I have a question for leads - The 'rubber band' technique

[Me]

Okay guys, I asked my coach how to do this and he laughed and went to help other people, so now it's personal! (Well actually I want to see if I can learn this on my own and surprise him.)

When you lead a lady into molinete by stepping side L, front R, and then rock back L step side R front L (rotating into molinete) what is the voodoo that you do to create that almost rubber band effect that seems to begin at the front R step before going into molinete?

It's... very cool!

[Peaches]

I've got no idea what you mean. :-(

Are you talking about what feels like the drastic increase in speed between those two steps? That back step is always the one which feels the fastest.

Do you notice it happening in a counter-clockwise molinete, or only the clockwise one?

Do you find the same feeling regardless if you're doing a "swinging" vs. a "pivoting" molinete?

[newbie]

We use a very little delay between the hands and the weight. Somewhere between the front R and the backward (rock) L there is a tiny moment where the weight already moves backwards but the hands still move forward.

Hey, we leaders are smart.

[Dave Bailey]

I've got no idea what you mean. :-(
Me confused too - but that's nothing new :)

Are you talking about what feels like the drastic increase in speed between those two steps? That back step is always the one which feels the fastest.
Just to clarify - the steps are supposed to be the same size and speed aren't they? I've spent a lot of time trying to lead them all at the same speed...

[Me]

I wouldn't say that some steps are faster so much as I would say you are moving in either 1s or 3s. So, the salida would count as 1, the next step a 1, and the rest a triplet. (You know - when those annoying ballroom types say 'quick quick slow' for everything?)

As far as I know, the steps would remain the same size?

[Peaches]

Me confused too - but that's nothing new :)You and me both. ;-)

Just to clarify - the steps are supposed to be the same size and speed aren't they? I've spent a lot of time trying to lead them all at the same speed..Dunno. Seems like they should, ideally, by the same size. But the same speed...it seems like the speed has been varied on them...

[Me]

Ooh newbie that sounds cool. Tell me more!

[Tanguera]

When you lead a lady into molinete by stepping side L, front R, and then rock back L step side R front L (rotating into molinete) what is the voodoo that you do to create that almost rubber band effect that seems to begin at the front R step before going into molinete?


If I understood what you mean, it might be the result of the change of direction on a controtempo (double tempo). I get the same rubber band effect while executing a medio giro milonguero (half milonguero turn).

[Peaches]

In combination with Newbie's post...

Do you mean that odd sling-shot kind of feeling you sometimes get? I haven't decided if I like that or not...fine if I'm going to swing my free leg around (like a ronde) and the music is slow enough. But with fast music I find it harder to get a clean pivot if there's that going on.

[Peaches]

medio giro milonguero (half milonguero turn).
Wossat?

[Tanguera]

Wossat?
It's an half turn... I give a look on the web to find a video ;)

[Peaches]

It's an half turn... I give a look on the web to find a video ;)
A media luna? The side, forward, side part of a molinete?

[spectator]

Shouldn't the speed and therefore size of each step be dictated by the music at that point? I have found that the rhythm of my steps as I execute a giro changes depending on the phrase, so a giro in a Vals has a different feel to that in a Tango (depending on where it is in the music). It's still the same pattern- a circular grape vine- but the music dictates the speed of individual steps. I don't know how comprehensible this is :???: but the overall speed of the turn is dictated by the lead, just the subsections by the music although hopefully the lead would be following the music anyway!

[Tanguera]

A media luna? The side, forward, side part of a molinete?
No, a media luna is another kind of half turn.

[Peaches]

Shouldn't the speed and therefore size of each step be dictated by the music at that point? I have found that the rhythm of my steps as I execute a giro changes depending on the phrase, so a giro in a Vals has a different feel to that in a Tango (depending on where it is in the music). It's still the same pattern- a circular grape vine- but the music dictates the speed of individual steps. I don't know how comprehensible this is :???: but the overall speed of the turn is dictated by the lead, just the subsections by the music although hopefully the lead would be following the music anyway!
I'd agree with you completely.

When I was thinking of steps being the same size, or the same speed, I wasn't thinking of all molinetes. I was thinking that the steps within one molinete should be the same size. But, yeah, obviously ones to a milonga will be a different speed (and size) than ones to a moderate tango.

[bordertangoman]

I'm a bit confused as to who is stepping where. Were the steps described the man's or woman's?

The zoomiest lead I know for a molinete is to lead a backward ocho to the man's left, woman on her right foot to pivot, and I pivot on my right at the same time so her pivot goes alot further around then she goes into her normal side-forward-side steps.

[Ampster]

I'm not totally sure I understand the question. But, here's how I interpret it.

When you talk about molinetes and "Rubber Band," I'm thinking of the point in a molinete where the lead's right foot goes behind and actually initiates the molinete. Its that point where centrifugal force helps by pulling your upper torso outwards. one turn happens, slightly slows, then both of you move slightly closer. The pattern starts over, centrifugal force kicks in and... until you decide to get out of the molinete. It kinda goes SQQQQS

Was this what you were talking about?

[bordertangoman]

I'm not totally sure I understand the question. But, here's how I interpret it.


Was this what you were talking about?

I'm not totally sure I understand the question either, but I'm sure its to do with using the gravitational pull during a full moon giving the follower a comet-like accelerration!

[spectator]

I'd agree with you completely.

When I was thinking of steps being the same size, or the same speed, I wasn't thinking of all molinetes. I was thinking that the steps within one molinete should be the same size. But, yeah, obviously ones to a milonga will be a different speed (and size) than ones to a moderate tango.

That's almost what I was getting at, but it's more the individual steps within the molinete will change depending on the underlying phrase so in a tango you might have a flowing movement with each step the same size and speed, but in a vals the sQQsQQsQQ will make the side step or back step-depending on the jumping off point of the giro and the way it fits the music- quicker than the preceeding and following steps.

I think a lot of the time it can be difficult to fit the steps to the music because there is a tendency on both parts to think more about where we are stepping, than when we are stepping, especially with new leads who are more concerned with perfecting technique (often a neccessity) than listening to the music.

Perhaps the zoom is an instinctive reaction to the music, we all make little modifications to movements depending on how we feel at that moment (after all it is dance!) so maybe there is an added energy to some movements? I'm not sure I like the idea of "sling shot" because to me that would imply a loss of control or balance, would you get the same effect following without arms?

[Peaches]

I never thought about it that way.

I never really thought about how or why I time my steps the way I do. Most of the time it has never been an issue. The only times I remember it being a problem is in some lessons, when I was accused of rushing one (or more) of the steps. It caught my attention b/c it never occurred to me that I was rushing--I suppose it was if it wasn't when he wanted the weight change to happen--but I was stepping when I felt I wanted to step based on the music. (One time I knew there was a really neat little accent coming up, and I wanted to hit it on my last step...so I double-timed (traspied?) the ones in the middle to make it work.)

I'll have to pay attention for this sling-shot thing, though.

[Ampster]

... so maybe there is an added energy to some movements? I'm not sure I like the idea of "sling shot" because to me that would imply a loss of control or balance, would you get the same effect following without arms?

IME, That is exactly the point of the "Sling shot," "Rubber band effect." There is a split second in the molinete that you actually share a common pivot point with your partner (think, colgada). If you tried that without arms, you'd fall.

[Peaches]

Now there a different way of looking at it...

So many things to pay attention to next time I go milonga-ing. Thank goodness it's tomorrow night! *bounce bounce bounce*

[Ampster]

Well, the way my teacher taught this way:

In the apogee of the molinete, you are actually not upright, you are (more or less) in a sitting position. As you go into the spin, your grip on your partner firms up because youre actually pulling apart because of centrifugal force. At the end of one spin, you slow down, thus easing your hold because youre now moving slower, closer and more upright. Thus the "Rubber Band" thingy.

My teacher's analogy is two kids in the park, facing each other, holding hands, arms extended and spinning each other. Their feet are closer, their upper torsos farther back, and they're sharing the same axis (think, colgada).

[Peaches]

I would say it depends on the molinete. I can think of what you're saying if we're talking about a fluid-to-open embrace, but definitely not with a close embrace, pivoting molinete. In those cases, I find myself pushing up and into my partner (pushing isn't the right word, really), and really loosening and separating my upper and lower body. But for open, definitely. (Not to totally contradict your teacher and you years of experience over mine. ;-) )

My teacher makes me do that holding hands and circling thing. Related to colgadas, of course. I hate that exercise...

[Ampster]

I would say it depends on the molinete. I can think of what you're saying if we're talking about a fluid-to-open embracething.

Precisely!

... but definitely not with a close embrace, pivoting molinete.

Nope! That rubber band, sling shot, apogee of orbit with commet like accelaration will definitely NOT work in close embrace.


My teacher makes me do that holding hands and circling thing. Related to colgadas, of course. I hate that exercise...

Me too. I feel like I'm in some cheezey love story movie. Oh, and it eventually makes me dizzy. :bouncy:

[Peaches]

Nope! That rubber band, sling shot, apogee of orbit with commet like accelaration will definitely NOT work in close embrace. Oh. I feel silly now.

Me too. I feel like I'm in some cheezey love story movie. Oh, and it eventually makes me dizzy. :bouncy:I hadn't thought of it that way, but now that you suggest it, I'll end up with that in my head. Thanks. I just don't like the out-of-control-ness of the whole thing. I had gotten good at letting go and regaining control...but then he just switched to using a bracelet hold, which is decidedly harder to wriggle free of. And definitely with the dizzy bit.

[Steve Pastor]

Orignal Question
"When you lead a lady into molinete by stepping side L, front R, and then rock back L step side R front L (rotating into molinete) what is the voodoo that you do to create that almost rubber band effect that seems to begin at the front R step before going into molinete?"
If I read this correctly, the rock step gives the the woman forward momentum to start into the molinete.
It is possible to begin this pattern (but I thought there weren't any patterns in tango and that every step is invited) from a "dead stop", but often women don't take very energetic forward steps. The "rebound" from the rock step will usually get you a more energetic step forward.
Here's another tango paradox. We are supposed to be leading with our chest and with "intention". If you feel like you are being pulled by a rubber band I would be willing to bet good money that the leader is extending the frame by relaxing his right arm, thus letting you move a bit farther from him on the back step of the rock step. Then, when he wants that forward step he not only moves his center away from you, he contracts his right arm, pulling you forward.
This is precisely how an 8 count Whip is led in West Coast Swing. But there, there are no illusions about how it is done. You use your arms to accelerate the woman into the the slot.
Many women seem unaware of the pressure on their back when this is done in tango. I'm not the only one who has noticed this when I followed in lessons. One guy I know is trying to learn to follow, and was surprised to find out how much he was being pushed and pulled around by that right hand on the back. He told me that some of the women he talked to about this just smiled knowingly.
If you are powering women through things, how can you be letting her take her own steps? I'm not saying it is "wrong" to do this, but I think it would be nice to be clear in your thinking and how you talk and write about it.

Oh, and at least note that the moilinete differs from a grapevine in that you
collect your feet together after each step. If you you do that, then the leader has the option to lead something else, such as a reverse of direction. And, you'll be ready to move a step beyond "patternitis".

[Me]

Oh dearie me - I didn't mean to confuse everybody!

I'm thinking newbie and Steve are along the right track, at least it feels to be.

The footwork I described was for the man... I guess what is key to me is the point where he rocks to lead the lady into molinete. It involves a change of direction for the lady from walking backward (left foot) to around the man with a side step (right foot) and he does not pull her or twist her. He could quite simply move naturally and if she were to follow the 'code' it would be the only place for her to go. It's a pretty standard move that many people dance, but it seems only the 'masters' know how to generate that subtle momentum that is... well, very cool! It feels like a rubber band, or a slingshot. I as the lady salida, step back and then weeeeee okay now we're molinating. (Weeeeee being a very technical indication for the very technical sensation I dub "rubber band feeling.")

I'm very bad about saying, "Hey, you know that thing? We did it in class a few weeks ago. The man starts with salida and *insert description of what could be anything*" Drives my coach nutz! :D

[Gssh]

I am not sure of what you are trying tell, but there is one technique i know that i think could feel a little bit rubberbandy:

Maybe your leader is delaying the rockstep till shortly after the weightshift to create an in-line boleo like effect to give the rock-step a little extra glam? What could be going on could is that he actually doesn't lead the rock step as "1-L backward. 2-L forward" but as "1- L backward. 2- R backwar...oops changed my mind -2.1 L forward" so there is an impulse from the chest going forward that would relase the followers right leg, and then gets reversed. By really creating the feeling that the rock-step is a standard walk instead of telegraphing that it is a rockstep it is possible to create a tiny "hang" there.

Does this sound a bit like what you are feeling?

GSH