Ocho technique

[jfm]

Hiya, another question this time for the followers:
When I practice Ochos should I be holding on to something? I've been placing two fingers on a kitchen unit to minimise any "pushing off" or over balancing, but I'm not sure how good that is. I also try to do them free standing with my arms open, but it feels much harder to pivot. I always collect first then pivot with my ankles glued, is this right? What can I do to improve this? Primarily I've been doing this to build up the muscles for my balance and I think it works quite well - especially in my 3.5" heels. Are there any better techniques/drills I could use to perfect my balance?
Any tips thankfully recieved!
Cheers!

[bastet]

I've used tops of chairs to practice before, counter-tops all with heights similar to a ballet barre. I've never beena fan of using a wall except as a last case option becasue it is too easy, as you say, to use the wall to "push". I think doing them free standing is also very good becasue then you learn to completely rely on your own balance, not your partner, to accomplish them.

I try to think of collecting my knees, since those are over my ankles.

[Me]

I think practicing ochos is one of the best ways to improve your tango, period. Practicing them without any assistance is best too. It can be slow hard work but eventually you will build the strength and find the balance to execute even the slowest ocho with grace and control, and you will feel so proud when you get there!

Collect first and then pivot is absolutely correct. :) Just be sure that, when you ocho, your weight is completely on the supporting foot - no weight at all on the collecting foot. Also, try to keep your weight over the ball of the rotating foot and not so much on the heel.

I think the one habit that can develop from practicing ochos by yourself is the tendency to turn the body as a whole. As you advance in your ocho practice, try to be aware of the separation of your lower body from your upper. When you ocho with a partner, you will be trying to face him at all times (maintaining your tango embrace or circle). I guess I am saying, try to face your torso as much front as possible while rotating from the waist down while you practice on your own. Otherwise, you may build the habit of rolling out of your partners' embrace.

P.S. If you are new to tango, I would say lose the high heels until you have built your strength. Otherwise it's a bit like a ballet dancer learning how to dance in pointe shoes.

[jfm]

All great tips!
So, I thought when you do ochos, the turning force is coming from the obliques, the twist being from the dissociation between the hips and ribs as the lower half catches up with the top half... umm not sure how well I am explaining how it feels... is this OK? Should I be using my core muscles to do the pivot or does it come from somewhere else? At the moment i try to keep my upper body parallel to a fixed point and make it so only my hips change direction is this good or bad? I've been doing a lesson and Milonga once a week for 2 years but spend a lot of time in between ochoing in the kitchen and doing giros around office swivel chairs. Not sure how popular I am at work, I'm sure they all think I'm bonkers!

[Novice]

My most preferred choice in practicing ochos was to stand in front of the fridge with two fingers on each side, such that if I used too much pressure or tried to "push" on the wrong side, the fridge would open. It also allowed me to put small impulses through my arms to communicate to the rest of my body how it's supposed to move, yet made me stay on my own balance as much as I needed to. Great practice for receiving those most subtle of signals from a lead. And yes, the core works well in this. Always use your core. It determines how responsive you can be, and how intense you and your partner can make your dance. Ocho practice is no exception.

[Dave Bailey]

All great tips!
So, I thought when you do ochos, the turning force is coming from the obliques, the twist being from the dissociation between the hips and ribs as the lower half catches up with the top half... umm not sure how well I am explaining how it feels... is this OK?
Sounds like a great explanation - at least, that's the way it's been explained to me also, most recently by Kicca Tomassi - powered by the lats and the dissociation.

I think you've got a firm grip on the concept :)

[jfm]

I had a bit of a think because despite all my practice, things to seem to fall apart a bit when I dance with a partner, I think the problem is that I'm being led to pivot before I can collect, I have tried collecting faster, but then I lose the music and it doesn't feel good, how can I make my partner give me a little more time? Is there a trick of the embrace to block the move until I've finished? It happens more often on backward ochos. I don't want to actually say something because it usually happens more at the milonga and it's a bit of a faux pas innit?

[bordertangoman]

1. If you feel your being led into the next step before you are ready, then resist. Each step should be invited by the leader.

2. An exercise to build up strength in the legs is to stand with feet hip width apart and pivot on both feet at the same time- like doing the twist or stubbing out a cigarette, move your wight over one leg then the other as you do so.

3. All the above is good advice.

[Me]

My most preferred choice in practicing ochos was to stand in front of the fridge with two fingers on each side, such that if I used too much pressure or tried to "push" on the wrong side, the fridge would open.

:uplaugh:

My only problem with that would be...

Me: Ocho... oops.
*door swings open*
Me: Oooooh, cold pizza! Yummy!
*takes out slice and walks away from fridge, happily munching*

[bastet]

LOL! That and then I would have several cats in direct attendance...could make it a good lesson in floorcraft and obstactle avoidance though... ;-P

[Steve Pastor]

I'm going to give you a "quick" suggestion. Take a smaller step when your foot goes behind your standing leg. Smaller step = less distance for your collecting foot to travel.
If the people you dance with stay with the music, they should be able to expect you to keep up with the music, don't you think?
If they don't.... All bets are off.
One problem I see is that most people practice and dance big ochos. So you expect to take a big step when you do an ocho, regardless.

You ask about a secret in the embrace. It goes all the way into the floor, actually. You resist movement, trying to stay connected to the floor. If your posture is good, and you hold your body "taut" (not slack), and you are connected to your partner by keeping your weight towards him, and your arms are also "taut", he will feel your resistence.
Sometime you could practice making yourself "heavy", then "light", but you'll need a partner. Maybe at a practica, if you have one to go to. (You could actually sneak just a tiny bit of this in at a milonga, me thinks.)

Come to think of it, just taking a smaller step behind in your ocho will make you feel "heavier".

Fair warning... Not all men want the woman to have this kind of presence in the dance. More's the pity.

[Gssh]

Another suggestions for "quick":

As far as i understand there are actually at least two different ochos. One of the extreme endpoints of the spectrum would be - step, collect, pivot, step collect where the "step" is a straight step in the direction the hip is pointing, the hip pivots completely into the direction of the next step, and the the next step is again a straight step. The other end point is for backwards ochos something close to "diagonal step crossing behind the standing leg", "diagonal step crossing behind the other leg". This second approach seems to be popular with people who like milonga because it is much quicker.

The lead for this kind of ocho might very well feel like "there is no time for collection before the pivot", because the lead is more alternating diagonal backwards impulses than pivots+steps.

GSSH

[Peaches]

:uplaugh:

My only problem with that would be...

Me: Ocho... oops.
*door swings open*
Me: Oooooh, cold pizza! Yummy!
*takes out slice and walks away from fridge, happily munching*LOL!!! You and me both!

[Peaches]

Another suggestions for "quick":

As far as i understand there are actually at least two different ochos. One of the extreme endpoints of the spectrum would be - step, collect, pivot, step collect where the "step" is a straight step in the direction the hip is pointing, the hip pivots completely into the direction of the next step, and the the next step is again a straight step. The other end point is for backwards ochos something close to "diagonal step crossing behind the standing leg", "diagonal step crossing behind the other leg". This second approach seems to be popular with people who like milonga because it is much quicker.

The lead for this kind of ocho might very well feel like "there is no time for collection before the pivot", because the lead is more alternating diagonal backwards impulses than pivots+steps.

GSSHYup. My teacher refers to those as "pivoting" ochos, and "non-pivoting"/"swinging"/"crossed"/"milonguero" ochos.

I'd add a third variation. If you're dancing milonga and are led in a series of very fast ochos, you'll tend to feel like you're almost split-weighted. There isn't a lot of time for the pretty collect and pivot thing. It still happesn, but it's so fast they almost feel like swivels. (To me, at least.)

[jfm]

Thanks this all so helpful! I shall try taking smaller steps- I think that's better for staying balanced no? I tend to only do "milonguero" style ochos when dancing in close embrace but I might try it in open as well and see what happens.

[Peaches]

Thanks this all so helpful! I shall try taking smaller steps- I think that's better for staying balanced no? I tend to only do "milonguero" style ochos when dancing in close embrace but I might try it in open as well and see what happens.The type of ocho you do should depend on the type of ocho that is led. Ditto on the size of the steps.

[jhpark]

yup

because of my teacher, i almost always lead the step/pivot ochos. it gives you a LOT of opportunity to play with and vary the amount of pivot, the energy of the pivot, and the length of each step, too. incredibly fun if your follower is paying attention.

i only ever do the other ochos if i'm leading them in doubletime... then the step/pivot combo just takes too long. also, in doubletime i tend to lead them with just small steps straight forward, not diagonal, and maybe with a very small initial pivot just to indicate that i want her to do ochos (though being in cross system tends to be enough of a lead for it... or i often cheat and start with single-time ochos and switch to double)

i'll admit to being biased -- likely unreasonably -- against the milonguero style ochos. it feels like a technique that's based on the assumption that you can only take small steps in close embrace... or at least, it gives less opportunity to play with that sort of thing.

of course, i'm just assuming, because i never use that style of ocho. for those of you who do ochos that way, what sorts of things do you do to vary them up? even if it is, i probably won't lead them that way, just the same :-D

[Peaches]

of course, i'm just assuming, because i never use that style of ocho. for those of you who do ochos that way, what sorts of things do you do to vary them up? even if it is, i probably won't lead them that way, just the same :-DI've had them varied by really emphasing the uncrossing swing part (don't know how else do describe it), so that the free leg swings pretty far out and around. And, I've had them varied by making them very slow, with a seemingly-huge back cross. It's kind of fun to really feel the stretch and shift in the torso and hips, and then to feel each incremental shift of weight over the receiving foot. I'll have to pay attention and see what other ways tend to get used.

[jfm]

Voleos, back ones on back ochos, front ones on front ochos or your partner might slip in some embellishments depending on what the music is doing... Or it might not need any variations to jazz it up because that bit might feel like an "ochoey" bit.

[Steve Pastor]

"milonguero style ochos. it feels like a technique that's based on the assumption that you can only take small steps in close embrace"

I had one class with Robert Hauk, who is based here in Portland, and specializes in "milonguero" style. Some of you may know him. This year he will be in San Diego, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Urbana, and Atlanta. (I love his essay here http://home.teleport.com/~robhauk/navigation1.html .)

I asked about don't we always dance small steps in this style. He said, of course not, and then danced really large steps with the same embrace.

"Milonguero" is known for small steps because, we are told, it comes from dance venues that are really crowded. The small steps come from the fact that there isn't much room, and sometimes you even have to dance in place.
BUT, if there is room you can take larger steps.
I learned to dance milonga for instance in this milonguero / apilado / close embrace style, and I love really moving when there is room to do so.

Here' one "variation" for a close embrace "milonguero style" ocho.
Start from "crossed feet", the woman on your right. (Hopefully she won't cross automatically on your second step.)
You get her to move her right foot behind herself by moving the left side of your torso forward. Your torso should proceed movement by your stepping foot.
Her foot should begin moving as her torso moves backwards (the right side of her body, and her right foot moving back and behind.)
Your torso continues to rotate to your right as you step forward on your right. Your right foot lands as her right foot lands.
Now, she must put all of her weight onto that right foot, keep her weight towards you, and give a solid connection to the ground She, too, has rotated her torso to maintain a solid connection with you.
If you watch someone do this, it's pretty clear the common axis is well forward of both partner's feet.
When the man lands on his right foot he must continue to pivot towards his partner, as the torso striaghtens. The woman's torso also straightens, and you are now back in a regular, crossed feet embrace.

Both partners have to really be commited to the embrace for this to work. It's a high energy thing that you don't see too often.

Another variation would be to follow the "foot behind diagonally" with an
"amague". As the woman places her weight on the "backward diagonally stepping foot", you move straight forward as she is collecting. The foot that is in front will go straight back across the front of the now weighted foot (if you catch it early enough).
This backward movement of her foot and leg could then be reversed giving a snappy little motion. Or you could lead a weight change there and she will have crossed.

I have found that these things are not possible with a "just standing there barely touching each other" close embrace, which is why I favor apilado if I am doing close embrace.

Hopefully, this makes sense.

[Me]

I was up in Portland and took some classes from him one evening. He was very welcoming and the people there extremely warm. This was in stark contrast to my time spent as a wallflower at a milonga the night before. Had a few dances but was mostly ignored, as were many other ladies who kept the seats near me warm. I would have been tempted to write off most of the Portland tango scene as elitist (as many of the dancers at this particular milonga seemed content to 'show out' and dance only with one another) but Robert's classes and people changed my mind. I know it's common for newcomers at milongas to be somewhat ignored, but sadly Portland was my worst experience with this, and I've been to many milongas in the US and went to milongas in Paris. (Even with a moderate language barrier I had many dances in Paris.) I was told by my coach and partner that Portland was a very friendly and advanced tango community, and I was disappointed to find that though there were some very skilled dancers there, their social skills were rather lacking. He was very surprised to learn of my experience (even though it turns out in the past another student of his had complained of being ignored at this particular milonga) but told me that he was not surprised that Robert was so welcoming. So Robert and his students sort of redeemed Portland for me. ;) I do know that if I go back, I will not go to a milonga by myself. A partner is a must-have.

[Steve Pastor]

Sadly, I can tell you that not only have I heard the same thing from other people who came here from out of town, but I, too, see something similar from my male perspective as someone who is going on five years of consistent dancing of tango in Portland.
I can safely say that, as you get better at tango, and probably all dances, it gets harder and harder to find partners that "make it happen" with you. But tango can be such an intimate dance, especially with close embrace / apilado / milonguero style. And we don't have the universal "basic pattern" to fall back on.
And, you pretty much commit yourself to three to four dances with someone.

And from a male perspective, just yesterday a friend and I were sharing stories about how various women simply do not dance with many to most of the men in the community (even after the men have gone through several years of lessons and dancing).

To their credit many of the instructors, and the people who organize the tango festivals in town, know that they have a problem. They just haven't figured out how to solve it.

Meanwhile, I hope everyone will consider stopping in at the Sunday practica at the Viscount Dance Studios when you are in Portland. http://home.europa.com/%7Ewalsup/tango/venues.html#sunday_practica (http://home.europa.com/%7Ewalsup/tango/venues.html#sunday_practica)
There are no promises for any given Sunday (atttendance is lighter during the summer), but this really is a lot less formal than the milongas.

Last week I danced with a woman from Boston (among others). This week, after a few tandas with someone I've known for almost 5 years now, I danced with a (to me) very young woman who had been taking lessons for only 5 weeks, and another woman who has been coming to lessons for a while now. Bill Alsup, who is one of two regular hosts for this event, really seems to enjoy dancing with new people (usually women) along with his other duties as host.

All of you have a standing invitation to contact me if you are considering going to this practica. I will do my best to introduce you to a few people and (if you are female) dance a couple of tandas with you. And Bill and I aren't the only ones willing to dance with new people.

I'm glad that Robert and his students sort of redeemed Portland for you.

[Peaches]

I was up in Portland and took some classes from him one evening. He was very welcoming and the people there extremely warm. This was in stark contrast to my time spent as a wallflower at a milonga the night before. Had a few dances but was mostly ignored, as were many other ladies who kept the seats near me warm. I would have been tempted to write off most of the Portland tango scene as elitist (as many of the dancers at this particular milonga seemed content to 'show out' and dance only with one another) but Robert's classes and people changed my mind. I know it's common for newcomers at milongas to be somewhat ignored, but sadly Portland was my worst experience with this, and I've been to many milongas in the US and went to milongas in Paris. (Even with a moderate language barrier I had many dances in Paris.) I was told by my coach and partner that Portland was a very friendly and advanced tango community, and I was disappointed to find that though there were some very skilled dancers there, their social skills were rather lacking. He was very surprised to learn of my experience (even though it turns out in the past another student of his had complained of being ignored at this particular milonga) but told me that he was not surprised that Robert was so welcoming. So Robert and his students sort of redeemed Portland for me. ;) I do know that if I go back, I will not go to a milonga by myself. A partner is a must-have.Ditto. Minus the redemption.

[spectator]

Are Tango crowds less welcoming to outsiders than other groups?
I think there is an element of playing safe to it. When I moved to a new city I went to classes for weeks and nobody invited me to practice at the practica. It wasn't because I couldn't dance well (it sounds so bad, but I am one of the better dancers, but that's because I've been doing it longer) but no one wanted to take the risk. These days I never go somewhere new alone, you need some one to show you off if you are a follower.

[Me]

I really don't know... I've had such strange experiences when entering tango communities. When I decided to start commuting to New Orleans for milongas several people told me 'Don't go! Those guys are rude and will ignore you!' But, honestly? That has been by far one of the nicest I've ever gone to, and I drive there frequently because of this. Then you have Portland - that community had a reputation for warmth and skill, yet when I went there, the society was about as cold as the weather.

[Peaches]

It certainly seems that way.

The best thing I ever did was attend a "tango exchange" locally. It mixed up the tango scene a bit, which broke up some of the cliques enough to make an entrance. Also, the situation lent itself to taking a chance on new people, and getting to know new faces. Since I did that, I haven't had any problem being asked to dance. I know that I can walk into various milongas and "owe" a half-dozen people dances right away. From there, it gets easier.

[Ampster]

My personal observations on why some men do not ask some women to dance:

*Disclaimer: These are my observations and my opinions alone

Intimidation:
Some women are not asked to dance because the men who are in the milongas are totally intimidated by how good you look, and how good you move
Wasn't impressed:

Opposite of number one (see above). They saw you dance before and were not impressed by how you moved or looked
Nobody knows you:

People normaly go with the familiar. If you're a stranger, it will probably harder for someone to drum up courage to ask you
Coupled with the other factors, things could get worse
The Cliques:

Some people in cliques will only dance within that group
If you happened to be in a milonga that was pervaded, then you'd probably end up not being asked
I do have a clique of my own. But, a major part of our charter is to dance with anyone at any level. We do this to hone our lead and follow skills to make any dance something beautiful. So, if your in Seattle, let me know ;)
The way you look:

Be as beautiful as you can be, and match the crowds "Persona"
Dress "Hip," or "Casual" if you're in a milonga frequeted by the Nuevo
Dress "Elegant" if you're in a milonga frequented by the Vieja

Body Language:

Sometimes, the way one projects oneself on a chair discourages men from approaching you
Try this link: look at "How to sit..." http://tinatangos.wordpress.com/tag/etiquette-at-milongas/
Women sit together (Strength in numbers)

Some men would not ask you to dance because all the women are sitting in a big bunch
They don't want to offend the others by homing in on you to dance. So, to save the others' feelings, they won't ask you, until you break away (i.e. get a drink, get a snack, come back from the lady's room, etc.)
I'm going to move this off into a new string!

[Dave Bailey]

Are Tango crowds less welcoming to outsiders than other groups?
I guess it depends :)

Assuming you mean "Other groups of dancers in different forms", then I'd say no - about average I think, from the places I've been to in the UK.

Much less welcoming than Modern Jivers, probably a bit more welcoming than salseros - there probably should be a "marks out of 10" graph for this...

There's definitely a "rural / city" split, and some places in (for example) Central London are so exclusive it's scary. On the other hand, tango festivals in the UK are very friendly indeed.

Tangueros and tangueras are just people after all - and most people are friendly when you get to know them.