I think was fairly unique to him, would teach the pattern to merengue. Therefore, the guy would learn the hand and as a couple, you would learn the body directions you were to take. Once he could see that we were comfortable with the move, he would then show us the feet, on salsa timing.

I say that I think it was unique to him in that I haven't come across anyone else who taught the beginner/intermediate class like this. With crossbody, that is a technique (merengue first and then salsa) that may be more limited in how it works as crossbody has fewer hand patterns (I think) at the beginner stages.

When I did other styles of dance, it was feet first and then arms, styling including facial expression :lol: etc