Dancing Backwards!

[jfm]

I don't know if this is specific to Tango in the UK or it is like this everywhere outside of Argentina...

Over the last two years I have been continuously bemused at the way we learn to Tango backwards!

After 6 months of lessons once a week our teacher decided that we were good enough to learn Colgadas and vulcadas. How? So for a year or so there's people trying to do these technically difficult moves which require excellent technique on both parts to be safe and look good, and then one or two have suddenly noticed in the last moth or so that actually it would be better if they actually learnt how to lead a giro without the follower Robo Giroing.

It seems to me that we learn how to do all these tricks and steps first, but learn the most fundamental things like how to walk right last...

I know this must be because the "Forever Tango" moves draw people in and hold their interest at the start so they get interested enough to learn the basics but should it really take upwards of two years before people want to learn to ocho properly?

How can we teach beginners things that make them want to come back without
a. teaching things they really really shouldn't do without excellent balance and posture (owww my back!)
b. distracting them for *years* before they want to learn technique? ie can we make the gap shorter?

What are your thoughts on our backwards learning?

[spectator]

er... kidnap them and put them through the Ludovico technique but using films of bad dancing?

[Dave Bailey]

I don't know if this is specific to Tango in the UK or it is like this everywhere outside of Argentina...
To be honest, I don't think the standard of AT teaching / dancing in the UK is particularly high compared to many other countries :(

But for all teachers, they have to balance "technique" against "commercial interest".

Flashy moves pull lots of new punters in, unfortunately. Plus, it's much easier to teach form than technique. So you have both commercial and effort incentives to not teach technique.

So you have to be quite dedicated and non-commercial a teacher, to focus on doing things the "hard way". Of course, that means your students aren't learning much - and indeed may have to unlearn a lot - but you'll be getting lots of cash, game, glamour and so on.

The only way I know of to avoid this trap, is to teach tango in courses of 10 or more weeks, and get the money upfront - that means you can spend more time on technique without worrying about going bust.

Of course, persuading people to shell out 10 weeks' tuition in advance is more tricky...

[Twirly]

I definitely agree that there is a problem. However, I also think each dancer needs to take some responsibility. If you live in a big city, like London, there should be teachers for everyone, whether you want to learn flashy moves or work on your technique. You have to go to the right place. It might take you a while to realise what you need (which is always basic technique), but until you get there you might not be interested and just get bored.

In the end private lessons might be the only way to really learn.

[Twirly]

In the beginning many people take dance classes as a social thing, so maybe it would be possible to "cover up" the lack of cool steps by having a really nice, friendly environment where people find it easy to make new friends and have a good time. Then they'd come back. Just a thought.

[bordertangoman]

When I teach beginners I use some exercises that develop connection, they do lots of ochos often solo and exercises to get, frinstance, smooth giros and transitions.

With the next level up I introduce new steps but I always use this as a vehicle to work on technique.

[Steve Pastor]

Golly, and I thought this was going to be about the dreaded backstep!

One reason I was attracted to AT in my town was that the most of the instructors stressed musicality. Now there's a concept!
I can remember how frustrating it was to learn all of the elements of something I now take for granted such as leading the woman to cross. And try to be in time with the music.
Learning something as basic as standing up straight (with all of the components that are invovled), and resisting the urge to hunch over towards my partner (especially in close embrace), took many lessons, practice at home, being conscious of it when dancing, etc.
And not using my hands and arms to lead...

Let's face it. Tango is really hard to learn to do "correctly".

I was initially drawn to it, though, for the same reason as many people. I loved what I saw in "The Tango Lesson". I even (with the help of my partner Cathy) copped some things from that film for a dance performance.

During my first lesson I had a small sample of the groundedness that could be there. I can "just" walk with someone to the right music, if they are there with me and it feels like we are really connected. (Same thing is possible with two step.)
In the absence of that...

Here's a thought. Maybe people teach form rather than substance not only because "it's what people want", but maybe that's all some of them know.

[Peaches]

Maybe it's just because you have to start somewhere?

Yeah, technique and musicality are great. But if a teacher spends tons of time stressing correct ocho/walking techniqe and little else from the beginning, the person starting really isn't going to be able to dance much at a milonga. I've heard a comparatively well-known, well-respected teacher (who is, truly, a beautiful dancer and a good teacher) tell newbies in his class that, QUOTE, they "weren't welcome" at his milonga until blah blah blah. And that until they could do x, y, and z, they really had no place at any milonga. Yay, technique (he did teach that nicely)...but way to go with finding the PERFECT way to turn people off. I swear, I am not making this up.

Contrast this with another set of visiting teachers, who were also amazing, beautiful dancers, who described their method of teaching as "chocolate and vegetables." As in, make them work on technique some, but also have some fun and give them something they could use in a milonga right away. I took one of their group classes. They were true to their word. We spent about 15 minutes walking--forward, and back. Together--forward, and back. And then they showed the 8CB and one other thing...don't remember what. People were ENCOURAGED.

Technique is great, but I think it has to be given a little at a time. Especially in a group class situation, where the people are (probably) less hard core. They want to have fun, first and foremost...at least at first. Technique can happen little by little...after they've become thoroughly addicted. :-)

[Me]

Other than the basic 6, basic 8, and ocho, my coach does nothing more with beginners until he teaches them how to walk! Usually everybody can hold themselves up somewhat after the first two lessons, so he'll move on to other variations of the material, but he is constantly enforcing that students find their 'middle' and that tango is a natural walking movement.

I'm a lucky girl, lol!

[bastet]

Wow peaches, that a horrible thing for anyone to have to experience..eek...I hope the people in the class didn't get too turned off.

I do have to agree with you about technique versus material. The first teacher we had (for about 3 months) did nothing but technique. I don't think we got more than one thing out of it for use on a social dance floor, which is why we left. And I have nothing at all against technique. I'm all for learning good technique. But all we had were pretty little excersizes that we couldn't relate to anything we knew how to do. It was so frustrating we almost stopped dancing tango. Then we went to a different teacher that people from the other class kept telling us not to go to and got a lot of that fixed the first month so that we understood what the excersizes related to on the dance floor...that was encouraging. So we kept up with it.

I'm in total agreement with you. It's a delicate balance, you've definitely got to have some technique, but you've got to have a little "chocolate" too for encouragement. I think as a dancer gets more interested (addicted :) ) the desire to learn more technique tends to come on its own and so a teacher would have to find a happy medium of "enough" technique to "whelm" but not "overwhelm" to keep things balanced and to keep people interested and the people who are interested in tearing it apart tend to end up doing privates. Using a new step to intruduce a new technique concept or vice versa is a good way to have a little bit of both worlds.

[Gssh]

I was lucky - my teachers beginner series is walking, axis, ochos (taught as "walk - find axis - pivot - walk - find axis - pivot", and the cross.

And he has plenty of students. I think the secret is to stress musicality, and make people _dance_. In the first lesson, after teaching about connection, finding the axis ("If you know which foot she is able to move you will never step on her"), and not being afraid of stepping forward ("you know that that foot is not going to be there anymore - her body moves, and she HAS to move that foot" - he gets people to dance to two or three songs using only these tools, and everybody feels they are dancing, not just practicing for dancing sometime in the future - and they come back. I mean, people enjoy swaying left and right when they slowdance - so being able to walk, and stop, and sway, and walk again should obviously be even more enjoyable. I never understood how people who start with the 8cb make the jump from "i have to recreate this figure" to "Hey, i am dancing with a beautiful woman!".

Gssh

[Sagitta]

Over here they teach walking first. Granted there is fast progression in the 6 week beginner class to doing simple ochos and the cruzada by the end of the six weeks...but nothing fancier than that. I remember the first lesson was walking...for the most part.

[Peaches]

Wow peaches, that a horrible thing for anyone to have to experience..eek...I hope the people in the class didn't get too turned off. I wouldn't know. Quite unfortunately, the milonga he hosts is one of the LEAST welcoming ones I've ever seen. I don't go. I did hear plenty of grumbles after the class, though. (And rightly so, there was plenty of out-of-the-way room for newbies to practice their thing and feel included without disturbing anyone else.)

It's a delicate balance, you've definitely got to have some technique, but you've got to have a little "chocolate" too for encouragement. I think as a dancer gets more interested (addicted :) ) the desire to learn more technique tends to come on its own and so a teacher would have to find a happy medium of "enough" technique to "whelm" but not "overwhelm" to keep things balanced and to keep people interested and the people who are interested in tearing it apart tend to end up doing privates. Using a new step to intruduce a new technique concept or vice versa is a good way to have a little bit of both worlds.
Exactly. Face it, as much as the addicts among us would love to see so much focus on technique and musicality, not everyone is like us. A lot of people just want to have a new-and-different experience with their SO on a Tuesday (or whatever) night, and try "dancing." And that's fine. If it makes them happy, good for them. It certainly doesn't hurt me, any. I might cringe at the thought of what/how they're learning, but if they're satisfied with what they are getting, who am I to argue?

Even with my addiction, and 1.5 years in, I still can get very frustrated with more than about 10 minutes of concentrated technique on 1 thing. OK, so I have the attention span of a gnat with ADD, so be it. But people have got to be INTERESTED first...or it will never go anywhere. And I think you're right--interest in technique does develop.

Another thing--which I have absolutely no data for, but is just a gut feeling, so if I'm completely off base then don't hesitate to point it out to me :-) --is that it seems as though people lose the concept of movement when they start to learn to dance. I've noticed this will ballroom, and also with tango. Take a person who can walk just fine, introduce him to a step, and all of a sudden he's Frankenstein's monster. I think there's something to be said for encouraging movement, and then layering on technique. Maybe it's just how I learn--layers...very thin layers.

[bastet]

Oh totally! - Someone can be doing just fine, and then you show them something new and WOAH! where did it all go??? I get that with leading. I've followed for years and years...but learning to lead I've surprised myself at how many things I forget to do just because I am working on TRYING to lead properly and getting the idea of "leading" in to my muscle memory! I'm sure i look like Fransenstein's monster sometimes too! It gets better as I do it more, but slinging technique at me mercilessly while I am still trying to wrap my brain around a new body motion usually doesn't work for me. Once the muscles know what to do, it's easier to back off and fine tune and say "Ok..it's under control now...what can we do to make this look and feel really good now?" I'd say I'm not alone in working that way. But also, in my mind, this is not the same thing as a teacher trying to teach difficult things like volcadas to students who can't even control their own axis and balance, which I think is in part what the first question was about. I think a good teacher will know (or should know) how to gauge their class levels and teach appropriate material, when to move on, and when to go back and fine tune other things first.

[jfm]

In the beginning many people take dance classes as a social thing, so maybe it would be possible to "cover up" the lack of cool steps by having a really nice, friendly environment where people find it easy to make new friends and have a good time. Then they'd come back. Just a thought.

that's so so so true! mybe fewer frowns, more smiles from the teachers and improvers?

[jfm]

Golly, and I thought this was going to be about the dreaded backstep!

One reason I was attracted to AT in my town was that the most of the instructors stressed musicality.

Yes! You know it only seems to be the "advanced" dancers who go to these lessons! That seems to be the very last step and it should be the first!

[jhpark]

i spent a lot of time on technique, realizing from my experience with swing dancing that i suck (suck suck suck) at learning new moves. so i decided to learn how to do a few things at a time, and learn how to do those things well, as opposed to learning how to do many things badly. so i can spend an hour on just one figure and then try variations on entrances, degree of attack (for a sacada related move, for example) and how to combine it with other figures, and then how to vary the movement dependign on the kind of music i'm dancing to. it's a lot of fun for me, but i can see how other people would be bored by it.

fortunately i've built up enough of a repetoire that my followers don't get bored by my approach to dancing, but i'm sure for a while they got bored with the combo of just walking, ochos, molinetes, and boleos... my problem now is that i have a little hierarchy in my head, and i just don't do the 'harder' figures if the 'easier' ones don't feel really good with that particular partner. but then i see others dancing with these people and doing hte more difficult figures -- and then i tried it, and hey, some of them work. so i get confused. :)