Why would people dance NY style?

[brujo]

For those who are familiar with mambo and casino ( or, the older, rotational style of Colombian salsa ). What exactly is the appeal of the NY and LA styles?

The slotted positioning of NY/LA style, all the extraneous hand motions and styling, and the multiple spins all seem too artificial to me. Sure, it looks good if you want to show off, but with the more traditional styles you get to feel more. Am I wrong?

[looyenyeo]

I blame it on the shape of the room.

No, I'm serious.

Lots of lessons are taught in square/rectangular rooms. Many teachers make use of the walls as markers, to make it easy for their students to orientate themselves during the course of learning a combination. Hence students get used to using the 90/180 degree angles more than any other.

Without apportioning blame, dancers are not often encouraged to explore the points of flexibility in a dance element (aka. combination component) where new angles can be created; the different possible arcs of movement; how to anticipate, create and occupy available space.

A simple start would be to re-orientate the students into the corners so that they would be diagonal to the floor, two-thirds of the way into a lesson. That would encourage the use of 45 degree segments (corners in conjuntion with walls assuming a square floor).

I think that Eddie Torries is good to watch because of the angles he uses, although he teaches slot.

Just think, the Casino ballroom was circular, and what came out of it?

Approaching things from a different angle,
(Ugly pun, isn't it?)
Loo

[youngsta]

The slotted positioning of NY/LA style, all the extraneous hand motions and styling, and the multiple spins all seem too artificial to me. Sure, it looks good if you want to show off, but with the more traditional styles you get to feel more. Am I wrong?
This has nothing to do with those particular styles and EVERYTHING to do with the dancers. I don't believe you feel more dancing casino/cuban/colombian style.

[brujo]

Number one, there are so many quality dancers. There are over 200 or 300 excellent dancers who look ordinary here, but would be superstars anywhere else. You also have some of the best teachers in the world, including Eddie Torres, Addie and Angel Rodriquez, Freddie Rios, and countless others. Then there is the incredible music scene. So many of the top Salsa bands reside here, and they play in the clubs all the time. You have over 120 latin clubs in the metropolitan area, and at least one club a night devoted to dancers. So to be a New York Salsero is to have tremendous resources and if your born here, you take it for granted.

Then there's the On 2 factor. Virtually all the schools teach on 2, the style made famous by Eddie Torres. Any dance event will be dominated by this style, and the attitude is, if you don't know how to dance on 2, you are not a good dancer. So to be a New York Salsero, usually means being a on 2 snob. This doesn't mean everyone dances on 2. Non-studio dancer who grew up dancing salsa in their homes learn to dance on 1 or 3, or without a sense of structured timing. This is most of New York. But of course, the dancers are the one you notice on the dance floor, and this becomes the predominant style.

Being a New York Salsero definitely means dealing with the New York attitude, and surviving. If you go to an Eddie Torres class, you see people who know the moves, and aren't very supportive if you don't it. If you make a mistake in partner work, you can expect a disapproving look, or condescending comment. If you survive, it only gets worse on the dance floor. Not all classes are like this, but the you can see the results in the attitude of some people.

The style for New York salsa means dancing clean, spinning with control, and dancing in a slot. This concept isn't understood anywhere in the world as it is practiced here in New York. Looking cool is more important than looking flashy. No one does dips or trips, and rueda is very rare. The dance community in New York frowns upon this. I think this is a weakness, as people get stuck here in what they are used to. If you do a turn sequence that a woman is unfamiliar with, she'll think you suck, and give you, or her friend next you, a look of disapproval. You also see people give very reserved expressions on their face. I think that's a reflection of New York culture. We take the subway with a thousand people, and never look anyone in the eye, or say hello to anyone you know.

Being a Salsero in New York means being devoted to shines or footwork. The footwork here is phenomenal because half of every salsa class is devoted to shines. While I say this is good, I think our community would grow if there was a focus on movement for the entire body. There is minimalist philosophy for a lot of dancers here. Many New Yorkers aren't going to do anything different or experimental in their dance, because they are so focused on dancing clean. This happens because the culture in New York is so tough and competitive, dancers don't want to be a target for criticism by making a mistake or looking different. The results of this is very little body movement and expression, and a lot of familiar spins and turns. One criticism of New York dancing is that it all looks the same. Well, if it all looks great, that's not too bad, is it?



[ http://www.thesalsaguide.com/articles/article006.html ]

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

The slotted positioning of NY/LA style, all the extraneous hand motions and styling, and the multiple spins all seem too artificial to me. Sure, it looks good if you want to show off, but with the more traditional styles you get to feel more. Am I wrong?
This has nothing to do with those particular styles and EVERYTHING to do with the dancers. I don't believe you feel more dancing casino/cuban/colombian style.

I totally agree with you youngsta. :)

[youngsta]

So Brujo just because someone wrote that in an article you believe it's true for everyone that dances those styles? I find there are just as many people that don't have that attitude. I've also found dancers with that attitude who dance casino style...it's all about the personality of the dancers imho.

[borikensalsero]

I know of the person who wrote the article, I've seen him dance too many times. I somewhat agree to some of the comments on the lack of "inside the lines of NY City style" but not the reasons for it. He has forgoten to mention that if most of us don't know something exists we will never learn it, do it, and even less teach it. Not to mention that when the floor is jammed packed, it is easier to dance not moving around from your slot spot. That is the case in NY City, if you think you will rueda, circle, or diagonaly move around the floor you will be watching most the night. While it can be done when the floor isn't jammed packed, it isn't very nice of you to move a girl in circles increasing the chances to move into someones space when the floor is crowded.

And nope, a style isn't a limitation of how much someone feels salsa. My mom can't dance, and if you see her listening to salsa she looks like she is in a trance. She can't even merengue.

[brujo]

So Brujo just because someone wrote that in an article you believe it's true for everyone that dances those styles? I find there are just as many people that don't have that attitude. I've also found dancers with that attitude who dance casino style...it's all about the personality of the dancers imho.

No. I'm listing the viewpoint from someone who obviously knows the scene in new york to provide points to this discussion. I find that sometimes the instructors have the best grasp on the deficiencies on their own scenes.

Of course the dance depends on the dancers, but my question concerns the fundamental elements of the dance and the music. Mambo is a big city dance with big city attitudes. Of course, if you are in New York, there is pretty much no way around it.

From the Toronto point of view, we have an extremely large latin community. The salsa scene here has been fed largely by native Colombians and Venezuelans who bring their own style of salsa. LA style has slowly been coming into the scene in maybe the last five years. Ask all the old school instructors about this new acrobatic style, and the complaints are always the same : The music is too fast, the movements too artificial and the dance is more about flash than feeling.

In watching a lot of the dancers in our scene, there seems to be few times when the people come together and just dance the basics feeling the music, as they are always trying to catch the next double spin.

So far, you haven't provided one benefit of New York style over colombian style. I'll give you a couple from Casino + Colombian style that I have seen:

-> Easier to follow. The way turns are lead in the traditional style are more momentum based, while the NY turns, for the sake of being controlled and allow multiple spins, rely heavily on the follower. The way the turns are taught, you cannot grab a girl from the street and make her turn without her looking confused from the lead alone. The slotted style is also not immediately noticeable.

-> More body movement in Colombian style. The man and the woman both move their entire bodies while dancing, LA style is a lot stiffer, in fact, I know instructors who discourage moving the body to have a better lead.

[Jacira]

I have to agree with those who say Cuban, Casino style salsa is less "posed" than LA or NY styles. The LA style in my humble opinion, is great for TV and movies... very glitzy with lots of dips and flips that have absolutely ZERO to do with salsa. You may be interested in reading an article I wrote about what IS Cuban Casino style salsa. You can find it here: http://www.salsapower.com/editorials/casino.htm

A seguir bailando, pues la salsa es la fuente de la juventud eterna!

Jacira

[Sagitta]

A warm welcome to the forums Jacira!! We are very happy to have another knowledgable person participate in our discussions! :D I have enjoyed browsing your site, learning history from the CD reviews, etc.

[Jacira]

A warm welcome to the forums Jacira!! We are very happy to have another knowledgable person participate in our discussions! :D I have enjoyed browsing your site, learning history from the CD reviews, etc.

Thank you! I wish I had more time to participate in forums, but with over 500 pages to keep updated, not to mention private salsa classes, other client's web sites (I do web design), the occasional international congress and my son's activities... that is pretty difficult! Feel free however, to ask anything about Cuban style and I will try and get you the answer if I don't know it myself!

Deseandoles mucha salsa a todos en el nuevo a~no!
Jacira

[youngsta]

So far, you haven't provided one benefit of New York style over colombian style.
And I never planned to. If you love dancing that style more power to you! No need to try and take shots at another style because of your distaste for it. There are plenty of variations to satisfy all of us.

[brujo]

So far, you haven't provided one benefit of New York style over colombian style.
And I never planned to. If you love dancing that style more power to you! No need to try and take shots at another style because of your distaste for it. There are plenty of variations to satisfy all of us.

There is a difference between taking shots and trying to understand why people prefer one style over the other. I usually have fun dancing with LA / NY style dancers, but I've never developed the love for the style for the reasons I mentioned. Come on, NY dancers, why? why? why? This is a discussion board, for crying out loud!

[borikensalsero]

Brujo, why do some prefer NY City style? Have you been to NY City? Why do you think the article describes the average NY City dancer going any where in the world and being one of the best upon arrival? Just like it takes years of practice to do ballroom, is the same with Mambo style dance. Why do some like driving a 100 miles an hour? The same reason some drive the same vehicle at 50 Mph. Preference.

Mambo isn’t something the average Joe off the street can do. It is something generated by desire, willingness to do a dance above what the norm is, something that compiles Cuban style, Colombian style, Rican style, hustle, jazz, tap, you get the point. That some people don’t do it is a completely different thing. But that it is called for in the music, as well as the dance, indeed.

Mambo style calls for just about every dance, minus the aerial shows, neither Colombian, nor Cuban style call for such dances to be incorporated into them. Mambo style does. Hence, why you need to be able to spin, on time, without wobbling around, move feet around, move your body around, to master the dance. The lady has to be strong solo dancer because, Mambo mastery isn’t the Jail house of 2 dancers, where the male says you go here and shut up, I’m the leader and I’m going to take you there! Rather the game played when dancing solo. The mastery of dancing mambo must be greater than that of Cuban style as well as Colombian for someone to dance it well. Hence, why a person who doesn’t know a lick about mambo dancing can’t do it. Because if you can’t drive a car what makes you think you can fly a jet? Then have the right to complain because you can’t fly a Jet, hence, it isn’t as good as car.

What is NY City style? It is only the stepping of 1,2,3 5,6,7, but breaking on 2, nothing else. The preference of the dance is to dance on the slot, however, incorporation of circular, angular, etc, go just as well with the dance. If the person lacks the body movement you speak of, it has more to do with personal ability than hindrance of style. Ala Rumba movements, something salsa calls for, but is absent in Colombian style, however, it is called for and danced in NY City style. Again, that people don’t do it is different than the style no having it.

The fundamentals of NY City style? You can’t move the body as much while stepping over the 4 on way to the 5 or, 8 on way to the 1. That is all that pretty much hinders the amount of body movement. That New Yorkers have attitudes? Yes. Does it come out when they dance? Yes. So, does everyone else’s attitude. The movements are artificial only to those that can’t do them, and because of those that do them are more worried about the move than the dance, hence failing to feel the dance. Again brujo, it isn’t a limit of the dance but the limit of people that dance it. Remember that dancing well and looking like you enjoy it because of a smile isn’t feeling the dance.

I don’t like momentum based moves. Why? They stress too much strength-control over the partner. Salsa isn’t about momentum, nor egotistical control. It is about a sharing of power and grace, which should display the women more, because the word “woman” alone means sensuality. How much sensuality is there on momentum? None. It limits itself in that is the way you are coming and where you must. Instead of masterfully guiding the lady to a completely unexpected spot, yet ever so smoothly. The side and back stepping with one leg are of an on1 dance form(the cumbia basic step has its origin on1 dancing where the body calls for side to side motion, hence allowing a circular dance), I dance on2, so I enjoy dancing back and forth and on the slot. On2 calls for a back and forth motion, less arm sway across the body. The body is going back and forth, why fight it and swing the arms across the body side to side. See, the incorporation of on1 to NY City style on2.

Easier to follow? Sure, it isn’t advanced; it requires no prior knowledge of any beat, form or technique. Remember, if the average Joe off the street isn’t ready to fly a Jet, then don’t blame the Jet for being complicate. It just is, the problem is that it takes time to learn to fly it. I don’t want to grab someone form the street and make them dance. I want to dance with someone. I don’t care to know that I can make someone dance and follow me. I already know I can. I want to be able to share something with someone. Not my egotistical gain of how well I manage to move around a girl from the street that never danced before. Why? Because leading someone isn’t dancing!

There are hindrances to every style. Personal preference, guided by geographical embedded ideas acting as the driving force for why the style I dance is better. Had you been born in NY City, you would be asking why isn’t everyone dancing NY City style, and why it is better. Nothing to do with the style, but how the self needs to acknowledge that it is doing something how it needs to be done and the why, which it has forgotten that it can be applied to the complete opposite of what it is doing.

Remeber, the music is complicated, so why must the dance not be? If musicians need to be educated and learn percussion to play salsa. Then the dancers better go through equal dance education to give thanks to those people who are making us shake our souls. The more we know, the closer we can get to dancing a genre that incorportes just about every other genre, even cumbia. Now, NY City style calls for all of that, that people don't do it, is something different.

[borikensalsero]

I have to agree with those who say Cuban, Casino style salsa is less "posed" than LA or NY styles. The LA style in my humble opinion, is great for TV and movies... very glitzy with lots of dips and flips that have absolutely ZERO to do with salsa. You may be interested in reading an article I wrote about what IS Cuban Casino style salsa. You can find it here: http://www.salsapower.com/editorials/casino.htm

A seguir bailando, pues la salsa es la fuente de la juventud eterna!

Jacira

Welcome to the forums! Lovely to have another salsera aboard. :D

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Because leading someone isn’t dancing!




Boriken, just to say I really enjoyed reading your post.

[borikensalsero]

Because leading someone isn’t dancing!




Boriken, just to say I really enjoyed reading your post.

Thank you MapleLeaft. :D

[brujo]

Interesting points, Boriken.

Yes, I have been to NYC. There are great dancers there. I have also seen great Cuban dancers. What's the point?

I never said that the traditional styles can be done by Joe from the street. I said they are easy to follow. The difference is that Cuban and Colombian moves are more closely related to body movements and don't have as many rules to the carefully choreographed nature of NY / LA styles. Using your analogy, mambo would be like learning to fly a Cesna. You can do highly sophisticated tricks with the Cesna, but nothing else. Learning to dance the Cuban and colombian styles is learning to fly airplanes in general, the level of the person following should not affect the type of moves that you do.

You seem to confuse influence with essence. Sure, mambo has its roots in son. Does this mean that son just stopped evolving after its essence was completely sucked up by mambo? So an island of 11 million people who dance all day just decided, you know, this style we have is good enough, let's stop there and let the New Yorkers make it better. Cuban Casino is very hard to master because it is subtle, very simple looking moves are actually more intricate and sophisticated than they look. LA / NY style is the exact opposite, very difficult moves to the observer ( double spins, etc ) are easy due to the understanding between the dancers. If you pluck one of the dancers from New York and put them somewhere else, their dancing will suck because the woman will not know how to compensate for him, he will be expecting certain moves, but she will not be able to do them and would be confused as to why she can't follow him.

No understanding of the beat? How can you like Grupo Niche and Oscar De Leon and completely dismiss the musical cultures that raised them? Cubans have been dancing on1 and on2 for ages, but it doesn't really matter that much to them because one person keeps the beat so the other person shouldn't have to worry about it. Your "Dancer's Jail" is nothing more than that, a different shift in responsabilities. The leader is going to decide the moves and the timing, the woman can accept, or she can do her own thing.

Digging deeper, mambo is a big city dance with all the flash and glitz of the big city. The great Metropolis is very concerned about the way you look. You said it yourself, It is about a sharing of power and grace, which should display the women more, because the word “woman” alone means sensuality. . My question is who the hell are you displaying her to? Can't she display herself? Isn't that why you asked her to dance in the first place? Are you dancing with her, or the people you are displaying her to? In a culture where material things and looks are everything, salsa seems to be equated with being seen dancing with the perfect woman that is sexy and styling and slim. Is this why the older women at the clubs never seem to get a dance?

How do I look at the sensual aspect of the dance? The woman is sensous, she is sexy, she is already all that. The man can really do nothing to accent this. A beautiful woman in a double spin is no sexier than a woman sitting by herself. I dance with her, I make her feel like a queen by looking out for her on the dance floor, I try moves that are fun, that feel good to her, if people look, fine, if they don't, even better.

In Latin America, dancing is about fun. People might not be able to do sophisticated double turns, underarm dips and dance with their body, but their dancing is an extension of their unique personalities. It's not about moves and patterns and the right way of doing stuff. It's about using your body to flirt, to be funny, to express whatever the hell you want to express. It's not about dancing like everyone else, it's about your own, unique, individual style. Problem with this? Unless you are very good or have good guidance, you can't really open up dance schools all across the board and make money off it.

Mambo has its strengths. It's easier to teach. It is more structured. Its focus on individual dancing is a lot stronger. It is more technique based. It has really interesting shines and spins. Would I dance this after I have experienced the other styles? Only if the girls dancing it are really hot..

[borikensalsero]

Yes, I have been to NYC. There are great dancers there. I have also seen great Cuban dancers. What's the point?
The point is stressed by the article you quoted. An average NY city dancer is among the best anywhere in the world. Again, making someone dance isn’t dancing.

Easy to follow is dependent on lead. Every dance has its complicated patterns as well as easy patterns. Which means that skill is needed for any one follower and leader to be able to do the complicated patterns of any given dance.

It seems that you really are misunderstanding the NY City style dancer. As an example, I do rumba, cumbia, merengue, reggae moves yet using NY City style. Why? Because I’ve learned how to. Those, who do not, don’t. Hence, the people you refer to as NY City dancers. You speak of them, not the style. Remember that it isn’t the game but the player. I can refer to many, many Cubans who rueda, yet can’t do much of anything with anyone besides the same moves over and over. It’s about skill brujo, and why you are learning rueda, because if you weren’t taught the little ins and outs you wouldn’t be as proficient. That its learning curve is not as steep has nothing to do with seeking a skill.

The level of the follower is directly related to the level of the pattern. Had that not been the case, you and I would be competing in salsa world competitions with anyone girl at a club and have a chance to win. If the patterns are simple, then yes, anyone can follow. But we can’t say that a merengue player can play salsa because he is a musician and all music is the same. Not one and the same, any why there is complicated music and not. Salsa is a complicated music, so is its dance. Original Mambo music in cuba was simple, in today’s salsa standard, hence a dance that fit it. It takes skill to do those things that are higher in sophistication. There is no way around that. So, yes to follow NY City mambo, you have to know how to dance, not just wing it. Mambo is like flying a X-14 hovering fighter jet. You can make it purr like a baby, glide it through the skies like a bird, gently start and stop it, or make the sky its dancing grounds limitless of what it can do.

The essence wasn’t sucked up by mambo, but so by the people that dance it. Cuban Mambo, isn’t the same as NY City mambo. They are two totally different dances. NY city Mambo involves son, charanga, pachanga, jazz, tap, merengue, cumbia steps, etc. Cuban mambo originally didn’t and doesn’t.

Yes, when you see advance NY city dancers, the moves are difficult to observe, as they should be. These people have spent countless hours to do things others can’t. Done so, not only to pay tribute to themselves, but the music. So, if the music is difficult, the dance should be as well, the intricacy of the moves, to he who don’t know a thing about mambo, should look difficult. Yet, they should see the grace, mastery, and easiness of how flawlessly the dancers make it seem.

If you pluck one of the dancers from New York and put them somewhere else, their dancing will suck because the woman will not know how to compensate for him, he will be expecting certain moves, but she will not be able to do them and would be confused as to why she can't follow him.

A great dancer compensates for the level of lesser dancer. No ifs and buts. If a NY City dancer chooses to do sophisticated moves to women who can’t dance it, then he will look like he sucks. That goes even in merengue. The best dancer must always go down to the level of the lesser dancer. And there are more than enough simple moves who the average Joe down the street can do in Mambo. It is about how the person dances a given style, not what can be done to that style. If anyone chooses to do any kind of advance moves to someone who can’t even walk, then they deserve to look like they suck in any style.

Cubans have been dancing on1 and on2 for ages, but it doesn't really matter that much to them because one person keeps the beat so the other person shouldn't have to worry about it. Your "Dancer's Jail" is nothing more than that, a different shift in responsabilities. The leader is going to decide the moves and the timing, the woman can accept, or she can do her own thing.
1- No, the leader doesn’t decide the timing. Timing is decided by the music. Cubans, folk dancers don’t let one person keep the beat, so the other person doesn’t worry about it. When done so, it is because one dancer must never loose beat while the other dances doing his/her thing, he must be one with the music and keep rhythm at all times. That is a street belief, one generated from a lesser understanding of what dancing is about. Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn’t understand Cuban music, its origin and true purpose, even if they are Cuban.
2- Both dancers need to worry about the timing. If all the musicians in the band are worried about being in synch. Then dancers must too. How nice would it be for you to lead me Cuban style on1 and me dancing it on2? If you are forcing me to be on1, then we aren’t dancing, we are fighting each other. Both dancers must worry about the beat. If they don’t, they aren’t dancing to the music, with the music, nor each other, but 2 selves fighting to dance as one.
3- A dance Jail is when the man decides what is happening all the time without regards to the music or the woman. Except for romantic Cuban music, their music has never been danced with the man controlling the woman 100% of time. It is only done so by those who do not know the complexity of Cuban rhythms. They don’t know what dancing to Afro-Cuban rhythms is all about. It’s a matting ritual brujo, on top of that religious implications which were done more of a solo dance than not. Remember where percussion came from and what it was used for, and how it found its way to European rhythms to form what we have today.

My question is who the hell are you displaying her to? Can't she display herself? Isn't that why you asked her to dance in the first place? Are you dancing with her, or the people you are displaying her to? In a culture where material things and looks are everything, salsa seems to be equated with being seen dancing with the perfect woman that is sexy and styling and slim. Is this why the older women at the clubs never seem to get a dance? I try moves that are fun, that feel good to her, if people look, fine, if they don't, even better.

Despite what anyone tells you, you are, one and foremost dancing for you and your mate, 2- the crowd. Why? Because as long as someone is looking at you, even if you don’t care what they think. They are enjoying the same dance as you to a different perspective. They, as spectators and you as the sharing of the music with your other half. Who are you ultimately displaying her to? Yourself! You are allowing her to give all of her to the dance to show you what coming together will be like. Example, the mating ritual of birds. They’ll fly around each other for long periods of time, it is expectacular to watch. They are “fluriting” with each other, but because we are looking, they are putting a display for us. Difference of perspective, it is what is happening to everyone around, not only us, despite how to ourselves we dance.

Not looking because you are shy to display what you are doing to that woman? You don’t want every other woman to know what will await them when brujo holds them within his arms? You don’t want them to know that, hey, this guy brujo is going to take care of me! I want to dance with him because he is going to take me from this world and put me in his arms. Regardless what you think, that is what will happen. You are dancing for Brujo alone, but those around are responding to it, only because they just happen to be participant-observers. In a world where everyone shares social events, you are doomed to share your dancing inner pleasures with everyone around you.

To people that want to have fun dancing in latin America is about fun. To those who seek further events it is about such, seeking something further than fun. I should know, I grew up in a latin American country. In every country music has always been dances for fun, then there are those who seek to further it to an art form, because of the love and passion they have for it. To some it is simply about fun but to others it is a lifestyle. So, we take all of what the people are doing for fun and we add one thousands things to it to take it to places where the person having fun has never been.

Only if the girls dancing it are really hot..

Dance for love brujo, not for looks, regardless of what style it is. They are all art forms, they are all beautiful, they shouldn’t be compared, and its saddening, they should be taken for what they are. A form for of self-expression, and implanting egotistical beliefs upon them not necessary for us to share and enjoy the dance.

Darn, Let me apologize for the length of the post. I talk too much, but crapola, I sure enjoy interchanging ideas with you.

[peachexploration]

Darn, Let me apologize for the length of the post. I talk too much, but crapola, I sure enjoy interchanging ideas with you.

Boriken, no need to apologize. I could read your posts all day and never get tired. Thanks for always providing us with good information about the "beauty" of Salsa! :D I can't wait for my next On2 class! :banana:

[borikensalsero]

Darn, Let me apologize for the length of the post. I talk too much, but crapola, I sure enjoy interchanging ideas with you.

Boriken, no need to apologize. I could read your posts all day and never get tired. Thanks for always providing us with good information about the "beauty" of Salsa! :D I can't wait for my next On2 class! :banana:

:D :D :D :D .... You go Girl!!! :D :D :D :D

I hope you have a blast in class, get down like never before... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPA!! Thanks for the kind words.

[TheArchon]

Where i live, the only style studied and danced, is the L.A style (i think, back and foward, style in the moves), i dont even know what mambo is... and i think i do know some colombian(very close, step in the place, and also steps to the side as in cha cha).

But i do like the L.A style, and i wonder why no one teaches other styles :roll: :?: and i dont think it has anything to do with the shape of the room...

They also teaches alot of Rueda here, but i hate it, i want to decide how my dance partner here.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes, i've just returned from a dancing party...

[peachexploration]

....i dont even know what mambo is......

Take a look at this link. It showcases some of the most talented Mambo dancers in New York. Take a look at Galleries 1,2, &3. Enjoy! http://mamboston2.com

[Sagitta]

and i think i do know... steps to the side as in cha cha).


Can you be talking about bachata here? If you are interested there is a thread on this in our forums. Click on the link below:

what is bachata? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=762&highlight=bachata)

[TheArchon]

Thnks for your explaination, I didn't really see much diffrent from mambo to the LA style, all the LA style elements, are the same as mambo, mybe you can put some elements in LA style with step number four(like hold then fast spin). i guess i mix the styles, but its fun that way, it gives you more moves.

Whats the NY style btw?

[brujo]

Boriken,

You seem to group all the benefits of dancing and associate it with your style. There is a great difference between choosing to dance and choosing to dance new york style. Choosing to lead better, social dancers wanting to persue more, followers being helped by the leader, bla bla bla all relate to dancing in general, it shouldn't matter if I chose mambo or polka.

I have been taking lessons about 3 times a week in this style for about a year. I understand the focus of it. The highly sophisticated technique that is needed. The double spins, the hand flicks, the difference between dancing on 1 and on 2, bla, bla, bla. There are clubs in Toronto where this style is predominant, and I have danced with dancers of this style here. I have also danced with people from New York, Detroit, etc. I believe I have a firm grasp for what the style calls for.

But Mambo is still mambo. A dance that grew up in the ultimate big city. The epitome of north american attitude. A city that has the reputation of being snobby and rude even in its own country. Ever hear the song plastico by Willie Colon and Ruben Blades. Mambo is latin dance that has gone through the plastico filter and cultural sensitivities of new york city.

You look at merengue and bachata and dismiss them because they are simple dances. You look at perreo and despelote and laugh at it, who would want to do dances like that, it's not mambo. You think that complex patterns can only be complicated because of the amount of movement you can cram into one or two eight beats. You add direction changes and double spins to a pattern and call it complicated because of the amount of bodily control that it requires.

Sure Mambo has flash. I have danced with women who I felt absolutely no connection with, and have people tell me afterwards that we looked great together. But when salseras tell me laugh and say, 'cool, simple salsa' when I don't do double spins during slow songs, it breaks my heart.

Dancing is not about making someone dance. True. Is not about physically shifting them from spot to spot. Correct. But do you trully believe that dancing is dancing only when you conform to certain movements approved by Eddie Torres into his curriculum and that a person that doesn't move forward and back to the rhythm on the 2 beat is a bad dancer?

I believe that mambo is really nice. It is packed with moves that can fill up a million instructional videos. You can integrate hip hop and whatever to it. It requires great skill. Bravo, more power to you. But ultimately, I believe that a person that was raised within a dancing community in Cuba or Colombia will come to the mambo scene and be completely turned off by it.

Ever seen the movie 'Y tu Mama tambien'? There is a great scene in it where a grandmother is dancing by herself inside a kitchen, where the rest of the family is preparing a meal inside the restaurant. This is the essence of dancing in latin america, not something that you can only do after taking a bunch of lessons, learning to lead with your body, have a pair of really nice shoes, and is restricted to the confines of a hardwood dance floor.

I look at casino rueda, it is a community event where you get to dance with everyone. A complicated pattern in rueda might involve body control and understanding of how the arms bend, but it also involves being able to stay in the right kind of spots, one move that extends over several bars of music, a level of complexity that you don't get in the one on one dance of New York Style.

[borikensalsero]

Brujo
You seem to group all the benefits of dancing and associate it with your style. There is a great difference between choosing to dance and choosing to dance new york style. Choosing to lead better, social dancers wanting to persue more, followers being helped by the leader, bla bla bla all relate to dancing in general, it shouldn't matter if I chose mambo or polka.

Brujo there is no difference between dancing and choosing a way to dance. But there is a difference between moving ala. Freestyle, and dancing to a beat.

I dance the style, but I prefer dancing power2, I find it more suitable for my goals as a dancer. I find that Eddie Torres on2 style doesn’t mold to the areas of dancing that I stress. Talking to me about fancy footwork and moves is like talking to a conservationist about saving Mother Nature, but blaming the earth instead of the people. I agree with you in most of your statements about the style, however, I don’t credit such behavior to the style, but to the people. A style has nothing to do with what a person does with it. I cannot and will never fault NY City style for the feelings that you have over how people dance it; it isn’t its fault. Blaming the style is like blaming the car for the driver loosing control of it. What you see is the fault of the people who think spinning like a top is dancing. You said it yourself; yet don’t look behind the style (Plastico By Ruben). Not what is there for them to do, but the people. Those who think that a 100 shine steps is dancing. I am an advocate against that kind of thinking. It goes for just about every dance, not just NY Style on2. I say it to the on1 dancers, I say it to the rueda dancers, I say it to the Power2 dancers, I say it to just about everyone. Fancy footwork, lots of complicated spins isn’t dancing, it doesn’t matter what style a person dances, if there is no connection between the dancers/music/ and the self there is no dancing. All there can be is an illusion, the illusion that instructors pass down from student to student to at the end have what you complain about. But again, don’t blame the game, blame the player and only to a degree. How can anyone know of something he never knows exists. In a world were a person is limited by that around him, many will never be able to think outside the norm.

I have been taking lessons about 3 times a week in this style for about a year. I understand the focus of it. The highly sophisticated technique that is needed.

If you understood the focus you would be complaining about the people and what they teach. Not the style. It is about what you are being taught that you complain. Not the style. You are being taught all the things that your heart tells you it doesn’t want to do. Listen to it, and let your instructor know where he is lacking. If you feel the same way, it is most likely that your instructor is passing it down the same belief to everyone as well. He mistakes the look of the dance for what its supposed to do. Hence, limiting the dancer within of every student, yet call it NY Style because he teaches the steps associated with it. Again, the player not the game. It isn’t what the style calls for Brujo, but the music. The style calls for nothing that isn’t within the music. That is the dancer’s job to screw up.

But Mambo is still mambo. A dance that grew up in the ultimate big city.
Mambo is what people make it brujo, not what the style is. Without the people to make it look like an extension of themselves, there is no complaining about the dance. Hence, why it looks the way it does to you. If you see me dance, you will see a totally different view of mambo. I choose to use mambo as a manifestation of what I’m about in the innerself. Not what Plastico is, with shine patterns/high skill combo patterns, ect. An object/style/ect can not have meaning without a mind to evaluate it.

I dismiss any dance that doesn’t make me shake. The same reason I am more attracted to brunets, over blonds is the same way I choose mambo over bachata and merengue. I’m sure you also find a color more appealing than others, yet don’t say you choose one over the other because of simplicity. That some thing is simple has nothing to do with how it makes someone feel.

The word complicated is dependant on thinking. Spinning a 100x isn’t difficult, neither is directional change. What I deem complicated is expressing the soul, not spinning, shine patterns, nor directional change. That a less skilled dancer sees it complicated only means that the mind is not ready, but eventually will be and no longer will it see complicated.

Sure Mambo has flash. I have danced with women who I felt absolutely no connection with, and have people tell me afterwards that we looked great together. But when salseras tell me laugh and say, 'cool, simple salsa' when I don't do double spins during slow songs, it breaks my heart.

Brjuo, you are dancing with people who don’t know what dancing is about. Don’t get mad at them because you know better. I’ve gone through the same, and why I’ve chosen to speak against that kind of mentality. I find nothing appealing with spinning a million times, doing highly skilled patterns, nor shines. I refuse to do them, no matter whom I’m dancing with. But, don’t blame the style, but the person. Maybe you can hope to show them what you see, not fight against what they see.

But do you trully believe that dancing is dancing only when you conform to certain movements approved by Eddie Torres into his curriculum and that a person that doesn't move forward and back to the rhythm on the 2 beat is a bad dancer?

I’m against everyone who teaches dancers not to be themselves on the dance floor. Had I been for a curriculum I’d be all for Isaac’s thinking. It doesn’t matter what dance, whether it is tango/hip hop/merengue, I don’t care who/what/how someone teaches patterns or steps. I care how they guide the person to become themselves on the dancefloor. That I care to Mambo to express my inner-self has nothing to do with the means of doing it. Everyone that moves is a good dancer, but ultimately I believe anyone who makes their calling to be a dancer and doesn’t reach his innerself in the art form is a bad dancer, regardless what style or type of dance they choose.

The essence of dancing in latin America is what each person makes it. Not what a movie paints it to be. For as many scenes a movie paints I can show you a real life latin family who stresses that dancing is the devils work. It has to do with up bringing; we can’t categorize an entire nation on a single movie or what our friends say. But again, there is a huge difference between dancing for fun and the passion for which the dancer seeks an art form that a person who merely dances for fun can never see.

one move that extends over several bars of music, a level of complexity that you don't get in the one on one dance of New York Style.

We can train anyone to do complex moves, how about just letting the soul go? If it was that easy maybe a few people would have figured it out by now that it isn’t about complication but unity with the music and your partner. I don’t care to see, who does the most complicated pattern during a social dance. All I care to know what unity with the music, your partner, yourself a person can achieve. For every dance has a complicated move. If a person can’t do ONE move that extends over sever bars, then they aren’t really all that skilled dancers are they? Skill, brujo, skill, not the dance, nor the pattern, but the person. Dancing is about the people, not the style, nor type of dance, but the people.

[brujo]

The essence of dancing in latin America is what each person makes it. Not what a movie paints it to be. For as many scenes a movie paints I can show you a real life lin family who stresses that dancing is the devils work. It has to do with up bringing; we can’t categorize an entire nation on a single movie or what our friends say. But again, there is a huge difference between dancing for fun and the passion for which the dancer seeks an art form that a person who merely dances for fun can never see.



You are completely missing my point.

What that scenes paints to me is the essence of dancing in Latin America. It is deeply engrained in the everyday life of the people. As such, it has the same sense of humor, the same warmth and the same relaxed attitud towards life. Not the defensive vibe that latino culture tries to protect in North America. A cuban teacher of mine explained once that she took all our mistakes personally because for her, dance is something personal and sacred. They work, they eat, and they dance. It is part of life. Not just fun, but an expression of the culture and beliefs.

I am speaking against both the stylistic aspects of New York style and the philosophy propagated by its instructors in videos, workshops and students. Are you even aware of how toxic this style is to foreign dance scenes? I am sure you can see it in your own scene.

The style gains popularity because it has been systematically broken down and geared towards teaching. Within a few months, students of the style gain the mastery of technique and begin to dance with multiple turns and flash. Other dancers in the scene take notice, seek out the same instructors and the professional and acrobatic version of the dance is spread. People don't seek out the dancers that have soul or groove to the music because they don't stand out. Soon enough, the native dancers stop going to the clubs, they can't get enough dances. The teachers of the older styles lose their students, or are forced to adapt to the new style. They drop out of the scene. Soon enough, the new york philosophy has infected the entire scene. New dancers don't ever get exposed to the multiple dimensions of the dance, when they go to lessons, they are taught the form of the dance, but never the essence.

The new york philosophy is fast food salsa. It looks great, almost like the real thing, but has absolutely no nutritional value.

[borikensalsero]

You are completely missing my point.
Indeed, I have missed your point, I apologize for that, and you are correct. Music in Latin American is pretty much a lifestyle.

I am speaking against both the stylistic aspects of New York style and the philosophy propagated by its instructors in videos, workshops and students. Are you even aware of how toxic this style is to foreign dance scenes? I am sure you can see it in your own scene.

Indeed I see it everyday, however, I do not put down the hard work that these people have done to achieve the skill level they have, I instead try to teach that mixing philosophies from the old and the new yields to even more excitement in their dance. It is toxic because it stands out, it brings forth a measure that other styles don’t, the problem, just like anything else, is over-indulgence, not the style, but the thinking of those who do it.

This is where money took over, the United States is a showy society, we want everything yesterday hence the philosophy of its biggest city finds its way to its native dance. However, within that society there are people like you and I who see differently and try to campaign, not against someone’s thinking but to introduce new ideas and hope that this new form of thinking becomes part of them and eventually show in their dance.

Remember that it is one philosophy of dancing mambo in NY City, not the entire philosophy, for had it been that way I too would belong to it. NY City latin community is made out of every latin ethnicity, so how can I say that NY City Style is a one minded monster? Brujo, when you are taught to do something, a given way, for 25 years, do you think that you can change that over night? Nope, all you can hope for is for someone to introduce you new things.

NY City style is like the fast and slow salsa songs. I can’t get mad that fast songs are wild, I must take them and love them for what they are, then love the slower ones just like I love the fast ones, with one heart. The fast speed part of the NY City Style is directed to those songs. How can there be anything wrong with it when the style goes so well with fast salsa? If salsa music has many flavors, then there ought to be a million and one styles to dance it, to which none is better than the other, but surely one style more pleasing than the next to each individual. True mastery of a dance comes when the person can transcend all the philosophies and barriers and break through and dance every song with all the love and connection they can muster, regardless of style.

The battle over best is waged by the ego. We seek to elevate our status by putting those things we don’t do, or aren’t good at, or simply don’t like, down. Once we accomplish so, our thinking becomes supreme and ego feels better. You are wasting energy advocating the negative in a form that has none. What best suits you and me, is to show the other side of salsa that many new dancers don’t know about. Hence, what you need to display through your dance is your philosophy. Once you do this, and do it well, people will follow. Don’t worry that NY City dancers stand out and the control a given local scene, worry about how your energy and dancing will root just as strong as well in that local scene. Then and only then can you demonstrate your side of dancing.

The new york philosophy is fast food salsa. It looks great, almost like the real thing, but has absolutely no nutritional value.

The nutritional value of the dance isn’t what others think of it but that which the person doing it gets out of it. I can dance NY City style forever and guarantee you most people dancing any style will never get the same nutrition value as I have from that style. It is a matter of what I can get out of something not what something does or doesn’t offer me. Like Americans say, because you went to college it doesn’t mean you got an education. It is about the people not the style.

That is the difference between your philosophy and mine; you are concerned with how it looks rather than how it makes people feel. There is nothing you do that will make you feel better than anything I do. Regardless of how happy you become, for the simple reason that my happiness is mine and yours will never be mine.

[Vin]

Brujo, I don't know if I am understanding correctly but it seems to me that you are basically saying that ny style dancers take themselves too seriously. Am I correct?
If this is what you are saying then in no matter what kind of dancing you are talking about there will be dancers that take themselves and there dancing too seriously. In fact, among women(who I dance with more frequently than men) I have found more that dance the cumbia style or Rueda style that take it too seriously and they are usually not as willing to improvise as those that dance in the slot.
I took two beginner classes last year, one from a NY style dancer and one from a rueda style dancer. I would definitely say the Rueda style teacher was a better dancer but the NY Style class was thouroughly more enjoyable. Why, because in the NY style class he wasn't trying to make us into professional dancers, he just wanted to make sure we could go to a party and enjoy ourselves. The Rueda style teacher made it almost ballroom like with strict instruction on how each part of our body should move to which rhythm in the music, she was trying to make clones of us.
I am not saying NY Style is better than any other style, some people simply prefer it maybe due to a bad instructor experience.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

But when salseras tell me laugh and say, 'cool, simple salsa' when I don't do double spins during slow songs, it breaks my heart.


Yeh, Brujo I know exactly what you mean! I used to feel embarrassed when this happened to me so I would start leading double and triple spins to make her happy. It would however break my heart because I was dancing for "her" and not for the spectators. I guess she enjoys being in the spotlight...

One time, this made me so angry that I intentionly lead extremely fast and complicated patterns non-stop till the end of the song. I´m talking about 5 spins, CBL with double inside turn, another 5 spins (you get the picture). At the end, I asked her, "How was that?" She looked at me completely red, still dizzy from my imposed torture, and said nothing...

I don´t usually do this, but for some reason that day I felt like it. I think it was a good learning experience for her. 8)

[Sagitta]

But when salseras tell me laugh and say, 'cool, simple salsa' when I don't do double spins during slow songs, it breaks my heart.


Yeh, Brujo I know exactly what you mean! I used to feel embarrassed when this happened to me so I would start leading double and triple spins to make her happy. It would however break my heart because I was dancing for "her" and not for the spectators. I guess she enjoys being in the spotlight...


Dancing is a partnership. If she likes double spins etc I will do some, but if I won't make that the whole dance!! If I don't feel that the music calls for it why should I spend the whole dance doing it? I have an alternative to what Mapleleaf said he has done. I've deliberately danced half a song without a move, just doing the basic, or even better, just dance doing leader-only moves: leader turns, spins, left turn, right turn... Imagine the frustration taking it to the other extreme? Having said all this I don't believe that I have practiced this!! As a beginner, perhaps I couldn't do much! As an intermediate beginner I've done a bit to play with people whom I know, but that's about it. :)

[peachexploration]

But when salseras tell me laugh and say, 'cool, simple salsa' when I don't do double spins during slow songs, it breaks my heart.
.......One time, this made me so angry that I intentionly lead extremely fast and complicated patterns non-stop till the end of the song. I´m talking about 5 spins, CBL with double inside turn, another 5 spins (you get the picture). At the end, I asked her, "How was that?" She looked at me completely red, still dizzy from my imposed torture, and said nothing...

I don´t usually do this, but for some reason that day I felt like it. I think it was a good learning experience for her. 8)

And, an experience she deserved. I hate when people think dancing is a time for insults. Serves her right. Bet she'll think twice before doing that again. :lol:

[dragon3085]

A better question is why do so many people care what other style people dance. Dancing should be fun and if you enjoy dancing on the 1 dance on the one, if you like dancing on 2 dance on 2. But don't knock other people because they don't dance like you. I have witnessed first hand dancer segregate based on who danced on what, and I'm thinking to myself that there has to be more pressing matters in the world to care about than what beat someone I'm not even dancing with is on. Why does it matter? If your dancing on 2 and I'm on 1 right next to you nobody is gonna die- the sun will still rise. All that really should matter is that us and our respective partners are having fun.

Pat

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

And, an experience she deserved. I hate when people think dancing is a time for insults. Serves her right. Bet she'll think twice before doing that again. :lol:

Peachexploration, thanks for the support. I don´t usually do this but at the time I felt I had to. She wasn´t understanding my dialect. She was robbing me of what I most like in dancing...

[peachexploration]

A better question is why do so many people care what other style people dance. Dancing should be fun and if you enjoy dancing on the 1 dance on the one, if you like dancing on 2 dance on 2. But don't knock other people because they don't dance like you. I have witnessed first hand dancer segregate based on who danced on what, and I'm thinking to myself that there has to be more pressing matters in the world to care about than what beat someone I'm not even dancing with is on. Why does it matter? If your dancing on 2 and I'm on 1 right next to you nobody is gonna die- the sun will still rise. All that really should matter is that us and our respective partners are having fun.

Pat

....why do some prefer NY City style? Have you been to NY City? Why do you think the article describes the average NY City dancer going any where in the world and being one of the best upon arrival? Just like it takes years of practice to do ballroom, is the same with Mambo style dance. Why do some like driving a 100 miles an hour? The same reason some drive the same vehicle at 50 Mph. Preference..

I couldn't have said it any better. :D

[dragon3085]

Of course having said that, knowing how to dance on 2 and other ways only increase the number of potential partners. ITs not real usefull here in San Antonio because we all tend to dance on one, but when I was in Charolette folks dance mainly on 2 since I know both, I was able to adapt fairly easy. Also some music, like Spanish Harlem Orchestra's makes you want to move on the two.

Pat

[peachexploration]

..... Also some music, like Spanish Harlem Orchestra's makes you want to move on the two.

Pat

That's very true. I think Boriken also eluded to that at some point in another thread. (Boriken, correct me if wrong. :oops: ) But you're right. It's about the music speaking to you. There's a line in a movie that goes something like ...."it's the music, the music tells me how to dance..." Anyway, welcome to DF, Pat. Nice to have you here! :D

[SDsalsaguy]

There's a line in a movie that goes something like ...."it's the music, the music tells me how to dance..."
Said by Chayanne's character in Dance with Me

[borikensalsero]

..... Also some music, like Spanish Harlem Orchestra's makes you want to move on the two.

Pat

That's very true. I think Boriken also eluded to that at some point in another thread. (Boriken, correct me if wrong. :oops: ) But you're right. It's about the music speaking to you. There's a line in a movie that goes something like ...."it's the music, the music tells me how to dance..." Anyway, welcome to DF, Pat. Nice to have you here! :D

Very true, very very true.... It is about what the music tells us to do... :banana:

[salsarhythms]

Hey Dragon...Welcome to the forums!!

I agree with you on the whole style vs. style thing...there's just
no excuse for it.

On the other hand, learning different styles allows you to expand
on your potential partners...however, if it stops being fun, then it's
not worth it.

I don't think that the people who perpetuate this whole "this style
is better than that style" realize that this just turns people away.

If I was just coming in to salsa dancing and I would see this non-sense
I'd never want to be a part of it...

[youngsta]

A better question is why do so many people care what other style people dance. Dancing should be fun and if you enjoy dancing on the 1 dance on the one, if you like dancing on 2 dance on 2. But don't knock other people because they don't dance like you. I have witnessed first hand dancer segregate based on who danced on what, and I'm thinking to myself that there has to be more pressing matters in the world to care about than what beat someone I'm not even dancing with is on. Why does it matter? If your dancing on 2 and I'm on 1 right next to you nobody is gonna die- the sun will still rise. All that really should matter is that us and our respective partners are having fun.

Pat
Thank You, Thank You, THANK YOU Pat! That's exactly what I said at the very beginning of this thread.

[Sagitta]

Ditto!!

[salsachinita]

I definitely agree with Dragon. This segragation via style/timing thing is not healthy for the salsa scene. It's happening everywhere, I believe :x !

Maybe you can hope to show them what you see, not fight against what they see..

This is what I'm doing at the moment. Very busy sharing ideas with everybody :wink: !

[brujo]

Let me try this one again. But it's going to be a long post. I'm not talking about the distinction between dancing on1 and dancing on2. Or even the distinction between dancing in a slot or roaming around. I am talking about the fundamental view of dancing.

I've always thought that dancing was something that you learned. Someone somewhere showed you a couple of steps, and then you repeated those steps until they were perfect. Get more steps. Rinse. Repeat.

But lately, I'm not so sure about this anymore. At first, I thought the difference was in the approach to salsa between Cubans and Americans, but I've been looking at some of the latino dancers in my area and the product of some of the Casino schools, and I've been seeing the same pattern repetition.

So what is missing? Why do we dance?

I'm reading a book about tao, and it talks about the difference between confucianism and taoism. Confucianism is very strict, very authoritative, very rigid in it's thoughts, while tao is like flowing water, very laid back and relaxed in it's viewpoints.

I find that the perception of dancing in North America seems to be a lot like confucianism. There is too much emphasis on the how and not enough emphasis on the why. There is a right way to do many things. In order to become great in dancing, you need to follow the patterns that your teachers gave you, practice enough and you can go learn to salsa with Edie the Salsa Freak, where you'll be endowed with astonishing skill, musicality and incredible moves. Technique, timing, dancing to the beat. Identify the instruments. It's all so technical, so broken down, so focused.

Boriken says that the American style of salsa fits well with fast music. Look into the curriculum of a lot of dance schools, and you'll see that an advanced dancer is defined by their ability to asyncopate and dance to faster music. It seems that in the LA and NY style of salsa, dancing to fast music is the goal. They are also praised for their ability to make up patterns, to make things different and interesting to the spectator.

People often tell me that in Cuba, people dance all day. They spend their entire lives listening to music and moving their bodies to it. They are obviously not partner dancing, but they are having a relationship with the music, letting the music inspire them and expressing it with their bodies. This is perhaps most evident in Puerto Rican Plena, where there is an interaction between the dancer and the drummer.

Salsachinita says that when you ask a latino to dance, and do it for more than 2 songs, they might interpret it as a come on. But I think our whole notion of dancing is out of whack. Think about bars in the United States. What do people go do at bars? They try to get laid. They go have fun. They socialize. It is one of the few socially acceptable place in North American society to talk to a complete stranger without being considered a nutjob. When you see the latin people in the bars, they are doing exactly that. Of course they'll get the wrong idea, it is a bar, after all.

I often hear that people claim that latin dancers have more passion, more spirit when they dance. That the movements come naturally to them. When I look at the NY / LA dancers around me, I see that many of them are practicing for the really fast, spectacular descargas, and they miss the joy of dancing to the slow songs. To the songs where speed is not really that much of an issue, where the connection with your partner, not the best fancy spins money can buy are what matters. Maybe Boriken is right, The Spanish Harlem Orchestra is going to make you want to learn to dance fast, on two, whatever. I look at my dance heroes, and they are not people that look incredible on the dancefloor, they are the people that really trully connect with each other. They are the little Colombian couple in the corner getting lost in each other's eyes during a cumbia. It is the Dominican couple dancing bachata like they don't care, that nobody is watching them. It's not in the blood, it's a different perspective. In this light, Merengue is not annoying or simple. Neither is bachata. Neither is cumbia.

And ultimately, that is the difference. To the people that dance every moment of the day, they are just moving to the music. In a bar, they are still moving to the music. There are no patterns, no timing, it is just music that makes you want to move. Think the hip hop dancers on the streets, not the tango dancers in the dance halls after years of serious practice.

[salsachinita]

they miss the joy of dancing to the slow songs. To the songs where speed is not really that much of an issue, where the connection with your partner, not the best fancy spins money can buy are what matters. .

I am with you 200% on this one, Brujo. I've noticed the number of flashy dancers sitting down as soon as the DJ plays something slower (not Bolero slow!) & sensual. I've always been able to make pretty good assessments on how well my dancing 'clicks' with someone by dancing one of these numbers with them :wink: . Sometimes I invite newbies to try one of these songs with me......it breaks the patterns/moulds they've worked themselves into during classes & REALLY makes them focus on FEELING the music & partner 8) .

I'm reading a book about tao, and it talks about the difference between confucianism and taoism. Confucianism is very strict, very authoritative, very rigid in it's thoughts, while tao is like flowing water, very laid back and relaxed in it's viewpoints.

Tao is always my preferred philosophy, as opposed to Confucianism. Salsa dancing should be as such: flowing water, able to take the shape of any vessel that contains it. Therefore both you and Boriken are right in believing in your own preferences. I have mine too, so do everyone here.

As a female follower, I know no lead; nor is it my role to lead. The more I dance with different people (no matter what style/timing/level) the more I learn. I submit myself as a 'blank' in the presence of a lead. I am water, I will assume the shapes of vessels that contains me.

I realized that the more I learn, the less I 'know' :shock: , and the more 'empty' or 'blank' I've become. This is making me a better follower, a little bit everyday.

So what is missing? Why do we dance?.

:? I have been wondering about this too. Why do you dance Brujo?
Could it be a separate thread to ask everyone in th DF?

[dragon3085]

So what is missing? Why do we dance?

IF your asking the question then you need to read more books on taosim. :twisted:
If your asking why then your missing the point somewhat. I dance simply because I feel like dancing, when I dont' feel like dancing I don't. :wink:

And just in case you take this wrong I mean this in a sincere but humorous tone.

[youngsta]

Funny you would bring up Taoism since I've followed the philosophy for years, but that's neither here nor there.

Again I will state there are people with that fundamental view of dance everywhere. I have friends born and raised in NY who have never taken formal lessons. Who've danced since they were young just for the sheer joy of it. Same thing with friends in LA, Puerto Rico, Spain, Costa Rica. What you speak of is a characteristic of each specific dancer. Doesn't matter what modification of mambo, cha cha cha, bachata, merengue, they dance. Maybe where you live you see the dominance of people only conerned with patterns and form. When I go out I see an equal amount of what you're talking about. I don't think anything is missing; and since I dance for the pure love and enjoyment of it I tend not to worry about others dance ideology much. I guess I'm to wrapped up in my partner's and my gratification.

[brujo]

Funny you would bring up Taoism since I've followed the philosophy for years, but that's neither here nor there.

Again I will state there are people with that fundamental view of dance everywhere. I have friends born and raised in NY who have never taken formal lessons. Who've danced since they were young just for the sheer joy of it. Same thing with friends in LA, Puerto Rico, Spain, Costa Rica. What you speak of is a characteristic of each specific dancer. Doesn't matter what modification of mambo, cha cha cha, bachata, merengue, they dance. Maybe where you live you see the dominance of people only conerned with patterns and form. When I go out I see an equal amount of what you're talking about. I don't think anything is missing; and since I dance for the pure love and enjoyment of it I tend not to worry about others dance ideology much.

I will reiterate my point. It is not the New York dancers I am against. It is the philosophy that I see as an export of the New York attitude and that geneology of salsa and mambo moves. I'll be honest, the style has a lot of great strengths, but the philosophy is not taught. Many people thrive for dancing at amazing speeds and miss out on the joy of dancing slow songs. They get involved with patterns and more patterns. I respect Edie the salsa freak because she has been advocating dancing to the music more and more. But from my own scene, there are many people that think that leading roughly, flashy dancing is dancing. They miss out on the joy of non-cookie cutter dancing. Go to a studio, you are taught to follow the music, on the technique, on the patterns, but never on how and why you dance. It is assumed that you already know some of this when you seek out the studio, but how often do people go to studios to meet people, to connect, to get over their own shyness?

I guess I'm to wrapped up in my partner's and my gratification.
You selfish bastard :D

[capricorndancer]

Fabulous people. I had to laugh about the current end of the thread. Maybe it's just the archetypal "New York Attitude" with which many have a problem: does Confuscianism equate to hard-assed anal-retentiveness, or is it just me?

As for this style vs that style . . . and why people prefer any dance style, or why they dance at all . . . if we try to boil it down to simplest terms, with the danger of losing some of the essence (probably the more volatile aspects of it ;-) ), then given that . . . Doesn't everyone dance because of the way it makes them feel, however that may be?

So, if you get a kickout of the NY style, b/c you look hot, get more dance (enjoyable/better) partners, or just love a challenge/sense of achievement (hello type-A personalities), go for it. Oddly, I learned the foot pattern of the NY style, but breaking on 1/3, in Melbourne, about 7 years ago. Couldn't understand the excitement of the NY style for a long time, as it looked at face value like what I'd been doing, except on2 . . .

Now, really FAST Salsa, with a lot of percussion, tends to feel better on2 to me, though I am nowhere near as proficient with that beat . . . conversely, looking at people dancing on2 for a 1/3 Salsa looks weird to me, like they aren't actually dancing on a beat that exists in the music, but maybe they can hear it b/c their ears are sensitised to that aspect of the music (subjectivity rules, OK?).

Finally, on making a distinction b/w styles: I think it's only important insofar as one wants to follow a particular style. Mine is mostly Cuban, I think, but that's just incidental. I like dancing with my partner, and the worst dances are those with someone who looks like they can dance really well, but with whom one simply can't make a connection, stylistically speaking. Total waste of time for both parties. Difficult to know who wasn't trying hard enough, but move on to the next partner anyway.

Consider this, too: philsosphically, what defines interesting? (which is an unavoidable element of fun, for many people). My thought is that "interesting" is something that is similar to what you already know, but not the same (=boring/uninformative), nor is it SO different that you can't understand it at all: you can put it in a context. In partnered dance forms, this means being able to dance WITH someone, TO the music. Different styles of dance allow the interpretation of different music in different ways.

And it's all good, as long as the most people possible are enjoying it - participators and spectators, both!!

thanks for the ride

CD

[MacMoto]

As a female follower, I know no lead; nor is it my role to lead. The more I dance with different people (no matter what style/timing/level) the more I learn. I submit myself as a 'blank' in the presence of a lead. I am water, I will assume the shapes of vessels that contains me.

I realized that the more I learn, the less I 'know' :shock: , and the more 'empty' or 'blank' I've become. This is making me a better follower, a little bit everyday.

Beautifully put, salsachinita, and sooooo true.
I think I'll print this out and put it up on a wall so I can remind myself every time I go out.
:notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

I think we followers are lucky; the "which style is better?" question is irrelvant to us really since all we have to do is dance whatever the leader leads. I like the fact that every time I dance with someone for the first time it is a discovery, a new learning experience, no matter which style he dances. I have my preferences, yes, but they tend to be along the lines of "I like the way this particular man leads" and "I like the way he responds to the music" rather than "I like NY/LA/Cuban/whatever". I actually like going to places where I can expect a good mix of dancers with different styles, in spite of the inevitable slot vs. circular traffic management problem.

[SDsalsaguy]

Great points capricorndancer, thanks for sharing! :D

(Oh yeah... and welcome to the Forums too! :D)

[borikensalsero]

Wow, we are finally getting at something here. I absolutely love it.

I dance so I can give my soul an escape from a day-to-day prison called body, let it manifest itself as it wishes, hence, expand my bodies capability for feeling truly free in a world where freedom is dependant on how you behave according to someone else's views.

As brujo mentions dancing has been “lost in translation”. We have succeeded to teach people how to step but failed as teachers. Why be a flawless person in the physical world limited by that which is translated by our brain when we can step further and tap into what SG describes as Salsa Nirvana?

We have stopped feeling for the sake of a satisfied ego being fed advanced patterns so it can claim depth and knowledge while we snorkel and claim we have seen the depths of Mariana’s Trench.

But for what its worth, there is no difference between someone enjoying a fast song using any structured style and someone enjoying a fast song without any regard for structure, all there really is a difference in means. The very word says it all, enjoyment. So while lots of people enjoy salsa, they’ve yet to break through Confucianism, and turned a flawless dancer into an enlightened dancer. I can’t fail to mention that while humanity seeks for something greater in life following the paths others have traveled, we’ve failed to see that Buddha, Mohammad, and Jesus all took different paths yet touched upon something most of humanity hasn’t yet enjoying and living in the same world. If we think that following others’ dancing we will reach the necessary skill level to be that flawless dancer we will only see Confucianism, yet mistake it with Taoism because our dancing flows like water.

Dancing is beyond the realms of grooving, advanced patterns, and beautiful smiles. It incorporates all in way to all becoming one. It is a world where the body, mind, and heart stop feeling and become the feeling itself. It is a world of salsa very few have ever known. It is the mystique that separates the sum of the parts from the whole, and enjoyment from nirvana.

[capricorndancer]

Boriken,
Interesting viewpoint. I've been dancing (formally) since 1992, when I started Ballroom. Miss Waltzing terribly, but now I'm home, that should get rectified soon. Anyway, Since I started dancing in Perth, far from home and friends, effectively working as a lab technician, I have found that dancing for me has been more of a release from the aggravations of my work/study. Sure, it allows me to express aspects of myself such as you list, and creativity, but while I can get pretty high on adrenaline and related hormones, I don't think of it as a path to Nirvana. I suspect that my attitude is closer to Brujo's in this regard.
I have some little experience with meditation as a route to enlightenment. In the school of thought I was taught, the traveller attempts to quieten their mind in order that buried, disruptive thoughts may emerge, be observed, but not to which one does not respond or become part, anabling one to ACT, instead of REact, when similar events happen at a later date . . . In this way, the control such memories have over us, often unobserved, is weakened. Freud would have called it developing the super-ego, I expect: from this place of consciousness we observe the ego as it deals with the angst of the sub-conscious/Id.
The habit of spiritual luminaries such as Jesus and Moses, etc, to spend time in physically deprived circumstances that facillitate altered states of mind is well known, and no doubt a big part of how they reached their states of Nirvana. Even one of the more recent Buddhas was reputed to have sat under a lotus tree, vowing to fast until he had determined what prevents people from being happy. (Until the lotus dropped its blossums for him to eat, metaphorically, or so I remember the story going: his answer was "cravings and aversions"). I regularly get hammered to impossible sugar lows by dancing, so I can relate to Nirvana at that level, at least :wink:
This is not to say that your approach is invalid; hell, if it works, more power to you. Looking at my experience of living in the US (the last 4 years), where consumerism is their substitute for enlightenment, and distraction from spiritual starvation part of the weekly rountine, I conclude that at the very least, dancing is a healthier way of escaping from the trials of the mundane world. It's also intersting to note that, like poets, the more tortured a soul becomes, the more driven to seek escape, either by dealing with demons within, or by running from them at highest speed. Funny how "fight or flight" are still our primary methods for dealing with stress, innit?

Catch you on the flip side

CD

[borikensalsero]

Great post capricondancer!!! Truly enjoyed reading it.
The reason I say salsa nirvana is because I have been there. I have been there multiple times. Being there is the exact same feeling I get when I meditate. I become everything yet still in physical self. I feel my partner, I feel my surroundings, I feel the crowd, I feel the music, I feel the music waves going through my ears and uplifting my soul right out of my body and rising above everything. My body looses all sensation of weight, time, and space, yet even when I sense it all, I am at peace, and everything becomes me, the same loudness of the music gives me silence. I even feel the heart beat of my dance partner, her pulsations through my fingertips. If I open my eyes I see nothing yet I see everyone around me and feel the part of me. My steps don’t feel like steps, nor I feel my body move but I know it’s moving. I truly step into a world of salsa very few have been. Hence, the similarity to Nirvana while dancing salsa that I speak of.

I don’t believe neither in good nor bad, there just is. Any thoughts associated with my unconscious are just thoughts. Not evil to me, nor anyone, they are thoughts just like the “good” ones. However, when I’m dancing, the war-like feeling of a person trying to mediate is finally won with silence, the silence that is itself the noise going on around me at whatever time I’m dancing When I reach that given point, in a given dance, no thoughts through my head, I skip the meditation process and go right into feeling at peace. There is no thought filled battle to wage with my ego/id/super ego, there just is SELF. Why? Because they are all me, the divisions we create are nothing but an attempt to create and give rational meaning to a physical world that is absent in the metaphysical, an attempt to differentiate everything from everything, when in fact, the self is everything and everything part of one-self.

I used to dance for the physical feeling, but once I noticed that my body took on the same properties as when meditating I stopped all brain communication with the world around me and began to experience what it was like to really allow the soul to dance. I began to just feel, once I left the mind and began to feel, there weren’t any images associated with it, just a feeling of agapeo, a feeling of total love. There was no feeling of being tired, aching feet, aching muscles, there was just an immense sense of awareness, which at times caused physical pain when coming down from it. I believe since I don’t have a dualistic view of the world, it became a lot easier to allow everything to BE. I’m not saying that I use dancing to become enlightened, because I’m not, nor really care to be. All I am using it is to experience those things that the use of a body and brain can’t comprehend, but are all very familiar to the soul.

I don’t see disruptive thoughts, yes, I will label them as such for others to understand the impact of my words, but as far as equating them to disruptive, I can not, for I don’t see the line that draws bad and good, high low, flee or fight. For there has to be evil in order to see good, to me they just are. I take things as they come and learn from them, I don’t place them in the good basket and bad basket, I do however, place it in a basket and say this is the me that everyone sees and the me my body and mind want the self to be.

If a person doesn’t believe in physical deprivation, could he claim it so? For it isn’t what others see but what the self sees. To he who the body isn’t the self, physical deprivation can never be labeled such. Pain to it, is no more than joy to it, again the difference being what the mind labels it as. What some consider deprivation can very well be a lifestyle that only brings more joy to others, and why there is degrees of good and evil to the mind. Not talking of a delirous state...

. Funny how "fight or flight" are still our primary methods for dealing with stress, innit?
Can there be fight or flight if they are both the same? I don’t see a difference actively seeking spiritual awareness and lavishly dismissing it. All I see is 2 different paths. He who fights does the same as he who flees, for what they really think is that the disappearance of the body from the realms of the physical is true death, which to me, is just a step along the way. It is an inaccuracy to measure the sum of a person upon ones thinking and not their own.

God, now I must really seem crazy, and how in the world did this get into a salsa forum… Hmmmm You guys might wanna call the shrink and tell him that I am in dire need of help.

BTW... if anyone was offended by this post, please accept my deepest apologies.

[capricorndancer]

. . . would be yours, Boriken; I've never got that deep into the experience of life, or dancing. Too much thinking, I expect, and not enough being. I think your experiences also put into context a lot of your exchange with Brujo.

Oh, and the sirens you can hear? Those would be the men with the nice white jacket with the long, lace-up at the back arms. :wink: No offense meant or taken. I think that I would most like to see you dance. That could be inspirational. :)

Later

CD

[borikensalsero]

Oh, and the sirens you can hear? Those would be the men with the nice white jacket with the long, lace-up at the back arms. :wink:
Should I run the other way, or sit back and say thank you to those nice gentlemen who are so willing to help :lol:

Who knows maybe the inspiration of seeing me in the "moment" might gift you with a seat right next to me and those nice gentlemen. :wink: I'll need someone to talk about dance. :D

[Pacion]

As a female follower, I know no lead; nor is it my role to lead. The more I dance with different people (no matter what style/timing/level) the more I learn. I submit myself as a 'blank' in the presence of a lead. I am water, I will assume the shapes of vessels that contains me.

I realized that the more I learn, the less I 'know' :shock: , and the more 'empty' or 'blank' I've become. This is making me a better follower, a little bit everyday.

Beautifully put, salsachinita, and sooooo true.
I think I'll print this out and put it up on a wall so I can remind myself every time I go out.
:notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Ditto! :lol:

There's a line in a movie that goes something like ...."it's the music, the music tells me how to dance..."
Said by Chayanne's character in Dance with Me

SD :roll: how do you happen to know this piece of movie trivia :wink:

I agree with what Chayanne's character is saying by the way :wink: :banana: :D

Brujo and Boriken, some interesting stuff here. All I can say is "Wow" and I will have to print this out and read it over a loooonnnnngggg cappachino :wink: :D

[Sagitta]

No. Just go out and dance. :wink: :)

[cocodrilo]

Confucious thought that women were subservient creatures and shouldn't be trusted. :evil:

[capricorndancer]

Confucious thought that women were subservient creatures and shouldn't be trusted. :evil:

Wouldn't the first proposition lead logically to the second? Are servants to be trusted? Are creatures to be trusted? Are followers substantially different from servants, or other than servile? Is this the right place to be discussing a woman's place? In our or Confucious' era? Do followers serve leaders or the reverse, or neither; could it not simply be a continuous dialogue, or, as Boriken might put it, simply a state of being one?

hmmm. Too long away from suger, me.

CD

[Sabor]

:shock: holy smokes!.. i just took a look at the size of the posts here and that its 5 pages and i got a headache :lol: ..

tell u what.. bottom line is..

if u aint doin this... http://www.lionking.org/images/animated/hula!!!.gif ... u aint getting my attention :wink: :lol:

[Lucretia]

Hi,

I like many posts in this thread. They give me a lot to think of.

But, the big BUT is that I have never ever seen anyone dance on-2. Do anyone of you have an example, a short videocut? (No broadband yet....it will come next week).

I've really tried hard to understand when and how to break and step...but the discriptions doesn't make any sence


What is NY City style? It is only the stepping of 1,2,3 5,6,7, but breaking on 2, nothing else.

How can you both step and break at 2?

Yesterday I believed I did my first on-2 steps. It just happened…just like that. The music directed me. And since I was not connected to any partner - I was all alone in the house - I was able to hang on. It was a funny feeling when I found out my body changed the steps.

But after reading this thread I’m unsure about what it was. Perhaps my very own on-2 ?

/Lucretia

[Sabor]

hi Lucretia..

i dont know if u can view it or not but www.mamboston2.com has a decent amount of short clips and u should definitely see on2 danceing there in the video gallery where there are NY Congress clips at least..

now, i didn't get the chance to see many clips on there yet, but i assume you'll find there are alot of shines and solo action in the dancing.. which might still confuse u .. but conentrate on the parts where the dancers get together and partner dance which would give u a better feel for how it looks..

i also think most of it will be Eddie Torres on2 .. that is 123 567 with the lead starting with his left on 1 (as in on1 salsa) BUT breaking back with right while follower goes forward with left on2 after also stepping on1 with her right (again as in on1 salsa)... and the opposite direction of that on the 6 of course..

the other on2 - power 2 - is not the same because here the lead passes the 1 and 5 completely .. like the on1 salser@ passes the 4 and 8 and steps forward w/ left straight on the 2 (follower steps back w/ right) and breaks back w/ right on 6 (follower steps forward w/ left) on 234 678..

can u picture the difference a little better? but thats not important for now.. as u can choose whatever feel natural for u later, but, generally, for an on 1 salser@ it'll feel like u are lagging a little behind the beat .. as if u are holding back a little in time.. yet.. as u get used to it.. it'll feel natural well enough..

also it helps if u can here the different instruments playing in the music.. maybe thats why u sometimes feel u are on2 naturally .. because u hear an instrument more dominantly than the rest.. like the conga for example.. some songs will be felt on 2 without thinking because of how the music is structured and what instrument dominates the rythm more..

well, my 2 cents anyway..

[MacMoto]

How can you both step and break at 2?
The word "break" in this sense means (I think) taking a step away from -- i.e., breaking out of -- your home position, not pausing (I thought I'd say this just in case that's where your confusion comes from -- English is such a confusing language).

There is a page on Edie's site that has charts showing different break patterns, including on1, Power2 and Eddie Torres on2.
http://www.dancefreak.com/steps.htm

As Sabor says, www.mamboston2.com is a good source of on2 video clips.

now, i didn't get the chance to see many clips on there yet, but i assume you'll find there are alot of shines and solo action in the dancing.. which might still confuse u .. but conentrate on the parts where the dancers get together and partner dance which would give u a better feel for how it looks..
What I tend to notice first when I realise a couple is dancing on2 is the timing of the crossbody lead, probably because it's such a visible move. In on2 dancing, the follower's walk along the slot happens on the 2 beat rather than the 5.

[Lucretia]

Sabor and McMoto,

Yes I DID believe "break" meant taking a short pause.
Confusing ...really.... :?

I will view the videcuts you sent me, THANKS!

/lucretia

[capricorndancer]

Glad that your questions have been answered, Lucretia. I have one more thing to add: from a perspective of pattern, the major difference between the so-called on1 and on2 is where the pause comes in the pattern of steps.
I say "so-called" because I was taught to break forwards on 1 (or 3), but to delay the third step: I step 1,2,..,4. I was mystified by the excitment on2 caused in Detroit when it arrived with the first congress there; I already had all the time that the Eddie Torres on2 provides, for styling and turns, etc.
Thus, what I learned was the inverse of "power 2", as Sabor described it. It's all fairly moot anyway; from other discussions, it appears that musicians sometimes swap between rhumba and son clave rhythms, and in any case, many Salsa tracks don't have a consistent 2 beat to dance on . . . so, dance where you feel the rhythm, and try to make sure your follow, follows! That's the main point of it all, isn't it? Communication and coordination (oh, and reaching Nirvana, of course :wink: . . . )

Ciao

CD

[Lucretia]

Capricorndancer, MacMoto and Sabor,

I understand now. I used Eddies pictures and figured it out. In theory ...
Next week - when my broadband modem arrives and everything i settled for me to get full speed - I'll download the clips. I'm looking forward to it.

I guess it well fell more natural after a few hours of practice. And a leader. A good leader seems to solve every problem for me right now.

I have to confess myself to your idea Capricorndancer, "to Communication and coordination (oh, and reaching Nirvana, of course . . . ) "


/Lucretia



ps.

Yesterday I did on-2, but the cuban style. If anyone care to know. (giggling a lot)

[rails]

A good leader seems to solve every problem for me right now.

I'd be careful though. Good leaders often compensate for poor following. It "solves" the short-term problem of that dance, but in the long-run it can distort the follower's learning if she's not aware of what's going on.

Not that I'm saying that's what's going on with you. I'm sure you're a fabulous follower.

[capricorndancer]

I'd be careful though. Good leaders often compensate for poor following. It "solves" the short-term problem of that dance, but in the long-run it can distort the follower's learning if she's not aware of what's going on.


Yeah, ditto to that; in days gone by, I was a very strong lead. A favourite of mine used to dance very well with me, or so I thought, then. She went and got married, and her husband wasn't nearly so confident about leading. Her dancing improved immensely over the following year, dancing mostly with him, I think because she had to learn to manage her own movements. Now, on the occasions we've danced, it's pretty amazing.

CD

[Lucretia]

Capricorndancer & Rails, you are perfectly right!

But in my learning curve I’m at the phase where I have to learn how to follow. The steps and my style is OK but I have problem to “trust” my own resources as a dancer AND the leader. I would like to trust both parts to perform well.

(Right now I have problem to trust everyone including myself…but that has not to do with dancing. :cry: Salsa is a kind of therapy. :) )

I guess the best thing now for me is to dance with good leaders OR my salsaclassmates who are evolving their leader capabilities and have the same pattern as me in their repertoire. One of these two things has to be fulfilled – either a good leader OR patterns in common – for me to feel comfortable at the dancefloor. Then after this “self confidence building phase” I will try all kinds of leaders.

(I cannot manage strangers and absolutley not leaders that are on the dancefloor to impress or to do their "ordinary programmed routine" despite me telling them that I don't do doublespins. :evil: :twisted: )

I believe I have capabilities to become a real good “dancer” and I will work hard on becoming a real good follower. But that part is much harder to measure.

However I was really glad to see that my body changed to another “on” salsa just because of the music. But I will not confuse myself with dancing on-2 or power2 other than solo.

And I'm happy to understand what you are talking about when you talk on-X

/Lucretia

[capricorndancer]

Right now I have problem to trust everyone including myself…but that has not to do with dancing. :cry: Salsa is a kind of therapy. :)


But WAY more fun than conventional therapy, isn't it? You correct on all counts, though: one needs confidence to dance well, and much more to dance well with unfamiliar people. The friend I mentioned was always self-confident, and by the time she was getting married, was a confident dancer, too. Being appreciated and enjoyed makes for a lot of confidence, so your classmates are as good as any for that purpose. Even though I've been dancing for years now, I almost NEVER repeat a dance with someone who didn't enjoy dancing with me . . . and if I do, it's more because I know the person as more than just a dancer.


I cannot manage strangers and absolutley not leaders that are on the dancefloor to impress or to do their "ordinary programmed routine" despite me telling them that I don't do doublespins.


You'll find your way to double spins in your own time, I'm sure, and to impressing people, whether you intend it or not :wink:

CD

[SDsalsaguy]

There's a line in a movie that goes something like ...."it's the music, the music tells me how to dance..."
Said by Chayanne's character in Dance with Me

SD :roll: how do you happen to know this piece of movie trivia :wink:

Well... it is dance related, isn't it? :wink:

[mambochino]

Here is an article related to the history of Mambo (suggested by a pro who was in the NYC dance scenes back in the days.)

http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/mambo.htm