What is backleading? [Archive]

ballroomboilergirl

01-03-2004, 02:50 PM

Oh dear, I believe I am about to open up a proverbial can of worms, but I feel this is worth talking about...

Backleading is basically when a follower (woman) either "pushes" or "pulls" the leader (man) into a move, rather than letting him "push" or "pull" her into it. This can be done a number of ways...sometimes the follower will anticipate a step back and will take it before it is really lead, resulting in the leader then having to take the step as well, whether he had planned to lead the step or not; sometimes the follower will raise both her and her partner's arm prematurely to do an underarm turn; sometimes a follower will simply "resist" a lead and do something else because they think it is "wrong" or "off-time", resulting in the leader then having to compromise; often a follower can't quite pick up on a weak lead and will interpret it as she sees fit. As you can see, the definition of backleading is rather vague...the best thing I can think of to further define it is "any time when the follower stops being passive/submissive and starts being aggressive/dominant".

I think it goes without saying that backleading is NOT a good thing at all. And its an EXTREMELY hard habit to break. Unfortunately, there are two very talented girls on my team that backlead. One of them is a fellow beginner who has been dancing salsa all her life and decided to take up ballroom this year...I think she has the most natural talent of anyone on the team, but her partner, who has never danced before in his life, often has a hard time keeping up with her, and rather than slow down to stay at his level, she backleads him. As a result, he has never learned to properly lead and weakly leads girls who know how to properly follow, and she never learned how to properly follow and any of the other guys who try to dance with her have to practically force her into any move they try to lead. Thus, they (and others) find it hard for them to dance with anyone but each other. One of the advanced girls on the team had a similar problem when she was a beginner: her partner was a weak leader, and rather than helping him to learn how to properly lead, she backlead him, and she has never broken the habit. Now she is hard to lead and many of the guys on the team don't like to dance with her, which is unfortunate because she DOES have a lot of natural talent :(

As I have said before, I am not perfect: I too am guilty of backleading every now and then. Its not right and it doesn't do myself or my partner any good whatsoever, but the one justification that I can offer is that it is hard to just let someone lead you into basic moves (especially if that person is not quite at your level) when you have so much talent that you want to share and you want to do more. This was ONE of the reasons why I decided to switch partners midway through the semester: my old partner was a weak leader and didn't seem to have any desire to become a strong one; consequently, I was having to backlead more and more, and rather than form a bad habit, I decided it was better for me to move on and dance with someone with whom I could learn how to REALLY follow. My new partner, thankfully, is very concerned with learning the proper leads for each dance, which makes my job a whole lot easier and less stressful. Still, things aren't ideal: I still find myself backleading from time to time, but Dave (bless his heart) has made it a habit to chastise me whenever I do, which is slowly but surely breaking me of my bad habit :lol:

More than anything, I think it is the responsibility of both the leader and the follower to prevent backleading. Both parties need to build up a great deal of trust for one another, as this will make it easier for the leader to know that his partner is not going to make a fool of him on the floor, and easier for the follower to know that her partner is going to protect her from harm on the floor. Leaders should also make a concerted effort to learn the proper leads for each figure and use them firmly and clearly, while followers should also pay great attention to they way the leads feel and should respond to them accordingly.

Lastly, and this is from personal experience, leaders, don't be afraid to tell your partner to "cut it out", and followers, don't be offended if your partner tells you this...trust me, if neither of you acknowledge that there is a problem, it will never get fixed, and it will only worsen over time.

ballroomboilergirl

01-03-2004, 03:15 PM

A few final thoughts...

The only time I find it acceptable to backlead is when you are demonstrating a move to someone who has never seen it before...then it is almost necessary to pull a little here and push a little there to help them get a feel for what the move is supposed to feel like. I just recommend only doing it that way once or twice, though, so they don't get used to be lead into a move, rather than conciously leading it...make sure you show them how to lead it!

Even though my previous post relates more to competitive dancing, I think it also applies (perhaps to a lesser degree) with social dancing...even though backleading is tolerated someone more with social dancing, I find that it can be a cause of of emotional distress and can come across as "standoffish" or "fussy" to strangers...just be careful...

One method that my coach taught me to curb your backleading urges is to dance with your eyes closed. A lot of backleading comes from a follower being too cogniscant of what is going on around them. If you impair one of your five senses, the other four become stronger...since taste and smell aren't really utilized in dancing (at least to my knowledge...maybe its time to check back with the "Hottest Dance Floor Experiences" thread :shock:), it only strengthens your hearing and feeling, which drastically enhances your ability to follow and stay on time. It is also a good trust exercise with your partner :D

youngsta

01-03-2004, 04:36 PM

Yeah what ballroomboilergirl said! :lol:

Its not right and it doesn't do myself or my partner any good whatsoever, but the one justification that I can offer is that it is hard to just let someone lead you into basic moves (especially if that person is not quite at your level) when you have so much talent that you want to share and you want to do more.
I'm speaking as a social dancer so maybe I'm out of line, but that's not the right attitude to have. If leads have that same attitude they wouldn't take the time to dance with a follower not at their level. People are so afraid to have to dance with someone and not "look their best"...isn't it supposed to be about the enjoyment of those 5 minutes?

ballroomboilergirl

01-03-2004, 05:07 PM

Yeah what ballroomboilergirl! :lol:

Its not right and it doesn't do myself or my partner any good whatsoever, but the one justification that I can offer is that it is hard to just let someone lead you into basic moves (especially if that person is not quite at your level) when you have so much talent that you want to share and you want to do more.
I'm speaking as a social dancer so maybe I'm out of line, but that's not the right attitude to have. If leads have that same attitude they wouldn't take the time to dance with a follower not at their level. People are so afraid to have to dance with someone and not "look their best"...isn't it supposed to be about the enjoyment of those 5 minutes?

No I think you're completely IN line with thinking that way :D I guess what I was trying to say is that, from the point of view of a follower, when you're really into what you're doing, and your partner is only leading a few moves, you get a bit ansy...you know how girls are, they like to be "swept off their feet" by some guy who knows what he's doing on the dance floor 8) But, as I have noticed from personal experience and looking at the male vs. female dance progress curve (I don't have the link handy, but I think it was on Edie the Salsa Freak's website), often men and women that have been dancing for the same amount of time aren't necessarily at the same skill level...when women first start dancing, they pick up a lot very quickly, whereas men progress more slowly...and understandably so, since they must learn how to lead the moves and watch out for their partner in addition to knowing the moves themselves. This is often why partnerships between beginners don't pan out: women get frustrated with men who can't do as much as they would like. Again, its not fair for you guys and it's not very nice of us girls, but then again no one is perfect and we don't do it out of malice...we just want to be good dancers.

The more I think about what I said, the less I think it applies to social dancing and the more I think it applies to competitive dancing. See, I'm a competitor, so a lot more emphasis is placed on skill levels on my team...often whether or not your partner can lead a certain move determines your placement in competition. When I social dance, though, I don't worry about or judge people over their skill level...I just dance and have fun :D I guess I just have to worry more about skill level when I compete...and I would completely understand if a guy who was a lot better than me declined to compete with me due to the disparity in our dancing abilities. For competition, I think its a lot better to dance with someone at your level; for social dancing, I think its better to dance with people who aren't at your level, so that you can learn from those who are better than you and help those who aren't quite at your level :D

pygmalion

01-03-2004, 06:28 PM

Cool points about placements and skill level in social versus competitive dance, ballroomboil .... Courtney. (Your login name is LONG!) :lol: :lol:

If I can figure out how to word it, I'll start a thread so we can talk about that. :D

SDsalsaguy

01-03-2004, 07:16 PM

Might not BBG's points not be even more applicable to social than to competitive dancing? What I mean is that competitors often have a routine and if the woman backleads herself according to the routine than, at least, it is what the man was going to lead anyway...the likelihood of such a match in social dancing is, well, :shock:

ballroomboilergirl

01-03-2004, 08:08 PM

Hmmmm....good point Jonathan...

The way it seems to work out on my team, people who are at the Newcomer and Bronze levels are encouraged NOT to have routines...my coach's reasoning with this is that before we can correctly execute routines in the higher levels, we first have to learn sound basic techniques, which includes properly leading and following. This is not to say that there aren't people in Newcomer and Bronze that DO have a set routine...however, I notice that beginners who tend to do a set pattern of steps in a set order often lack floorcraft and musicality because their routine doesn't allow them to navigate around other couples and their steps often don't quite fit the mood of the dance :? Anyway, I digress...but yes, once one reaches the Silver level on our team, they typically then ONLY do routines, which does help to compensate for a lack of leading/following abilities. However, I think there is a bit of leading/following that must be done in competition routines to prevent the woman from moving prematurely/late and prevent the man from looking, well, "not in charge" :lol: I have seen routines that LOOK like routines (mechanical, rehearsed, generic) because the man and woman lacked connection and didn't quite move in unison. Granted, the leading/following techniques necessary for routines aren't as "hard-core" as they are for improvised dancing and the woman can get away with backleading a bit more, but I think the lead/follow elements are still very much present and necessary.

As for social dancing, in my opinion, I avoid backleading not because it is a detriment to both my and my partner's leading/following abilities, but I just find it to be more of an etiquette/courtesy issue. It takes A LOT of guts for a guy to ask a girl to dance, and even more guts for a guy who has just started out to ask a girl who is much more advanced than he is to dance :shock: I don't like to make a tough situation any harder. I have come to learn and accept that, on the dance floor, the follower's abilities mean next to nothing; the leader is the boss and he'll lead what he wants to. No offense to guys (hehe, in fact I think most of you will agree with me), but men in authority positions (READ: leaders on a dance floor!) don't like to be bossed around or told they're wrong. To me, backleading is basically saying, though dancing "You're not very good at this so I am just going to ignore you and do my own thing." Its rude and selfish and wounds pride. And backleading especially won't help a beginner leader who is trying to develop a good leading technique. So if I'm dancing with a guy who is not necessarily at my level, I just smile, have fun, follow what he leads, and thank him for the dance...I appreciate anyone who asks me to dance :D If he asks for help, I'll gladly give it; if he doesn't, I will keep my mouth politely shut. And I would hope that a more advanced leader would do the same for me.

I guess to put it all in perspective, you have to look at your purpose: in competition, your purpose is to win, so skill takes precedence. In social dancing, your purpose is purely for fun, so you almost have to block out the "skill-level" prejudice you might have.

youngsta

01-03-2004, 09:50 PM

This is a great discussion. I remember when I first started dancing seeing the chart on Edie's site and instantly becoming frustrated. You are right on with your points BBG. Now that I'm the level of lead that these women want to dance with I try to let them know in the nicest way possible not to forget those guys that started with them. Because when they do hit the point on the graph where their level spirals upwards at an alarmingly fast rate, they won't want anything to do with the women that gave up on them early on.

I always say the best thing you can do for a brand new lead is follow exactly what he's leading to a T. Then he'll more quickly understand what he's doing wrong.

Sagitta

01-03-2004, 11:43 PM

Cool points about placements and skill level in social versus competitive dance, ballroomboil .... Courtney. (Your login name is LONG!)

Might not BBG's points...

You are right on with your points BBG.

BBG, BBG, BBG, BB Gun! Oops!! :oops:

I just don't want to go to sleep, so I'm in one of my odd moods!!

Now that I'm the level of lead that these women want to dance with I try to let them know in the nicest way possible not to forget those guys that started with them. Because when they do hit the point on the graph where their level spirals upwards at an alarmingly fast rate, they won't want anything to do with the women that gave up on them early on. .

Very kind of you to think of people like me. :)

youngsta

01-04-2004, 12:09 AM

Very kind of you to think of people like me. :)
Same place I've been bro. :wink: Keep working, the payoff is amazing! 8)

pygmalion

01-04-2004, 08:22 AM

youngsta

01-04-2004, 09:51 AM

During instruction I don't have a problem with it if they are talking the student through what they're doing. Other than that it has no place on the dancefloor (imho).

SDsalsaguy

01-04-2004, 01:09 PM

I'd have to say that this depends on circumstances... in a lesson, when she's explaining and demonstrating how something *should* work than, of course, I can see it. Or, say, in a studio showcase -- where the whole point is for the student to be "showcased." Here too I could see a female instructor backleading.

So too, perhaps, with a *very* shy student at his first few studio socials . . . while such backleading is not good instruction, isn't it better that he feel comfortable enough to come back rather than incompetent and be scared away?

Beyond the initial social "fluency" element though, I think that such backleading should only be for specific instructional purposes.

Vince A

01-04-2004, 09:30 PM

Okay, so here's a question. What about backleading for female dance teachers? Okay? Not okay? A necessary evil?

I've known a couple female teachers who were truly excellent backleaders. Not sure if that's a compliment or not LOL.
NO WAY!!!
And if you are competing, and should you take home the gold and your dance teacher/Pro was doing some backleading . . . did you truly earn "the gold?"

In a group class setting maybe . . . to get a point through and understood, etc.

tsb

01-04-2004, 10:00 PM

Exactly what IS backleading? How do you know when you're being led/not followed properly? How do you handle it? And are there circumstances in which backleading is acceptable or beneficial?

i would state it this way: that a follower consistently anticipates/initiates figures that are not consistent with the input received from the leader.

i do (& advocate) role reversal as an exercise, so i understand & appreciate the skill(s) it takes to be a good follower and i can see how ambiguous leads can be misinterpreted. but IMHO, backleading is not a technical problem as much as an attitude problem; (again IMHO) backleading makes a statement that the follower does not respect the leader's ability to lead. as such, the only acceptable instance of backleading would be when the leader has given explicit approval to the follower that they do so, generally for the purpose of giving the leader some feedback.

Sagitta

01-05-2004, 09:36 AM

How do you know when you're being led/not followed properly?

I enjoyed reading an article on following: I don't like the term "following" (http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/following.htm)

Vince A

01-05-2004, 10:23 AM

"Most" women DO backlead to some extent . . .

If they attempt to change the leader's intent by exerting an attempt to "lead," then they are backleading.

If they are hi-jacking me, that's a different story all together.

LatinDancer006

12-04-2006, 02:58 PM

I don't know if you'd call this backleading, but I've danced at social parties with a few women who have a tendency to beat out the tempo of the music with their arms (kinda like how musicians tap their feet to the tempo) or they'd do the wax on wax off with so much tone in their arms that it interfers with my enjoyment of the music. It makes it harder to feel the rhythm or to interpret the music with these outside "noises". It sometimes makes leading a little difficult too because she breaks the frame and you'd have to exert more force to counter all this movement that she's doing. It's not hurting me in any way. But it's annoying as hell. How do you guys handle this? How do you get her to quiet her mind and feel our rhythm, feel our leads? I tried not to verbally correct or teach during a social dance unless it's solicited. So, I've tried to hold a more toned frame so it's harder for her to move my arms and I've tried to forego my frame and just let my arms go completely limp. That'd quiet her down and I can tell she's thinking, "uh what's going on?". Then I'd think, "okay, good she's calming down and she's listening. Now we can dance". But then as soon as I resume my frame, she starts it up again. ***! Is she trying to tell me something? I don't really get subtlety. But then later I'd see her doing the same thing with her arms when she was dancing with another guy.

atk

12-04-2006, 03:08 PM

I enjoyed reading an article on following: I don't like the term "following" (http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/following.htm)

Sagitta,

When I followed that link, it was broken. When I checked the directory above it, there were other things, but nothing that looked right. Could you check the link?

Thanks,
atk

waltzgirl

12-04-2006, 03:21 PM

Maybe she thinks she's styling? There was another thread complaining about people who move their arms too much dancing salsa and one thought there weas that it was an attempt at styling. If so, she's doing it on purpose, so it would be hard to get her to stop.

I don't know what dance you're talking about, but do you ever dance with just a one-hand hold? Maybe that would confuse her enough that she'd hold still to feel the lead with that arm--and she could do whatever she wanted with the free arm.

Sagitta

12-04-2006, 05:23 PM

Sagitta,

When I followed that link, it was broken. When I checked the directory above it, there were other things, but nothing that looked right. Could you check the link?

Thanks,
atk

Try this.... http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/partnering.htm

waltzgirl

12-04-2006, 05:31 PM

Try this.... http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/partnering.htm

Great article. What do you think would be better terms than "lead" and "follow"? I like "initiate" and "respond."

Sagitta

12-04-2006, 05:36 PM

Conversation.

BUt, then, I have different ways of dancing. When I feel that a person is not really listening I can change my hand grip and just dictate what is to be done. Kind of like a parent telling a kid what to do. Palm to palm is more of a conversation...like as if one is doing a handshake. My hand over her/his is not but sometimes is a necessary evil.

LatinDancer006

12-04-2006, 06:32 PM

DWise1

12-04-2006, 07:25 PM

I can't say that it's never, ever her fault. The horrible experience that comes immediately to mind was the woman who joined in on our salsa class. It's held in a bar -- OK, a motel lounge -- and usually has about twice as many men as women. So this bar patron stepped in to help even things out, though she'd had a couple drinks before she did. The routine called for me to lead an outside turn and without fail she turned instead to her left, regard less of how blatantly clear and forceful I tried to make my lead. So I just waited and suffered through this until we were told to rotate, thanked her, and moved on. She didn't last long -- some double turns for the follow came up shortly thereafter.

However, I do still make it a general rule for self-evaluation and self-improvement that, when my partner doesn't follow my lead, I automatically assume that the problem was in my lead and I try to figure out how to correct and improve it.

Of course, if it's a move that she needs to be familiar with to follow, then I try to give verbal hints if that would be appropriate. Cases in point:

1. in salsa with a beginner, she will usually misinterpret a comb (AKA "shower") behind her head as my leading a turn. My perennial goal is to figure out how to lead that so that even a beginner won't try to turn.

2. in WCS, a beginner will almost invariably try to turn inside of a locked whip. So I hold her in place to prevent her turning, accompanied by a verbal clue: "you go straight forward, then straight back."

Another situation when it's her fault (and even the teachers who teach "it's always the lead's fault" will say this) is when she doesn't give me the connection I need to lead her. Like spaghetti arms. Like not giving me her back during a whip or swingout. Like letting go of my hand at the wrong times. For that, I try to compensate as much as I can, but I'll sometimes need to ask for the connection.

But all in all, I'm more than ready to take the blame when a move goes wrong, usually by reminding her that I'm the one doing the driving, after all. Hey, it's about dancing, not ego.

Other than that, my main pet peeve is in salsa in two-handed open position when she insists on cranking my hands around.

waltzgirl

12-04-2006, 07:35 PM

A quote from the article: http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/partnering.htm. "As with a language interpreter at the United Nations, a dancer's ability to interpret signals requires intelligence and experience. Guys, if you want to make a good impression on your partner, show her that you respect this intelligence and experience. How? If she does something that you didn't intend, recognize that she still made a valid alternate interpretation of the signals you gave her. She didn't make a "mistake". No, don't just recognize it. Show her that you know she didn't make a mistake, by flowing along with her during her valid alternate interpretation."

And then it goes on to say, "....Men, I probably don't have to state the obvious, but you must give her a clear lead to interpret. Just as a language interpreter can't translate mumbling, she similarly can't interpret a mumbled lead."

Oh my geesh! This is the funniest thing I've read. It's got to be written by a femineist or a guy who's whipped. So, this is to say that it's Never Ever a follower's fault even if she misinterpret a lead and if that happens it has to be because the lead is not clear enough? :headwall:

No, it's just a different approach to dancing. Following along with Sagitta's conversation model, if you are talking with someone and she changes the subject, did she make a "mistake" in the conversation? Maybe she didn't understand you, maybe she chose to take the convesation in a different direction, maybe she doesn't know some of the words you used and so responded only to those she did know--all kinds of possibilities. I think the article's point is that, just as a graceful conversationalist doesn't dogmatically insist on talking about only what he wants to talk about, a graceful leader goes with the flow when the follower's response is not what he expected.

Call it "no-fault" dancing.

dancesportgirl21

12-04-2006, 07:36 PM

[quote=Sagitta;351494]Conversation.
quote]

I agree that conversation is an accurate word for it. This is from an interview with Massimo and Alessia from http://www.dsninternational.com/members/pages/body/040227MassimoAlessia.html:

DB: As the lady you have to respond to everything he does. When he starts to do some of the crazy stuff that I'm sure is not rehearsed, what goes though your mind?

Alessia: I enjoy what he gives me and try to give something back to him - to participate as much as I can in whatever he does.

Massimo: We prefer the word participate to follow.

Alessia: I don't believe that women just follow. I know that many may not accept what I am saying now. Follow to me is a very passive word. Even lead is the wrong word to me. We both participate.

DB: It's a conversation between you?

Massimo: It's like now. When you talk loudly, I listen. Then I talk and you listen. There is no rule there. In competition, perhaps the man talks a little louder because he has to change the direction or choreography.

As for backleading- In the end, if a couple who competes has this problem, they will only create problems for themselves since it seriously inhibits floorcraft. In a social situation- I guess that could turn into a bit of a wrestling match- lol!

DennisBeach

12-04-2006, 08:12 PM

A few final thoughts...

Even though my previous post relates more to competitive dancing, I think it also applies (perhaps to a lesser degree) with social dancing...even though backleading is tolerated someone more with social dancing, I find that it can be a cause of of emotional distress and can come across as "standoffish" or "fussy" to strangers...just be careful...

:D

I don't think it is tolerated in social dancing. I have seen numerous couples were the lady is more advanced and is backleading excessively. Normally I see them at one or two dances and never see them again. There are numerous ladies at the places we dance, who are much more advanced than their partners, but they do not backlead. I ghave seen those couples at dances regularily over the 5 years we have been dancing.

I have also seen a few unattached ladies at dances who backlead, again I only saw them at dances for a short time.

I find backleading the most frustrating experience. I rather dance with a beginner who follows and than just do basic steps in manner she can handle.

I occasionally dance mixers and as long as the lady follows, it is enjoyable, not as much fun as dancing with more advanced ladies, but still fun.

Marko

12-04-2006, 09:36 PM

I think that backleading is important and should be used at the moments when one of the partners has to suddenly change the routine. Example: when leader is going backwards and is going to bump into the other couple, the follower can signal him or even force him to stop/change the direction.
Or when a couple is off-beat (and the leader doesn't notice it), which sometimes happens to me, the follower can correct the leader (although it shouldn't be done forcefully).

We use several ways to communicate specific things to each other - hand shakes, pinches, taps = posture fix, special next step, emergency stop ...

There is no other way to communicate - you cannot look at each other and you won't be able to talk/hear in loud environment.

cornutt

12-04-2006, 10:03 PM

To continue the m-e-t-a-phor that has been built up on this thread: In any conversation, there are various interruptions and miscommunications that can take place. I do not define these as backleading, in the bad sense. Backleading is the dancing equivalent of: "I'm not listening to you! Nyah nyah nyah!" :p

Marko

12-04-2006, 10:17 PM

Well, "It takes two to Tango," right?
Why should one dance with a person who only cares about him/herself?
Just dump him/her and let them lead themselves alone.

Catarina

12-04-2006, 10:19 PM

Seems like there's a fine line between anticipating correctly and backleading, eh?

I'm guilty of backleading when dancing with people newer to salsa than me, who can't keep the tempo of the music, so I will try to help lead them in just doing the basic (as they generally aren't trying any funky stuff anyway). related to the pupeteer thread too, I've heard that some guys will lead beginning follows who are having a hard time keeping in time with the music by gently holding her wrists with just the thumb and middle finger for increased control and to guide more easily a person who does not know how to react properly to leading/tension.

waltzgirl

12-05-2006, 01:56 AM

Backleading is the dancing equivalent of: "I'm not listening to you! Nyah nyah nyah!" :p

:uplaugh:

atk

12-05-2006, 08:37 AM

Try this.... http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/partnering.htm

Sagitta,

Thanks :) Very good article :)

tangotime

12-05-2006, 09:59 AM

technical definition-- when either party moving in a backwards position , collapses their weight onto the back foot BEFORE the closing leg is under the body ( swing dances ) Common mistake in the early stages of developement . In latin . the same effect can happen particularly when the man is in a static position , with lady moving away from man to open position, and allowing weight transfer to heel of back foot prematurely, before change of direction is due .
as a coach, I am not in favor of ladies overly backleading any movement. , particularly when dancing any closed position dance. It makes it nigh impossible to determine where the mans weakness in the sequence is occuring . Preferably, inform me, so we can isolate the positions ,and determine what is causing the problem . One of the more prominent visuals is in heel turns, when we see the ladies " lift " the closed feet releasing the toes in an upwards position .

chandra

12-05-2006, 10:40 AM

Hmmm, I guess there is a fine line between "helping" and back leading. Like if a guy is off time, there are certain things i can subtly do to help us get back on time that arent strictly following. Or if a guy is leading one basic move 40 times in a row, I can position my body in such a way that it is subconsciously easiest for him to lead something else. (In WCS, anchoring on the rail - a side pass comes instead of sugar pushes. Anchoring on the rail is completely acceptable every once and awhile, but if its to conscienciously change the lead, is it back leading?)

tangotime

12-05-2006, 10:50 AM

I believe that is a whole new set of problems . many men have been taught sequences which they tend to not deviate from , in that case, i think a gentle reminder is in good order .As a more general rule, back lead is far more pervasive in the smooth side of things, where it can be hidden if one does not look closely .

cornutt

12-05-2006, 12:37 PM

Like if a guy is off time, there are certain things i can subtly do to help us get back on time that arent strictly following.

Actually, this hit a nerve with me. One of the few ways that a follower can really get me annoyed is to refuse to dance my timing. I know where the beat is, darn it. If I choose to dance a little ahead or behind it, that's my prerogative as a lead. I will admit that occasionally I accidentally invert the one and the five; if so, a word from my parter is a lot less awkward then her trying to force me back onto the one. And if we're doing smooth and I'm taking steps that are too large for her, again, I would rather her speak up then try to brick-wall my movement.

The real difference between helping and back-leading is intent. Helping should be a normal part of the "conversation". If I'm moving backwards and I'm about to hit somebody, a bit of redirection (or at least warning) from my partner is a much-appreciated courtesy. And there are places where I want input from my partner into the dance; I'm working on how to create more of those places. I might even welcome a hijack here and there, although I have no experience with that.

Sometimes follows miss things. Stuff happens. I'm getting better at telling when I've given my partner an ambigious lead, or when she's just confused, so I'm not so surprised when she does something unexpected. Similarly, beginners in particular will miss things. It happens. I learn to work with it; go with the movement, and work my way back to a recovery position. I can tell the difference (not always, but often) between a miss and intentional back-leading. And there's a huge difference in how it feels, what I have to do to recover, and the general feel of what it does to the connection. Intent translates to movement and feel. The analagous experience for follows is the difference between a mushy, vague lead and a precise, definite lead. You can trust the latter; the former, you're never sure what they are going to do, so you have to go into a self-protection mode.

Having said all that, I will say that I have only rarely encountered an intentional back-leader. 98% of the time it's either miscommunication, lack of experience, or anxiety on the part of the follower who wants to please her partner so badly that she jumps the gun on things.

LatinDancer006

12-05-2006, 01:17 PM

I totally agree with the statement that "it takes two to tango." It's a team effort. Each member has his/her own sets of responsibilities. One of the leader's responsibility is to set the path and one of the follower's is to follow the path. If one person does not take on her responsibility, then there's no...tango.

And, although I think the conversation ****phor is great, it's a bit of a narrow view. The way I look at it is, it's the leader's role to create the story, to develop the plot, and define the climax. The follower's role is that of a character in the story, well kinda. If she keeps changing the topic of conversation at unexpected times, she destroys the suspense that the author is trying to create and possibly change the climax as well.

The one thing that concerns me after reading this article is that it could lead one to take on the mindset that, since the blame will always be on the leader, she (the follower) doesn't have to worry about evaluating herself to see what she could do to get better. Let me give you an example. During a salsa class, we were to do a routine that called for a CBL with a double inside (I think) turn into a hammer lock. And I was dancing with this lady whose spin was not good. She could somewhat pull it off, but she lacked balance and self-controll. And she had quite an ego on her. Anyway, the problem I had was getting her arm down during the second turn to get her into the hammer lock position. I met with a lot of resistance. She kept holding me arm up with her death grip, despite my attempt to bring it down. I didn't have this problem with the two ladies prior to her. So, like DWise1, I automatically assume that the problem was in my lead and I try to figure out how to correct and improve it. I looked at the timing of it, the proximity of each of us, and how much force I was using. The only thing I hesitate to change was to use more force to bring down her arm. I was afraid that I'd either yank her arm out of her socket or cause her to fall. After my exhausting search for self improvement and several trials I still couldn't get her arm to come down and into hammer lock after the spin. So, I decide to address this problem verbally with her. And she snapped at me saying that I was the leader, it was my job to bring her arm down, bla, bla, bla. I didn't seem like I could reason with her so I just stepped out.

You know what the ironic thing about all this is? It's been my experience that the backleaders are usually the ones complaining that we don't lead them enough.

samina

12-05-2006, 01:27 PM

It's been my experience that the backleaders are usually the ones complaining that we don't lead them enough.

yah, i'm sure that's true. the only time i might backlead is to keep flow going when the guy's lead is too tentative or not understandable. it becomes my best guess as to what he wants rather than my consciously imposing something on him, but it's always related to not understanding what he wants.

i'm never ungracious about it, tho. i tend to take more than my share of responsibility. ;)

Peaches

12-05-2006, 01:48 PM

Actually, this hit a nerve with me. One of the few ways that a follower can really get me annoyed is to refuse to dance my timing. I know where the beat is, darn it. If I choose to dance a little ahead or behind it, that's my prerogative as a lead.

Cornutt, I hear what you're saing, this is the key to the rest of the post. YOU know where the beat is. A lot of guys...well...don't.

I don't know how I feel about backleading in that type of situation. Sometimes I will if the guy is rushing (nothing worse than a rushed waltz with absolutely no correlation b/t beats and steps)--I'll kinda ground myself and slow things down. If it doesn't work right off, I give up and grin and bear it.

OTOH, there's a lot to be said for purely following your partner in a social setting.

All of this is said knowing that I will, occasionally (hopefully more rarely now than before) backlead without realizing it.

waltzgirl

12-05-2006, 05:51 PM

The one thing that concerns me after reading this article is that it could lead one to take on the mindset that, since the blame will always be on the leader, she (the follower) doesn't have to worry about evaluating herself to see what she could do to get better.

I didn't take it that way. I saw him heading toward an idea of not blaming anybody (he was addressing leaders, so he did have advice for them). If followers don't want to be blamed, it behooves us not to do any blaming either!

Let me give you an example. During a salsa class, we were to do a routine that called for a CBL with a double inside (I think) turn into a hammer lock. And I was dancing with this lady whose spin was not good. She could somewhat pull it off, but she lacked balance and self-controll. And she had quite an ego on her. Anyway, the problem I had was getting her arm down during the second turn to get her into the hammer lock position. I met with a lot of resistance. She kept holding me arm up with her death grip, despite my attempt to bring it down. I didn't have this problem with the two ladies prior to her. So, like DWise1, I automatically assume that the problem was in my lead and I try to figure out how to correct and improve it. I looked at the timing of it, the proximity of each of us, and how much force I was using. The only thing I hesitate to change was to use more force to bring down her arm. I was afraid that I'd either yank her arm out of her socket or cause her to fall. After my exhausting search for self improvement and several trials I still couldn't get her arm to come down and into hammer lock after the spin. So, I decide to address this problem verbally with her. And she snapped at me saying that I was the leader, it was my job to bring her arm down, bla, bla, bla. I didn't seem like I could reason with her so I just stepped out.

But look at it from the conversation model. You were determined to finish the pattern no matter what. But she was telling you, physically, that she couldn't complete the pattern. If I understood the description of the step correctly, the reason is obvious to me as a follower. If you don't yet have good balance and control, spins feel bad and are scary. You think you're going to fall, get hurt, and humiliate yourself. That's why she had a death grip on your hand (probably unconsicously, just a physical reaction to feeling so unstable and uncertain). Moving one arm down during a spin (or any motion on just one side of the body) upsets your balance even further. She couldn't do it.

I can understand, in a class, that you want to practice the pattern you are learning. But in a social dance, a "conversational" leader would feel the instability--or the death grip--and realize that she wasn't up to exiting the spins in any fancy way and would have brought her out of them in a simpler way, abandoning the hammerlock he had planned. Even if he wasn't experienced enough to understand why her arm wouldn't come down, the fact that it wouldn't would tell him to exit the spins in another way.

After the holidays, I'm planning to take some beginner classes as a leader, so I can understand it and respond to it better. I think leaders should do some following, too.

But one thing I know, leaders aren't leading badly on purpose and followers aren't following badly on purpose. We're all just doing the best we can.

DWise1

12-05-2006, 07:41 PM

Part of the leader-follower dilemma is that it is difficult to learn either in a class. Both parties know what the pattern is, so the need to communicate it to her is not quite there. She knows what she needs to do so she just does it, especially if she's not feeling any lead just to make it work out right. As far as he knows, his "lead" was successful, because she "responded" to it. And she doesn't learn what the lead is supposed to feel like. Then when they both go out into the wild and try it, they can't understand why it doesn't work anymore.

In class when my partner apologizes that she doesn't remember the routine, I say, "Good, then you'll be able to follow."

And, yes, part of the conversational model is for him to "listen" to how she responds to his lead. He needs to assess what she cannot do and then to not lead that. For example, in Lindy when I try to swing her out and she always bails out of it with a different step, then I realize that she hasn't learned the swingout. Same thing with Charleston; I was doing a Lindy with an alumna of Dick Clark's original American Bandstand from Philly -- it turned into kind of an impromptu exhibition in front of a Westie and country group -- and I started a Charleston and she was completely lost, so I switch back to ECS (she was also unfamiliar with swingouts, so I didn't do those anymore either). We got a standing ovation.

waltzgirl, one thing you'll find when you start to lead is how different every follow feels -- hey, cut that out! I'm talking about her frame, not her rack [grin]. I imagine that every lead also feels different.

waltzgirl

12-05-2006, 07:51 PM

waltzgirl, one thing you'll find when you start to lead is how different every follow feels -- hey, cut that out! I'm talking about her frame, not her rack [grin].

:raisebro: ;)

I imagine that every lead also feels different.

You bet! The biggest variation is in foxtrot, I think. A foxtrot mixer can feel like a totally different dance everytime around the floor.

12-05-2006, 08:03 PM

But one thing I know, leaders aren't leading badly on purpose and followers aren't following badly on purpose. We're all just doing the best we can.

Well said. But I still have to deal with followers who actually get upset and say nasty things to me; generally along the lines of "you're not doing it right" (implying that I am ruining their dance!) This usually happens during group lessons but sometimes happens on the floor. When I first started dancing I tended to blame myself. Now that I have been dancing for several years I have conclusively established that it is most definately not my fault.** But I still wish I could find some polite way to verbally ask for or suggest some teamwork without bluntly pointing out that I have done my work suggesting the lead, perhaps she (It's always a she. Sorry, but in the few odd situations where I dance with guys ~ mostly instructors and at AT practica ~ it just ain't an issue.) might concentrate on her own part without worrying so much about mine. Pretty much anything I say, no matter how polite, just seems to make the situation worse. Suggesting that they try to lead and offering to follow is apparently worse than telling someone they are wearing ugly shoes or need to lose weight, judging by the reaction.:rolleyes:

After the holidays, I'm planning to take some beginner classes as a leader, so I can understand it and respond to it better. I think leaders should do some following, too.

The few women I know who at least experiment a little with leading happen to be the same few women that I really enjoy taking any kind of lesson with or practicing with. Coincidence???

A few final thoughts...

The only time I find it acceptable to backlead is when you are demonstrating a move to someone who has never seen it before...

I quite agree.

Hmmm, I guess there is a fine line between "helping" and back leading. Like if a guy is off time, there are certain things i can subtly do to help us get back on time that arent strictly following. Or if a guy is leading one basic move 40 times in a row, I can position my body in such a way that it is subconsciously easiest for him to lead something else. (In WCS, anchoring on the rail - a side pass comes instead of sugar pushes. Anchoring on the rail is completely acceptable every once and awhile, but if its to conscienciously change the lead, is it back leading?)

It's all in the intent and in the result. The really good followers I dance with do all kinds of stuff that I don't lead, strictly speaking. From styling to hi-jacking to changing the timing of the steps... It adds to the dance and makes it delightful. Because they do it in a way that compliments my lead and compliments the music. Generally they know when and how to do it without screwing up whatever I had planned. Sometimes they like to screw things up deliberately and thats O.K. too. But they don't try to do the leading for me. That's the difference.

I also dance with a few followers who consistently dance in the direction, steps and timing that pleases them pretty much irregardless of what my lead is suggesting. Some of them are really nice people and I don't mind dancing with them if the floor isn't too crowded. (Yikes, watchout for...:rolleyes: ) But the quality of the dance we produce pales in comparison.

Followers, form the point of view of a guy who struggled alot to get to the point where women consistently ask me to dance:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO CORRECT THE MANS LEAD UNLESS YOU ARE ASKED TO.

It makes it entirely impossible for him to learn to lead. Really #^%&%@ impossible. Plus it is insulting and rude.
I really can't say it enough.

-SD

waltzgirl

12-05-2006, 08:29 PM

Well said. But I still have to deal with followers who actually get upset and say nasty things to me; generally along the lines of "you're not doing it right" (implying that I am ruining their dance!) This usually happens during group lessons but sometimes happens on the floor.

Well, they're just rude!

But I still wish I could find some polite way to verbally ask for or suggest some teamwork without bluntly pointing out that I have done my work suggesting the lead,

How about

"Well, if I knew how to do it better, I would." (true, no? we can always get better)

followed by

"Let's do it again slowly and see if we can figure out where we're not communicating." (redefine the problem without blame)

or

"Let's get the teacher over to figure out what's going wrong." (Always a good one--it's almost always the complainer who gets "fixed.")

Suggesting that they try to lead and offering to follow is apparently worse than telling someone they are wearing ugly shoes or need to lose weight, judging by the reaction.:rolleyes:

:uplaugh:

The few women I know who at least experiment a little with leading happen to be the same few women that I really enjoy taking any kind of lesson with or practicing with. Coincidence???

I think not. Wanna dance?

chandra

12-05-2006, 09:21 PM

Actually, this hit a nerve with me. One of the few ways that a follower can really get me annoyed is to refuse to dance my timing. I know where the beat is, darn it. If I choose to dance a little ahead or behind it, that's my prerogative as a lead. I will admit that occasionally I accidentally invert the one and the five; if so, a word from my parter is a lot less awkward then her trying to force me back onto the one. And if we're doing smooth and I'm taking steps that are too large for her, again, I would rather her speak up then try to brick-wall my movement.

The senario Im talking about is in WCS, if a guy is leading me on like 6 instead of 1 CONSISTANTLY. They arent letting me anchor, they are leading me off it early every time. Id just anchor closer to him, and then the extra slack (bad word) in our arms would be used up when he stepped early still letting me anchor.
edit: (I do this mainly in JnJs)
edit: (I lead alot! :D often I pull the girl off an anchor early accidently, and I love when I can feel from her when it wasnt 1. -WCS-)

chachachacat

12-05-2006, 09:56 PM

cornutt

12-05-2006, 10:00 PM

Cornutt, I hear what you're saing, this is the key to the rest of the post. YOU know where the beat is. A lot of guys...well...don't.

OK, I can buy that. I guess it's like my view of backleading in teaching: at the beginner level, it is probably a necessary evil.

I don't know how I feel about backleading in that type of situation. Sometimes I will if the guy is rushing (nothing worse than a rushed waltz with absolutely no correlation b/t beats and steps)--I'll kinda ground myself and slow things down. If it doesn't work right off, I give up and grin and bear it.

Hmm. I was taught that in the smooth/standard dances (particularly tango), the lead should do something to initiate the movement a bit ahead of the time when he actually wants the movement to happen. This is so the follower gets some idea of what she is expected to do before the leader runs over her. :D However, sometimes when I do this, I get accused of dancing "too fast" (ahead of the beat). I don't think of it as dancing ahead of the beat; I'm initiating the movement such that the transfer of weight to the other foot happens, or starts to happen, on the beat generally. (I might vary this, on my better nights, to accent the feel of a particular song.) Not sure if this is what you mean by a "rushed" waltz. Of course, being that waltz is one of those pesky 3/4 dances and most people don't hear a lot of 3/4 music generally, it does happen that less experienced leaders in particular will sometimes lose the one or just lose the beat altogether (I've been that guy :rolleyes: ). I can definitely understand how such a waltz would feel "rushed" or just plain weird to the follower.

So I could see trying to correct the timing of a beginning or just not-very-good lead. But with an experienced lead, it seems to me that it just turns into a jerky wrestling match.

All of this is said knowing that I will, occasionally (hopefully more rarely now than before) backlead without realizing it.

Well, like I said before, I'm now getting to the point where I can usually recognize when I've given my partner an ambiguous lead. That doesn't mean I've reached the point where I've actually quit doing it. :oops:

quixotedlm

12-05-2006, 10:05 PM

"A good lead clearly suggests an option, which is different from controlling her. He proposes, not prescribes, a certain way of moving. If his partner does not go with his proposal (does not 'follow'), he refrains from exerting more power to press her to accept the proposal."

And in a dance social or congress with 100's of poeple, and scores who are 'advanced', there are probably only a couple of followers who subscribe to this philosophy.

And yes, I said "followers". With followers who have an incorrect concept of 'hand tension' and what a "lead" ought to be, leaders are left with no choice but to do more than merely 'invite' or 'suggest'. Even though it might not amount to puppeteering, we do end up contributing momentum.

For me, the perfect dance is one in which I have to contribute almost no momentum. I just had one of those dances yesterday. Yay! :bouncy:

cornutt

12-05-2006, 10:07 PM

The senario Im talking about is in WCS, if a guy is leading me on like 6 instead of 1 CONSISTANTLY. They arent letting me anchor, they are leading me off it early every time. Id just anchor closer to him, and then the extra slack (bad word) in our arms would be used up when he stepped early still letting me anchor.
edit: (I do this mainly in JnJs)
edit: (I lead alot! :D often I pull the girl off an anchor early accidently, and I love when I can feel from her when it wasnt 1. -WCS-)

If I understood you properly, I don't understand how such a WCS can even work! I sort of know what you mean by dragging the follower off her anchor step early. But when I was learning WCS, every time I did that, the dance broke down immediately after that because either I was on the wrong foot, or I found myself with extra counts after my tap step that I didn't know what to do with. So even if I didn't know right away that I had dragged her out of her anchor step, I knew it a few counts later. Are you saying that you've danced with leads that consistently lead you out of the anchor on the wrong count, and still manage to keep the dance going? How the heck do they do that? :confused: :D