View Full Version : Amateurs in Real Life
kimV6
05-10-2007, 04:27 PM
This might seem like a silly newb question, but I've honestly been wondering about this for a bit: What do the top amateurs do in real life? I mean theoretically as amateurs they couldn't teach for money, but they have to do something for money, right? Does anyone know what kind of jobs they have? I only ask because it would be funny for me to imagine Eugene and Maria sitting in some "Office Space"-level job. And do their co-workers know they are in the presence of greatness? :P
Laura
05-10-2007, 04:32 PM
I mean theoretically as amateurs they couldn't teach for money, but they have to do something for money, right?
Actually no.
The top amateurs -- in fact all amateurs now in the USA -- are allowed to teach for money. The top ones make their living that way and also through sponsorships.
This is also true in many other countries. I believe that the UK is one of the last strict holdouts on this.
Eugene & Maria have been teaching a very successful youth dancesport program for years, for instance.
samina
05-10-2007, 04:33 PM
i thought that they were restricted from sponsorships. that's been lifted for amateurs as well?
Laura
05-10-2007, 04:34 PM
The high level amateurs can definitely be sponsored, and have been for a number of years. Eugene & Maria are sponsored by Capezio, for instance. In fact I just saw a big ad for them in a recent issue of "Dance Beat."
quixotedlm
05-10-2007, 04:38 PM
so what's the difference between am and pro?
so what's the difference between am and pro?
ah . . . the eternal question!
Laura
05-10-2007, 04:41 PM
The difference? Nothing. A professional dancesport competitor is now merely someone who declares themself to be a professional, either by:
stating, orally or in writing, that they are a pro
by competing in a professional event in a dance competition
by competing as the "pro" part of a Pro/Am couple
kimV6
05-10-2007, 04:48 PM
Actually no.
The top amateurs -- in fact all amateurs now in the USA -- are allowed to teach for money. The top ones make their living that way and also through sponsorships.
hmm, i'd heard that that was true, i just thought it was limited enough that "amateurs" would need to supplement their income. alas there goes my fantasy that dancing was just eugene's hobby and that computer engineering or architecture was his true passion :D
samina
05-10-2007, 04:57 PM
but the NDCA still hasn't adopted this, right? so an amateur in a pro-am partnership isn't technically permitted to teach?
Laura
05-10-2007, 05:03 PM
It is my understanding that you are correct at this time, Samina. This might be changing -- I say that based on the conversation we had here with Gary McDonald during the San Francisco Open.
In practice, there already are (and have been in the past) teaching amateurs who dance as the "Am" part of a Pro/Am couple.
It is my understanding that you are correct at this time, Samina. This might be changing -- I say that based on the conversation we had here with Gary McDonald during the San Francisco Open.
In practice, there already are (and have been in the past) teaching amateurs who dance as the "Am" part of a Pro/Am couple.
Wow - I understand most of the top Standard and Latin Amateurs teach for a living, but didn't know that the Amateur half of Pro/Ams teach also.
Laura
05-10-2007, 05:54 PM
It's not as widespread, but there were at least two teaching amateurs dancing as the Am part of Pro/Am at the last competition I was in.
dancesportgirl21
05-10-2007, 05:58 PM
When this interview was done in 2005, Evgeny Smagin and Rachael Heron had regular jobs:
http://dancesportinfo.net/Interview_SmaginHeron.aspx
It seems like it really depends on the country and restrictions on teaching.
I teach about 25-30 hours per week. A while ago the rule was that if you make the national amateur final then you can teach. I only have been teaching since the beginning of this year, had A LOT of other jobs before this.
2 things that are different:
1. Amateurs can not dance at comps with students.
2. Amateurs do not win "Prize Money".... sometimes comps give money away as a "scholarship" but this is still very rare and not that much.
When I'm not practicing I love doing stuff with cars.
I teach about 25-30 hours per week. A while ago the rule was that if you make the national amateur final then you can teach. I only have been teaching since the beginning of this year, had A LOT of other jobs before this.
2 things that are different:
1. Amateurs can not dance at comps with students.
2. Amateurs do not win "Prize Money".... sometimes comps give money away as a "scholarship" but this is still very rare and not that much.
When I'm not practicing I love doing stuff with cars.
Thanks Nik! And Good Luck!
We had an interesting experience a while back . . .
A pro & local cable-access program invited DW & I and a pro couple for a half-hour show/interview - the set was arranged as usual . . . the host in a chair, a potted plant, and four chairs.
We danced-on as part of an intro (American style VW on a small set!) and they also showed video clips of us and the pro couple. The interview started off with questions to discuss the differences between the pros and amateurs. Over the course of the 30 minute tv show/interview, the host came to his own conclusion that there was virtually no difference for several reasons including that we practiced about the same (approach, time, location, effort), and took about the same amount of coaching from the many of the same coaches, as well as the parity of our skills that they saw in the tv studio as well as the video.
And it even came out that one of the pros had another job!
elisedance
05-10-2007, 09:31 PM
It is my understanding that you are correct at this time, Samina. This might be changing -- I say that based on the conversation we had here with Gary McDonald during the San Francisco Open.
In practice, there already are (and have been in the past) teaching amateurs who dance as the "Am" part of a Pro/Am couple.
Argh! so the am could actually be teaching the pro and it would technically be a pro(am)/Am(pro) couple?
Arghhhh again I say. Avast!
tunape
05-10-2007, 09:46 PM
by competing as the "pro" part of a Pro/Am couple
[/list]
hmm... would be weird to see eugene dance as the "am" part at a FADS pro-am comp. *snicker*
hmm... would be weird to see eugene dance as the "am" part at a FADS pro-am comp. *snicker*
weird - and very hard to beat!
Laura
05-11-2007, 12:02 AM
Someone told me that when Igor Suvarov first came to the US, before he & Irina turned pro, he did a little Pro/Am Standard with Mary Murphy (as in "So You Think You Can Dance" judge Mary for all you dancesport young'uns).
eflatminor
05-11-2007, 12:26 AM
I am an Am, have a regular job, but dancing is more than a hobby, it is more than a passion...it is my escape from reality
saludas
05-11-2007, 12:35 AM
I teach about 25-30 hours per week. A while ago the rule was that if you make the national amateur final then you can teach. I only have been teaching since the beginning of this year, had A LOT of other jobs before this.
2 things that are different:
1. Amateurs can not dance at comps with students.
.
This is not correct - there is 'mixed proficienncy at all amateur comps, allowing teaching amateurs prechamp and up to dance with their students, ala Pro-Am.
latingal
05-11-2007, 12:45 AM
Welcome to DF elflatminor!
Laura
05-11-2007, 01:18 AM
This is not correct - there is 'mixed proficienncy at all amateur comps, allowing teaching amateurs prechamp and up to dance with their students, ala Pro-Am.
Has this actually been offered and contested anywhere yet? I'm curious to know how it all worked out. I think I heard about Russ Wilder dancing with some younger students somewhere, but maybe I have him confused with someone else.
I am an Am, have a regular job, but dancing is more than a hobby, it is more than a passion...it is my escape from reality
Welcome eflatminor - your name indicates you have even more interests!
If you only danced you might be 1234 or 5678, but eflatminor suggests you play.
tangotime
05-11-2007, 02:06 AM
The definition of a Prof. in the u.k .-- Someone that has " sat " for Prof. exams with a recognised soc. and met the requirements to take the exam.(s ).
This has ( and still is ) done with very good reason- To protect the general public by providing a facility with qualified individuals that can guarantee a set format , that will comply with a standard method, thus allowing the student to apply his learning, in a public format .
This has nothing to do with the quality of instruction, but it speaks more to uniformity .
Without it ( one only has to look at Salsa ) a certain amount of chaos would surely exist .
The whole of the American chain schools ( and most other countries ) are predicated upon the " English " medal test system .
I always hear the argument-- " well, in todays world, its all the same "
If you were on my side of the proverbial " fence " , you may have a different viewpoint .
This is not correct - there is 'mixed proficienncy at all amateur comps, allowing teaching amateurs prechamp and up to dance with their students, ala Pro-Am.
As far as I know its not considered Pro/am but more like you just switch your amateur partner for "single" events or dances, not sure what its called exactly.
I don't think an Amateur and his student can enter a regular pro/am competition amongs other pros with students.
Who knows though, so many rules and organizations are changing all the time I gave up trying to keep up on who can do what, we all do the same thing, Dance.
Laura
05-11-2007, 12:58 PM
As far as I know its not considered Pro/am but more like you just switch your amateur partner for "single" events or dances, not sure what its called exactly.
It is called "Mixed Proficiency." Saludas was saying that it's like Pro/Am, in that the teacher is dancing with a student and not his or her regular peer partner.
I don't think an Amateur and his student can enter a regular pro/am competition amongs other pros with students.
Of course they can't. If they did, the teacher would be declaring themself a Pro, and so would lose their Amateur status.
Who knows though, so many rules and organizations are changing all the time I gave up trying to keep up on who can do what, we all do the same thing, Dance.
While I understand people's rules frustrations, in the end it is the responsibility of the competitors to know and abide by the rules for the events they are dancing in. (I'm not saying this to slam you, Nik, I'm saying it just in general because unfortunately there are people out there who think they can use "I didn't know" as a reason for not complying with the rules.) Obviously, if someone isn't doing Mixed Proficiency, then they don't need to worry about keeping track of the Mixed Proficiency rules!
Chris Stratton
05-11-2007, 02:21 PM
The definition of a Prof. in the u.k .-- Someone that has " sat " for Prof. exams with a recognised soc. and met the requirements to take the exam.(s ).
If you go by that, then you'd have to invent a new category label for those who do not qualify as professional, and are inelgible to be amateurs...
wyllo
05-11-2007, 02:22 PM
Has this actually been offered and contested anywhere yet? I'm curious to know how it all worked out. I think I heard about Russ Wilder dancing with some younger students somewhere, but maybe I have him confused with someone else.
There were a few mixed proficiency couples at Star of the North in Minneapolis this yea. Mostly I think it was adult champ level dancers dancing with some of the local college students. It's seems like a nice way to get more people competing if there are gender imbalances -- I don't know that it was necessarily a teacher/student relationship. I've also seen one of the champ latin dancers dance with his younger siblings (too cute!)
Laura
05-11-2007, 02:54 PM
I don't know that it was necessarily a teacher/student relationship.
That's another one of the nice and fun things about Mixed Proficiency: If two friends, or relatives, or whatever, of very unequal proficiency levels want to get together and dance for fun and experience, they can now do so without the Syllabus-level one having to dance up into Pre-Champ or Open.
eflatminor
05-11-2007, 02:58 PM
Welcome eflatminor - your name indicates you have even more interests!
If you only danced you might be 1234 or 5678, but eflatminor suggests you play.
Yep, I play, but not as good as I dance:)
waltzgirl
05-11-2007, 07:18 PM
That's another one of the nice and fun things about Mixed Proficiency: If two friends, or relatives, or whatever, of very unequal proficiency levels want to get together and dance for fun and experience, they can now do so without the Syllabus-level one having to dance up into Pre-Champ or Open.
How is Mixed Proficiency judged? Is only the less advanced partner judged, like pro-am, or do they judge the couple?
Laura
05-11-2007, 07:38 PM
It is my understanding that only the Syllabus-level dancer is judged.
waltzgirl
05-11-2007, 07:58 PM
Thanks, Laura!
It is called "Mixed Proficiency." Saludas was saying that it's like Pro/Am, in that the teacher is dancing with a student and not his or her regular peer partner.
I'm curious which comps offer this category. I've seen "Student/Student" events. I'm assuming that's not what Saludas was referring to because I haven't seen Mixed Proficiency in that category.
I'm curious which comps offer this category. I've seen "Student/Student" events. I'm assuming that's not what Saludas was referring to because I haven't seen Mixed Proficiency in that category.
I think "Student/Student" generally refers to Amateurs dancing in single dance events at NDCA comps while "Mixed Proficiency" comes from USA Dance.
Is this correct Laura?
Laura
05-11-2007, 09:07 PM
Swan, if you've seen "Student/Student" at a USA Dance comp, then I have no idea what it is.
At an NDCA comp, Student/Student is usually run as part of the rest of the Pro/Am program: two dance students dancing together, rather than with their teachers. The Student/Student pairing is judged as a couple.
Yes reb, "Mixed Proficiency" is a USA Dance thing. One dancer has to be Pre-Champ level or higher, and the other may only be at a Syllabus level. They would dance in a special "Mixed Proficiency" Syllabus event, and only the Syllabus-level student is judged.
Swan, if you've seen "Student/Student" at a USA Dance comp, then I have no idea what it is.
It's NDCA comps.
Yes reb, "Mixed Proficiency" is a USA Dance thing. One dancer has to be Pre-Champ level or higher, and the other may only be at a Syllabus level. They would dance in a special "Mixed Proficiency" Syllabus event, and only the Syllabus-level student is judged.
I have yet to see this listed on any of the entry forms from USA Dance events! Certainly didn't see it in South Western Regional.
Laura
05-11-2007, 09:20 PM
We're not putting anything on the schedule for the 2007 SW Regional that isn't going to be contested at at Nationals, so things like nightclub events, Mixed Proficiency, and ladies singles Latin won't be held at SW Regional.
As far as for NorCal's smaller comps, we haven't offered any Mixed Proficiency yet because only one person has shown any interest in it.
We're not putting anything on the schedule for the 2007 SW Regional that isn't going to be contested at at Nationals, so things like nightclub events, Mixed Proficiency, and ladies singles Latin won't be held at SW Regional.
I suspect Mixed Proficiency events are hypothetical :) Even if a comp offers it, it'd most likely be uncontested event...Not much fun for anyone to do it.
Laura
05-11-2007, 09:57 PM
Why not fun? I think it would be a lot of fun if I had a friend who was a newbie who wanted to try competing. I'd totally do it with a nice person who I felt like encouraging and helping along.
Also, I know someone with a younger relative who would like to do it. But so far the person with the younger relative is the only person who has asked about it in this area.
Why not fun? I think it would be a lot of fun if I had a friend who was a newbie who wanted to try competing.
I'd do it, too! But not sure if the judged half would want to enter uncontested events (even the pro/am folks are complaining about lack of entries, thus competition, in some events).
Laura
05-11-2007, 10:10 PM
Well, that's partly why NorCal is not bothering to offer it until we get a bunch of people saying "we want this!!!" If enough people show interest...also, it might not be as lightly contested as student/student mainly because Mixed Proficiency uses the USA Dance age groups and proficiency levels to split things up, not the endless groups and sub groups that the Pro/Am comps do.
I think Mixed Proficiency was brought up as a solution to situations that aren't that common in the SF Bay area.
Has this actually been offered and contested anywhere yet? I'm curious to know how it all worked out. I think I heard about Russ Wilder dancing with some younger students somewhere, but maybe I have him confused with someone else.
It was Russ, last year at SRC. And I believe it was uncontested. They just added them to some of the "normal" am heats (judged separately of course.)
chocolatchica
05-12-2007, 12:15 AM
This might seem like a silly newb question, but I've honestly been wondering about this for a bit: What do the top amateurs do in real life? I mean theoretically as amateurs they couldn't teach for money, but they have to do something for money, right? Does anyone know what kind of jobs they have? I only ask because it would be funny for me to imagine Eugene and Maria sitting in some "Office Space"-level job. And do their co-workers know they are in the presence of greatness? :P
I would so go and apply to work at the office they work at. I love theor dancing! My favorite couple!:banana:
chocolatchica
05-12-2007, 12:25 AM
AHHH this is all too confusing and I think these new rules have their ups and downs. I know I lot of the pro-ams are people that coould not compete fairly with people like eugene and maria but now people as good as max and yulia and be doing pro-am which leaves me to worry how many comps are going to be out there where this kind of situation will happen therefore dicouraging the more beginners from competing in such categories. Bsically anyone can compete as anything anytime (ALMOST). But more than ever before. But to an upside us am competitors can now make money doing what we love best withoug having to automatically having to become pro. So my question is, can you be pro then go back to am if you so chose? And so on and so forth?
Chris Stratton
05-12-2007, 12:43 AM
AHHH this is all too confusing and I think these new rules have their ups and downs. I know I lot of the pro-ams are people that coould not compete fairly with people like eugene and maria but now people as good as max and yulia and be doing pro-am which leaves me to worry how many comps are going to be out there where this kind of situation will happen therefore dicouraging the more beginners from competing in such categories.
That's why they have different categories at pro/am competitions. In the moderately unusual event that a realistically championship amateur competitor were to enter a pro/am event, surely they would not be entering beginner divisions.
There probably are people dancing down in pro/am competitions, but those would be marginally succesful students looking for an easy win. For someone who'd actually made a name for themselves as a championship competitor, what would be the point?
(Hmm maybe "my 'partner' is a new teacher in the studio and needed to start with with beginner events, so I thought I'd help out"... )
Laura
05-12-2007, 01:05 AM
can you be pro then go back to am if you so chose?
Yes, there are policies and procedures for re-instating one's Amateur status. A number of dancers have done this over the years.
Laura
05-12-2007, 01:08 AM
In the moderately unusual event that a realistically championship amateur competitor were to enter a pro/am event, surely they would not be entering beginner divisions.
Exactly.
(Hmm maybe "my 'partner' is a new teacher in the studio and needed to start with with beginner events, so I thought I'd help out"... )
Yep, that's a scenario that I've actually seen and competed against.
ACtenDance
05-12-2007, 02:06 AM
Yes reb, "Mixed Proficiency" is a USA Dance thing. One dancer has to be Pre-Champ level or higher, and the other may only be at a Syllabus level. They would dance in a special "Mixed Proficiency" Syllabus event, and only the Syllabus-level student is judged.
Actually, the rules were changed for mixed proficiency events. The non-judged partner can be of any proficiency. We ran mixed prof events at the Triangle Open in Raleigh (USA Dance comp) and the events were pretty well supported. I was able to dance with several girls that didn't have partner on our team. I saw someone on my team posted several videos, some of which are from the mixed proficiency events.
MP Bronze Cha Cha (http://stage6.divx.com/user/ladavis/video/1130283/TO2007-Mixed-Proficiency-Cha-Cha)
MP Bronze Rumba (http://stage6.divx.com/user/ladavis/video/1128594/TO2007-Mixed-Proficiency-Rumba)
ChaChaMama
05-12-2007, 08:30 AM
Has this actually been offered and contested anywhere yet? I'm curious to know how it all worked out. I think I heard about Russ Wilder dancing with some younger students somewhere, but maybe I have him confused with someone else.
I *HAVE* seen the mixed proficiency, and it was contested to a degree. (Small heats, but definitely more than 1 couple.)
If my memory serves me, there were some couples dancing mixed proficiency at Yankee Classic last year. They called it something else, like "open singles" (which really sounds like it means something else, but never mind), but definitely there were older, advanced teen boys dancing with younger, less experienced teen girls. I thought it was sweet, and a really great sign that some studios do function like communities.
(Philly Festival--the Fortunas wonderful comp--may have had it too. Unfortunately, I missed this year's Philly comp, so my info is out of date.)
Becky
Laura
05-12-2007, 01:30 PM
Actually, the rules were changed for mixed proficiency events. The non-judged partner can be of any proficiency.
Cool!
If anyone is curious, here are the rules for Mixed Proficiency in USA Dance events. (The "open singles" things ChaChaMama describes was held at NDCA events, so is run by a different sanctioning body and might very well have different rules.)
3.8. MIXED PROFICIENCY EVENTS
3.8.1. A Mixed Proficiency couple consists of a DanceSport Athlete and a partner. Professionals are not eligible to participate in these events.
3.8.2. For Mixed Proficiency events, eligibility is determined by the DanceSport Athlete's proficiency level and only the DanceSport Athlete is judged.
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4.5.2.1. ... Proficiency points are cumulative across all events, including Mixed Proficiency events.
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.
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4.5.3.2. Mixed Proficiency events are restricted to Bronze, Silver and Gold syllabus.
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4.5.6.1. Male and female Athletes must be judged separately in Mixed Proficiency events.
That's why they have different categories at pro/am competitions. In the moderately unusual event that a realistically championship amateur competitor were to enter a pro/am event, surely they would not be entering beginner divisions.
There probably are people dancing down in pro/am competitions, but those would be marginally succesful students looking for an easy win. For someone who'd actually made a name for themselves as a championship competitor, what would be the point?
Well said!
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