Dance Sport College

[pygmalion]

Check this out. I found (by accident in google of course :lol: ) a college which offers Associates, Bachelors, Masters and PhD degrees and dance certifications by distance learning for ballroom dancers. Their stated mission is "to evaluate the ability and dance knowledge of current professional and semi-professional dancers and instructors who desire to earn an online diploma or accredited degree in ballroom dance."

There's a portfolio assessment, and the degree requirements look to be pretty stringent. Anyone have thoughts on this?

dancesportcollege

[tasche]

Well the prices are reasonable if its legit. I guess if we're spending as much on dnace lessons we might as well get something out of it but what do this mean exactly

Some graduates enjoy the benefits of having their degree "legalized or authenticated" by having them "Apostilled." Countries that are Members of the Hague Conference will recognize your degree as being authentic once it is Apostilled. The Apostille is accepted in 59 countries.

Apostillation consists of a notarized document which is attached to your degree, stating that the attached degree document has been fully earned, approved and granted, and the Apostille Document, signed and sealed by the secretary of state or embassy for the attachment of the Apostille.

[pygmalion]

Apparently it's legalization of a document.

[tasche]

So without that your degree doesn't actually mean anything. Incidently this degree is issued out of west africa.

Hmm I wonder if I need to get my foreign degree "legallized" ( not that it would do men much good but still)

[pygmalion]

Not necessarily, tasche. I couldn't find apostille in any of the unabridged dictionaries on line, so I looked up a legal service that issues apostilles ( in this case, in California), and here's what I found on their FAQ page.

What is an Apostille used for?
Most people within the USA may not even know what an Apostille is. This is because Apostilles are only for international verification of the signature on your document. For use of your document within the USA, an apostille is unnecessary and irrelevent.

It is also important to understand that an Apostille certificate is issued by the California state government for documents which have signed by an Calfornia state official. You cannot request a California Apostille of your documents if your documents have been signed by a government official in Texas for example. You would need to obtain an Texas Apostille from the government of Texas instead.

So apparently, an apostille is some sort of verification that, while a document was issued somewhere else, it's still valid and in this case, accredited.

[tasche]

ah ok so its really jsut something to give an already questionable degree more authenticity. I got my degree from a major university my home country NZ so I shouldn;t need to do any of that smoke and mirrors stuff

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: Tell us how you really feel about it! :lol:

Seriously, though. If the school is legit, which could easily be checked, couldn't this be a great opportunity for a lot of dance instructors out there who may have skipped college to get an accredited degree for the work they've done for years? That's actually quite common now. There are many online universities these days, and most of them offer some sort of portfolio assessment option. Not necessarily smoke and mirrors at all.

The only difference here is that what's being assessed is dance experience. Or am I wrong? Is this just another piece of cardboard that will never get taken seriously?

[lindy jihad]

going to school for dance?!
thats almost as silly as going to school for photography.. :lol:

[tasche]

well just taking into account that the certificate will say dancesport college it doesn't sound that impressive. An to me the fact that its a portfolio assesment as opposed toa degree that measures and follows your growth. All you gain is the certificate everything else skills etc you already have to ahve. The school doesn't help you develop in anyway

[SDsalsaguy]

Degree/no degree. In this case I really don't see the point. There are some disciplines (primarily academic ones) where a degree matters, but even here this isn't always the case. A there isn't an educational requirement to be a poet laureate, for example. What matters in this case is one's poetry. And this same sort of dynamic strikes me as applicable to dance. If I'm evaluating you as a dancer and/or dance instructor than I'll judge that based on your dancing/teaching, not on some piece of paper.

[Note: this strikes me as a different issue then that of credentialing . . . for which we have a different thread already going! :wink: ]

[pygmalion]

Actually, no, the degree wouldn't say dancesport college. (LOL I read through the whole web site carefully before posting this thread.) The assessment would be done by dancesport college, but the degree would be conferred by St. Regis University, a state accredited University in South Africa.

I guess the reason I started this thread is that I personally know at least twenty experienced dance instructors, only two of whom have a college degree. ( One has an AA, the other a Ph.D.) Just figured it would be interesting to talk about.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and the other thing ... What happens to dance teachers after they quit teaching? For health reasons, burnout or whatever, they move on. So what happens to them if they have no degree of any sort -- lots of experience, but no degree?

[Porfirio Landeros]

Hmmm, but after only studying dance, whether or not he or she has a degree that confirms this, would this experience/degree help the ex-dancer make a significant leap into another job market (i.e. database management, medicine, grociery store picketer)?

Unless the ex-dancer has a liberal arts education or diversified during the dance career into other ventures, it seems he or she would be starting practically from scratch.

Hopefully dance teachers consider burnout, health, and injury during the course of their careers.

[pygmalion]

Yup, Porfirio. That's why I posted this thread. I bet a lot of dance teachers will see it, and I hope they'll think about the implications.

Dance as a profession is tough. Physically and mentally tough. And it can't hurt to have a backup plan. A Bachelor's degree in ballroom dance is, at least in my mind, better than no degree at all, if you're suddenly forced to look for a job, because of injury, downsizing (i.e. poor economy) or whatever.

[Porfirio Landeros]

I believe the ballroom dance degree from BYU is a hybrid of business and dance. I don't think you can lose with that kind of a program. Maybe an alumnus will post here and tell us about it...

[DancingMommy]

Oh yeah, and the other thing ... What happens to dance teachers after they quit teaching? For health reasons, burnout or whatever, they move on. So what happens to them if they have no degree of any sort -- lots of experience, but no degree?

Well, Dance Teacher magazine, Dance Spirit magazine and Dance magazine have devoted many many articles to what happens to dancers after their career in dance is over.

For many, they transition into teaching or choreography or dance physiology, etc. I know this applies mainly to your typical "dance" styles, but I could see how it might also apply in the ralm of ballroom as well.

For me, I'm in the process of developing products geared towards dancers (in general). I'd rather do that than spend umteen hours on my feet (and away from the kiddies). I can work from home and on my own time. :)

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I was hoping this thread would get interesting. :D 8) The reason I started it is because it's a complicated issue, and I think we could discuss a lot of implications, here.

In my mind, we could touch on a bunch of things -- the relative values of distance learning, the value of a technical/practical degree versus an academic one, the value of life experience, whether dancers need degrees at all, what kinds of career backup plans dancers and teachers need, if any. Lots of good stuff here.

I guess I'll tackle distance learning first. tasche is right. There are a lot of fly-by-night diploma mills out there that undermine the value of those of us who took the time to get real credentials. And then there are reputable universities, such as MIT, the University of Miami, University of Colorado, University of Florida, Purdue University, and the list goes on and on. These schools also offer distance learning, with requirements equivalent to a traditional degree. And then there are many schools in between, some accredited, some not.

To me, this is another situation where caveat emptor applies. Do the homework before deciding to pursue anything, but especially a degree. It would be a shame to waste the money on a worthless degree.

That said, I guess my next question is, do dancers and other dance professionals really need a degree? Or is professional certification enough? Anyone care to comment?

[Sarah]

That said, I guess my next question is, do dancers and other dance professionals really need a degree? Or is professional certification enough? Anyone care to comment?

I tend to assume that a qualification on paper indicates that a set of skills or knowledge have been tested for and found to exist in a paticular entity (could be an individual or a team of some sort). Interpreting the relevance of that qualification is not necessarily straightforward, ie what is tested may not be the same as what is claimed to be tested, which may be different again to what the general public assume is tested.....
I also think that paticularly in the US the tertiary degree is overemphasised and overvalued. For me the appropriate and relevant professional certification
means more than a degree for a degree's sake.

WRT the South African degree in question....

The question I would ask is what does the offered degree indicate over and above the dance teacher's curriculum vitae? If you were looking for a dance instructor or a coach, at what level would their holding this paticular qualification tip the balance between your hiring them over someone else?

The same question holds for their post-dance career. If you were looking to employ an older person how much weight would you attach to this degree over and above other evidence of them being a skilled dance teacher (for example the competition record of their students) or of being a competent manager (ran a commercially successful studio for a number of years) or whatever other skills you were hiring them for.

Personally, I think that giving any weight to this sort of 'qualification by portfolio' is a case of mistaking the map for the territiory. I would also be a bit suspicious of anyone who felt the need to legitimise their life/work experience in this way.

Cheers
Sarah

[ricodancer]

A mail order dance degree from West Africa. I wonder if it's the same people who send me the daily spam, which is always a variation on: "Dear Friend- I am former _________ (Vice President, Treasurer, ex-Dictator's girlfriend, whatever) of _________ (fill in small African nation), and I need your assistance in transferring $______________(ridiculous amount) in US dollars, by the grace of God, if you are willing, etc., etc.

Anyone else ever get these?

[pygmalion]

Actually, when I started this thread, I was thinking more about questions like these. See if any of this stuff piques your interest.

What role does youth and the need to capitalize on it play in keeping dancers away from university? What is the value, in or out of the dance world, of dance certification? Are there any scenarios in which a dancer, dance teacher, or studio owner might benefit from higher education? Are there fields of study that are more beneficial than others? Exercise physiology? Dance? Business? Marketing? Do young dancers today face higher standards in terms of higher education than their older counterparts? What happens to an older, undegreed dancer who chooses to make a career change late in life? Does a degree or lack of it affect entree into the dance world? How about the non-dance world?

Thoughts, anyone? And feel free to address the million questions I missed. :lol:

[ricodancer]

Regarding the usefulness of legitimate degrees in dance- B.A., B.F.A., M.A., M.F.A. etc. the consensus of San Francisco dance glitterati with whom I have spoken on this subject (including some who hold these degrees) is that the advantage of the degree is primarily for those seeking teaching positions, particularly at the secondary or college level. As far as achieving success as a choreographer, I think the overwhelming consensus is that it is the quality of the work, not the letters after the choreographer's name, that counts. The major adjudicated dance festival in San Francisco, Summerfest, uses committee adjudication and the name of the choreographer (and hence their education level) is not even known to the adjudicators, in order to prevent favoritism. Most of my dancers have received their most recent training in universities, but I have also auditioned dancers with university degrees in dance whom I felt were not strong enough to perform our choreography. I think college dance programs do provide structure, discipline, and hopefully build a sense of professionalism and RELIABILITY (which in my opinion equals skill and passion as an essential trait).

[pygmalion]

Thanks for the interesting comments, ricodancer! :D

The major adjudicated dance festival in San Francisco, Summerfest, uses committee adjudication and the name of the choreographer (and hence their education level) is not even known to the adjudicators, in order to prevent favoritism.

Does this imply that there is some favoritism toward those who are known to hold degrees? (No agenda in asking -- I honestly don't know.)


Most of my dancers have received their most recent training in universities, but I have also auditioned dancers with university degrees in dance whom I felt were not strong enough to perform our choreography.

Is this different than in the past? Are more and more dancers going the college route? Or is it stiill pretty much a mix?

[pygmalion]

Another thought. A few years ago, one of my colleague's daughters was invited to join a major ballet company as a professional dancer at age seventeen. There was a major family uproar, but they finally decided to allow her to take the opportunity, if she promised to return to college if/when her time with the ballet company ended.

This may be more pertinent with a ballerina than a ballroom dancer since bellerinas' careers seem to be so much shorter, but I think the scenario has some bearing on this discussion.

[pygmalion]

And another thought. At my former dance studio, the manager was a very good and shrewd business woman with twenty years dance experience. She had a high school education, and she ran the business very well. But she had some recurrent business problems. My signnificant other at the time has an MBA (plus a PhD -- stinker! :lol: ) Anyway, after a few conversations with me, he put together a pretty workable plan of ways in which she could maintain and grow her business, create visibility, create unique branding and increase customer satisfaction. Bear in mind he had no dance experience, just an MBA.

Hmm.

[Sarah]

And another thought. At my former dance studio, the manager was a very good and shrewd business woman with twenty years dance experience. She had a high school education, and she ran the business very well. But she had some recurrent business problems. My signnificant other at the time has an MBA (plus a PhD -- stinker! :lol: ) Anyway, after a few conversations with me, he put together a pretty workable plan of ways in which she could maintain and grow her business, create visibility, create unique branding and increase customer satisfaction. Bear in mind he had no dance experience, just an MBA.

Hmm.

My question would be how would a dance-focussed or even your plain old I-dunno-what-I'm-gonna-do-with-my-life liberal arts degree have enabled your friend to sort out her own buisness problems without the advice of a person trained specifically in that field?

Cheers
Sarah

[pygmalion]

Yup, Sarah. Hence my question about what fields of study for higher education, if any, would be most useful for dancers, dance teachers, and studio owners. :)

Is the choice of whether or not to get a degree, and if so, what kind, influenced by future career goals? Is there a degree or degree program out there that leaves options open?

[LindyKeya]

Brigham Young University, in Provo, UT, offers a BA in dance with an emphasis in Ballroom Dance. That's probably a much more legitimate degree, but again, what's the point?

And as far as dance degrees in general go, sometimes they can be helpful in getting a job. The University of Utah's Ballet program is very highly rated, and many alumni of that program get jobs with professional ballet companies upon graduating. By going to a top Ballet School (whether part of a university or not), I'm sure a dancer would improve his/her chances of getting a job in a professional company.

But with ballroom dance? Are there any professional companies in the US? And no dance studio would ever even consider requesting potential teachers if they have a degree in the field! :roll:

[KevinL]

What fields of study for higher education, if any, would be most useful for dancers,

Dance classes are the most obvious answer, of course, but I would add: physiology (The biological study of the functions of living organisms and their parts.), kinesiology (The study of the anatomy, physiology, and mechanics of body movement, especially in humans) and nutrition (The science or study that deals with food and nourishment, especially in humans)

dance teachers,

All of the above, plus "teaching"class, like an education degree.

and studio owners.

All of the above, plus business courses.

Is the choice of whether or not to get a degree, and if so, what kind, influenced by future career goals?

Future career goals? How many people (at the age where they decide to go to college or not) know what they are going to be doing ten years later? I didn't know what I would be doing when I finished college until I actually finished college. I didn't know what I would be doing when I finished my Masters in Microbiology and Molecular Genetics, until I got the degree, and 10 years later I certianly never expected to be working this hard to trade careers from scientist to dance instructor!

Is there a degree or degree program out there that leaves options open?

Lots of liberal arts degrees leave things open, but that hardly matters because what does matter is what you do with what you learned that matters. I've got a friend who was a theatre major in college, but she now runs the computer system for a major electrical utility. Another friend was a chemistry major until she switched to dance instructor. What you do to get the degree might be important, but the actual degree sometimes isn't.

Brigham Young University, in Provo, UT, offers a BA in dance with an emphasis in Ballroom Dance. That's probably a much more legitimate degree, but again, what's the point?

According to thier website the degrees also cover other specialities. From the point of view of a dancer, I can definitely see the advantage of taking 3-4 credit classes in dance. 3 credits of Bronze Standard, and 3 credits of Bronze Latin? That level of time commitment would be great for the development of a ballroom dancer, espcially if you continued through the whole series and ended up with 55(?) credit hours of dance experience.

And no dance studio would ever even consider requesting potential teachers if they have a degree in the field!

I don't understand, please explain what you mean...

Kevin

[pygmalion]

BYU keeps coming up in conversation. A question, then. Are there other Universities out there that have a reputable dance, dance teaching, or dance management curriculum?

[pygmalion]

This is cool. I should read dance magazines more often. I found a non-profit organization which specializes in helping dancers make transitions into other careers, after their dance careers end.

http://www.careertransition.org

[pygmalion]

I finally finished reading my January local USABDA newsletter.

As it turns out, a local woman who has successfully run a high school ballroom dance education program for the past five years, has been banned from doing it next year, because she lacks a degree in ballroom dance.

She has a degree in education, but, due to Florida regulations,the degree has to be in ballroom dance for her to teach ballroom dance. The irony is, of course, that very few of the local teachers hold a four year degree in dance of any sort, and those that do, are too busy with their dance careers to become high school teachers.

So, unless something major changes, the program will end over this issue.

Hmm.

[Porfirio Landeros]

I guess I'm bringing this topic back to life, by doing some research on the parent university issuing the ballroom degree.

There's quite an exchange at these forums, about the legitimacy of Liberian degrees:

http://www.online-college.info/article491.html

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?70/5617

I guess the best way to get accredited in ballroom dancing is through one of the major dance testing organizations: ISTD, NDTA, DVIDA, etc., or apply to BYU ;-)

[pygmalion]

Thanks for the info, Porfirio. 8) I'll take a look at the discussion.

[pygmalion]

Wow. Those threads were really enlightening. It just reinforced in my mind the need to be carful and do the research before going for any degree, dance or otherwise.

A couple things I feel I should say, here. One. There are TONS of legitimately accredited online degrees and certificate programs from real, legitimate universities. I know nothing about ST. Regis, so I can't talk about that one.

Two, Liberia? I'd be very careful, there. Liberia is a country that has been torn by internal political strife, civil war, uprisings, a huge influx of refugees, and a culture which encourages bribes, etc. I'd be VERY careful about pursuing a degree from a Liberian University, particularly from a distance. However, that said, Africa is not one huge monolithic entity. It's a continent made up of dozens of independently governed countries, so what can be said about Liberia doesn't necessarily apply to all African countries. It's caveat emptor all the way.

From my own perspective, the conclusion I've come to is that, if one is not able or doesn't want to pursue a BYU degree, a viable option is to pursue dance certification through ISTD or one of the other ballroom governing organizations, then pursue a degree in business or some other useful discipline from an accredited university. But those are just my thoughts on the issue.

[etchuck]

As it turns out, a local woman who has successfully run a high school ballroom dance education program for the past five years, has been banned from doing it next year, because she lacks a degree in ballroom dance.

She has a degree in education, but, due to Florida regulations,the degree has to be in ballroom dance for her to teach ballroom dance. The irony is, of course, that very few of the local teachers hold a four year degree in dance of any sort, and those that do, are too busy with their dance careers to become high school teachers.

It also probably has a bit to do with No Child Left Behind too. They require teachers be educated (that is with a degree) in the area they are teaching. Now I understand that history teachers would be uncomfortable teaching math, but I know in these circumstances it becomes tough to require a bachelor's degree in ballroom dance in order for people to actually teach it in high school. Why not just go for the ISTD exam and get loads more money instead of being more "altruistic"?

[pygmalion]

I agree, etchuck. I think it's a bureaucracy issue. The powers that be know nothing about ballroom dance, so, rather than find out, they're demanding something that's nigh unto impossible. What's the probability that one of the few degreed ballroom dance folks in the US will move to semi-rural Florida and be underpaid to teach dance? On top of which, the local ballroom dance teaching market is flooded, with little opportunity to break in and make a decent living on the side.

[Porfirio Landeros]

I found out about another college (besides BYU) that has an accredited ballroom dance program:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030708-110230-7145r.htm

Students at Fairmont State Community and Technical College in Fairmont, W.Va., can waltz their way through school this fall toward a new, unorthodox graduation certificate: ballroom dancing.

The school will offer a two-year degree — the first of its kind nationwide — and become only the second U.S. college to offer ballroom-dancing lessons as an academic program.

[pygmalion]

Wow! Cool. 8) :D

[LindyKeya]

Interesting... From what I know of the Education system (I work for the department at my university that issues degrees in education and recommends graduates for licensure/certification) it seems this teacher should be able to take some sort of test- from the ISTD or wherever, and she should be able to get her state to give her an endorsement for ballroom dance. (And besides- although BYU does offer degrees focusing on ballroom dance, I don't believe any of them are in conjunction with teacher certification programs).

My high school had several social dance classes available- from a teacher with a degree in dance (ie Modern dance). She had taken one class in Social Dance while she was in college. Even with No Child Left Behind, she has not had any problems. (Which is interesting, since she really was not qualified to be teaching ballroom dance- I was her TA, and she and I always got together sometime before class. I would show her how to do the steps we would then be teaching in class).

[pygmalion]

Elementary through high school education is mandated at the state level, and the state of Florida is pretty inflexible in its requirements, from what I've heard.

[Christina75]

I found this article while web surfing this morning and something about it sounded familiar, then I remembered reading this forum thread. This article doesn't mention degrees in dance but it is about the same university that I think started this topic. I thought it was interesting. :)

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2004/03/24/394293-ap.html

Christina

[pygmalion]

Actually, Dancesport College, in South Africa, started this thread. I'll try again to contact that school, and give them the chance to explain their program in this forum. I believe their link is at the very top of this thread.

[Christina75]

oops! :oops: sorry, I thought it was St. Regis that started the conversation. :)

Christina

[pygmalion]

Oh. No problem. I emailed them months ago, but I'll try again, and see if they want to say something. Maybe my email went to the wrong place. :?

[Porfirio Landeros]

The assessment would be done by dancesport college, but the degree would be conferred by St. Regis University, a state accredited University in South Africa.

Isn't this the same place? The google search pulled up this DanceSportCollege, which has the same pricing scale as St. Regis, Liberia.

Thanks for the article, Christina. A similar thing happened to some city or county workers here in San Diego. They lost their jobs and were fined for having fake degrees. I really hope someone from DanceSportCollege can explain their side of the story, since all we seem to be finding is bad press for St. Regis.

[pygmalion]

Oops. That's what I get for responding from memory, rather than going back to read the whole thread.

It will be interesting to see whether these folks repoy to my email, and, if so, what they say.

[Porfirio Landeros]

This came up today in my e-news subscription from http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/

My government official's an honor student at Diploma Mill University:
Some senior-level federal employees purchased their diplomas from unaccredited online universities, rather than earning them. And they did so with taxpayer money. This according to an investigation by General Accounting Office, which found 463 federal employees, 28 of them senior level, registered as "students" at schools that are widely believed to be diploma mills (the Defense Department, it's worth noting, had the highest number, with 257 registered with the schools). "We have clear evidence that tax dollars are being wasted on bogus degrees from unaccredited institutions that the federal government does not even recognize," said Senate Governmental Affairs Committee chairman Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine), who requested the investigation. "It is also cause for great concern that federal officials who hold high-ranking positions, and security clearances in some instances, have degrees from diploma mills. It calls into question their qualifications and abilities to do their jobs."

Our local government has purged a few of these degree holders in the past couple of years, and I hear St. Regis has been on the list.

[pygmalion]

I need to give an update on this thread, too. The local woman who leads a high school ballroom program had been given permission to teach again next year, despite the lack of a ballroom dance degree. Thank goodness good sense prevailed. Apparently, the decision is that "core curriculum" courses, such as math and English, require a related degree. But non-core courses, such as ballroom dance, do not require a directly related degree. Finally, some justice in the bureaucratic world! 8)

[Porfirio Landeros]

Finally, some justice in the bureaucratic world! 8)

That's great news! It would be a shame to see a ballroom program be blocked, when there are too few ways to get a university degree in this highly detailed and organized discipline.