AT and Rumba?

[Genesius Redux]

Anybody have any idea of where I might find music that works as an AT-Rumba crossover? It's a very weird combination--the AT music I've heard seems to suit well with other forms like Samba, some Cha Cha, even Bolero, and I've heard Tango Hip Hop and Tango House. It's partly that the ideas of the two dances seem so antithetical--Rumba with its continuous motion, and Tango with its typical stops.

But if anyone knows stuff, then let me know.

BTW, I've got plenty of basic Rumbas with occasional Tango "feels" in the melodic line--especially from Pink Martini and similar European groups. I'm more interested in actual Tango artists who are complementing the Tango, with its typical orchestration (bandoneon, guitar, bass, piano--maybe with added percussion for the crossover, like some of Piazzola's performances of "Libertango.").

Anyway, help would be most welcome!

Thanks!

GR

[Peaches]

I'll have to poke through my music a bit, and see what I can come up with for you. I'm not sure, though, what I'll be able to find. The hang up I can see is that you're looking for AT music which can also be danced as a rumba, instead of music to which a ballroom crowd would dance rumba, but could be AT'ed to. The traditional orchestration makes life much more difficult. (That is what you're looking for, yeah?)

I say, just put on music and dance AT to it. I haven't yet found any kind of music my teacher has not led AT to.

[Joe]

Jeez, you sound like a swing dancer...

[Dave Bailey]

Anybody have any idea of where I might find music that works as an AT-Rumba crossover? It's a very weird combination--the AT music I've heard seems to suit well with other forms like Samba, some Cha Cha, even Bolero, and I've heard Tango Hip Hop and Tango House.
Presumably, looking for slower versions of the stuff that works for Cha Cha is one way to go, as Cha Cha and rumba have similar music structures - have you tried the Neo tango music (Gotan, Narcotango, etc.)?

Jeez, you sound like a swing dancer...
:)

I presume the meaning is, because AT is pattern-free, it's more adaptable than the rumba, which requires a specific set of musical patterns. So it's easier to dance AT to rumba music than vice versa.

I guess it also (probably) means that AT has a wider range of available tempos than dances like the rumba - I can't imagine a too-slow tempo for AT, and you can always vals / milonga to the faster stuff, at least up to around 140BPM I'd think.

[tangotime]

A / T has more variety of tempi than Rumba ?-- not so-- Rumba wins hands down . And, I dont believe one should include T/ W in the equation, being an extension of another form .

If that be the case, then one would have to include Salsa in the Rumba genre, it being an extension of Danzon , the correct name for "Rumba "-- Rumba being a catch all phrase .

The variance in speed, surpasses ANY dance ever devised, starting from 20/24 bars per minute to as high as 40/42 ( Guaracha, another form of Rumba is danced at that speed )

Even foxtrot contends, from 24 to 40 bars p.m.

[Dave Bailey]

A / T has more variety of tempi than Rumba ?-- not so-- Rumba wins hands down . And, I dont believe one should include T/ W in the equation, being an extension of another form .

If that be the case, then one would have to include Salsa in the Rumba genre, it being an extension of Danzon , the correct name for "Rumba "-- Rumba being a catch all phrase .
Fair enough, if you include the "Rumba family" of dances, there's probably as much or more range of tempos as the "AT family". Good point.

I was thinking of "just Rumba", rather than the family. Certainly, fast salsa gets stupidly fast...

[tangotime]

Dave -- Rumba IS the family , the collective name, not just the dance .

p.s. --still taking with Paul ?

[Dave Bailey]

Dave -- Rumba IS the family , the collective name, not just the dance .
Sure, I was just thinking of it in Ballroom terms. Although I suspect you'll get some strange looks if you insist to a salsa dancer that they're dancing Rumba :)

p.s. --still taking with Paul ?
Not for the past few weeks, hopefully I'll be back there on Wednesday - most of my other AT teachers seem to have deserted to BsAs for a long holiday, it must be the season for it... :confused:

[Joe]

I presume the meaning is, because AT is pattern-free, it's more adaptable than the rumba, which requires a specific set of musical patterns. So it's easier to dance AT to rumba music than vice versa.

No, it's because swing dancers will dance swing to anything. :)

[Peaches]

A / T has more variety of tempi than Rumba ?-- not so-- Rumba wins hands down . And, I dont believe one should include T/ W in the equation, being an extension of another form .

If that be the case, then one would have to include Salsa in the Rumba genre, it being an extension of Danzon , the correct name for "Rumba "-- Rumba being a catch all phrase .

The variance in speed, surpasses ANY dance ever devised, starting from 20/24 bars per minute to as high as 40/42 ( Guaracha, another form of Rumba is danced at that speed )

Even foxtrot contends, from 24 to 40 bars p.m.

If you're going to argue that "rumba" now means the "rumba family of dances," as opposed to what it means in common ballroom parlance, then you could very well be right.

However, if you want to start talking about a family of dances, then you really can't exclude vals or milonga when talking about AT. Cant' have it both ways. AT, as a family of dances, includes all three styles, regardless of where they came from.

[Peaches]

Jeez, you sound like a swing dancer...

:p

[Peaches]

Presumably, looking for slower versions of the stuff that works for Cha Cha is one way to go, as Cha Cha and rumba have similar music structures - have you tried the Neo tango music (Gotan, Narcotango, etc.)?


This was my question as well--are you opposed to neo/electronic AT music as a way of finding your rumba?

[tangotime]

My reference was towards the authenticity of the genre.

You have to admit, that the very term " waltz " is taken from another b/room source .

The confusion in putting " names " , to dances, generally seems to ignore the root ( which is still being danced, in many cases ) and morphs into something else , with a very remote hint of its predecessor .
By the way, I dont have to " argue " anything. It is a documented fact. Add to that,I have empirical evidence to that " seed" change .

[tangotime]

True fact is Dave, majority of dancers , dont have a clue about " source ".

And thats okay. ( I guess ? ) if you were to show them how sq, rumba changed to the " mambo " box in the forties, then it would make a lot of sense .

[spectator]

Hiya, this is thefirst time I've posted on Dance Forum so forgive me if this is a silly thing to say:

I think that there is potential for a very interesting discussion on whether the dance is defined by the music or by the dancers. As a musician, I was taught that the rhymic features peculiar to each piece defines what can be danced to it, I'm not saying this is true or correct it's just what the authors of my music books put forward.
Although you can dance AT to almost any music, if the music doesn't contain the rhythmic features and melodic nuances of a 'tango' is it really Tango?
Does the dance adapt to the music and so develop into something similar but at the same time other?
If one spent a lot of time trying to dance AT to a 'rumba' would the steps and the timing develop and chage to fit the special features of rumba music?
Would this still be Tango, or would it be Tango Rumba like Tango Vals?

ps even nuevo tango e.g. Gotan project incorporates Tango rhythms and phrases sometimes they are more subtle than others but they are there- it's not just straight house music.

[Peaches]

Hiya, Spectator! Good to have another person around to disucss AT.

You raise a question that I've heard discussed several times--what is it that makes AT, AT?

Is AT the steps? The music? The combination? The connection?

I've heard some (very adamant) teachers say that dancing AT steps to anything other than AT music makes it not AT, and they don't know what it would be...but it definitely would not be AT. My question, then, is how does electronic tango music fit into that equation, seeing as how a lot of neo/electronic is also good for things like hustle?

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that what makes AT is the steps (I know that can get me crucified), the lack of rules regarding the steps and their order and timing (and, subsequently, the improvisational nature), and the nature of the connection.

In my mind, the music is perhaps unimportant.

Just my $.02.

[tangotime]

V. Good q.-- let me give you an e.g. from another genre. Salsa-- many times in latino clubs, the d.j. will play an authentic Colombian Cumbia. Its interesting to watch the " natives " make the transition to the true form, whilst the " rest ", carry on dancing salsa .

You may, of course, transpose most 2/4-- 4/4 rhythms to another form of dance . Does that make it right ?-- most purists would say no .

[spectator]

I think that especially when dancing in close embrace, the fact that Tango music mirrors the heart beat is what sets it apart.

Another question is if the lyrics are not about
a. gambling and losing
b. you are miserable because your mistress has fallen in love with a younger man
c. you are miserable because you have fallen in love with a rich, older man's mistress
is it really Tango music?
;)

[Dave Bailey]

True fact is Dave, majority of dancers , dont have a clue about " source ".
Truth is, I only have vague notions myself, and I've been dancing salsa over a decade now...

There's a good article on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumba) about Rumba music and dance family, and the evolution of the dance - I'm still not completely sure that salsa is a version of rumba, but at the least it's a close cousin.

[Dave Bailey]

I think that there is potential for a very interesting discussion on whether the dance is defined by the music or by the dancers.
I think it's a mutual thing - one depends on the other. Look at Nuevo Tango - both the music and the dance forms seem to have developed together.

If one spent a lot of time trying to dance AT to a 'rumba' would the steps and the timing develop and chage to fit the special features of rumba music?
Would this still be Tango, or would it be Tango Rumba like Tango Vals?
Very interesting question - I assume, if enough people danced AT to enough Rumba music, then yes, there'd be that sort of thing developing.

[tangotime]

O.K. dave, let me walk you thru the transition .

First, the music of Danzon was in 2/4 time-- the square form of rumba.

In the mid forties, the music changed to a 4/4 timing.

The box, was then opened , to a structure similar to Bolero .

From that basic dance structure , came Mambo and . of course , salsa .

The rumba clave, was then changed to suit the new structure, altho. it is still employed in some of todays written music ( that what the 2/3 to 3/2 is all about )

Hope that helps.

P.s.--Just to clarify-- the original mambo as taught in the forties ( and still today in many cases ) started mans left foot side on 1 and right foot back on 2 . thus giving the " call and response " method .

Finally , to give you some reassurance. you mentioned you have been dancing for about 10 yrs. it begs the q-- how often and with whom ? ( as a general population ) and from what influences do you dance ?-- reason -- if you had been exposed to authentic latino clubs and dancers , for the same amount of time , on a 4/5 nite a week basis, your approach would be completely different ( i believe ). Many of my students in the states were latino, and did not have a clue !!

[Dave Bailey]

{ list }
Sorry, I'm really not getting into a big argument on this - I accept you're right, and thank you for the information. :D

[Genesius Redux]

This was my question as well--are you opposed to neo/electronic AT music as a way of finding your rumba?

Oh, by no means--although I guess looking at my original post, with what I say about "traditional" orchestration, that's what it implies.

But no, I was actually assuming I'd have to go to the electronic tango stuff to get something that can be used also to dance a Rumba (by which I meant BR Rumba, btw). When I talked about traditional orchestration, what I really meant was something that featured enough of traditional instrumentation to convey the sense of the tango and its traditional setting.

And yeah, I know that I can dance AT to a lot of Rumba music. I'm looking for something a little different, like Peaches observes.

[Peaches]

Momentito...should be able to get you some names...

[Genesius Redux]

Momentito...should be able to get you some names...

I just rechecked, and was about to edit my post....

I'm sorry, Sugar, how rude of me. Can I make it up to you?

[samina]

<and GR gets an early start on his flirt...>:cool:

[Genesius Redux]

<and GR gets an early start on his flirt...>:cool:

Evidently you haven't yet read what I wrote about your new picture in the Latins in Latin-Quisp-Viking thread. ;)

[samina]

Evidently you haven't yet read what I wrote about your new picture in the Latins in Latin-Quisp-Viking thread. ;)

now i have... turns out i was right.. you were just warming up. <heh>

[Genesius Redux]

now i have... turns out i was right.. you were just warming up. <heh>

Oh, you and Peaches are both pretty good at getting me warm....

[samina]

Oh, you and Peaches are both pretty good at getting me warm....


:raisebro::raisebro::raisebro:

[Peaches]

I just rechecked, and was about to edit my post....

I'm sorry, Sugar, how rude of me. Can I make it up to you?
Baby, I don't know what you're apologizing for, but if you want to make something up to me, I can think of a few ways.

(Sugar, eh? You've been in the south too long, lol! Next thing I expect you to break out using is "Honey Child!")

[Genesius Redux]

Baby, I don't know what you're apologizing for, but if you want to make something up to me, I can think of a few ways.

(Sugar, eh? You've been in the south too long, lol! Next thing I expect you to break out using is "Honey Child!")

Actually, I was gonna say "Baby doll," but I thought you might kick my a$$.; I also use "Angel" when I'm in a Noir-type mood, or "Precious," but now that's less "Noir" and more "Silence of the Lambs."

And I was apologizing for attributing something that you wrote to someone else.

If you can think of a few ways for me to make it up, you can PM me. Or, alternatively, we can just do it here in the public forum and shock everyone.

[tangotime]

Dave, I need to make it clear to you-- these are NOT my ideas, but come from dance historians , and are well documented . I just happen to be old enough to witness and dance the changes as they occured .

Remember , all info. is only as good as its source .

[Peaches]

Actually, I was gonna say "Baby doll," but I thought you might kick my a$$.; I also use "Angel" when I'm in a Noir-type mood, or "Precious," but now that's less "Noir" and more "Silence of the Lambs."

And I was apologizing for attributing something that you wrote to someone else.

If you can think of a few ways for me to make it up, you can PM me. Or, alternatively, we can just do it here in the public forum and shock everyone.
LOL!!! I thought we were going to do it over the floor vent in your apartment. ;-)

BOT...rumba-able AT songs... (Without knowing if you're looking for Am. or Int. rumba stuff, or really what the difference is aside from tempo, and not really being able to hear the difference between rumba and bolero... I'm so useful, aren't I?)

Bajofondo Tango Club--Mi Corazon, En mi/Soledad
Narcotango--Vi Luz y Subi, Otra Luna, La Tropilla de la Zurda, Doble o Nada
Debayres--Downtown, Buenos Aires Gris, My Love is Over

That's all I can come up with from my collection on short notice. It's much easier to find rumbas that you can AT to.

[Genesius Redux]

LOL!!! I thought we were going to do it over the floor vent in your apartment. ;-)

BOT...rumba-able AT songs... (Without knowing if you're looking for Am. or Int. rumba stuff, or really what the difference is aside from tempo, and not really being able to hear the difference between rumba and bolero... I'm so useful, aren't I?)

Bajofondo Tango Club--Mi Corazon, En mi/Soledad
Narcotango--Vi Luz y Subi, Otra Luna, La Tropilla de la Zurda, Doble o Nada
Debayres--Downtown, Buenos Aires Gris, My Love is Over

That's all I can come up with from my collection on short notice. It's much easier to find rumbas that you can AT to.

I'm too shocked to reply. But I'm not running....

Thanks for the song suggestions--I'll check them out. The difference between Rumba and Bolero is mostly in tempo--but essentially, American-style Bolero goes at a similar tempo and is a somewhat similar look to Latin-style Rumba.

"Now, Rumba-ly, Rumba-ly, in my Tumba-ly, time for something sweet."

--Pooh Bear

[Peaches]

You're shocked???

You're the one who suggested your apartment floor vent to begin with! And you're the one who threatened to do it in the public forum!

[Genesius Redux]

You're shocked???

You're the one who suggested your apartment floor vent to begin with! And you're the one who threatened to do it in the public forum!

"Birds do it...
Bees do it...
Even uneducated fleas do it...
Let's do it...."