Going from Open Embrace to Close Embrace

[bonz]

I don't know the spanish or Tango name for going from open to close. I was just taught the move in a workshop. Now I wonder; How do you followers feel about a leader who takes you from an open embrace to a close embrace?

[Peaches]

So long as he's not icky, and not throwing things off with his own problems (balance, esp) it's about the same as going from close embrace to open. It's just another way of doing things.

[Joe]

Some figures are more comfortable in closed than open (and vice versa), and often the hold will just automatically change without much in the way of conscious thought.

[Twirly]

Yes, completely normal. I would think it strange to dance a whole dance just in open. There are some moves that are much nicer in close. But it's important it happens naturally and feels like it's part of the dance.

Don't much like the other way, i.e. changing from close to open. It throws me sometimes if you're dancing a simple nice close embrace dance with your eyes closed and the guy opens up and completely changes the mood.

[Steve Pastor]

bonz:
Playing devil's advocate, how did this instructor justify "taking" a woman from open to close embrace?
Who taught this, if you don't mind?

[Novice]

My theory, somewhat as mentioned above, is that the leader is the choreographer of the dance. If you are confident in your ability to lead it and feel the need to change the embrace, whether it is because the music told you to or because it would make a step nicer, and you feel your follower can do it comfortably, then you lead the change. She agreed to dance with you. IMO, this means that she is comfortable with the dance that you have to offer, or she would not have accepted your offer to dance in the first place. Lead her accordingly.

[Steve Pastor]

Bonz never came back to answer my question, so here is my take on this, based on a pretty fair number of lessons from a pretty fair number of teachers.

When a woman agrees to dance with a man, whether its tango or just "slow dancing", she is not agreeing to put her breasts against his chest.
The woman determines whether you will dance open or close.

[Gssh]

My personal theory:

The follower decides if she wants to dance close embrace or open embrace. When we embrace for the first dance i wait for her to pick the distance, and i might change the embrace if it "feels right", but if she doesn't want to switch into close embrace/is noticable uncomfortable there i go back into open embrace.

Related pet rant (that i have actually never made to anybody before, i don't know how to say this in RL without sounding even to myself like a jerk):
Followers who don't know if they want to dance open or close embrace - for me there are subtle differences in how the connection works in either of these styles, and some followers who hover at "an inch distance between chests" feel very uncomfortable to me - the problem is really my problem because i am starting to switch into thinking about close embrace because that is what the situation feels like for me, and is the follower wants to continue dancing open embrace while being at a close embrace distance i get confused.

Gssh

[Steve Pastor]

What you just described feels to me like you have nothing to lead with.
You aren't supposed to use your arms. Usually when a woman moves that close there is no or little tone in either arm, and they are "on their own axis".
You can't lead with your torso, because when you move it left or right they can't feel it because that movement will not go through space using the Tango Force, or some such magic.
To me, it's just frustrating as all get out, and after a short period of time I will either put some space between us so that I can lead with a "frame", or tell her that if she wants to dance in close embrace she has to share weight with me.

[samina]

every time i see a woman leaning forward in AT and her feet back behind her, i wonder... what is she doing to remain fully balanced & off her partner? i can't imagine how she'd be both on her own axis AND relaxed...

it's come to mind -- and into one conversation -- just this week...

[spectator]

it is easy to balance with your weight forward, especially in high heels, although possibly not so easy if you have very large breasts cos of diffrent COM issue. Unless its 'apilado' and that's where you tend to see more extreme positions. Then there is some lean, but she is still balanced.

There is a big difference between closing the embrace to allow for a movement such as a single axis turn and trying to force someone into dancing close. I think the change in the embrace to accomadate a turn or something happens very naturally and there is no need to force it. In fact if you are trying to pull her in, you are probably doing it wrong so maybe it's best to abadon what you were doing and try something else?

[Steve Pastor]

We must have posted nearly simultaneously.
She is NOT on her own axis, and neither is the man. They are sharing weight.
Maintaining this position correctly involves keeping the pelvis in a neutral position. But the objective is to achieve a posture where there is stored energy in the couples' shared axis.
It also forms a hard to miss connection where the smallest movements in the the man's torso are conveyed to the woman.
It really is quite striking when you feel how much your bodies are joined.
You are quite literally giving yourselves to each other.
This is not to everyones taste, but many of us are in love with it.
One term for it is apilado.

[samina]

She is NOT on her own axis, and neither is the man. They are sharing weight.

yes, that is how it looks to me

Maintaining this position correctly involves keeping the pelvis in a neutral position. But the objective is to achieve a posture where there is stored energy in the couples' shared axis.
It also forms a hard to miss connection where the smallest movements in the the man's torso are conveyed to the woman.
It really is quite striking when you feel how much your bodies are joined.
You are quite literally giving yourselves to each other.
This is not to everyones taste, but many of us are in love with it.
One term for it is apilado.

so, if this is the stance for apilado, what is the type of tango called that spectator is describing? i know there are a variety of types...

btw, the way you describe it, steve... sounds wonderful.

[Steve Pastor]

Just in general people refer to it as open embrace. Going from open to close is somtimes called a liquid embrace. There are other, numerous names for these things.

Obviously, people, including the highly respected teachers, have different opinions about sharing weight. I've had enough lessons from enough people, and danced with enough women, to have formed the opinion that it is when the woman is entirely on her own axis, rather than being enough forward to have some weight going towards her partner, that makes it hard to lead, or to feel the lead.

[Gssh]

Exactly! If i am dancing close embrace we are connected because we both lean forward, and our energies meet at our chests - its not us just standing really close - there needs to be lean forward to create a connection. We are activly sharing information through our chests.

Its like in open embrace: both partners have to activly maintain and support the circle of the two frames, and only if we do that we can have a connection. The follower needs to have a presence in the embrace, they have to conenct to my right arm and to my left arm. The movement of the center gets transmitted by the frames. If she doesn't offer me her frame i can't lead.

Just like Steve said, there are different "pathways" that the movement of the center can be transmitted through. In open embrace it is the frame, in close embrace it is directly center to center. So for me followers who appear like they are dancing close embrace (which requires a connection between centers), but are not actually offering this connection is very confusing. And they don't give me the frame needed for open embrace, either (besides, the open embrace energy just doesn't feel good at this distance).

I love how direct the connection in close embrace is - for me it is the key to enjoying milonga and fast tangos - the way you can play with the rythm and the energy is just so much more direct, and because we both activly maintain this connection i can feel very subtly moves on her part, and how she is playing with her steps. Its almost as if i feel her feet as much as i feel mine. Some simple moves, like crosses or ochos become amazing when you can actually feel how both bodies weave in and out of sync.

Gssh

[Peaches]

I'm starting to toy with apilado now. I'm not convinced, as of yet, that I like it. I don't like the feeling of being continually off balance. Yes, the leader is also off balance. Yes, we are balanced together. But I don't care to be off balance that much.

You can, however, be in close embrace without dancing apilado. This, I like very much. There is still a very strong feeling of connection and "one-ness."

Neither is an uncomfortable position. If it is, something is wrong. Neither is it difficult, in either style, to feel the lead.

One thing I'd like to mention WRT determining the lead in open embrace. I HATE the feel of a "frame" in open. I keep my arms very relaxed, with very little pressure in them. For me, the lead still comes from the man's chest. I have to watch it, but that's generally where my gaze ends up anyway. I think of it like playing with magnets when you have the same poles towards each other--I just keep the distance and angle about the same. Of course, for interesting things the leads hands/arms come into play, in which case I respond to pressure. But still, no real "frame" to speak of.

[bordertangoman]

One thing I'd like to mention WRT determining the lead in open embrace. I HATE the feel of a "frame" in open. I keep my arms very relaxed, with very little pressure in them. For me, the lead still comes from the man's chest. I have to watch it, but that's generally where my gaze ends up anyway. I think of it like playing with magnets when you have the same poles towards each other--I just keep the distance and angle about the same. Of course, for interesting things the leads hands/arms come into play, in which case I respond to pressure. But still, no real "frame" to speak of.

this is good. often following and leading without touching at all improves the connection, but you have to rely on sight rather than touch.

[JonD]

To my mind "axis" simply means being in your own balance - being able to stand, step or pivot without relying on your partner to support you. I prefer a partner who retains her own axis whether we are in open or close-embrace. She can be "present" in the dance and provide "resistance" without leaning on me. Apillado can be fun sometimes but it's restricting, very restricting at my sorry level of competence, in terms of the movements you can make.

My personal preference is for a fluid embrace which opens and closes to reflect the mood and movement of the dance. That means there are frequent transitions as we open to permit a more dramatic movement or close to reflect a more intimate engagement. Apillado, "V" embrace, very open, 1cm apart but not touching, chest to chest - all these things and more happen in the course of a tango. Changes in the embrace are invited - to open lead the lady long and step short, to close lead the lady short and step long (I find closing the embrace is most easily achieved in anti-clockwise circular movements). Interestingly, I find it more difficult to get some followers to open the embrace than I do to get them into close embrace - sometimes I simply get a surprise volcada and a chuckle!

I agree with Peaches and bordertangoman on the use of the frame in open embrace - I keep my arms quite relaxed as well. The lead is still coming from my centre and the follower is focussed on that. The frame exists but is soft, although the degree of tension will vary to some extent depending on the movement. I think the only times it becomes almost rigid are in colgadas and volcadas where I've deliberately taken the follower off her axis and need to support her.

Trying to lead without any physical contact is a very useful, illuminating and, dare I say it, humbling exercise. It's a good way of reversing any tendency to get lazy about connection.

[bonz]

Steve, Mike Tennant taught the class in a recent workshop in St. Louis. He didn't discuss the "justify aspect", he just said the moves are really cool and rolled them out. He was right. The only time I get a wierd feeling from the follower is if she is a beginner. All of the experienced followers like the change from open to close. Tried it twice last night at a benefit dance for the Christine Ladas fund. They followers were cool with it.

[Steve Pastor]

Gotta disagree with this one.
"Trying to lead without any physical contact is a very useful, illuminating and, dare I say it, humbling exercise. It's a good way of reversing any tendency to get lazy about connection."
When I dance with women who tell me they are watching my chest for the lead it usually follows a song or two of dancing with someone who is out there touching me but isn't really connected to me.
Maybe I feel this way because the only dancing I ever did for a long time was non partner partner dancing. The kind where you stay a few feet away from each other and do your thing.
Cunitas, or rock steps, are the first place this kind of connection doesn't cut it.
And it should be obvious that learning to follow a visual lead is usless when you can't see the man's chest in close embrace.

I did the visual lead exercise many times when I started. Now I think of it as a detour on the way to learning to feel the lead. Here's that big word again - proprioperception.

Granted, many of the women that dance this way look good when they dance. And initially I thought, man, I must be getting pretty good if she is doing all that stuff. After a while though it began to feel like it had little to do with me.

But, of course, this is my opinion and is in no way meant to be a criticism of the way anyone dances or teaches.
(Have I covered myself?)

[Gssh]

But, of course, this is my opinion and is in no way meant to be a criticism of the way anyone dances or teaches.
(Have I covered myself?)

I am going to steal all those disclaimers :) - and say that i am also not too fond of the a purely visual lead. I think it is an important exercise, because it makes the couple aware of the fact that the dynamic is not "the leader moves the follower", but "the leader marks, the follower moves mostly by herself". Honestly, i think when dancing with a good follower the frame is more to the leaders benefit than the followers - i can not look at her shoulders to determine where her weight is, or how she chose to interpret the mark, or feel if she did a little double time or cross where i didn't really intend for it. Some things, like the classical stepover are not completely determined by the lead, and if i cannot feel her footwork i am almost certain to pull her off her axis sooner or later. I find visual lead exhilerating in practicing, because it makes the idea of having a connection almost tangible, but in a milonga where i spend most of my time looking at other leaders and where i will reverse and change directions all the time it becomes really important to be able to feel what the follower is doing.

I think dancing without visual clues (either the followers with closed eyes, or as a great exercise of connection the leader with closed eyes (this needs an big dancefloor, with only a few couples, lots of giros and a real commitment to the idea that if the follower is interpreting the mark in a certain way she had her reasons - i think it also teaches the leader improvising and adapting which really helps on crowded dancefloors) is as valuable in developing a proper lead/frame: relaxed, soft, but present and active.

Gssh

Gssh

[bordertangoman]

Gotta disagree with this one.
"Trying to lead without any physical contact is a very useful, illuminating and, dare I say it, humbling exercise. It's a good way of reversing any tendency to get lazy about connection."
When I dance with women who tell me they are watching my chest for the lead it usually follows a song or two of dancing with someone who is out there touching me but isn't really connected to me.
Maybe I feel this way because the only dancing I ever did for a long time was non partner partner dancing. The kind where you stay a few feet away from each other and do your thing.
Cunitas, or rock steps, are the first place this kind of connection doesn't cut it.
And it should be obvious that learning to follow a visual lead is usless when you can't see the man's chest in close embrace.

I did the visual lead exercise many times when I started. Now I think of it as a detour on the way to learning to feel the lead. Here's that big word again - proprioperception.

Granted, many of the women that dance this way look good when they dance. And initially I thought, man, I must be getting pretty good if she is doing all that stuff. After a while though it began to feel like it had little to do with me.

But, of course, this is my opinion and is in no way meant to be a criticism of the way anyone dances or teaches.
(Have I covered myself?)

eyes wide open or eyes wide shut? I think either can work for different reasons. If the eyes are the gateway to the soul then what could be better?
As Salvador Dali described his idea of love as two people some distance apart in a room, fully clothed, acheiving simultanoeuos org*** by looking into each other's eyes!!! Or nothing worse than a close embrace with a woman who is on a different wavelength to you. I knew this German girl who could only do close embrace but I could never lead her, she was always intruding on my axis and throwing me off balance. Maurice Castro suggest we don't need to stare either we can see a lot with our peripheral vision ( Which has helped keep me alive on a bicycle - I've seen cars coming at me from the aside and taken evasive action.)

I digress. For me what works is the 'elastic embrace' - the ability to move from close to open according to need.

[Steve Pastor]

And I may steal this description of "frame"...

a proper lead/frame: relaxed, soft, but present and active.

same for the follower IMO

[JonD]

Gotta disagree with this one.
I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with. My suggestion was that, as an exercise, attempting to lead without any physical contact was useful: when I do it I am reminded of the importance of being really clear, unambiguous, in the way I use my body to lead; it reminds me of the need to wait for my partner, not to rush ahead or ignore her reaction to my lead; it reminds me of the absolute need to focus on my partner, to be aware of her movement and it's interaction with mine. By removing the tactile elements of my lead I am forced to focus very hard on those other elements - the fact that during the exercise I, and my follower, are absorbing the information through our eyes does not preclude us from applying the lessons learnt when we are dancing close-embrace and she has her eyes shut.

Sometimes I am guilty of dancing with a partner in a "technical" way - I get lazy about maintaining a connection and don't focus on my partner as much as I should. In other words, I am not "engaged" in the dance. My technique is good enough that my lead still functions perfectly adequately but it is all a bit "antiseptic". The exercise of leading someone without any physical contact, which demands that I focus totally on my partner, reminds me of how important that focus is if you are to communicate intention and translate that into dance.

I would guess that I dance in close-embrace approximately 80-90% of the time but I do favour what bordertangoman refers to as an "elastic embrace" and what I term a "fluid embrace". When that embrace opens Julie opens her eyes (she shuts them when we're in close-embrace) and follows my chest, something that is assisted by the fact that we sometimes practice the "no physical contact" exercise. She doesn't follow my arms.

And I may steal this description of "frame"...

a proper lead/frame: relaxed, soft, but present and active.

same for the follower IMO
What do you mean by "present and active"? Do you mean that the frame is actively used to transmit a lead or that the frame is present as a reference point and active to the extent that it doesn't "drag" on either partner but that it's movement is solely the result of leads generated in the centre of the body? (I guess, for the sake of clarity, we'd better discuss the frame in an open-embrace context here).

I had some classes with Vincent Morelle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUUnJy3n_Bg&mode=related&search=) in Brussels last month. He generates huge power in his dance although he is quite restrained in that clip; in the workshops and dancing socially he can appear almost violent in the movement he generates. Julie looked frightened when he asked her to dance through some open-embrace figures with him but she returned looking amazed. Evidently his lead is "as light as a feather"; all that power and energy is transmitted through intention, channelled from his centre. His arms/frame have nothing to do with it, remaining totally relaxed and soft throughout although, to look at him, you'd think he was really using them to force his partner into movement. (I must go to Brussels and have some private lessons with Vincent and his dance partner Maryline LeFor - I want to learn to generate that power although I have no desire to release it as explosively as Vincent does! And besides, Maryline is an absolutely exquisite dancer and, truth be known, I think she's gorgeous).

As an exercise for close-embrace, I'd commend dancing with the leader's hands crossed behind his back, follower's left arm in normal position and her right hand on his shoulder/chest; you can lead everything because the lead comes from your centre, not your arms (it's great fun to lead a really swirly vals that way). Now try the same but with the follower's arms crossed behind her back as well; you have to be slightly more careful and allow more time because the follower no longer has the benefit of her arms as suspension but you can still lead and follow without any great problem. If you can find the space, doing those exercises with your eyes shut, as Gsssh suggests, is not only educational but huge fun. (They have this amazing milonga in Brussels where the dance floor is inside an old swimming pool (http://www.bains.be/index.html) - about 3' down so you have to climb down the pool steps to get to the floor. It's fantastic and Julie and I had it almost all to ourselves (one other couple) for about an hour. It's great for eyes closed dancing because, on 3 sides of the floor, you just brush off or bounce off the pool walls if the leader misjudges the space!)

[Steve Pastor]

Jon, and all:
For me tango is tactile. Asking someone to use their visual sense, rather than telling them that they need to feel their partners resistence, steps, balance, etc, is a distraction.

It is very difficult to put into words how the frame is supposed to work in tango. The amount of "stiffness" in the arms and shoulders varies, depending on what you are doing.
This is why I actually suggest to women who tell me they are following my lead when they aren't following well that we could dance in close embrace without using any arms.
This exercise takes out all the frame bs.
The feeling, though, of being connected, should be similar in an open embrace. If I move forward, and the woman lets her right arm move backward, I move forward and she doesn't.
The amount of force between our joined hands will change less and less as her ability to feel and respond to the increased pressure as I move forward.

If you have the "Assasination Tango" dvd, watch the dancing to "Una Emocion" at the very end of the film in super slow motion. Veron and Rojas would both fall over if they were not "actively" holding themselves together when they turn around each other. Their centers of gravity and centrifugal force would assure that .

The weaker the force between the connected parts of the bodies, the more difficult to feel any changes in pressure. For instance, if I rotate my torso to the left when the woman is weighed on her right foot, my left hand will move away from her right hand. This should be perceived as a lead. If she is pressing on my left hand, rather than barley touching it, she is more likely to feel it.

This doesn't mean of course that you should be pressing on your partner and holding your arms rigidly. But, there has to be something there.

And for me, when I know intellectually that the woman has just stepped where I led her, but I can't feel it, but I know she is really good so she did what I asked her to do, I am no where near as satisfied as when I feel her step. And that, for me, is made possible by a more "active" "energized" connection.

The whole business of "leads generated from the core of the body" is misleading, too. Once you know that "rule" of where the lead starts, you have to think about how it gets to your partner.

[JonD]

For me tango is tactile.
And for me. At it's best it is a gloriously tactile and sensual experience; 80-90% of the time I can't see my partner and she can't see me (as she normally has her eyes closed).

I don't think that using visual connection in open embrace detracts from that; it's not as if it's a purely "watch and mimic" sort of exercise. It's more about using all your senses to read your partner's movement and intention.

The whole business of "leads generated from the core of the body" is misleading, too. Once you know that "rule" of where the lead starts, you have to think about how it gets to your partner.
I was thinking about this in the context of how Vincent taught the lead for the overturned forward ochos with sacada that he uses about 14 seconds into the clip I linked. He was talking about taking his intention from his centre and down through his hip to ask the follower to overturn the ocho so she was stepping away from him, almost in an "americano". How that communicates itself to the follower is a mystery to me - it's part visual, it's part the relationship between bodies but it's not due to any explicit use of the arms which are relaxed. (This concept of "channeling intention" through specific parts of the leader's body is new to me and something I'm struggling to apply - one of the perils of having a couple of lessons with a teacher who makes an impression but who you can't easily re-visit for clarification).

I guess my concern is that I see many leaders who "row"; who use their arms to lead movements without reference to their centre. That seems particularly true of those who favour what I'll term "show moves". It's a small step from there to heaving on the follower's spine to bring her into close embrace (and is a rather neat way for me to pretend that what I'm saying is directly relevant to the thread title). They answer that you must use the arms, there is no other way of communicating the required energy to the follower. That's a bit like saying that you need to generate a large rotational force in your body in order to do a triple spin and yet Julio Balmaceda can do a smooth, even, slow triple with only a tiny movement of his shoulders (while explaining how he's using his body at the same time, complete with arm gestures; how does he do that?!)

In colgadas, as in the Assassination Tango example, and volcadas the use of the arms, or at least one of them, is essential because we are physically supporting out partners, and ourselves, out of our axis. But when both partners are in their axis I don't think that arms are central to the lead. I think we often use our arms to compensate for deficiencies in technique; I often take my follower off axis in rotational movements because I'm not careful enough when moving around her and if I've knocked her off her axis I have to hold her up and physically move her because she can no longer do it herself. Try an open embrace gancho from a "mirror" or "americano" position, where the follower ganchos the outside of your left leg with her left leg - some folk can do that "no arms" but I sure as hell can't; it looks like a traffic accident if I try. (See, I do have some "show moves" in my repertoire!)

In your example I'd suggest the follower is following your torso rather than your arm; if you take the arm away I bet she still takes the step you are inviting. When I've had the opportunity to dance with really accomplished followers I am immediately aware of how relaxed their right arm is - most of the time there's little or no "dance tension" as we'd understand it in Modern Jive or Salsa. Indeed, I remember finding it quite disconcerting the first time I danced with Gisela Navoni and discovered that her right arm had almost no tension at all. I agree that there is "something there" and you've prompted me to re-evaluate my understanding of how lead/follow in open embrace works. My sense is that the arms are secondary compared to the lead coming from the body but it's something I'll consider in more detail. I'm seeing Komala & Stefan, who are over from El Corte, in Bristol tonight so I'll bore them to death and try and get their take on the issue!

Isn't it great to have a "grown up" discussion of dance issues that we're both pondering? It's one of the delights of this forum. Thank you.

[Steve Pastor]

Love Komala and Stefan. Very nice people, and excellent insructors. One of the last times I had had a lesson with them they encouraged us to dance milonga "as if we were stepping in mud". There I've deviated from their advice, but it depends on the music.
Tell them the folks from Portland say hello.

[JonD]

Tell them the folks from Portland say hello.
Komala and Stefan say "Hi" and are you the Steve who wears colourful shirts?!

K & S are great teachers and lovely people. I learnt tons last night but didn't have a chance to talk through the frame stuff we've been discussing as they were both too focussed on the class and practica to indulge in a lengthy discourse on a different subject. However, I did manage to tease Komala about that wonderful video (http://www.tangovideoproject.com/cgi...TAGS=bandoneon) of her singing with the "Long Hairs" that bordertangoman linked to.

Thinking back to the stuff they've taught me over the years I think I can summarise at least Stefan's take on the use of the frame. During the first week we spent with K & S at Frayssinette (http://www.tangovalley.com/in_the_valley.html) Stefan used a wonderful analogy of holding a large, shallow wok full of water. You can allow the water to swirl around inside the wok but never permit it to lap over the edge. The frame is present and supportive but if you used your arms to move the wok independently of your body or in a jerky fashion then you'd cause a spill. Last summer he had us imagining that we were dancing in deep snow; you use your leading arm to sweep the snow out of the path of your follower, clearing a space for her to step into. The arm isn't generating the movement by pulling the follower, it's simply preceding her and creating a space for her to move into.

I love Stefan's descriptions; amongst other things they were teaching double-time backward ochos last night and Stefan likened the lead to herding a gaggle of ducklings! It was both effective and funny, particularly when he demonstrated it complete with clucking noises; Komala's face was a picture. It's too long to wait until next year's New Year Marathon at El Corte before seeing them again; we must try and get over for a chained salon or something in the autumn.

[Steve Pastor]

I usually wear those boring blue dress shirts when I dance tango, and sometimes black. I have a couple of colorful shirts that I wear in the summer, but summer here in Portland is only a few months.

More on propiorerception, this time from "Dance Spirit" magazine.
Words in parens are mine.

Proprioperception is largely unconscious.
Honing this sense can also improve your balance.
We learn more quickly and effectively when we pay attention to the feeling of new movement as well as what it looks like. You can detect changes in muscle length and joint angle and position (and balance). When the information from these sensors is combined, you have a clear picture of how your body is moving (or where it should move to).

[spectator]

I think a reason why it's good for followers to keep their eyes open even during classes: navigation and avoiding kicking people. It pisses me off when the follower to my side has her eyes shut and slashes my leg as she boleos or ganchos or the guy steps backwards on to my heel. I am always on the look out and constantly giving me partners signals not to step back etc cos I can see things he can't.

[Joe]

It's not her fault, it's her leader's fault.

[Peaches]

Yup.

I used to try and keep an eye out for other couples. The whole ballroom, squeeze of the left hand thing. I don't do that anymore.

Doesn't work so well for AT. People don't move in predictable ways. And it ticks off more leaders than it helps--I've had several guys ask me to stop. (Sorry, dude, just trying to be helpful. Sheesh.) So now...eyes closed. Navigation is his problem.

[spectator]

The follower controls the extent of her movement, if he leads a big boleo she can still make it smaller if she becomes aware of someone moving into the danger zone, same with a gancho, if she has see people enter their space she abort the step as soon as she feels the lead's leg.

I'm not talking about whispering in his ear "no not that way!" I'm talking about using your body, I can make myself heavy etc to slow or stop a step into disaster. You might call it backleading, I call it being active and present. Usually when I do this my partners seem quite happy about it - often impressed with themselves that they were sensitive to connection etc too. I have never had any complaints.

Also I need my eyes open when I do my embellishments to make sure I don't clip someones ankle. they aren't crazy Geraldine/Jennifer kicks and flicks b.t.w that's not my style.

[jhpark]

i'm always disappointed when my follow kicks someone and doesn't draw blood. i figure, what's the point of running into another couple if you're not going to the interaction a memorable one? ;)

[Twirly]

I don't think the follower should need to have her eyes open. But I think I would rarely do any boleos etc with my eyes closed, you still need to be aware that there are people around you. If I have my eyes open and I see that the leader is about to step onto another couple I do react, possibly with a bit of pressure with my left hand on his back, or just by making myself heavy as mentioned above. The leaders have been grateful so far.

I really, really hate it when I step on someone, it's awful. I can't relax if I don't feel that the leader will do his best to make sure this won't happen.

[Dave Bailey]

Whilst I appreciate any "eyes in back of head" type assistance, it's always - always - the leader's responsibility to look after the floorcraft side of things.

Ideally, the only thing followers should contribute to floorcraft is the "leg movement" judgements, as described previously.

If a leader can't keep a follower feeling safe and comfortable and protected during a dance, then what's the point? "First, do no harm"...

[Twirly]

I think we all agree on this. But unfortunately not all leaders are perfect at floor craft, so I would rather try to prevent an accident than not - IF I see it coming. But I don't want to keep my eyes open "just in case".

You're right, safety should come first.

[Gssh]

It's not her fault, it's her leader's fault.

Nah, the size fo adornos and boleos is the one thing that i am not willing to take responsiblity for. Imagine this scene: Tight dancefloor. We dance close embrace. There is a little stop, so i open the embrace a bit - and lead a tiny, tiny stepover. My follower kicks Geraldine style, swoops down, draws a huge circle, steps over, and adorns the step again with a big, hip high inside boleo. And of sometimes she'll hit somebody. *sigh* really not my fault. I mean, even when her eyes are closed she has some idea of how much space there is, and when i am leading boleos with only a tiny impulse, more like a ocho cortado energywise, and try to keep the whole thing grounded - no "lifting" at the apex-it would be nice if her boleos were small, and tight, and her foot didn't go above ankle hight. Thats one of the things i don't like about dancing milonga with some followers: we dance step,step,step - i throw in a boleo - and expect a sharp little accent, and it turns into an booooooooollllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeoooooooooo oo with an added inside boleo, and a kick, and some caressing of the own leg at the apex of the inside boleo, and then she collects.

Gssh



Gssh

[jfm]

Hey, it takes practice for leaders to get good at anticipating what people around them might do, so maybe it's good for them to have some help when they are learning?
If we left it entirely to the leader from the start, there would be dance floor carnage. I would love to be able to fully trust and feel safe dancing with a partner, but it isn't possible when someone is very new, I think it's important that everybody gives beginners a go, and if I suddenly got all precious about only dancing with people with excellent floorcraft I would never have had those fun, joyful dances with leaders who haven't learnt not to play with the music yet (you know how after few lessons people get so caught up in leading a giro or leading an ocho that they forget they are supposed to be dancing).

[Dave Bailey]

With regards to:
Hey, it takes practice for leaders to get good at anticipating what people around them might do, so maybe it's good for them to have some help when they are learninga?
and:
But unfortunately not all leaders are perfect at floor craft, so I would rather try to prevent an accident than not - IF I see it coming. But I don't want to keep my eyes open "just in case".
I'm going to be a little controversial here, and disagree :)

The arguments for followers "helping out" with floorcraft are very similar to the arguments for followers "helping out" leaders trying to lead the moves. In both cases, I see it as backleading - yes, it may help in the short term, but in the longer term the leaders aren't learning to do their job properly.

So, I think that backleading floorcraft is - in the long run - as bad as any other backleading.

If we left it entirely to the leader from the start, there would be dance floor carnage.
I'm a complete novice in AT, but none of the followers I've danced with have felt the need to assist me in traffic management.

I would love to be able to fully trust and feel safe dancing with a partner, but it isn't possible when someone is very new,
Unfortunately, I think that is true, but I also think that leaders need to learn sometimes by making mistakes. Of course, I'm not suggesting you deliberately injure yourself to make a point.

But it's like children learning to walk - sometimes you have to accept that the little darlings may run into a wall, to make them understand how to do it right.


EDIT: Woo! I'm an Artisan! Is that good?

[Peaches]

Uh...maybe don't close your eyes if you don't feel safe with a comparative beginner.

But when they guy is competent enough, and you feel safe enough, then let yourself relax. Just keep in mind the dynamics of the floor. Don't go boleo-ing and adorno-ing all over the place, nice and big, when you know the floor is crowded? Likewise, don't go throwing in dangerous stuff if it hasn't been led?

If it has been led, and you follow it, and unwanted contact ocurrs, then it's the guy's fault.

[spectator]

Dave, I think you may have confused jfm and twirly, I'm not sure you've understood what we mean. We are NOT backleading! We are making the decision whether to accept your invitation or not and we are using our awareness of our surroundings to do it. It is not us leading you it is us reponding to your lead by telling you with our bodies that we don't want to do that.

I am not going to let myself be lead into someone else or into a chair for the sake of their learning. What do you want? to dance with someone who blindly follows and doesn't take equal responsibility for the dance? In your words "what's the point?"

[Peaches]

Uh...I wasn't responding to anyone in particular. Just general musing on the subject...

[spectator]

Sorry was typing at Dave but you got in there first!

I do agree that if the leader is competent we should leav him to it and we can also play our part by holding back on the flicky kicky stuff. However a lot of leaders who reckon they are "intermediate" tango dancers have **** navigation skills. Am still pissed off about the guy who cut me down with an ill judged planeo on Saturday night. Got my right in the ankle and i went down like a puppet with it's strings cut. Didn't apologise though. Just carried on on his own merry way leading vulcadas and ramming people like the cock that he obviously is.

[Steve Pastor]

"So, I think that backleading floorcraft is - in the long run - as bad as any other backleading."
Disagree.
Although the partnership regarding how and where you move is unequal, it is a partnership. I welcome input from my partners, not only regarding where we go next, but how we move and what we do.
It's not just lead and follow.

Artisan? These little labels we are assigned are merely a measure of how prolific we are.

[Twirly]

I don't want to physically hurt anybody. Once I stepped on a girl's foot so badly she had to leave the dance floor. I'd hate for the leader to do the same just because I didn't do something to stop it. Even if it means he'll learn a bit slower. Then again, I can always huff and puff about it to him a little, so he knows it's not really acceptable.

In my experience, it's definitely not just beginners. There are some people who even consider themselves "advanced" who find it a lot more interesting focusing on their own adornos than worrying about other people. Yes, even leaders.

By the way, I don't consider boleos adornos - to me they should always be lead, including their intensity. So again, leader's responsibility (and the follower's to follow - with the choice of doing a smaller move if they're not sure of what's behind them).

[bordertangoman]

With regards to:


I'm a complete novice in AT, but none of the followers I've danced with have felt the need to assist me in traffic management.
?


Were you in an empty room? Seriuosly as we do not have 180 degree vision the responsiblity of not bumping into other dancers is shared. I don't have a problem with a follower applying the brakes if she sees someone close by that I don't and there will be the occasion when two couples head for the same empty space.

I've even been bumped into when I was the teacher in the middle of the room! LOL
( but they paid dearly for that!)

[Dave Bailey]

Dave, I think you may have confused jfm and twirly, I'm not sure you've understood what we mean.
Very possibly, on both counts :)

I am not going to let myself be lead into someone else or into a chair for the sake of their learning.
Sure - which is why I explicitly said "Of course, I'm not suggesting you deliberately injure yourself to make a point." - did you miss that bit?

What do you want? to dance with someone who blindly follows and doesn't take equal responsibility for the dance? In your words "what's the point?"
Sorry, but I don't think followers don't have equal responsibility for the dance - at least not as far as things like floorcraft are concerned.

Whilst I'm not an advocate of the simplistic "It's always the leader's fault if it goes wrong" school of thought, there is a lot of truth in that statement, at least as a first approximation - it's a very useful "lie-to-children" for beginners I think.

[Dave Bailey]

"So, I think that backleading floorcraft is - in the long run - as bad as any other backleading."
Disagree.
Told you it was controversial :)

Although the partnership regarding how and where you move is unequal, it is a partnership. I welcome input from my partners, not only regarding where we go next, but how we move and what we do.
It's not just lead and follow.
I think there are a lot of complex interactions at work, but I still think in the very basic parts of floorcraft (i.e. not causing harm), it's very much the leader's responsibility to not (as the saying goes) be a "cock" on the dancefloor.

Artisan? These little labels we are assigned are merely a measure of how prolific we are.
Is there a table somewhere? I know, I'm sad that way... :D

[Dave Bailey]

Were you in an empty room?
I've not been in very-busy venues, they'd scare the bejeesus out of me, and I've deliberately avoided too-crowded venues, partially because I know my AT floorcraft isn't good enough to guarantee* safety.

So possibly one aspect of floorcraft is judging when you can dance safely :)

* Yes, I know there are no guarantees, but this is a relative judgement.

Seriuosly as we do not have 180 degree vision the responsiblity of not bumping into other dancers is shared. I don't have a problem with a follower applying the brakes if she sees someone close by that I don't and there will be the occasion when two couples head for the same empty space.
The thing is, if leaders depend on followers "helping out", they never develop that xxx-degree awareness that's required in social partner dancing.

In Salsa, West Coast Swing and Modern Jive venues, leaders actually need 360-degree awareness, as there's no line-of-dance protocol. In addition, people are generally moving much quicker, with more momentum, and sometimes you even get the odd idiot doing aerials on a social dance floor.

By comparison, I imagine the injury rate in AT is quite low - although having said that, the ladies' heels are probably more dangerous... - and I imagine you usually don't need more than 270-degree awareness because you're moving forward most of the time?

[Joe]

Nah, the size of adornos and boleos is the one thing that i am not willing to take responsiblity for.
If you leave a follower an option to do something, and she decides do something that hurts someone else when she had the option to do something else, then sure, it's not your fault. Not entirely, anyway. If you knew there was some danger there, you shouldn't have given her the option of doing it.

[Dave Bailey]

If you leave a follower an option to do something, and she decides do something that hurts someone else when she had the option to do something else, then sure, it's not your fault. Not entirely, anyway. If you knew there was some danger there, you shouldn't have given her the option of doing it.
Adornos, fair enough - if the follower just randomly decides to swing her stiletto-clad foot around because she's bored or something, there's not much you can do avout it.

But from what I understand of boleos, aren't they mainly led? Including the energy put into them? I assume the follower can "amplify" or "dampen" the energy as she sees fit, so if you lead a tiny boleo and she amplifies it greatly, then she bears some responsibility for any problems - but you (the leader) are still the one leading a boleo in a crowded dance floor, and you should have allowed a safety margin, just in case.

And if you lead a high-energy boleo, and the follower does a high-energy boleo, and it causes problems, then that's pretty much 100% your fault I think. Yes, it's nice if the woman spotted disaster and averted it for you - but she shouldn't feel any obligation to do so, and it's certainly not her fault if she doesn't.

Does that make sense?

[Twirly]

Yes, it's nice if the woman spotted disaster and averted it for you - but she shouldn't feel any obligation to do so, and it's certainly not her fault if she doesn't.

Exactly.

[Dave Bailey]

Look, we're never going to get anywhere in AT if we all start agreeing with each other and being gratuitously reasonable you know... :rolleyes:

[Gssh]

Adornos, fair enough - if the follower just randomly decides to swing her stiletto-clad foot around because she's bored or something, there's not much you can do avout it.

But from what I understand of boleos, aren't they mainly led? Including the energy put into them? I assume the follower can "amplify" or "dampen" the energy as she sees fit, so if you lead a tiny boleo and she amplifies it greatly, then she bears some responsibility for any problems - but you (the leader) are still the one leading a boleo in a crowded dance floor, and you should have allowed a safety margin, just in case.

And if you lead a high-energy boleo, and the follower does a high-energy boleo, and it causes problems, then that's pretty much 100% your fault I think. Yes, it's nice if the woman spotted disaster and averted it for you - but she shouldn't feel any obligation to do so, and it's certainly not her fault if she doesn't.

Does that make sense?

This is exactly how i have been taught, too. I just had experienced this a few nights before, and i am still unhappy about it - i don't like hurting people. I think small boleos are the perfect option for tight dancefloors: they feel nice, they need less space than even an ocho, you are not taking up space that you didn't use before (like e.g. with an ocho cortado). So i really, really like leading them, and they work most of the time. But when the follower thinks "ah, he just marked a boleo, let me do the stage perfect huge move i practiced for so long", then the energy of my lead does not do anything. I think there is an inherent contradiction between "boleos are just dangling, relaxed legs" and "boleos are a well practiced set move". In a way it is like ochos - there are some followers who just auto-ocho, and others who like it being lead step by step. I am completely responsible for my lead, but i think the follower is also somewhat responsible for their interpretation of my lead.

Gssh