Leading With the Arm . . . Leaders???

[Vince A]

I know we're supposed to lead with our centers, but why does it feel right when you lead with your arm?

Come on now, you know you've done it!

[SwinginBoo]

I don't think you are supposed to lead with your arm, at least when you're leading something like a lindy turn. You are supposed to lead with your body. That feels most natural to me. But if you are talking about leading a different sort of pattern with your arm then perhaps I am totally off base. :?

[Vince A]

I don't think you are supposed to lead with your arm, at least when you're leading something like a lindy turn. You are supposed to lead with your body. That feels most natural to me. But if you are talking about leading a different sort of pattern with your arm then perhaps I am totally off base. :?
You are very correct Boo . . . I don't, but have, and sometimes "it just feels right for that particular lead/move.

I was wondering "why?"

[Sagitta]

I know we're supposed to lead with our centers, but why does it feel right when you lead with your arm?

Come on now, you know you've done it!

Yup, but no matter how right it feels it feels many times better when done when leading with my center. (Unfortunately never got as good as I wanted to before I started my swing haitus!@ :( )

[pygmalion]

I think you make a good point, Vince. It does feel natural to lead (and follow, btw) using the arms. It's only after lots of coaching that you can start to feel how it's done properly. Everybody I know started off leading with the arms, and as they progressed, learned not to do it.

I wonder if it has something to with learning to relax. I know my arm muscles automatically tense when I'm nervous. Hmm. Still thinking.

[Vince A]

I think you make a good point, Vince. It does feel natural to lead (and follow, btw) using the arms. It's only after lots of coaching that you can start to feel how it's done properly. Everybody I know started off leading with the arms, and as they progressed, learned not to do it.

I wonder if it has something to with learning to relax. I know my arm muscles automatically tense when I'm nervous. Hmm. Still thinking.
I guess that's where I was going with this . . . I certainly know that I have moves that require more arm than normal, and if I do "center" leading, it doesn't come out as well . . . example: mainly I have to go straight back on counts 3, 4 on one particular move that I'm thinking of. If "my flashlight" is aimed at hers, there is no way she'll get the next turn w/o me indicating, albeit ever so slightly, with my arm on a R to R connection, that I want her to do an inside turn into a side-lunge, stopping on 5, out on 6, and into four phantom turns back down the slot, to a presentaion towards the audience, into a double arm turn-out back down the slot to a wind up L to L as she winds L shoulder back), and unwind her and (finally) into a dip on the subsequent count 5, hitting a break and posing toward the audience!

I could not do this move ( I have others), as easy as it is, by only using my center, etc.

Although, I rarely do this any longer, as I've been getting more and more towards basic and just "playing." This takes less work!

[Vince A]

This reminds of a post we had discussed many months ago . . . regarding toe taps instead of anchoring and even putting the taps in anywhere in the footwork pattern.

This isn't right either, but it sure feels good. And, it can confuse the other dancer if they don't do it . . . although it shouldn't if they're doing what they should be doing.

Some individuals lead with their arms and even toe tap some counts in competition. Yes I know the 12 count rule, but if they are being judges, why would they even want to do them? To look cool??? Well, that's the reason I do them in comps . . . and slides too!

I'm talking WCS here . . .

[d nice]

I guess that's where I was going with this . . . I certainly know that I have moves that require more arm than normal, and if I do "center" leading, it doesn't come out as well . . . example: mainly I have to go straight back on counts 3, 4 on one particular move that I'm thinking of. If "my flashlight" is aimed at hers, there is no way she'll get the next turn w/o me indicating, albeit ever so slightly, with my arm on a R to R connection, that I want her to do an inside turn into a side-lunge, stopping on 5, out on 6, and into four phantom turns back down the slot, to a presentaion towards the audience, into a double arm turn-out back down the slot to a wind up L to L as she winds L shoulder back), and unwind her and (finally) into a dip on the subsequent count 5, hitting a break and posing toward the audience!

I could not do this move ( I have others), as easy as it is, by only using my center, etc.

Although, I rarely do this any longer, as I've been getting more and more towards basic and just "playing." This takes less work!

WHich is good because this is choreography not social dancing. When executing choreography you do whatever you want... you know the pattern and she probably does as well. When social dancing one thing matters most... not what feels right to you, but what feels right to your partner.

I'd bet nine out of ten partners leaders or followers will prefer a move/pattern where there partner leads/follows with their body rather than the arm, regardless of how "right" or "natural" it feels to the person doing it.

As to "right and natural" this is your brain thinking about what is going on and micromanaging the movement. Your body in nature will attempt to use the body for nearly everything. Pushing pulling, doesn't matter. Watch toddlers as they make their way around... when they interact with the world it is a whole body experience. They push from their feet all the way to their hands.

Body leading is not just moving the center first, it is the entire body moving in an intergrated fashion.

The center needs to initiate movement, but the whole body including the arms and hands follow through... a good way to think of it is that the body creates momentum and the arms may modify it.

[d nice]

Oh and flashlighting is an artifical tool that never existed in the original or classic forms of West Coast Swing, while it can be a useful teaching tool, it is not (or at least shouldn't be) a hard and fast rule. It can prevent actual use of the body and frame for leading and following.

I'd drop flashlighting before I drop the body lead.

[dancergal]

In WCS if a lead has more body leads and less arm leads, I can tell how much easier it is to follow him and the less my own arms hurt when as when leader does a lot of "arm" work. I think that's why sometimes my arms touch the floor when leaving of social dance floor.....ow! :wink:

[Swing Kitten]

what's flashlighting?

[Vince A]

what's flashlighting?
It is a term that "imagines" a flashlight on your breastplate area that is shining on a flashlight on the same area of the leader that you are dancing with . . . was used to teach dancers to keep their centers on each other by keeping your flashlights on each other, but as d nice points out: "It can prevent actual use of the body and frame for leading and following."

[bgirlswinger]

I have never heard of the "flashlight" anology but that is interesting,... I have always just told people that when you are dancing, your upper body should have a square frame against your partner. Alot of the dancing Is lead with the arms, turns, and soem with the wrist and arm, swivles, and some just by a and connection,, just the movement of the hand and make the body react in different ways. try doing 1 move with 4 different hand holds, not different arm positions, but hand holds, wht do you find. Leading is a combination of body, arm, wrist, leg movement, and from all of these make style. Everyone tries to be an individual and have their own style. Try some of these things and experiementing with leading with your arm and you will discover a whole new world of swing.-
-amber d.

[Vince A]

Amber,
Interesting, very interesting. I took several years worth of privates who was very much into the wide "rubber band" stretch look of WCS, and he was very much an arm leader. Although, just about any follower who danced with him knew exactly where they needed to be . . . arm or center lead! I still like his style above most WCS champions/Pros, etc.

Probably where I got a lot of my bad habits too . . . as I do many arm and wrist leads . . . and everyone knows where they need to be, yet my Pro knocks me down for it. I'm sure she just doesn't want me doing it in competition!!! :roll:

[bgirlswinger]

Amber,
Interesting, very interesting. I took several years worth of privates who was very much into the wide "rubber band" stretch look of WCS, and he was very much an arm leader. Although, just about any follower who danced with him knew exactly where they needed to be . . . arm or center lead! I still like his style above most WCS champions/Pros, etc.

Probably where I got a lot of my bad habits too . . . as I do many arm and wrist leads . . . and everyone knows where they need to be, yet my Pro knocks me down for it. I'm sure she just doesn't want me doing it in competition!!! :roll:

Was it they knew from just danincg with him alot and reading his moves, or was they just really good follows. and they had a good lead follow connection?-amber d.

[Vince A]

Amber,
Interesting, very interesting. I took several years worth of privates who was very much into the wide "rubber band" stretch look of WCS, and he was very much an arm leader. Although, just about any follower who danced with him knew exactly where they needed to be . . . arm or center lead! I still like his style above most WCS champions/Pros, etc.

Probably where I got a lot of my bad habits too . . . as I do many arm and wrist leads . . . and everyone knows where they need to be, yet my Pro knocks me down for it. I'm sure she just doesn't want me doing it in competition!!! :roll:

Was it they knew from just danincg with him alot and reading his moves, or was they just really good follows. and they had a good lead follow connection?-amber d.
Even a stranger would know where to go with him . . . he, by far, is a superior leader. I can follow . . . though only the basics plus . . . and I danced with him when he was giving me lessons to point something out . . and I knew exactly where he wanted me to goand I'm talking about intricate patterns. I learned a lot of it . . . using my "free" hand to - stop, guide, gently push through, nudge - or whatever it takes to assist my connection with her to get her where I want her to go. But no where near as good as him . . .

[Jmatthew]

Ugh.

Arm leads are hugely bad, and here's why:

Your follow will try to follow you with the same part of your body that you lead from.

Try it, it's totally true.

If you lead with your arm, your follow tries to move her arm. if you move your body, your follow moves her body.

It's a matter of connection that's almost zen if you try to figure the physics, but it's very easily seen if you just give it a try.

Another reason IS simple physics. You're shoulders are probably 18-24 inches across, and your step is probably about equal to that, while your forearm is 12-15 inches long (assuming your'e keeping your elbow close to your ribcage like you should be in most swing dance "neutral" positions), SO even if you pull your arm back as far as possible (which hurts a little and would never be comfortable while dancing) you're pulling way less distance than if you simply turn your body sidewise or take a step back.

Basically the body leads forces your follow to follow by throwing her off balance, while the arm lead is small enough that she can choose to move her arm instead.

I hope that made sense.

[Sagitta]

It does. Totally!!! Welcome to the forums Jmatthew!! I'm sure the other swing members will be happy to have another one join their ranks after the overpowering rise of the salseros/salseras! :) :wink:

[Jmatthew]

I salsa too. :/

But I'm not any good, so can the Lindy people still love me?! <G>

[Vince A]

I believe that most of you have got the message now . . you don't lead with the arms - even though it may feel right!

Jmatthew has a nice reasoning for "leading with the body" . . . and maybe, Jenn, if you see this post . . . it could be placed in the Beginner's Forum.

[Sagitta]

I salsa too. :/

But I'm not any good, so can the Lindy people still love me?! <G>

As Vince said - really good post!! How could they not love you after that?!! :) Just trying to promote a little swing, though salsa is my thing... (like that swing rhyme goes?)

[Swing Kitten]

I salsa too. :/

But I'm not any good, so can the Lindy people still love me?! <G> :bouncy: YAY!

[msc]

It can be dangerous to follow "from the arms." One move that's particularly dangerous is where the man twists the lady's wrist a little to get her to turn her back to the man (at the end of say, a Side Pass,) then twists the wrist the other way to snap her back to facing. If the man manages to lead that move from his center (a difficult task, but doable,) and the lady is following from her arms, the lady's body will remain facing away from the man while her arm and shoulder go towards the man on that snap back lead. That's not a good thing.

[pygmalion]

Yup, msc. Been there, done that. It hurts.

[bgirlswinger]

the ones yuo really have to watch out for are the "yankers"

-amber d.