Sexual Harassment

[pygmalion]

Okay. Here we go with another story from my former, former studio! :lol:

One of the visiting coaches at that studio was a groper. I mean, a real groper. He subtly felt up many a student, including me. (And I have training video to prove it LOL!)

Anyway, one day, during my coaching session, he called over one of the female staff members to demonstrate a move. She literally said, "Okay, but don't touch my stomach." Jokingly, of course. They demonstrated the move, and, you guessed it. He touched her stomach. SLOWLY. Ew!

Another teacher present made some sort of joke to cover up the awkwardness of the moment, but my skin crawled for the girl.

Later, when I asked her about it, she said that yes, she was uncomfortable, but she couldn't say anything. She needed the job, and he was the visiting coach, with much more clout than she had.

What do you think of that? Do you think it was an isolated incident, or are there gropers out there in the dance world, getting away with it? Can/should anything be done?

[Vince A]

Okay. Here we go with another story from my former, former studio! :lol:

One of the visiting coaches at that studio was a groper. I mean, a real groper. He subtly felt up many a student, including me. (And I have training video to prove it LOL!)

Anyway, one day, during my coaching session, he called over one of the female staff members to demonstrate a move. She literally said, "Okay, but don't touch my stomach." Jokingly, of course. They demonstrated the move, and, you guessed it. He touched her stomach. SLOWLY. Ew!

Another teacher present made some sort of joke to cover up the awkwardness of the moment, but my skin crawled for the girl.

Later, when I asked her about it, she said that yes, she was uncomfortable, but she couldn't say anything. She needed the job, and he was the visiting coach, with much more clout than she had.

What do you think of that? Do you think it was an isolated incident, or are there gropers out there in the dance world, getting away with it? Can/should anything be done?
When I teach a class, I always condone female followers who grope . . . :wink:

Seriously . . . I am serious now. The man should be "stoned."
Decked, lights punched out, ass kicked, etc. It should not happen.

[jon]

What do you think of that? Do you think it was an isolated incident, or are there gropers out there in the dance world, getting away with it? Can/should anything be done?

If people won't defend themselves there's a limited amount other people can do for them, but maybe that would have been a good point for some of the students in the class to say something like "you're not respecting her boundaries and I don't think you will respect mine. I want my money back now." and leave the class.

[Vince A]

What do you think of that? Do you think it was an isolated incident, or are there gropers out there in the dance world, getting away with it? Can/should anything be done?

If people won't defend themselves there's a limited amount other people can do for them, but maybe that would have been a good point for some of the students in the class to say something like "you're not respecting her boundaries and I don't think you will respect mine. I want my money back now." and leave the class.
Good thoughts . . .

[pygmalion]

You're right, jon. That's exactly what I should have done. It wasn't a group class, it was a private lesson, so the responsibility was mine. I should have spoken up. That's why I ended up talking to her later -- I apologized for being such a wuss.

The thing is, I was used to a corporate America environment, where such things just don't happen. (Edit: Where such things don't happen openly and blatantly. ) I was so taken aback, that I forgot all my sexual harassment training and reacted like a deer in the headlights. The truth is, according to U.S. law, both the other teacher and I also participated in the harassment.

I hope I'm never confronted with a situation like that again, but if I am, I will speak up. People like that teacher should never be victimized that way.

[SDsalsaguy]

Beyond that though Jenn, it seems to me like you both have a bit more clout then you realized . . . especially you as the paying student. It seems to me that if something was also said to the studio who brought this coach in *and* such atrocious behavior ever happened again that they would have some culpability that I am sure they would rather avoid.

Slime like the coach in question are part of what give ballroom a somewhat seedy character in some eyes and it behooves everyone involved with ballroom and with ballroom's best interests in mind to do whatever they can to help weed out such vile and predatory persons.

[KevinL]

If people won't defend themselves there's a limited amount other people can do for them, but maybe that would have been a good point for some of the students in the class to say something like "you're not respecting her boundaries and I don't think you will respect mine. I want my money back now." and leave the class.

This was the response that I thought of, but I wonder if I would have actually done it at the time?

[pygmalion]

That's the thing. Reacting in the moment is the logical, and to me, morally right thing to do. But how many people actually do speak up? I think that's how these slimeballs get away with things. The slimeballs are brazen enough to do things, but the victims or witnesses aren't brazen enough to call them on it.

And I think it's likely everywhere out there. I doubt my experience was unique.

[pygmalion]

Disclaimer: All this is U.S. based information.

Oh yeah, and one more thing. A dance studio is a very high risk environment for sexual harassment. Lots of physical interaction. And most studios have relatively few employees. So they're exempt from the training requirements that large companies have. Large companies (with more than fifty employees I think -- it's been a while, I'll have to check) are required to have a written anti-sexual harassment policy and to administer periodic training to their employees. Small businesses don't have that requirement so people may not even know that their behavior is illegal. In my example above, the teacher who watched and made a joke, was legally liable, because he was a supervisor. He had a legal responsibility to stop the harassment. I had a moral responsibility to stop the harassment. We both failed.

[Adwiz]

She literally said, "Okay, but don't touch my stomach." Jokingly, of course. They demonstrated the move, and, you guessed it. He touched her stomach... What do you think of that?

Well, it sounds like this guy has already proven himself to be bad stuff, but I'm confused. What made the stomach an issue? My teacher touches stomach and hips. He has to! Including mine! I have no problem with that because it's part of what he has to do to demonstrate what he needs us to do, and I know with certainty that there's nothing sexual about it. He'll grab my hips and move them in the directions he wants to see me move. He'll ask me to hold onto his hip bones as he moves. He'll touch my stomach to demonstrate Cha Cha walk movements. There are moves where you have to touch your partner's stomach as part of the step. It's completely non-sexual and makes me understand things much better.

Women (and even men) are sensitive to groping and sexual harassment these days, and I believe there are good reasons to be. But what I'm seeing is an over-sensitivity that's dangerous. There are cases where women have actually won sexual harassment lawsuits by claiming that a man looked at them wrong. That's going too far and very dangerous territory for society as a whole.

My view is that touching should be fine as long is it clearly avoids those very sensitive areas of the body (and I don't really mean the stomach, though it became a sensitive body part because of the mention given), and if the teacher needs to touch the hips, belt, etc. then he/she should ask permission first.

In the example you shared, however, there is no doubt in my mind that the guy has some problems and needs to be dealt with. Since the woman specifically said NOT to touch her stomach, his lack of respect for her request was the issue, and that is grounds for a complaint.

[Vince A]

As conservative and demure that my wife is . . . I asked her about this. She said without hesitation . . . "I would have slapped his face." "Everyone would have heard it." "Everyone would have asked me what happened." "Everyone would have walked out . . . at the least the women would have."

[pygmalion]

Sure, adwiz. Stomach and hips, especially, get touched all the time. That's unavoidable.

But there's a difference between an impersonal, almost clinical touch that a reputable coach uses with a student and what I saw that day. What I saw was the visiting coach slowly caress the (young, pretty and blonde btw) teacher's stomach with an open palm, AFTER she specifically asked him not to. That's what makes it harassment. She asked him not to, and he did it anyway. :evil: Definitely a bad guy.

[SDsalsaguy]

I have to say that I am glad I wasn't there . . . I can't afford to be in prison right now! :evil:

[LatinDancer006]

Well, it sounds like this guy has already proven himself to be bad stuff, but I'm confused. What made the stomach an issue? My teacher touches stomach and hips. He has to! Including mine! I have no problem with that because it's part of what he has to do to demonstrate what he needs us to do, and I know with certainty that there's nothing sexual about it. He'll grab my hips and move them in the directions he wants to see me move. He'll ask me to hold onto his hip bones as he moves. He'll touch my stomach to demonstrate Cha Cha walk movements. There are moves where you have to touch your partner's stomach as part of the step. It's completely non-sexual and makes me understand things much better.

Women (and even men) are sensitive to groping and sexual harassment these days, and I believe there are good reasons to be. But what I'm seeing is an over-sensitivity that's dangerous. There are cases where women have actually won sexual harassment lawsuits by claiming that a man looked at them wrong. That's going too far and very dangerous territory for society as a whole.

My view is that touching should be fine as long is it clearly avoids those very sensitive areas of the body (and I don't really mean the stomach, though it became a sensitive body part because of the mention given), and if the teacher needs to touch the hips, belt, etc. then he/she should ask permission first.

In the example you shared, however, there is no doubt in my mind that the guy has some problems and needs to be dealt with. Since the woman specifically said NOT to touch her stomach, his lack of respect for her request was the issue, and that is grounds for a complaint.

Let me preface by saying that I don't condone (spelling?) harassment of any kind, especially when the person specifically made it clear that he/she does not want to be treated in a certain way. Having said that I didn't realize the middle of the abs is a sensitive area either. I've always thought that it's a closely watched, yet safe zone unless otherwise told by the lady. An inch higher or lower and you in the no fly zone. Given the sensual and suggestive nature of latin dances, I can see how this can become an issue. So, here's a list of zones. From fly as you please to no fly zone. I'll try to be as clinical as possible. Feel free to chime in as you wish.

Okay to fly zone.
-hands
-arms
-back
-shoulders
-head, but not the face
-legs from knee down

No fly zone.
-upper thigh
-anterior chest area
-posterior hip area
-anterior hip area

Closely monitor fly zone.
-abs
-sides of hips
-face

[Me]

One studio (which shall remain NAMELESS as I don't want to get sued) I used go to was owned by a homosexual who made it his game to grope and rub the females and whoot and hollar at dance socials, thinking that it was 'fun' and 'okay' because 'everybody knew he was gay.' It made the women very uncomfortable but they (including myself) were too gutless to say anything about it, and we would laugh to cover our embarrassment.

[chocolatchica]

OMG it is so uncomfotable being around let alone dancing with guys like this. When I was younger and dancing at a chain studio (by that I mean the company studios I would just rather not say where) there was an older gentleman that I hated dancing with or even being in a group class with becasue if the way he would look at me and dance with me. I told me instructor but there was little he could do because he was one of the students who really inveseted in the studio. This is just another reason why I dont really like studios like ** anymore. I was probabaly about 16 years old at the time and to this day it still creeps me out thinking about him!

[quixotedlm]

So, here's a list of zones. From fly as you please to no fly zone.


fly zone? lol!


3 weeks ago, I was dancing salsa and my hand, or rather, fingertips, ended up in the cleft of her breasts. And she was the one who did the apologizing. I've been trying to imagine how it really happened, but I just can't figure it out. I suspect it was a combination of her traveling out of her slot and trying to add an extra turn thus ending up traveling in a weird direction and thus bumping into me. So it wasn't my hand that ended up in her breast, rather it was her breast that poked into my hand... oh well...

But when it happened, we both instinctively knew that it was unambiguously her fault and it wasn't me... I was lucky it was someone who is a very adept dancer. Someone less skilled would have slapped me then and created a scene...

I've been in other similar situations where I could easily have been accused of sexual harrassment, nepotism, racism etc, mostly because I have a tendency to not be politically correct merely to sustain an image of neutrality for the sake of that image. At work, most of my women colleagues actually like me because I don't give them an easier time because they are women :). They feel like I respect them for their skills without regard for their sex...but it's easy to argue that by not giving a woman special exceptions, I'm being discriminatory... Thus far, nothing like that has happened..

I empathize with victims of harrasment. I can also see how it is really hard to win a battle when you are the victim, but I'm really glad that due process and reasonable doubt have not been taken away entirely, even though they seem to have been severely diluted in these contexts.

[fascination]

Let me preface by saying that I don't condone (spelling?) harassment of any kind, especially when the person specifically made it clear that he/she does not want to be treated in a certain way. Having said that I didn't realize the middle of the abs is a sensitive area either. I've always thought that it's a closely watched, yet safe zone unless otherwise told by the lady. An inch higher or lower and you in the no fly zone. Given the sensual and suggestive nature of latin dances, I can see how this can become an issue. So, here's a list of zones. From fly as you please to no fly zone. I'll try to be as clinical as possible. Feel free to chime in as you wish.

Okay to fly zone.
-hands
-arms
-back
-shoulders
-head, but not the face
-legs from knee down

No fly zone.
-upper thigh
-anterior chest area
-posterior hip area
-anterior hip area

Closely monitor fly zone.
-abs
-sides of hips
-face
it's not all a matter of zone...when a guy has accidentally touched an intimate area and he knows it, a decent guy will move pretty quickly and in a way that clearly reflects that, aside from whatever level of attraction he may or may not have toward you, that particular "feel" was unintentional(he gets that touching a hot stove demeanor)...or if a guy accidentally touches something and doesn't seem to notice, that is also very read-able...and some times a seeming carress can almost be absent-minded, BUT, when a guy clearly does a carress or two that linger, that aren't part of very hot open gold choreogrphy, it is obvious, and if it is not welcome, it needs to be clearly stated or he will unfortunately become emboldened .....

[fascination]

One studio (which shall remain NAMELESS as I don't want to get sued) I used go to was owned by a homosexual who made it his game to grope and rub the females and whoot and hollar at dance socials, thinking that it was 'fun' and 'okay' because 'everybody knew he was gay.' It made the women very uncomfortable but they (including myself) were too gutless to say anything about it, and we would laugh to cover our embarrassment.
that sort of silent discomfort is what thoughtless people and bullies live on

[fascination]

OMG it is so uncomfotable being around let alone dancing with guys like this. When I was younger and dancing at a chain studio (by that I mean the company studios I would just rather not say where) there was an older gentleman that I hated dancing with or even being in a group class with becasue if the way he would look at me and dance with me. I told me instructor but there was little he could do because he was one of the students who really inveseted in the studio. This is just another reason why I dont really like studios like ** anymore. I was probabaly about 16 years old at the time and to this day it still creeps me out thinking about him!let me state that no franchise has a franchise on harrassment

[tangotime]

First to quix.-- Are you bragging or complaining ?
There was a very famous world reknowned coach ( no longer alive ) who was infamous for his breach of ettiquette, and many well know couples ,had complained to all and sundry, yet the person was never reprimanded .

[fascination]

therien lies a real crucial aspect of harrassment...when the power differential makes it difficult for the victim to tell without suffering unpleasant consequences...that is why it is so particularly obnoxious...

[quixotedlm]

First to quix.-- Are you bragging or complaining ?
There was a very famous world reknowned coach ( no longer alive ) who was infamous for his breach of ettiquette, and many well know couples ,had complained to all and sundry, yet the person was never reprimanded .

Actually, the intent was neither, I was merely trying to share a thought. but if i had to pick one, i'd say that i was complaining about the atmosphere of overzealous carefulness that's forced upon me (and more generally, everyone).

To be honest, I don't have a better alternative to propose. :(

[SPratt74]

fly zone? lol!

3 weeks ago, I was dancing salsa and my hand, or rather, fingertips, ended up in the cleft of her breasts. And she was the one who did the apologizing. I've been trying to imagine how it really happened, but I just can't figure it out. I suspect it was a combination of her traveling out of her slot and trying to add an extra turn thus ending up traveling in a weird direction and thus bumping into me. So it wasn't my hand that ended up in her breast, rather it was her breast that poked into my hand... oh well...



I had this happen to me (amongst a couple of other things), but with a dance instructor. I too didn't say anything at the time, but I had always thought that he should have known better for he was an instructor, and instructors know where to put their hands. Well, you think that they should know. Maybe some don't until they are told.

It's just that I was to shy to say anything. Actually, one other student knew about it. But what could we do? What could be believed? The students or the intstructor? Oh and I've been poked at too, but you definitely know the difference between an accidental poke and a full grope.

[SPratt74]

it's not all a matter of zone...when a guy has accidentally touched an intimate area and he knows it, a decent guy will move pretty quickly and in a way that clearly reflects that, aside from whatever level of attraction he may or may not have toward you, that particular "feel" was unintentional(he gets that touching a hot stove demeanor)...or if a guy accidentally touches something and doesn't seem to notice, that is also very read-able...and some times a seeming carress can almost be absent-minded, BUT, when a guy clearly does a carress or two that linger, that aren't part of very hot open gold choreogrphy, it is obvious, and if it is not welcome, it needs to be clearly stated or he will unfortunately become emboldened .....

I have to say that I completely agree with you. I couldn't have said that better myself.

[ChaChaMama]

I would stay about from thinking about harrassment in terms of "fly zones," though I did appreciate the humor.

Remember, harassment--REAL harassment--doesn't even require touching.

I am a college professor, so let me give the classic example from my world. A student goes to a professor's office. He is not doing well in the class. He asks if there is any way he can improve his grade. The professor undresses the student with her eyes, says "Why yes, there is" and winks. "A lay for an A" is clear sexual harassment, even though no "fly zones" were breached. The power differential makes it harassment.

Conversely, it can be perfectly appropriate to breach the "fly zones" or make comments about parts of the body within the fly zones within particular contexts. One of my students once modelled for "Life Drawing" (where you draw naked people). Two students in the class were discussing their work and one said "You know, I just can't get that bit between her thighs." Within the context, this was not a sexual comment, just an observation.

Dance obviously presents unique challenges because there is so much body contact, but I think the kind of touch is more important than the body part. Let's face it: you can stroke someone's hand and communicate "I want to rip your clothes off and get busy." And if it's not welcome or not appropriate given the power relationship, that should be respected.

CCM

[Twilight_Elena]

A topic that never ceases to be of interest. My thoughts:
My (male) teacher had been trying to get through to me for some time, and when he did, I think our trust level got to where I would let him touch whatever needed to be touched (and even draw lines with pens where they needed to be drawn :p) because he wouldn't take advantage of that trust. He was a professional through and through.
On the other hand. I know people (non-dancing friends of mine) who told me that they would feel extremely uncomfortable, simply because they don't like to be touched, not even by friends. In my case, I let the (professional) touching happen. But I can see how someone else could be uncomfortable with that and I think it's easy to avoid the touching for good.
Now. Concerning OP matters (i.e. groping teachers), it's bad. And when the teacher is a big name, it's even worse. Might I add the subject of groping students as well? (if it's not a hijack) As a teacher, I have corrected the frame and hold a hundred times when a male student's right palm accidentally (?) touched something more than the shoulderblade (see: breast). It's getting creepy.

T_E

[fascination]

yea, there is innappropriate touching and there is harrassment...as ChaChaMama says, the harrassment lies in the power differential...if saying no can cost you your job, or your placement or whatever...

[Medira]

Boundaries are boundaries. They aren't the same from person to person. The fact that some people don't understand why the instructor doing the demo with the coach wouldn't want her stomach touched shouldn't be an issue. If it's an area of her body that she isn't entirely comfortable with, then she may not want attention drawn to it. If she doesn't know the coach that well, or isn't comfortable with what she does know from her interactions with him, then she's well within her rights to ask him not to touch her stomach. If she had just had her belly button pierced, the area might have been tender and thus she didn't want anything brushing against it. There could be any one of a number of reasons why she wouldn't want that contact. The reason shouldn't matter. The reason shouldn't even be an issue. She didn't want that kind of contact. He initiated it anyway. He violated her request. It is harassment.

[fascination]

yes, medira...sorry if that seemed to be implied otherwise.... you are of course right...i.e anytime someone specifically says, "I do not want to be touched that way" and it continues they are being harrassed and it is inappropriate...I only meant to emphasize (however poorly) that there is a certain element that preys on situations wherein the other has no real power to even say that much...but you are, of course, correct

[quixotedlm]

yea, there is innappropriate touching and there is harrassment...as ChaChaMama says, the harrassment lies in the power differential...if saying no can cost you your job, or your placement or whatever...


The power differential is not in itself the defining characteristic of harassment. Because if it were, then instances of harassment by a less powerful person would no longer have recourses. Suppose an employee makes unwelcome and persistant advances at his (or her) manager, would it not constitute harassment?

The power differential, when combined with sexual harassment, leads to sexual discrimination. When a more powerful person (manager) sexually harasses a less powerful person (employee), and assuming that he manager is not a bisexual equal opportunity offender, it makes the workplace easier to navigate for one gender and harder for the other. This constitutes discrimiation.

For for simple harassment to exist, the power differential is not a requisite.

[Masaya]

So far it seems like everyone is only talking about guys harrassing girls, but I definitely think that in dancing, there are many cases of girls harrassing guys as well . . .

[quixotedlm]

So far it seems like everyone is only talking about guys harrassing girls, but I definitely think that in dancing, there are many cases of girls harrassing guys as well . . .

well, just stop asking her to dance. or turn her down...

[Medira]

yes, medira...sorry if that seemed to be implied otherwise.... you are of course right...i.e anytime someone specifically says, "I do not want to be touched that way" and it continues they are being harrassed and it is inappropriate...I only meant to emphasize (however poorly) that there is a certain element that preys on situations wherein the other has no real power to even say that much...but you are, of course, correct

No worries! :) My last post was actually in response to a couple of posts which seemed to leave that point out.

[Medira]

So far it seems like everyone is only talking about guys harrassing girls, but I definitely think that in dancing, there are many cases of girls harrassing guys as well . . .

There is, definitely. I think it was more directed to guys harassing girls because that was the context of the original post.

[kayak]

The thing is, I was used to a corporate America environment, where such things just don't happen. (Edit: Where such things don't happen openly and blatantly. ) I was so taken aback, that I forgot all my sexual harassment training and reacted like a deer in the headlights. The truth is, according to U.S. law, both the other teacher and I also participated in the harassment.

My VP got caught having sex on the stairs with his secretary and got promoted. Not much more blatant than that.

[chocolatchica]

So far it seems like everyone is only talking about guys harrassing girls, but I definitely think that in dancing, there are many cases of girls harrassing guys as well . . .
Yeah that actually happened to my ex who was a dance instructor quite often

[Medira]

My VP got caught having sex on the stairs with his secretary and got promoted. Not much more blatant than that.

*blink*

Wow.

What happened to the secretary?

[Masaya]

well, just stop asking her to dance. or turn her down...

Yes, sorry . . . I think what I was trying to point out is that (and I'm sure this happens to girls as often as it happens to guys) especially in social dance situations, there's a fine line between making a girl feel like you are really enjoying dancing with her, and accidentally giving her the wrong impression. If the girl then does something uncomfortable, it's hard for the guy to just stop dancing with her because until that point, you've been trying very hard to give her a good time and the two of you have been getting along well.

[SPratt74]

So far it seems like everyone is only talking about guys harrassing girls, but I definitely think that in dancing, there are many cases of girls harrassing guys as well . . .

My instructor could tell you countless stories that he's gone through over the years. Some are actually funny when he tells them, but of course deep down they aren't funny to him, only to us that are listening to him just because of the way he tells his stories. (I just can't believe what some women are willing to try lol.) But I can tell he's not happy with a few women that he's taught over the years. So, yes it can happen to men as well as women.

[quixotedlm]

Yes, sorry . . . I think what I was trying to point out is that (and I'm sure this happens to girls as often as it happens to guys) especially in social dance situations, there's a fine line between making a girl feel like you are really enjoying dancing with her, and accidentally giving her the wrong impression. If the girl then does something uncomfortable, it's hard for the guy to just stop dancing with her because until that point, you've been trying very hard to give her a good time and the two of you have been getting along well.


That's not harassment. By nature, harassment is repetitive or chronic (although there are contexts where a single incidence can be construed as harassment). What you are describing is the expression of interest... becasue of misinterpreted signals. And yes, every time someone expreses interest and that feeling is not mutual, the disinterested party also feels awkward/awful. That's just proof that dating/love/romance is complex and difficult. But that's certainly not harassment.

[Me]

Going back to the very original post, the one regarding the coach touching the female instructor’s stomach – I’m not sure this falls under the category of harassment so much as it falls under the category of power play. He viewed the teacher’s condition of, “As long as you do not touch my stomach” as a challenge to his authority in front of a room full of students, and he blatantly caressed her to reassert his position of power and save face.

Regardless of his intent (to harass, demean, or assert control) it was very wrong to do. I wouldn’t have that person back, ever.

[cornutt]

That's not harassment. By nature, harassment is repetitive or chronic

Legally, a single instance is potentially prosecutable. I have first-hand knowledge on that.

[tangotime]

It was a JOKE !!

[dgcasey]

Going back to the very original post, the one regarding the coach touching the female instructor’s stomach

One of the things that's never brought up here in this thread is what kind of move did the instructor ask the woman to demonstrate with him? And why was she so against it? Obviously it was a move where he would have occassion to touch her stomach or she probably wouldn't have said anything. But, as you all know, there are plenty of moves out there that pretty much require the touching of your partner's stomach.

I just did a showcase last weekend with my dance partner and we did a waltz that, at one point had us doing a runaround with our right arms across the front of the other's body. I touched her stomach, she touched mine and we both lived through it.

Was this woman pregnant and not wanting to have some guy she didn't know touch her there? Is she overweight and uncomfortable about that kind of contact? Was she wearing clothes that exposed her midriff causing contact to bare skin? Was she like, 18-years-old and he was mid-forties and she just found it gross to be touched there by a man as old as her father?

I'm sorry, but we just didn't have nearly enough information about the incident to make any kind of judgment.

Now, if he was demonstrating a simple UAT and his hand found its way to her stomach, well, she probably has a right to complain. Especially if she had seen enough of him to know beforehand that he would try that, but something tells me that this is not the circumstances that led to the incident.


:confused:

[fascination]

here's the thing...the thread is quite old and I don't even know if OP is around to answer that...but I beleive, based upon what I did read, that we are talking about someone who voiced discomfort and was ignored, making your question not as relevant IMO...make sense?...I mean harrassment aside, when you are dancing w/ someone and they say "could you please NOT....." most considerate dancers will make every attempt to refrain....especially the ones that are advanced enough to make those sort of modifications rather easily, which I believe is the case here

[ChaChaMama]

The power differential is not in itself the defining characteristic of harassment. Because if it were, then instances of harassment by a less powerful person would no longer have recourses. Suppose an employee makes unwelcome and persistant advances at his (or her) manager, would it not constitute harassment?

.....

For for simple harassment to exist, the power differential is not a requisite.

I definitely agree that a power differential does not have to exist in order for sexual harassment to take place. I was merely trying to point that touching does not have to exist in order for sexual harassment to take place. Words alone can be sexual harassment, and in some cases, a context in which there is a power differential make the words it harassment.

For example, there would be a big difference between me asking a 21-year-old student in one of my classes who is expecting a grade from me out for a drink and me asking a 21-year-old unaffiliated with my college out for a drink, even though the words used might be the same. The student might feel he risks repercussions from saying "No," and that pressure is unacceptable. (That's not to say I have never treated students to drinks, but I treat a whole class of graduating seniors upon completion of their senior seminar essays, not an individual person 1-on-1!)

****

Fascination makes what I feel is an excellent point in her most recent comment: any time contact is KNOWN TO BE UNWANTED and a person persists in engaging in it, that is harassment. It really doesn't matter whether other people feel that this person's standards are reasonable or not. If person X says to person Y "I don't want you rubbing suntan lotion on my back," it really isn't up to us to say "But it's just your back! I certainly wouldn't mind if person Y rubbed suntan lotion on MY back." It is person X's body, and person X's call.

[SPratt74]

here's the thing...the thread is quite old and I don't even know if OP is around to answer that...but I beleive, based upon what I did read, that we are talking about someone who voiced discomfort and was ignored, making your question not as relevant IMO...make sense?...I mean harrassment aside, when you are dancing w/ someone and they say "could you please NOT....." most considerate dancers will make every attempt to refrain....especially the ones that are advanced enough to make those sort of modifications rather easily, which I believe is the case here

I agree. I actually like my instructor's ways of doing things. Even though he's been teaching for years, every time he moves no matter what move he does, he tells me exactly where he's going to put his hand or whatever etc., and asks if it's ok to do so, and I appreciate it because of what I've been through even though I do have to laugh a bit, because he sounds so silly describing everything he does when we might have been through the step fifty times already lol. But I can see where he's getting at, and I think that's a very professional way of doing things. I'm sure that he's probably had women tell him don't touch me there too, so this is his way of warning us what he's going to do next. But also the more he describes the moves, the more it helps me remember the moves better, so I'm not against that type of teaching at all.

[Sagitta]

hmmm....I remember the female feeling uncomforatble a while back based on how this guy was dancing with her. And rescuing her etc...The reason that I now know is that little spot above the buttocks. That's where his hand was.

[chachachikka]

OMG it is so uncomfotable being around let alone dancing with guys like this. When I was younger and dancing at a chain studio (by that I mean the company studios I would just rather not say where) there was an older gentleman that I hated dancing with or even being in a group class with becasue if the way he would look at me and dance with me. I told me instructor but there was little he could do because he was one of the students who really inveseted in the studio. This is just another reason why I dont really like studios like ** anymore. I was probabaly about 16 years old at the time and to this day it still creeps me out thinking about him!

Hm... ya, actually, that is something I've been battling with for a bit, studios that are great but have one or two people that make me uncomfortable, that are major clients of the studio. So, because I know they are a major customer for them, and there's nothing I can do about it, I stop going to a studio that I otherwise would love. But silly thing is, I could be just as big a client for them... if I weren't uncomfortable going. It's a conundrum. I have yet to find a studio that doesn't have at least one "creep".

[Peaches]

It's interesting this thread was revived. I was recently having a discussion with a friend of mine about what constitutes sexual harassment/inappropriate touching.

We both take the same group classes--I've been at this for 2 years, she started about 2 months ago. There's one guy in class who has a really really hard time. He tries, god love him, but still struggles. My friend was complaining to me that he creeped him out b/c in one step (don't remember name--rhythm move, partners walk towards each other offset, and then walk around each other, have usually seen it end with a...natual opening out?) he always ended up brushing/touching her chest with his right arm.

I'd never noticed anything. Then again, I've come to realize I don't notice what's touching where anymore, most of the time. So, the next lesson I made it a point to pay attention. Yep, she was getting brushed, as was I. I'm 99.999% sure it wasn't intentional--he was just focused on other things and letting his arms fall too far back relative to his body. I didn't see anything different about how he danced with her compared to anyone else--and other followers seemed to be having the same "issue." And, yet, I never noticed anything or felt icky or felt up, while she did.

To me, it just goes to show that sexual harassement can be complicated yet further (beyond the power differential, what's touching where, implied v. expressed boundaries, verbal v. nonverbal v. physical) by the interpretation of the victim/recipient. Such an amazingly complicated issue, especially in the world of dance. Often, it feels like the only guiding principle for determining "is it, or isn't it?" comes down to "you know it when you encounter it." But then a situation like my friend's comes along, and you're back at square one again.

[LatinDancer006]

It's interesting this thread was revived. I was recently having a discussion with a friend of mine about what constitutes sexual harassment/inappropriate touching.

We both take the same group classes--I've been at this for 2 years, she started about 2 months ago. There's one guy in class who has a really really hard time. He tries, god love him, but still struggles. My friend was complaining to me that he creeped him out b/c in one step (don't remember name--rhythm move, partners walk towards each other offset, and then walk around each other, have usually seen it end with a...natual opening out?) he always ended up brushing/touching her chest with his right arm.

I'd never noticed anything. Then again, I've come to realize I don't notice what's touching where anymore, most of the time. So, the next lesson I made it a point to pay attention. Yep, she was getting brushed, as was I. I'm 99.999% sure it wasn't intentional--he was just focused on other things and letting his arms fall too far back relative to his body. I didn't see anything different about how he danced with her compared to anyone else--and other followers seemed to be having the same "issue." And, yet, I never noticed anything or felt icky or felt up, while she did.

To me, it just goes to show that sexual harassement can be complicated yet further (beyond the power differential, what's touching where, implied v. expressed boundaries, verbal v. nonverbal v. physical) by the interpretation of the victim/recipient. Such an amazingly complicated issue, especially in the world of dance. Often, it feels like the only guiding principle for determining "is it, or isn't it?" comes down to "you know it when you encounter it." But then a situation like my friend's comes along, and you're back at square one again.

The move sounds like a lockstep (or openbreak if it's salsa) into backspot turn with the openning out at the end. If the couple is not correctly facing each other or offset too far from each other, it's hard for the leader to reach around her to place his hand on her shoulder blade, her back. Hence, there will be some brushing or touching. However, from what you've described, it doesn't sound like this guy is a creep. If you ask the instructor to help him with the move and tell him to watch out for any unintentional and unwanted touching, I'm sure he'll stop. If he doesn't, then yeah he's harrasing her.

[Peaches]

Yeah, that about sounds familiar.

From doing this in private lessons, I've come to realize that body angles have a lot to do with it. When it was first introduced to me, I wasn't keeping myself aligned enough to my partner/teacher, letting my right shoulder break back, and yeah...there was some brushing going on. But I learned to do it more correctly, and that's helped.

With this guy, I know our teacher has worked with him a bit on it. But at this point, there are bigger problems than body angles not being right. I REALLY don't think he's a creep--he's just having a hard time of it. Besides, his hands have never strayed (to waist/hip), his eyes don't wander, he doesn't make off comments. I'm sure he'd stop if he could--I just don't think he's able, at this point, to think about THAT in addition to everything else.

I also think, at this point, that she's unused to the contact the comes with dancing. She's still finding it a bit odd to "hold hands" with a guy as he leads her onto the floor. (Granted, I'm getting further in the other direction. I don't particularly notice the chest contact in close embrace AT anymore.)

[liangjz]

My VP got caught having sex on the stairs with his secretary and got promoted. Not much more blatant than that.

Ouch. I've heard of people getting promoted for incompetence.. that happens all the time, but never for sexual impropriety.. Then again, he's the VP.


From what I've seen and what I'm reading here, the problem seems to be a combination between miscommunication on both sides and stubborness on the part of the harasser. I guess applies to most forms of harassment.

A lot of people really don't know what they're doing is harassment and can be insanely stubborn about it. I find it strangely similar to the smelly person problem. Some people are just convinced they don't smell bad or that they don't smell THAT bad. If you contradict them, they just get hurt or think you're joking. It's not as insulting because they just smell bad.

Now take this to the groping problem. Lots of people just think the groping they do is not that bad. I used to have a boss at a resturant who would pinch my a** while I worked. To this day, I do not really know what was going through his head.

The problem here is that the person has the base assumption that whatever gropping/harassment they do is "not that bad". Everything else in the world that they see/hear/read revolves around this assumption and it's amazing how their world view can shift to make the base assumption always true.

My idea/suggestion is one that I think is the most effective way to get around this:
- confront directly - if the person is being stubborn, he/she doesn't need
any more excuses to make light of the situation
- confront calmly - you're probably angry. I was angry. The problem is that
if you confront while angry, they might attribute it to something else
making you angry
- be specific - tell him/her exactly what behavior is bothering you.
sometimes people just think the behavior is ok.
- if needed, make real tangible action/threats -

Ok.. this is a reflection of my
personality as much as anything else, but I personally think it adds
weight to any argument. Say a guy is pinching the butts of 10 employees
and 2 complain. How will he know, assuming he lacks the judgement to
figure it out, that the complains are real and serious. Well, you could
threaten to quit. You could threaten to sue. You could threaten to
go to the press. etc..
If you're a customer, student at a studio, then you could threaten to
take lessons elsewhere.


Ok, those examples are pretty extreme and most of us would never take
such action, but some action is often needed if you want to resolve the
situation.

You could walk off in the middle of a lesson.

Say, "I really don't want you to <fill in the blank> I like you as an instructor, but this can't continue. [more stuff here] I'm going to leave to give you time to think about this."


If there's strong enough sentiment, you could work with the other employees to arrange a 1-day or half-day strike. That can take a lot of work, but it can also have a huge impact. If 4 employees don't show up for a day, he/she'll get the idea that people are serious.