Are club dancers better improvisers?

[pygmalion]

Here's a question for you. I read an article on the web today which suggests that club/social dancers -- salsa, merengue, swing, etc. are better at individualized styling and dance improvisation than are more structured dancers, such as ballroom or ballet dancers, for a variety of reasons.

Do you think this is true? Why or why not?

And are there things stuffy old ballroom dancers (like myself LOL) can do to learn to loosen up?

[youngsta]

Yeah we are better :P Most of us have learned on our own making mistake, after mistake and learning to cover them up. That's my best try at this one! :lol:

[Sagitta]

It is as youngsta said. Taking classes in a very structured format represses one's ability to improvise. Often you learn steps/patterns/technique and work on getting it just right. However, those who learn social/club dancing learn a lot by imitating/moving to the music/trying to get through a song without looking as if they have messed up. This forces club/social dancers to constantly improvise.

Suggestion for loosening up/becoming better improvisers:
1. Playing music and just dancing to it. Don't try to do particular steps, even if you recognize it as music that can be danced to a particular dance or a couple dances. The better you get at this the better you become at improvising.
2. Freestyle dancing at clubs?

[MadamSamba]

Jenn, I'm obsessed with salsa and my beloved ballroom, but I have to admit that the ballroom side of things is definitely harder to improvise.

But then, for me, that's the beauty and difference between, say, salsa and ballroom...salsa is such a free-flowing, fluid dance: there are no set routines, per se. Ballroom, while elegant and deliciously dynamic, especially in latin, is more restrained to some extent, if only because of the lack of moves to pick from.

Imagine freestyling a waltz? It could be done, but you'd have to know one hell of a lot of waltz moves and, chances are that if your repertoire is so huge, you're a waltzer by nature and not exactly a club-type improviser, right? Not to mention, dances like the waltz or even the tango don't lend themselves to "fancy new moves". Imagine tangofying a cucaracha or trying to drop a bota fogo into quickstep?

Salsa and club dancing lends itself much more to the invention of new moves simply because it isn't so rigidly defined as ballroom. Of course, I might just be talking through my hat. :)

[SwinginBoo]

I agree with Youngsta. We definitely make mistakes and try to turn them into something neat. We're used to improvising on the spot. It's also fun when you can incorporate some moves you use in partner dancing in your individual freestyle.

[Sagitta]

Here's a link on intelligent dancing (http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/intelligent.htm). It makes for interesting reading in the context of this thread. :)

[suek]

[i'm editing this as I think I'm a little off topic...Jenn's individualized styling and dance improvisation somehow morphed into my rant on lead/follow. I don't know how. Maybe it's this head and chest cold that won't quit. Forgive me. I don't even know how to fix it so I'll just apologize now and leave it as written. Maybe something here will help someone. Maybe not. Oh well. You guys will probably forgive me and love me anyway. Phew.

Back to the original miguided message:]

social dance.social dance. social dance.

it wasn't until I started going out consistently that I began to learn to DANCE...let the music move through me and my partner and be inspired--moved--by it. granted that happens in degrees; sometimes it's more mental than musical. but it's as important--for me--as learning the moves and choreography in class settings.

and as a world-class follow in training I have another secret technique that I use in class. when some choreographed set of moves is being taught I'll often cover my ears so I won't know what's coming thereby focusing at least as much energy on my following as on my perfecting the move

Damon is a good teacher for this kind of thing. He'll often have the follows unaware of when something is going to come (eyes closed, out of the room when he gives the exercise, etc) so that the lead/follow and improvisational element is always there as well as whatever the move du jour happens to be.

[Taita]

Random Thoughts....

Interesting theory, I'd like to know the basis for this conclusion. First, the question pre-supposes ballroom and ballet dancers are 'structured dancers'. People who agree with this notion will probably agree with the notion that club/social dancers are better at individualized styling and improvisation. Personal experience tells me otherwise.

I was in a latin club having a blast this past weekend. There I saw and danced with a great variety of dancers. Some great dancers, some not so great ones. Some creative inspired dancers and some unemotional stiffs. One can learn much about a person just from the way they express themselves.

That night, I recieved a great many compliments on my dancing. Comments ranged from 'good' to 'great body control' to 'get me for another dance later!' :wink: . One woman told me dancing with me was like being in a Ferrari. One woman told me I dance like a 'cubano' (I guess that's good :? ) Yet another woman said 'you dance like a ballroom dancer - except.... you know what you're doing!' (I had to laugh at that one :lol: ). Mind you, I've had years of ballroom training and I don't dance salsa at all, but ballroom training has only made it even easier for me to improvise and just get into a groove.

For some reason, ballroom dancing tends to attract perfectionists. Perfectionists generally tend to think of dancing as a combination of technues that needs to be executed in a particular way for it to be considered 'good'. Unfortunately, execution of technique is only a part of what makes a good dancer. The other part is emotional content, a big part of styling and improvisation. Unfortunately, I see many of them have a hard time getting over themselves in order to reach that part of themselves that can only come from within when you are in the moment. Granted Ballroom gets a bad rap for being boring and uninspiring, but it is inaccurate to characterize ballroom dancers as lacking improvisational skills or style because of their style of dance.

The best dancers in the world are trained. Training allows for a greater quality of movement which only makes it easier to express yourself and is often what makes a good dancer stand out. But even the most well trained dancers are not actually dancing unless there is emotional content. There is no such thing as an uninspired style of dance, just unispired dancers. There is no class or lesson that can teach you what can only come from within.

It sounds to me like whoever came up with that conclusion probably has a bias against training and/or ballroom/ballet.

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: You know me, Taita. I try pick or start threads that have some potential for friendly controversy. :lol:

You make some excellent points, as always.

[Taita]

LOL, I didn't realize you were trying to create trouble. You're bad news lady :wink:

Note to self: New DF Awards Category: Biggest Troublemaker - Pygmalion :wink:

[Vince A]

I know many, many, many excellent dancers who, when dancing, give the impression as though they would/could be world-class dancers. They can improvise with the very best of dancers! Outstanding dancers . . .

Yet, those very same dancers, as extraordinarily great as they are, cannot for the life of them compete. You see, they became very skilled in the art improvising everything . . . arms . . . very expressive instead of where they should be for that instantly recognizable dance; footwork . . . predominantly replete with "toe taps" or "swivels" instead of a triple-step or a good anchor; and they dance "to the audience" with every move instead of the partner with whom they are dancing with.

You see, they have learned to improvise and "showoff" to such an dimension, that they no longer can do the "basics" of the dance . . . in other words . . . their technical "sucks" big time.

Just my 2(ents . . .

[borikensalsero]

Ballroom = Perfection != letting go and making mistakes
social = mistakes = part of the dance

If social dancers are such good improvs then, by God, where are they? I've yet to see many of them in NY City, the so called, Mecca of salsa dancers. There is nothing improv about following set routines. Just like to me the best dancers aren't the ones who have neither the best technique nor the best training. The best dancers are those who surpass the body and become part of the music regardless of technique and training, but all while following the structure of the music and dance.

I know people that no matter how great the ballroom dancer is, to them, they can’t dance. Only because their definition of what makes a good dancer isn’t equal to anything a ballroom dancer will do. No matter how many different steps, or patterns the dancer knows. He can bust out things never seen before and they will stay say that isn’t great dancing.

To me dancing improv doesn’t relate to a particular dance styles, but to particular people. Those who don’t see the line that separates music from the body, hence, when they dance all the are is an extension of the music, therefore, all their dancing is an expression of their inner self.

[Vince A]

borikensalsero . . . . I "think" we said the same thing . . . . . . . . at almost the same time!

[borikensalsero]

borikensalsero . . . . I "think" we said the same thing . . . . . . . . at almost the same time!

lol... i was just thinking the same. :D

[youngsta]

:lol: I was just joking :lol:

[ricodancer]

This is a good topic- from a theatrical dance perspective, I agree that to be a great dancer does require training, the years of grinding it out in ballet classes (I started late, and it was a struggle to make it into advanced classes, particularly, for men I think, to learn petite allegro). What makes great improvisers is cross training into jazz, and especially modern, many styles of which are "uncodified" with the exceptions of Limon, Graham, Horton, and maybe Cunningham. To synthesize ballet, modern, jazz, and in my case middle eastern dance and Latin ballroom, has taken a decade but I think it gives my choreography and my company repertory a distinct style- and most of the repertory comes from my improvising, by myself in the studio, to the music.

[Giselle]

On the subject of covering up mistakes- leads out there, say you are dancing with a decent follow, how often do you typically find yourself covering up mistakes (leads that are not read, getting off beat)?

[Sagitta]

For leads not read act as if nothing has happened. All too often a follow will notice if you try and lead a move and react if it isn't executed. I just act as if it was part of the plan all along. Part of the game.

For getting off beat it depends who is off beat. Actually, on second thought, no matter whom, if you reconize the problem you can do something like a back break into closed position, hold it and get back on beat. There are other ways to do it as well. The trick is making it all seem natural, part of the dance.

[pygmalion]

Then there's always syncopating to get on the correct foot.

[borikensalsero]

On the subject of covering up mistakes- leads out there, say you are dancing with a decent follow, how often do you typically find yourself covering up mistakes (leads that are not read, getting off beat)?

Social dancers usually cover up a lot for each other, especially if aren't familiar with the each other. When something doesn't work out as it was intended, I wink, smile but continue on as if nothing happened making the mistake part of the move.

If I get off beat, depends on how, I love to do body shines, I'll move my upper body grooving to the music until I, either see my partner coming at me, or the 2 or 6 come around for a cross body. If I get off beat because the girl has decided that she wants to step back with her right foot on the 6 instead of the 2 in the middle of the dance, then I do the syncopated step waiting for her to make up her mind. Most of the time I’ll step around her in a circular motion and grab her for a corss body when done.

When we both mess up, really bad, a big bright smile is always good.