What Would You Do?

[Dancebug]

We are in a situation where we’d rather not like to be. I post this just to see what others would do if they were in our shoes.

There is a female pro. Let’s call her Jen. Jen comes to our town about once a month for lessons. The lessons are organized by her pro/am student, Tom. Because we heard that she was a good coach and also Tom encouraged us, we asked for a lesson one day. So we had one lesson with her. We thought it was Ok, and we wanted to have more lessons to find out what else we could get out from her. The next time when she came back to town, she brought her new partner. Even though we made it clear to Tom that we would like to have more lessons with her, Tom suggested that we have a lesson with her new partner. He was trying to get some students for her new partner because he was less known than Jen and did not have enough students to teach. We told Tom at this time we had rather stick with Jen, even though we might take some lessons with Jen’s partner. He told us that Jen was booked, so we said then next time.

Guess what? We have never been called back when Jen is back in town. Sometimes when she comes alone and is not booked, Tom never calls us any longer. Ok, that would be fine if she does not often judge us at comps we go to, but she does. We found that she often judges us badly. We could be offending her by doing some wrong with our dancing. Or she is pissed off by us. She might be wondering why we never ask for more lessons with her. Knowing Tom is not a nice human being (he gossips a lot and always says negative things about dancers except his goddess, Jen), we do wonder what he could have said about us. Talking directly to her does not seem possible.

We could ignore the whole thing and just work harder to improve our dancing because there are lots of excellent coaches other than Jen. But then there is this nagging feeling and wondering: what are we doing wrong in Jen’s eyes? Is she just pissed off? We don’t even know if she is a fair person. So what would you do?

[samina]

find out how to contact her directly through her studio, or wherever she regularly teaches. say how much you've missed your opportunities to study with her when she is in town, and that you want to be sure to be able to get some time with her the next time she's around. "would you be sure to let us know when that is? we've really missed our time with you".

if tom finds out you've bypassed him & asks about it, just be nice & say you were never called for more time with her & missed her lessons, and wanted to be sure you got time with her next time.

done! :)

[Ithink]

Weirdly enough, I think I know who you're talking about, especially if you're from MD...

I would try to contact "Jen" on your own and ask her to notify you when she's coming to town. Tell her that, while in the past you were contacted by Tom, he hasn't called you the last few times she was in town. Tell her you want lessons with her (i.e. you want to pay her $$!!) and you want to know when she's in town.

For her sake, I hope Jen isn't using this supposed "incident" to mark you down at comps and that her problem is your dancing, not your decision not to take from her partner that one time. Otherwise, she is not a very professional judge....

[Sagitta]

First of all I wonder why a large font was chosen. If it could be changed to the usual sized font it would be easier on my eyes.

Next why do you feel you cannot talk to Jen if you see her around? IF you really cannot do you know of someone else who could, for you?

I would find a way to talk to Jen, if it was me.

[LucyDiamond]

Ditto what others have said, talk directly to Jen.

[Me]

The below is written strictly based on your narrative - I have no idea who you might be talking about. (Yes, what I wrote is nasty.)

What should you do? Pool your resources and fly somebody else in to coach - there are plenty of qualified professionals out there who will not resort to such parent-to-child psychological mind games.

If "Jen" is snubbing you guys, the last thing you should do is give her money. That is petty, unprofessional behavior and should tell you, right off, she is not the coach for you. In fact, I question her true qualifications as a coach based on her behavior. If she's slumming for money for her partner and using her amateur partner to do so, is she really that good? Is she a qualified coach, or does her amateur partner 'Tom' talk her up?

Not wanting to pay her dead-rat partner money for lessons is your choice. It is your money - Not hers! Not the studio owners, either! Do not let them tell you how to spend your money by allowing their petty alienation to hurt you.

Organizing coachings is time consuming and there will be politics, but if you want other options, sometimes you have to create them yourself!

[yanka]

I have no information here, but I'll bet that any snobbery is coming from "Tom" - he may have been offended that you didn't want lessons, and then just never bothered with you guys again.

My understanding of visiting coaches is that bc they're out-of-towners, they have no idea who wants lessons and who doesn't - they have someone set up all the lessons for them so they don't have to worry about it (partly bc the local contact has more info about who may want lessons) - in this case, Tom. They'll teach whoever's on the schedule and not spend any time wondering about the people who aren't on the schedule.

If you're getting marked down by the judge, it's probably a legitimate difference of styles, which makes it (IMO) even more worthwhile to try to book some lessons with her.

Basically, my point is that given that she only met you guys once, I don't think she cares one way or another about you. I would either approach Tom again and clarify that you'd like to take lessons with her next time she comes or contact her directly to tell her.

[given that Tom can't actually hurt you in any way (gossip is just gossip), I'd try talking to him, since he's the one making the schedule]

[quixotedlm]

A persons character is reflected by who they associate with, and who their friends are.

Tom is Jen's am partner. More than that, Tom is a trusted partner with the freedom (and power) to organize her coachings. Tom is her associate. So feel free to judge Jen by Tom's character.

[Me]

A persons character is reflected by who they associate with, and who their friends are.

Tom is Jen's am partner. More than that, Tom is a trusted partner with the freedom (and power) to organize her coachings. Tom is her associate. So feel free to judge Jen by Tom's character.


Agreed.

[samina]

why jump to conclusions about people's character & motivations? there may be nothing amiss here at all but a bucketful of rapid assumptions... if DB establishes direction contact and schedules a block of time with the coach, she can ask a few pointed questions herself and find out the skinny.

may be much ado about nothing.

[quixotedlm]

why jump to conclusions about people's character & motivations? there may be nothing amiss here at all but a bucketful of rapid assumptions... if DB establishes direction contact and schedules a block of time with the coach, she can ask a few pointed questions herself and find out the skinny.

may be much ado about nothing.

I agree.

Doesn't mean I'm changing my mind about what I said before - I agree with both what I said and what Samina is saying.

[Kitty]

too many conclusions and assumptions...

I would just call Tom and remind him that I'd like some lessons in case the coach is in town again... he might have just forgotten to call you last time... or wasn't sure you were interested... or maybe the first 3 people he asked booked everything and he didnt' have any lessons left in the schedule... so he didnt' call you...

as i understand he is not paid or anything to do this. this is not a job, and he is not required to give equal chances at lessons... all he wants is to fully book the coach when he invites her to teach him... if there were extra unbooked lessons in the schedule, he would have definitely remebered you cause he wouldnt' want the coach to be underbooked... probably slots just fill up too quickly..

and thinkning that after taking 1 lesson, and then not taking few more times she visits town will affect her judging is just silly. I'd be surprised if she remembers your name...

[waltzgirl]

Had she ever judged you before you took the lesson with her? If so, has her marking of you changed since you turned down the lesson with her partner?

[Kitty]

Had she ever judged you before you took the lesson with her? If so, has her marking of you changed since you turned down the lesson with her partner?

I think this is not even relevant because dancebug's dancing or dancebug's competitors dancing might have changed since then..

[waltzgirl]

I think this is not even relevant because dancebug's dancing or dancebug's competitors dancing might have changed since then..

But if her marking didn't change, that would make it clear the problem is with Tom, not the coach.

Of course it depends on the size of the field and whether db dances consistently against the same people, but IME, the same judges either like or don't like my dancing regardless of the level I've been at.

[quixotedlm]

ot questions -

are judges required to not have any conflict of interests? for eg, are they not supposed to be a pro in a pro/am partnership, or are they not supposed to be teachers of (potential) contestants?

[Me]

ot questions -

are judges required to not have any conflict of interests? for eg, are they not supposed to be a pro in a pro/am partnership, or are they not supposed to be teachers of (potential) contestants?


Quix, pardon my thorny demeanor - it isn't directed toward you by any means. My response to your statement is - It seems everybody wants to be and/or calls themselves judge or at least claim to be "coaching" these days. Maybe it's an old game, but I know many people like to cruise into town on the coattails of a money client and claim they're the messiah of dancesport.

Unfortunately it is up to us to shovel through the *edited* to find the REAL pros. My instinct is poor dancebug has a lemon, and I feel very sorry for her.

Dancebug,

How credible is this erm, Jen? Have you and other dancers done some research? Made some calls? Just to make sure this isn't some presumptuous up-start? The real coaches/judges I have met would not behave this way. Not to sound like I'm giving a backhanded compliment, but these guys have so many clients they don't have the time of day to become miffed at those who don't throw money at them.

[quixotedlm]

i don't mind your response Me. i'm not part of this competitive world - so i don't have any urge to take it personally :)

mmm.. it was a real question, born out of ignorance.

[tanya_the_dancer]

ot questions -

are judges required to not have any conflict of interests? for eg, are they not supposed to be a pro in a pro/am partnership, or are they not supposed to be teachers of (potential) contestants?

As far as I understand, they cannot judge and compete pro/am in the same competition.

[quixotedlm]

As far as I understand, they cannot judge and compete pro/am in the same competition.

can they judge their own students, or students who train with their associates (associate = direct/indirect financial ties in the context of dancing)

[yanka]

can they judge their own students, or students who train with their associates (associate = direct/indirect financial ties in the context of dancing)

I think the only limitation is judging a family member or your own partner, but I could be wrong.

[tanya_the_dancer]

can they judge their own students, or students who train with their associates (associate = direct/indirect financial ties in the context of dancing)

Yes they can. And I have taken coaching from several judges, who have judged me in the past and after I have taken coaching from them, so I know it is not an issue. The only other constraint I heard about is that the competition organizer cannot compete in it with his students, but he can have someome else dance with his students, but I am not 100% sure about the details.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I think the only limitation is judging a family member or your own partner, but I could be wrong.

Interesting. What about a situation when you have pro-am competition and the judge is related to the pro half but since (s)he is supposed to judge the am half only, is it OK?

[waltzgirl]

can they judge their own students, or students who train with their associates (associate = direct/indirect financial ties in the context of dancing)

Yes, they can judge anybody, as long as they aren't dancing with them at the same comp. In fact, it's a regular thing for people to "make the rounds" of the judges they see frequently to take some lessons and hope to get marked better by that judge. For some, it's in the honest hope of learning something that judge finds lacking in their dancing and for some, it's mostly a political ploy.

[quixotedlm]

i'm surprised by the (IMO) lax conflict of interest guidelines. when i was interviewing for a job, i had an trainee-interviewer sit-in one of my interviews. I knew him from a past school (he was way senior to me then, but we had be cordial to each and other knew one another thru common friends/acquaintances, and then completely lost touch for several years). He excused himself from the interview, because we both agreed that it might be a conflict - that he might be either favoring me, or be too critical because he was trying too hard to be impartial. Either way, he didn't score me on the interview. I'm used to this type of self-imposed standards - so what y'all are saying is surprising.

But then, I don't have enough cultural context to say that it can't work. maybe it does work :)

[waltzgirl]

I don't know about working--there's lots of complaining about politics in dancesport--but it's kind of a practical necessity they way the economics of it are now structured. I don't think judging pays enough that anyone could make a living from judging alone, so they all teach. Since the people they teach are competitors, it would be a logistical nightmare, probably not even doable, to try to schedule the judges so that no one judged anyone they had ever taught.

I've taken very occasional lessons from three judges, not for political reasons, but because they were local or visiting coaches my pro respects and thought we could learn something from. Being me, I always assumed that I would get harsher marks from them because they would be expecting me to do what they taught me very well and I might not be. But I think I did benefit from up-marking from one judge. I'd like to think it was because I was doing what he taught well, but who knows?

[fascination]

I have found it best to never have hard feelings or make assumptions, but rather, to make decisions that are what I percieve to be in the best interest of my dancing getting better...I am not in control of what any coach or judge does...I try to have as many and as varied coachings as I can afford, and I try to have the ones I like come back...I do their comps if my schedule allows, but sometimes I also want to try new ones...I cannot lay in bed at night and worry about what is going to happen to me as a result of that...I hope that they will be professional...and I try to do the same...beyond that, IMO, it serves no useful purpose to ruminate over it overly much...I can say that if I was aware that without a doubt I was deliberately being punished, it would only deepen my resolve, not prompt me to cater to something silly...lastly, if I found something really unsettling I would do as others have suggested and ask the coach or judge if there was something I should be doing differently

[Hearts]

If your from MD i know who your talking about. I had a similiar thing happen. Just contact "Jen" by email or phone and explain the situation with "Tom". I did it and havent had a problem since.

[fascination]

let me also respectfully request that we lean away form geographical specifiicty beyond the current amount other than via p.m's ....thanks