The Music Speaks

[Pacion]

Another interesting item from Edie's e-newsletter :D
The Music Speaks
by Betto Herrera (http://www.mambodinamico.com/)
Going to a ‘Salsa Club’ the first thing that makes an impact is the great upbeat music that is playing. The girls are spinning back and forth and adding their sensual style to the dancing while the guys are looking cool and smooth leading the ladies into crazy turn patterns. Then a new song comes up, this one is mellow and romantic, but it’s still considered a ‘Salsa’ beat. The weird thing is that even though the style of the ‘Salsa’ music has changed, the dancing style hasn’t. The ladies are still doing all the spinning while the gentlemen are leading their intricate partner work. So what’s wrong with this picture?

Someone might say, “one was a fast ‘Salsa’, and the other was a slow ‘Salsa’”. But what is ‘Salsa’ dancing? Is there a dance called ‘Salsa’? Is there a rhythm called ‘Salsa’? People like Tito Puente and Celia Cruz used to say that ‘Salsa’ is not a new music and that they played old Cuban rhythms with a new sound. Salsa is a term used by Fania Records in the 70’s to market a number of Latin rhythms (especially Cuban and Puerto Rican) in New York City and later the world. These different rhythms included Son, Son Montuno, Guajira, Guaracha, Chacha, Cumbia, Bomba, Monzambique, Pachanga, Descarga, Mambo and a few others. Each of these rhythms projects different feelings to the dancers, and their movements would reflect just those ‘feelings’.

Nowadays, new compositions include some of the aforementioned rhythms within the same song. The famous Celia Cruz song titled “La Vida Es Un Carnaval” is a perfect example. The introduction of the song is a Cumbia, the climax being a Mambo, and the ending is a Cumbia once again. Next time this song is played, pay attention to the dancers and see that most of them continue with the same dancing style even after the rhythm has changed.

The ‘Salsa’ Rhythms are such a complex field to be understood by beginner students and actually advanced dancers are the ones who start hearing the difference(s) between each rhythm and adjust accordingly. The key to understand ‘Salsa’ is to stop hearing and start listening closely to the music. After paying close attention, some notorious differences will be visible (or better said audible) like the speed or tempo of the music, for example. Then begins the understanding of the different styles, like the Jazzy sound that includes strong brass presence and no lyrics, the Charanga sound that has the violin and flute predominance, etc.

Some ‘Salsa’ dance instructors know about the different rhythms and the way to dance each one of them or how to adapt to each of them. Instructors teach all the steps that are needed, but it’s up to the student-dancer to use them right. I.E. the Back Basic Step is the basic for the Son and Cumbia, the side basic step is the basic for the Rumba-Yambu or Guaguanco.

A common question from beginner and intermediate students is “When are ‘Shines’ used?” The most common answers are “when you feel it” or “when the music tells you to”; however, the answer is a little bit more complex than that. ‘Shines’ or solo-footwork are the way dancers have found to preserve the Afro-Element of this dance. Africans did not involve any type of partner work (i.e. turn patterns) in their dance; also, their music was mainly percussive by using different types of drums. With this piece of knowledge, the correct answer should be, “when the percussion section occurs in the music.” Understanding the history and tradition will help understanding the music and dance.

A great music teacher once advised his talented student that to play one of the most difficult piano solos ever composed, the student must learn all the notes and practice them day and night, and once he is ready to perform, he must forget about reading the music sheet and play the notes by heart. Following the same advice, to be able to ‘Dance’ one must learn all the proper steps and techniques. Then after acquiring enough practice, experience and confidence, let the music speak through you, follow its lead and dance from the heart.

[tangotime]

have been preaching this for more yrs than you care to know ( in all the genres I teach ).

There are numerous recordings where the musical rhythms change from salsa to cumbia or bolero or guajira-- and yes-- most do not even know the difference ( include latinos among that group ).

It begs the question why ?-- simple answer, -- the majority of " teachers ? " , do not understand it , so how can they possibly pass it on !!

[Pacion]

It begs the question why ?-- simple answer, -- the majority of " teachers ? " , do not understand it , so how can they possibly pass it on !!

Personally, whilst I do hold "teachers" accountable for many things - dance as well as those in the educational system - I also hold the student accountable as well: Ask questions; listen to the music; after a certain period of time, don't regergitate what you have learnt, but experiment; be open to other kinds of music; listen to other kinds of music/genres including those within salsa itself; if finances allow, go to dance shows; step out of your 'comfort zone'.

I have listened to a variety of music partially by choice, partially because I had no choice in 'my parents house' :lol:.

A while back I wrote here on DF that I would hear a salsa song and instead of salsa, I wanted to do tango steps! Do I know how to tango? No, other than some ballroom tango classes I did several years ago, and not much do I remember! But, it didn't stop my body somehow, wanting to do tango steps. My fellow DFers kindly responded and gave me 'permission' to do what my body/ear was telling me. :lol:

So today, when salsa is mixing:

hip hop
reggaeton
samba
merengue
bachata
arabic influences
tango (I think Tito Puento has a mambo which incorporates tango?)
classical musicstudents/dancers should be alert to this. How do they become alert? By listening to the music... even if they do not know what it is, at least, to notice (hear or feel) there is something 'different'.

(Aventura has a song which mixes punjabi with bachata, Un Chi Chi. I am not aware of the Dominican Republic having an Indian population or influences from India but, they have incoporated it in a bachata.)

[tangotime]

The salsa with tango you are thinking about--- Tito Rojas .

I would take somewhat of an issue, placing the burden of " knowledge ", on the student. There are many more relevant issues to deal with at the beginners level.

If I had ( and still do not ) taught musicality in too early a stage , then the problems they are already encompassed with, would get even more bogged down .
Students have to be at a stage in their learning when they can comprehend the subleties that lie within the piece,and most dont stay the course to reach that level of understanding, and start to pick up bad habits from the less informed .

I have trained hundreds of teachers over the yrs, and even they do not come to terms with the concept readily .

I think we are getting a bit off track here. The issue is more towards the incapabilities of many teachers .

Of course , in any given group, there will be people with more perception , and many do not like to ask in depth questions ( or shallow ones !! )
The problem that the writer had observed, is not unique, and having taught all over the world, it is , unfortunately universal .

Herein is what I believe to be a major factor, in perpetuating the " flash and trash " brigade.
Many come into classes with pre conceived notions on how to emulate the performance side of the genre, not realising that it has nothing to do with the social aspect-- this most certainly comes from those who promote that aspect and nothing else .

I see it on my travels just about every where. There are even ads looking for people who want to perform ( beginners , no less !! )
In one certain city in the states where I lived, the majority of the " latino " salsero/as , were driven out by the exhibitionist types .

Want to make this clear-- I am not against performing, and or any of the " tricks " that people wish to learn, I just believe, they many times ,do not belong in a social environment.

[Sagitta]

Well if you ever go to NYC check out...
NYDIA OCASIO

One of the few who teach people to dance vs steps. I disagree with the idea that students need to learn how to listen. Instructors need to show the students and Nydia does agreat job at that, so others can too.


The music does speak to me. Though I may not know the particular genre..e.g.yambu or guaguanco for rumba/cumbia/mambo...I do recognize the change in a song and adjust to reflect that. One also must adjust for a partner. Therefore I can do the same moves in two subsequent very different songs and have them reflect the music. I guess one could argue if executed differently a move may morph into something new and is no longer the original move...though.

[Pacion]

The salsa with tango you are thinking about--- Tito Rojas .

I would take somewhat of an issue, placing the burden of " knowledge ", on the student. There are many more relevant issues to deal with at the beginners level.

Hopefully, one does not remain a beginner forever ;). Tangotime, at the risk of beating dead wood, we know that a 'common' fault of dancers is that they dance the same speed and same moves irrespective of the song. Intermediate dancers and upwards ideally should start taking more responsibility for their 'learning'. This applies in everything, this also applies in life. Whether the teacher is to be held accountable for promoting/not promoting this, is another matter. The 'problem' with this, is that we can also agree that there are some teachers who are better than others and some who shouldn't even use the title of teacher... but, that is one of the by-products of salsa being what it is.

By the way, you only have to look (via the internet) at the workshops organised at congressess - how many have tabled and publicised musicality/history of salsa workshops? As Macmoto wrote about the Gothenburg congress held recently, one was organised, not well publicised according to her experience and... not well attended either, for whatever reason (scheduling, clashes, tiredness etc). Therefore, the likes of Albert Torres and others before him, including Eileen Torres (no relation) could host musicality workshops with wonderful information and video footage. But, how do you get the bums on seats? The students/attendees have to put them there...

[tj]

Therefore, the likes of Albert Torres and others before him, including Eileen Torres (no relation) could host musicality workshops with wonderful information and video footage. But, how do you get the bums on seats? The students/attendees have to put them there...
If I might chime in here...

but what if the average student isn't ready/isn't interested in the subject matter? It's quite possible that people in the past have already voted with their $$, and there's not enough interest within the dance community to regularly have such a class?

I'd be wary that the average student might not be able to comprehend and therefore lose interest.

[tangotime]

t.j.- SOOOOOOOOOO TRUE !!!

Have tried -- in vain--to promote a better understanding. How to resolve the problem, is the q that has baffled many teachers, for many yrs.

I think there may be some merit, in the thought, that the majority of students want instant dancing .

Just reflecting back on my last yrs classes , and I had some very large groups, 3 maybe 4 people, showed any interest beyond being socially adequate-- and ya know-- thats o.k.
This is also true in my Ballroom classes .
Its a sign of the times .

[tj]

Yeah, what I'm thinking is that your average dancer, isn't as hardcore about the finer details like those of us here on the Forums are.

For the majority, it's just a casual hobby, and they aren't serious enough about it to want to learn those details. I mean, when the average dancer doesn't even know the majority of the artists/bands who are playing the songs that they dance to every week, are they really going to show interest in learning more? (If anything, the majority need work on just staying on beat and not crashing into other couples, lol!)

[Pacion]

If I might chime in here

...what if I said no, you can't. :tongue:


For the majority, it's just a casual hobby, and they aren't serious enough about it to want to learn those details. I mean, when the average dancer doesn't even know the majority of the artists/bands who are playing the songs that they dance to every week

A non hardcore salsa dancer exists? :shock: :lol: I can't claim to know the majority of the artists/bands either, although, I have a fairly good ear and can take a good guess based either on the voice or 'a signature' in the song that gives away who the singer is (eg. Celia Cruz and ¡Azúcar!). But, even if I don't know who the artist/band is, I can hear the change in tempo (hopefully it is reflected in my feet :lol:) and the change in music style. Am slowly starting to pick out son, but it is sloooowww.

[tj]

...what if I said no, you can't.

Lol, then we'd have a "moderator war"? :wink:


A non hardcore salsa dancer exists? I can't claim to know the majority of the artists/bands either, although, I have a fairly good ear and can take a good guess based either on the voice or 'a signature' in the song that gives away who the singer is (eg. Celia Cruz and ¡Azúcar!). But, even if I don't know who the artist/band is, I can hear the change in tempo (hopefully it is reflected in my feet ) and the change in music style. Am slowly starting to pick out son, but it is sloooowww.
I think the key is to approach the subject on the practical/pragmatic side. Demonstrating how knowledge of tempo/styles/changes can improve one's dancing. But this probably needs to be dished out in small amounts.

It's probably akin to salt. Absolutely necessary, but too much ruins the dish for most folk.

[Pacion]

Lol, then we'd have a "moderator war"? :wink:

See you on the dancefloor at dawn then! :lol:

Oh no! Not salt! Rarely cook with/add salt. Hmmm... may I use the analogy of onions instead please? ;)

[tj]

See you on the dancefloor at dawn then!
Armed with stilleto heels? (Darn, maybe I can go find someone's that I can borrow...)


Oh no! Not salt! Rarely cook with/add salt. Hmmm... may I use the analogy of onions instead please? ;)
Actually, that makes the analogy fit better - adding salt isn't for everyone. :wink: (I suppose the same can be said about onions. And also I bet there's "hidden" amounts of salt in a lot of packaged sauces, soups, spice mixes, etc.)

[tj]

Lol - just thought I'd mention that Betto signed up on DF... (wave)

[dancin/dj]

Always a good post, Musicality.Gee i wish more teachers and students would read/find, dance forums.i see the same thing also in hustle here in the east,people doing patterns all night long, too songs, that are changing in meter/colors/timing/beats etc... and (most of the dancers beg&and advanced) are still doing the same thing..

[quixotedlm]

These different rhythms included Son, Son Montuno, Guajira, Guaracha, Chacha, Cumbia, Bomba, Monzambique, Pachanga, Descarga, Mambo and a few others

Besides Carnaval, is there another track that covers all of the said rhythms? If not, can you give me some examples of songs that cover these rhythm types?

Anyone care to identify parts of Carnaval and the corresponding rhythms?

Also, what are the 'few others' ?

[tangotime]

Plena , Charanga, and Danzon , spring to mind .

[betto]

"La Vida es Un Carnaval" by Celia Cruz structure is like so: Cumbia, Mambo, Cumbia, the changes are pretty obvious and if you listen to the track you will hear and feel the changes. This is why I chose this song as an example, and it is a plus plus that it's extremely popular.
There are a lot of songs specially under the Fania label that combine different rhythms with in the same track. The whole thing about the article is for the reader(s) to become interested in playing closer attention to the different musical arrangements of each song.
A few others can be Conga, Orisha rhythms, Columbia, Yambu, Aguinaldo etc




Besides Carnaval, is there another track that covers all of the said rhythms? If not, can you give me some examples of songs that cover these rhythm types?

Anyone care to identify parts of Carnaval and the corresponding rhythms?

Also, what are the 'few others' ?

[tangotime]

Also, what are the 'few others' ?

Forgot to mention I have several that change rhythms-- will try dig some up tomorrow ( can can confuse the hell out of you , if you dont know its coming )

[quixotedlm]

The whole thing about the article is for the reader(s) to become interested in playing closer attention to the different musical arrangements of each song.
A few others can be Conga, Orisha rhythms, Columbia, Yambu, Aguinaldo etc

Having been listening almost exclusively to latin music in the last 2 years (with some exceptions) whenever I do listen to music (car, work etc), I can feel the changes most of the time pretty well, sometimes even anticipate it. But I can't put a name to the different rhythms I 'feel' and it would be nice to be able to do so. That's why I'm asking :)


Edit -

Betto - Welcome to DF!!! :)

[tangotime]

Quix--- if its any consolation--have seen many times , d,js " slip in " a Cumbia, in a true latino club , and many STILL dance salsa .( not the colombians ) .

Cumbia is distinctive by its " pulse " rhythm, something akin to a samba. In fact, the basic is a modified samba balancete ( samba whisk )

[sweavo]

Also don't forget - you don't need the names of the rhythms to be able to feel and interpret the music. Just switch off and allow the music to conjure images in your head.

However, for those who are interested, some older albums have the rhythm next to the song track on the sleeve. Also, congahead productions do a bunch of DvDs for latin percussionists that talk about the different rhythmic styles.

[betto]

But I can't put a name to the different rhythms I 'feel' and it would be nice to be able to do so. That's why I'm asking :)

That's A LOT OF information. The best way to learn about it is by (as someone mentioned before) buy old records (CD's) that have the rhythm type right next to the name of the track. I know Jimmy Bosch was doing that for his albums.
Also ask musicians about the rhythms that were mentioned here, they will be able to explain to you and point out the difference(s). It took me a couple of years to be able to pick them out. The hardest thing is to train the ear, after that everything is riding down hill.
Betto - Welcome to DF!!! :)
Thanks you and the others for the warm welcome!

[tangotime]

Quix.-- here are a couple of songs that change " pace " -------

Julio " el Gitano "--- Alfredo de la fe and Canario, on " Salsa en la Decima Avenida NY 07 " Starts off with strong Cumbia and then moves into a salsa with Charanga backing.

Heres one from Bachata to a Salsa---- Kike Harvey-- " La Isla Bonita " album .

Bachatas Song .

[quixotedlm]

thanks for the info all. i'll try to hunt down older records now... i do know some salsa-band musicians... maybe chat them up :)

[Sabor]

i heard music really speaks in swahili ..

pacion.. in your case i think its just voices in your head

[tj]

"La Vida es Un Carnaval" by Celia Cruz structure is like so: Cumbia, Mambo, Cumbia, the changes are pretty obvious and if you listen to the track you will hear and feel the changes. This is why I chose this song as an example, and it is a plus plus that it's extremely popular.

So if I'm understanding this right, I think the transitions are at 1:09 and 2:39 on this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjmBk1foFkg) Besides the trumpets signalling the transition, I hear the bass, cowbell, and the congas announcing the change.

[gte692h]

t.j.- SOOOOOOOOOO TRUE !!!

Have tried -- in vain--to promote a better understanding. How to resolve the problem, is the q that has baffled many teachers, for many yrs.

I think there may be some merit, in the thought, that the majority of students want instant dancing .

Just reflecting back on my last yrs classes , and I had some very large groups, 3 maybe 4 people, showed any interest beyond being socially adequate-- and ya know-- thats o.k.
This is also true in my Ballroom classes .
Its a sign of the times .

TT - thats sad and ironic. I dance salsa, I have a handful of decent moves, but I have an extensive understanding of the music. Unfortunately, I don't have the tools to dance to the music as well as I'd like to, and I can't find an instructor who can teach me. they are all 'move' obsessed where I am.

I think dancing to the music is more a 'spiritual' desire, not a technical one..it has to come from the student, and the student has to make the effort to find the right teacher. they will find you when when they need to!

[gte692h]

So if I'm understanding this right, I think the transitions are at 1:09 and 2:39 on this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjmBk1foFkg) Besides the trumpets signalling the transition, I hear the bass, cowbell, and the congas announcing the change.

From the perspective of salsa vs cumbia rhythms, here is the breakdown as i hear it
0-0:18 - cumbia
1s 'break' (musicality alert ;))
0:19-1:09 - cumbia
1:10-2:33 - salsa
5s 'break' (musicality alert ;))
2:38-2:58 - cumbia

Another way to look at the same song is:
0-0:18 Intro/Mambo
0:19-0:38 Celia's vocals 1
0:38 - 0:57 Coro #1
0:57 - 1:10 Mambo#1
1:10-1:37 Celias vocals 2
1:38 - 1:55 Mambo #2
1:56 - 2:14 Celia's vocals 3
2:15 - 2:35 - Mambo #3
2:41-2:58 Outro/mambo

mambo here refers to 'horn section', coro to 'chorus singers'. I hear 3 prominent times where horns kick in, although they are also present in other parts of the song. so if you think about musicality, you have a lot of options. one can change it up everytime celia sings, or everytime the horns come on, or just yell with the chorus.

btw, i am truly tired of this song ;)
also, you apply this song structure to different genres of music, like colombian salsa, ny salsa, cuban timba, etc and you'll see how each has its preferred style, and how timba might take this conventional structure and turn it on its head..

[sweavo]

OMG! That tune takes me back. Was played practically every night in Leeds 2001-2003. Never knew it was Celia Cruz. Even then I knew it wasn't regular salsa. I thought of it as "spanish pop" back then!

I wasn't able to concentrate on the music as I was too frightened by the shorts at 1:25.

[Pacion]

i heard music really speaks in swahili ..

pacion.. in your case i think its just voices in your head

:lol: You are fortunate that it is only voices! If they were singing, YOU would be in trouble ;) :banana:

OMG! That tune takes me back. Was played practically every night in Leeds 2001-2003. Never knew it was Celia Cruz. Even then I knew it wasn't regular salsa. I thought of it as "spanish pop" back then!

I wasn't able to concentrate on the music as I was too frightened by the shorts at 1:25.

Sweavo, I know what our first song will be now! :bouncy: lol!

Question for those who know. How would you dance the cumbia parts of La Vida es en Carnaval?

[Pacion]

Lol - just thought I'd mention that Betto signed up on DF... (wave)

:shock: :lol: Welcome Betto!

[Note to self: Thank goodness I am pretty methodical about attributing authors! :bouncy:]

[tangotime]

:lol:


Question for those who know. How would you dance the cumbia parts of La Vida es en Carnaval?

Cumbia side breaks

[Pacion]

Cumbia side breaks

Can you describe a bit more please? Is this different to/the same as a side step or Cuban break?

[tj]

I wasn't able to concentrate on the music as I was too frightened by the shorts at 1:25.
Who was wearing these shorts and why were they so scary? :mrgreen: (Don't answer that! :wink: )

...and regarding the song, yeah, it was way overplayed years ago, but I haven't heard it (at a club) in a long, long time.

[sweavo]

Who was wearing these shorts and why were they so scary? :mrgreen:

Just watch the youtube link


(Don't answer that! :wink: )



oops.

[tangotime]

Funny thing---- have answered the identical q on another post-- but one more time--

They are closely related to a samba whisk, very compact , or balancete . Danced in a syncop. rhythm as in--- 1 and 2-- and 3 and 4

[tj]

Just watch the youtube link

oops.

Lol! White shorts, huh...