How do you keep on time?

[danceguy]

I wanted to ask the other Salsa folks out there, what parts of a Salsa song do your ears hear that keeps you on time? I imagine after many months/years of dancing you may not even think in these terms - but as beginner I still struggle with this.

For instance, I used to NEVER be able to feel/hear the Conga...it always was drowned out by the rest of the things going on...and it seemed to be invisible to me. Even after practicing for many hours with SalsaRhythms (there's a plug for you Fernando)...I still couldn't hear it. I'd hear the clave, bass and the piano when it was present, but when I'd start to get lost I'd always wait patiently for the cowbell hitting the 1, 3, 5 and 7 to keep my timing on track. Of course, when I couldn't hear this I'd start to get lost...

But then only day while I was listening to some Salsa music at home, my phone rang and I turned my music way down...and as I'm talking on the phone, in the background I hear this noise following a very clear cycle:

1 2 3 ta-ka, 5, 6, 7 ta-ka

I realize then that I can hear the the conga very clearly...with little hints of the rest of the instruments barely audible in the background. I listen more...and the rhythm suddenly seems so clear...and I think to myself...why did take me so long to be able to feel this?

Now I hear everything that's going on...and its so much easier to just let go and work on my dancing (which needs LOTS of work!)...but I thought I'd share this since it was such a struggle for me...

Best,

SG

[Sagitta]

Thanks for sharing SG!!

I actually just wing it!! I'm really bad. I think I get it right most of the time, though. [Shrug] I just sort of listen to the music, count in my head a basic or two, and off I go!! :) I do lose my feet though when trying out moves, and that gets me!

[Polarican]

I would like to share my method for timing for a couple of reasons…

One, I thought reading the perspective of a struggling newbie might be helpful to fellow struggling newbies.. (the: I am not alone!!) I also was hoping that it might take some of you Salseros back to those early days, giving you an opportunity to reflect on how far you have come and how you can relate to those early struggles…

And Two, and most importantly, I would like to know how “severely” off I am in my research and deductions…

Here it goes:

I have always wanted to learn to dance Salsa; or at least learn enough to blend in with a crowd without feeling awkward… Wanting to learn on my own (I am very stubborn and confident about my own ability to learn new things), I spent a couple of days a week at various Latin Clubs in NJ…

I observed many couples in those weeks. One of the first things I had noticed is that the couples who seemed to be beginners (or less advanced), danced to a more basic beat. I had determined that this beat was 1-2-3 skip (No movement on 4th beat), 1-2-3 skip (No movement on 4th beat)… I also observed that the more advanced couples (In my “very” amateur opinion), were dancing to the same beat, but with a sort of extra step. This step was more of a quick step/tap into a transition to the next set of 1-2-3 extra step… During this visual crash course, I mainly studied the footwork of these more advanced couples. What I noticed about this "4th step" that they were using, was that it always landed on a higher pitched beat. This beat was something that I never really paid that much attention to before… Once I concentrated on picking up this sound, this beat, I began using it as my starting point while I practiced by myself. I always thought of it as a 4th beat.

I did a lot of practicing. I got these 4 steps down and learned to hear the music better… . To this day, as soon as I walk onto a dance floor, this 4th beat is the first thing I find to get myself going. It’s also the only beat I use to catch my timing if I get lost during a song…

I have always felt the music, man do I love Salsa!!! But It was a lot of work going from hearing my own cadence or finding my beat, to being able to dance and "THEN" feel the music the way I used to. After getting comfortable, I stopped worrying about the technical aspect and just enjoyed getting myself into “mini zones” until it really clicked for me.. Now I feel the music even more than before!!! I can’t express in words how good it feels to finally be in there, getting my own little slice of Nirvana from time to time…

As of today, I can dance with a partner, but can’t lead very well… When I separate (which I end up doing for about 30% of a dance), is when I really feel the music!! I can do very basic turns, but most of the time after a turn I am scrambling for my buddy “4th beat” if I try to get a little fancy with a turn…

This is what I really would like to know:

From what you have read so far, how far off am I? I now realize that there are 8 beats after reading the other posts, but was I still somewhat there by accident? Or did I develop what is basically now a bad habit? Please let me know… I would greatly appreciate the feedback…

After finding this board and checking out Fernando's site salsarythms.com, I truly feel inspired to take my dancing to the next level!!!

Thank you for visiting "The mindset of an aspiring and formerly stubborn Salsero"

[brujo]

I started dancing on 1. When I first started, I would stick to songs like Juliana, which had a consistent cowbell throughout the entire song. The tuc- tuc- tuc- sound was fairly consistent and it was the way my cuban teacher used to indicate how to mark the song.

As I continued learning about the music, I started using the pa - tum, tu-cu sounds of the tumbao ( tumbadoras -> Congas ) to mark my time. I still use this when I am dancing on 2, as I am still not very comfortable with it.

I find that singing along to the song usually keeps me on time, I kinda hardwired my body to move forward or backwards as I start singing, this works with most songs as the ( depending on on1 or on2 ).

Now, I find that I usually listen to the melody layer on top to guide me in my dancing, so the brass section and the piano most of the time. This doesn't help me keep in time, but it allows me to play with the music.

The key is just to listen to as much music as possible in your spare time and just practice dancing the basic step and you'll get the pattern ( whether quick, quick-slow or slow-quick-quick ) burned into your system ).

Also, I'm probably hallucinating on this one, but the Colombian bands like Fruko y sus tesos and Grupo Niche seem to have a much stronger and noticeable conga sound to their music than the big New York orchestras. When I dance to a Colombian song, I find I can mark my steps much better following the congas than when listening to Lavoe, in which I use the trumpets and the clave.

[looyenyeo]

Maybe I'll get my wrist slapped for this, maybe not, because it's not a money-making site:

Check out the free timing tutorials on:
http://www.salsa-merengue.co.uk/VidTutor/salsatwo/salsatwo.html

Also, if you have a graphic equaliser in hardware or software, or sound mixing software, you could try making the conga/tumba tones more obvious. If I'm not mistaken, the fundamental frequencies of the open tones generally lie between 250-350Hz, and the slaps at about 4.9kHz. My congas are tuned to 261Hz and 330Hz.

Just cut the other frequencies down (not up, you want to remove background noise like the vocals), and it should make the tones more obvious. Once you know where to look for them and what they sound like, slowly ease the other frequencies back in place.

One thing to note is that good mastering engineers tend to boost the harmonic frequencies of the fundamental note, so that there is more perceived bass from smaller speakers. This follows a principle in psychoacoustics where supplying the (higher) harmonic frequencies of a fundamental, without supplying the fundamental itself, causes the human ear to fill in the fundamental without actually hearing it. Small speakers produce very little of the lower frequencies, so by supplying more of the harmonics, the ear is fooled into filling in the fundamental note e.g. if your little portable can't dish out 261Hz, supplying a signal at 522Hz plus others would make it sound as if 261Hz was present.

Moral of the story: if you can't find the fundamental, then look for it in multiples (of two) and you should be able to get some joy.

If you don't have a graphic equaliser, play the song slightly on the loud side, and go into the next room, leaving the door slightly ajar. The lower frequencies of the open tones are less directional, and travel better around corners...

Hope this helps,
Loo

[Vin]

Hi SG, my experience was similar, like you I would stick to listening for the strong 1,3,5,7 that I hear in most salsa's. Then one day I simply heard a tak,tak,tak, pause, tak,tak,tak pause in a song. Sometimes it would start on the one sometimes on the two but now I hear it or something similar in every song and this is what I dance to.

[HothouseSalsero]

I don't remember ever having regular problems finding the beat. It might happen now and then (and I have mentioned that I sometimes started on the 3, thinking it was the 1), but overall, that hasn't been a problem. I feel more that I am finding the beat spread out across all the music. The one thing I will say is that I don't think I particularly dance to the bass, despite seeing people say that this is what good dancers do. Maybe I'm not a good dancer then, but I don't find focusing on the bass particularly helpful.

I do sometimes have to wait for a (vocal) line to finish, before I feel sure of where I am in the beat, so that's still some sort of weakness. Also, that suggests that maybe I am focusing more on the melody?

I don't know. Most of the time it takes care of itself.

[Salsero_AT]

I think i use a combination of listening to the bass, the melody and often the piano. I find listening to the beginning of the montuno´s the piano plays often the easiest way. But it depends very much on the song what i use. It is hard to describe for me because i do not do it consciously.

The second important thing to try to learn is to hear the difference between 1 and 5. There are so many people who do not care about that but in my opinion it is important because you dance so much more with the flow of the music when you start your basic with the start of a musical phrase.

I had several years of piano and guitar playing experience before i started dancing so perhaps i had it easier in the beginning. But there is a difference in mentally hearing the beats and really dancing to them. And it is even much harder to dance a consistent timing with a partner. So everyone who has a hard time with this, don´t give up. It all comes with time :D

[danceguy]

Thank you for sharing your experiences everyone, its given me a lot more to think about. As I used to be a musician (sax) and a music ed major, I have to hear and feel everything that's going on when I dance...that's how I kept time when I played in a band so it carries over to my new hobby of dancing.

Its funny though, the first really distinct sound that I used to keep my time was the bass, then later the clave (still tend to forget about this one), piano, cowbell and now the conga as well. I also had a hard time with the 8 count concept...but once I got in my head how this cycle starts and ends, the flow of Salsa music began to make a lot more sense.

I only know how to dance on1, but I've noticed that my dancing is starting to move out of the "1, 2, 3 pause, 5, 6, 7 pause" frame of mind. Going out dancing more and observing and talking with advanced Salsero/as has really changed how I dance. Having picked up a couple of shine moves (I'm really an awful solo dancer, better at partnering) that have 8 steps, or even 2 or 4 steps, I'm able to play with the basic rhythm a lot more than before...and I like making up my own patterns while I practice at home...but it may be a while before I try any of these on the dance floor. :P :oops: :P

I saw my first live performance of on2 dancing last week, and it really made a lot of ideas click in my head, as well as leaving me with many more questions to ponder on my own...it will be a while before I attempt to learn it though. :)

Best,

SG

[HothouseSalsero]

See, I think that eight count cycle is what I was trying to talk about: I think I sometimes like to wait for the "true" one, rather than the five. My teacher never really made much of distinction between the two (although I'm sure she could have pointed it out), but I'm often more comfortable starting at the beginning of a musical phrase.

[vey]

I do sometimes have to wait for a (vocal) line to finish, before I feel sure of where I am in the beat, so that's still some sort of weakness. Also, that suggests that maybe I am focusing more on the melody?

I am doing the same thing, HS :!: I think it depends on what kind of music you're used to, or as looyenyeo eloquently put it in a topic cha cha rhythm in nightclubs:
As a dangerous generalisation:
A western-based ear tends to tune in to the melodics i.e. the chord changes...
African-based cultures tune in to the percussion,...

From what I understand, the danger of focusing on melody/vocal is that singers sometimes fluctuate their rhythm a bit (perhaps as part of their emotional interpretation of a song)...

[vey]

... but I'm often more comfortable starting at the beginning of a musical phrase.

Me too, me tooooooo! :D :D :D

Do you think it's a logical outcome of the fact that we follow the melody?

[HothouseSalsero]

Except that when I'm most in the flow of dancing, I feel as though I am dancing to the rhythm spread out across the entire song.

Now I want to try to experiment dancing to instrumental salsa/danceable Latin jazz, and see if I can catch what I am doing then when I find the rhythm.

[HothouseSalsero]

Maybe I'm just in denial because a lot of people frown on the idea of dancing to the melody. (On some level we must be dancing to the rhythm, right?)

[vey]

On some level we must be dancing to the rhythm, right?
I honestly hope so :!:

I think I know what you mean. I started with following only the melody, now I'm following (or sometimes not following :lol: ) a combination of things and it seems to work most of the time but when I'm trying to think consciously of what I'm following I'm loosing the beat :(

[SDsalsaguy]

Hmmm, sounds like I may be the least musically inclined of any of us here…

I’m not sure if I’ve posted this here before so, if I have, please excuse the repetition. Anyway, when I first started learning salsa I couldn’t find the beat – let alone keep it! – to save my life. I was taking private lessons, going to clubs, etc., but, alas, nothing did the job. :cry:

A couple of months into this I ended up making a long cross-country circuit: from San Diego to Toronto, from Toronto to New York, from New York to Philadelphia, and finally from Philadelphia back to San Diego. Well, I put all the salsa I had on a long play tape and played that same tape, on constant repeat, for the entire drive! :shock:

When I got back to San Diego I could dance on beat without thinking about it or counting. It’s funny how things turn out though…my timing is now actually one of the things I get complimented on the most – how my partners feel free to dance because they *know* that I’ll always be there for them, mistakes or not, on beat.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

When I first started salsa dancing, I had MAJOR problems finding the beat. I was completely rhythm deaf! My partners would complain about this before, during and after the song! (The ones that complained before, were the ones that had danced with me before).

I used to joke with my friends saying "you see that muddle of sweat on the dancefloor, that´s where I was dancing". "Finding the beat does that to me".

Since I had no dance or music backgound, I couldn´t analyse correctly the different instruments being played. I knew I had to find the beat in a very simple and straightforward kind of way.

The technique I used was very similar to SDsalsaguy´s (even though I didn´t travel all over the country). I bought a salsa CD. Played my favourite song over and over again. Sometimes at night, I would just turn off the lights, lay on the bed and listen to the same song for about an hour. I tried to find the first four beats (1,2,3 pause) and then the second four (5,6,7 pause). Eventually I started understanding the rhythm and became more confident in myself. I could then start facing the man-eating salseras on the dancefloor...

I know for a fact that at the time a "very technical" explanation would never have worked for me. But that´s just me - no musical background.

Regards,

[HothouseSalsero]

Immersing myself in the music early on definitely helped me become comfortable with the rhythms a lot more quickly.

[Polarican]

Polarican wrote:

This is what I really would like to know:

From what you have read so far, how far off am I? I now realize that there are 8 beats after reading the other posts, but was I still somewhat there by accident? Or did I develop what is basically now a bad habit? Please let me know… I would greatly appreciate the feedback…

I apologize if my post was not clear enough for it to make any kind of sense... I never took a lesson in my life and am only now learning the very basics of what to listen for to correctly dance in rhythm... I know I can dance already. I know enough to be able to enjoy the music that I love so much from a different perspective, on the dance floor... Now I am looking for more... I don't know when it happened to me exactly, but my love for Salsa has deepened to point that I want to experience it on a different level.

Basically, my question had to do more with foundation. I only wanted to know if the foundation I built for myself was flawed, or if I somehow got lucky... For myself, it feels right... And if I never learn anything else, I will still do what I do because i love to dance... And if I'm off beat, oh well... I'm "Polarican" anyway...

Thanks....

[Sagitta]

I agree with the fourth step not being a step, but a flick/tap of the foot. And it does feel like a transition to the next step. So it is left, right, left, right flick, right, left, right, left flick etc. I woul almost describe it as 1,2, 3-4 and 5,6,7-8 and... There is no full weight transfer unlike the other steps...or that's what I feel when I dance anyway. :)

[borikensalsero]

Polarican wrote:

This is what I really would like to know:

From what you have read so far, how far off am I? I now realize that there are 8 beats after reading the other posts, but was I still somewhat there by accident? Or did I develop what is basically now a bad habit? Please let me know… I would greatly appreciate the feedback…

I apologize if my post was not clear enough for it to make any kind of sense... I never took a lesson in my life and am only now learning the very basics of what to listen for to correctly dance in rhythm... I know I can dance already. I know enough to be able to enjoy the music that I love so much from a different perspective, on the dance floor... Now I am looking for more... I don't know when it happened to me exactly, but my love for Salsa has deepened to point that I want to experience it on a different level.

Basically, my question had to do more with foundation. I only wanted to know if the foundation I built for myself was flawed, or if I somehow got lucky... For myself, it feels right... And if I never learn anything else, I will still do what I do because i love to dance... And if I'm off beat, oh well... I'm "Polarican" anyway...

Thanks....

Yes, you are doing the right thing. You seem to have found the timing but since you live in Jersey I might have to say that you should try stepping on the second beat. What you describe as the 4th beat is actually the 1st beat of the music. Hence, you are dancing on1, nothing wrong with that, if you prefer to master that before you do on2, then go right ahead.

The way that salsa is counted is: loud beat you hear is 1, 2, 3, pause when dancing is the 4 or tu cu of congas, another loud but not so loud which you step backward with the right foot is the 5, 6, 7 and the pause in the 8 again or tu cu sound of the congas. Then start all over again as you are currently doing.

I say learn on2 because if you venture to NY City, you will have an easier time dancing with just about everyone. On1 dancers don't really dance with on2 and the other way around, but the way majority is on2.

[SDsalsaguy]

...but the way majority is on2.
Just to specify: in NY.

[Polarican]

Thank you very much for the feedback, I really appreciate it…

Borikensalsero, awesome info…

I do have a another question for you.. Based on the info you provided, with what I have considered to be my “4th” step actually being the “1st” step, along with the fact that I don’t really step on this beat, could there be a possibility that I have been dancing On2 all along?? My first real step does not happen until after this sort of flick/tap of the foot…

[borikensalsero]

Thank you very much for the feedback, I really appreciate it…

Borikensalsero, awesome info…

I do have a another question for you.. Based on the info you provided, with what I have considered to be my “4th” step actually being the “1st” step, along with the fact that I don’t really step on this beat, could there be a possibility that I have been dancing On2 all along?? My first real step does not happen until after this sort of flick/tap of the foot…

I can't really tell for sure. But chances are that if you're tapping while on the tu cu of the congas you are likely bypassing the big bang of the 1, and stepping on the two. Hence, dancing on2.

The easiest way to tell, is either by counting out loud to see where you are truly stepping. If you step forward with your left foot, after you have finished tapping your foot and land on the loudest (not necessarily) beat of the music then you are dancing on 1. But if you are skipping right over that bang, then you are stepping on the two. Also, if you have old school salsa, a lot of songs tend to have the bass hitting on the 2 and the 6. So you hear the beats all coming together in the 1 but then on the 2 the most audible instrument will be the bass, or the slap of the conga, sounding something like (Ta). If you are stepping on that you are dancing on2. Do you know anyone who dances salsa who can tell you for sure?

So if you kick on the tu cu, and you step on the ta of the conga it might be that you are dancing on2. Some people naturaly flow with the 2, holding the conga, or tapping on the tu cu (4th beat), and natural stepping on the 2. When I dance I listen for the tumbao (the tu cu, 4th beat), then for the slap of the conga, and when not there I listen for the bass, and when not I do the clave, when not, I just know is there.

Or, if you have a song that the clave is very audible. Put it on. The clave plays like this: two quick (ta ta) then three slower (ta - ta - ta), or viceversa, it really doesn't matter what direction it is on as long as you step on it. If you hear the clave and you are stepping with either your right or your left foot on the first (ta) of the quick (ta ta) part, then you are dancing on2. So, using the clave and imagining that you are stepping forward with the left, you would step with your left on the first (ta) and quickly step with the right foot on the second (ta) and absolutely know that you are dancing on2.

Hope that helped. :)

[Polarican]

Borikensalsero, I can’t tell you how much your info helped… I now realize that for the most part, I have been dancing On2 all along… I really appreciate the way you took the time to break this down. And I now have a better understanding of what to listen for to help me stay on time with the predominately used On2 salsa style of the NY area …

I felt so good about this that I just “had” to get some dancing in tonight… Luckily a friend of mine called me to tell me she was tending at a local spot… She told me it was slow night and that’s when the light bulb clicked on. Dancing in front of the mirror was not going to cut it for me tonight!! She is a great dancer and I was surprised when she told me that she was glad that I passed by, because she said she needed to dance too!!

Now it’s on to breaking down my Salsa collection on my MP3 player while I get ready for tomorrow…

Thanks again!!

[Sagitta]

I dance on1!! I guess I will have to learn to dance on two so that I can dance in NYC!! So, all thsi advice should be useful! I did dance a couple times for parts of a song on 5!! Interesting, I must say! How many others have experimented like that?

[MacMoto]

I can't really tell for sure. But chances are that if you're tapping while on the tu cu of the congas you are likely bypassing the big bang of the 1, and stepping on the two. Hence, dancing on2.

Hmm. I dance on1, but sometimes I tap on the 4/8 (i.e., no visible pause)...
Some of the leaders I dance regularly with do that, and I generally adjust my steps to the leader's step style (it's interesting how everyone's "basic step" is slightly different).
Also, I feel that some songs naturally call for the tap on the 4/8 for some reason I haven't figured out yet, and when I feel it I tap.
Oh, and I also sort of tap with the left toe on the 4 in a crossbody lead, (to accentuate the lean back before stepping forward on the 5), though I suppose it's a different thing...

I haven't met any on2 dancers yet. I hear it's becoming popular in London though, so it may only be a matter of time before on2 hits Scotland.

[borikensalsero]

I can't really tell for sure. But chances are that if you're tapping while on the tu cu of the congas you are likely bypassing the big bang of the 1, and stepping on the two. Hence, dancing on2.

Hmm. I dance on1, but sometimes I tap on the 4/8 (i.e., no visible pause)...
Some of the leaders I dance regularly with do that, and I generally adjust my steps to the leader's step style (it's interesting how everyone's "basic step" is slightly different).
Also, I feel that some songs naturally call for the tap on the 4/8 for some reason I haven't figured out yet, and when I feel it I tap.
Oh, and I also sort of tap with the left toe on the 4 in a crossbody lead, (to accentuate the lean back before stepping forward on the 5), though I suppose it's a different thing...

I haven't met any on2 dancers yet. I hear it's becoming popular in London though, so it may only be a matter of time before on2 hits Scotland.

A lot of people actually tap, it is quite natural to tap since we are already moving to hit the next beat, however, tapping on the 4/8 when dancing on2, I find it somewhat different. There is more time for the tap/flicker so it becomes more accentuated only because we have the 1 as well as the 4 to tap on way to the 2. Dancing on1, the person has to hurry the tap, unless of course, the song is on the slower side, which we have time to do whatever we want. Hurry the tap because on1 can't really waste any time with an accentuated tap/flicker on the 4 or 8 because they have to hit the one relatively fast, which means they must already be traveling towards the one as well as getting the tap in there, without lossing beat. (assuming the tapping on1 is done during the 4th beat) As I see it, 2 counts gives the on2 tap a longer period to generate, rather than on1 which means that there is only 1 count to tap during the 4 itself and also move to the one.

The tap on the x-body is a styling one as you’ve mentioned, for both on2 and on1. It literally is a quick tap, where as a tap/flicker on2 on the basic is actually a pronounced event meant to fill in the entire beat of 4 and possibly 1, keeping the rhythm going before we begin to move somewhere close to the (1-and) to hit the 2. If I think about on1, to do the same kind of tapping as on 2, I would have to start tapping on the 3rd beat and take up some of the 4 to make it look as pronounced as the on2, then jump right on the (4 and) to hit the 1.

Maybe you like tapping to the songs which replace the tu cu, with a ta making it kind of rhythmic to hit it as well.

[borikensalsero]

Borikensalsero, I can’t tell you how much your info helped… I now realize that for the most part, I have been dancing On2 all along… I really appreciate the way you took the time to break this down. And I now have a better understanding of what to listen for to help me stay on time with the predominately used On2 salsa style of the NY area …

I felt so good about this that I just “had” to get some dancing in tonight… Luckily a friend of mine called me to tell me she was tending at a local spot… She told me it was slow night and that’s when the light bulb clicked on. Dancing in front of the mirror was not going to cut it for me tonight!! She is a great dancer and I was surprised when she told me that she was glad that I passed by, because she said she needed to dance too!!

Now it’s on to breaking down my Salsa collection on my MP3 player while I get ready for tomorrow…

Thanks again!!

No problem Polarica, glad to be of help. Hope your collection is enough to keep you busy during the day before you go dancing. :D