On2 question

[tj]

(admittedly this is a repeat of a question that I put on salsaforums)

I've been watching the locals dance On2 around here and have been occasionally dabbling in it myself. I've made an observation, and want to know everyone's experience: Quite a few of the more experienced/better On2 dancers are actually moving with the bass (tumbao) rather than actually on the 2-3. How common is this practice? Is it just a local thing?

(if you're not following what I'm saying, go to sweavo's salsamerlizer (http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/apps/salsamerlizer/) and turn off everything but the bass/tumbao).

[devane]

Don't know about the whole On2 thing but mentioning the Tumbao......

I had a discussion with a Tumbao player who said "less musical dancers dance to the Tumbao". This is a On1 comminuty.

I think at least dancing to SOMETHING constistancy is to be admired.

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.


related to timing (not ON"2).......

Just saw an advanced class the other day. They put on a timing cd with a track that gave you every beat (1,2,3..5,6,7). About 90% started on the "one" even with the aid of a guy saying "1,2,3.....". :rolleyes:
I saw a girl start on 1, the guy stalled until 5. She looked at me and gave me a look like "oh well, what can you do" ;)
I know people have trouble with the music but if your students can't follow a timing cd , well that's shameful on the teachers part.

That salsamerlizer is great. All I was taught in a Web related course (mostly programming though) was how to make a ball bounce back and forth. That's 3rd level Education for you.

[salsamarty]

I've been dancing to on1 for about 8 years. I finally learned on2 last fall. I can hardly tell you myself exactly what part of the music I am dancing to but it does feel different. I can describe at least two aspects to this. The first is that I am still listening to the 1 beat but I am simply stepping in a different direction when I step to it. I can feel it most when doing a cross body lead. I can definately feel it with my left foot when starting the lead. I often do a cross body to the 1 beat to get back on the 2 beat. The other more obvious part to this is that by dancing on2 you are "giving" the livelier more active phrase of the music to the follower. This is what makes it "feel" different. You are dancing to a different phrase in the music.

I am vaguely aware that there are different musical instruments and elements that on2 coincide with but I am not enough of a musician to break this down analytically.

[jenibelle]

"The other more obvious part to this is that by dancing on2 you are "giving" the livelier more active phrase of the music to the follower."


I have to disagree with this. Which is the livelier phrase of the music and how does dancing on 2 have anything to do with it?

Jeni

[salsamarty]

Sorry, sort of . . . I got it backwards. I should have said that the first part of the measure is "livelier" by which I mean that this is where the strong downbeat of the music is. When dancing on2 I give that part of the music to the follower.

I am not entirely alone on this. We have a salsa teacher in the area who has been emphisizing musicality in his club lessons. Since he has to teach on1 in this area (San Francisco) he accommodates the music by shifting the phase of the count and has the leaders starting forward on 5. Of course I know another teacher who thinks this is weird.

Dancing on2 changes the direction of the dance. Having danced on2 for about 6 months I can definately feel a difference in my relationship to the music that comes with this change in direction.

[tangotime]

They gave you EVERY beat ?-- if you were dancing Waltz !! (3/4 time )

Every beat-- 1,2,3,4 second bar-- 1,2,3,4

[tangotime]

S.Mar.-- Not so strange-- its on 2 , of the second bar.

Many teachers dance with that sequence .

[sweavo]

I can answer the "livelier part" question. If you listen to the music counting 1 to 8 (let's not get into phrases that swap the 1 and 5 just yet) Then usually the big change-of-section, the fancy brass stabs, or the re-entry after a pause will happen on the 1,2,3 side of the 8 counts.

If you take a CBL or a follower's spin, the lead happens on 1,2,3 and the follow on 5,6,7. On ET2 timing (which is really 'on6' if you think about it in these terms) the lead is happening on 6,7,8 and the follow executes on 1,2,3..

A debate about whether on1 or on2 is 'better' because of this is useless since it's largely a matter of taste, BUT

If you watch LA style dancers, the big stabs on beat 1 are often interpreted with large open breaks, or with a real emphatic movement of the arms starting a CBL, with the move coming in a few beats later.

If you watch ET2 dancers, those points in the music are often the start of a multiple spin or the actual CBL rather than the lead leading up to it.

[tj]

Interesting (and non-political lol) discussion...

I'd also add that for On1, several instructors have mentioned that the 1-2-3 is often a time for Follows to throw in a little styling (especially after a CBL with lots of separation) and "do their own thing".

While 5-6-7 is when I'm asking her to execute a move.

So I understand what you're saying.

[tj]

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.

Yeah, as an On1 dancer, my ear isn't tuned for the 2-3 or the 6-7. I'm mostly listening for those 1's and 5's.

It's why this tumbao/bass thing is a nice crutch possibly (although it's starting to sound like a local thing). If that's what people are listening to, then it should be pretty easy.

Lol - a new style, On2.5 :wink:

[noobster]

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.

Well,

1) For ETon2 we're stepping on all the same beats as the on1 dancers. It's only the break step that's different.

2) But I'm a bit confused by this question anyway. If you can find the 1, you can find the 2, right? It's the next beat just after! :D

3) Of course, in my home scene, which is on2, there's definitely a tendency to play on2-specific music. Some music is very difficult to dance to on2 - not because you can't find the 2, but because it isn't emphasized and it doesn't feel like you're dancing to the music.

4) Also, different leaders start on different beats. Some on2 guys will start by stepping back on the 1, others will start by stepping forward on the 6.

[tj]

2) But I'm a bit confused by this question anyway. If you can find the 1, you can find the 2, right? It's the next beat just after! :D



3) Some music is very difficult to dance to on2 - not because you can't find the 2, but because it (the 2) isn't emphasized and it doesn't feel like you're dancing to the music.

You've answered your own question #2 with your statement in #3 (for me at least). When I say that I have problems finding the 2, it's just as you say - it's not emphasized enough in that particular song for me to hear it.

[salsamarty]

Thank you sweavo for making clear what I said so badly.

[noobster]

You've answered your own question #2 with your statement in #3 (for me at least). When I say that I have problems finding the 2, it's just as you say - it's not emphasized enough in that particular song for me to hear it.
Well. I wouldn't say that I can't *hear* it. I can hear the 2 in any song, just like I can hear the 5, the 8, or any other beat. It's just that it's not as much fun to dance on2 if the 2 is not emphasized. You can do it (and I have done it with partners who only know on2). I didn't mean that it was difficult in any technical sense. It just doesn't feel right for those songs.

[sweavo]

I'm confused about On2 timing too! What do they listen for? Not all songs have the clave.

Yeah, as an On1 dancer, my ear isn't tuned for the 2-3 or the 6-7. I'm mostly listening for those 1's and 5's.


I still think the "dancing to the clave" is either a myth or it means something other than what we think it means. Don't forget clave does not only refer to the 5-tick clave pattern or the two bits of wood, it also refers to a rhythmic rule that ties together consecutive four-beat bars in the music.

If you're looking for a particular instrument to dance on2 to, listen to the conga drum. You get a really dependable slap sound on 2 and 6. This pattern is, confusingly, also called 'tumbao'.

You can switch on and off the rhythmic parts here http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/apps/salsamerlizer/ to find the conga pattern.

I think when people say "we like a music with a strong clave" they mean something with the cascara, tumbao and montuno, i.e. not latin pop, not ricky martin, not timba, not reggaeton.


Lol - a new style, On2.5 :wink:

Heheh. I tried to invent (for the purposes of satire) a new count a while back but it turned out I was doing son. I didn't think of breaking on a half-beat!


Thank you sweavo for making clear what I said so badly.

You're quite welcome!

[tangotime]

Interestingly, " son ", , if in its original time sign. would be 4/6 .

And Steve, I agree with you, the elusive , mystic " I,m dancing to clave " , quest, is possibly anything but, in many, if not most, cases .

The dominant beat of the bar, as we have previously stated, is " 1 ", which is the case for all dances to use , as may be appropriate .The method of using the " 1 " beat in Mambo to commence, was very instrumental in helping students ( and teachers !! ) to get on time .

Waltz would be a classic e,g. where the downbeat ( 1 ) is much more pronounced than the 2 and 3 of the bar. this is pretty much the case for most dance rhythms ( merengue being a possible exception ) .

Tuning the "musical ear " , as most teachers know, is only achieved, in most cases, after very long exposure , to the application of movement to the corresponding rhythmical pattern .

[tj]

Well. I wouldn't say that I can't *hear* it. I can hear the 2 in any song, just like I can hear the 5, the 8, or any other beat. It's just that it's not as much fun to dance on2 if the 2 is not emphasized. You can do it (and I have done it with partners who only know on2). I didn't mean that it was difficult in any technical sense. It just doesn't feel right for those songs.

I'd actually go so far as to say that, for me, I don't "hear" the 2 a lot of the time - that my ear isn't trained to hear it, and that I can identify the 2 more because it's right after the 1, which my ear automatically hears.

[witchphd]

I'd actually go so far as to say that, for me, I don't "hear" the 2 a lot of the time - that my ear isn't trained to hear it, and that I can identify the 2 more because it's right after the 1, which my ear automatically hears.

You're not alone. When I was first starting salsa, I could pick out the 1 withoug any problem. Dancing to it was a different matter, however. Now when I dance, I can hear all of the instruments and play accordingly. Recently, I tried on2 and had to block out everything except the clave/tumbao to keep the timing. Perhaps that's because I'm used to the one timing. Either way, I have no desire to put in enough work to dance on2.

[tj]

I still think the "dancing to the clave" is either a myth or it means something other than what we think it means. Don't forget clave does not only refer to the 5-tick clave pattern or the two bits of wood, it also refers to a rhythmic rule that ties together consecutive four-beat bars in the music.

Yes, I'm trying to avoid using the phrase during this discussion...


If you're looking for a particular instrument to dance on2 to, listen to the conga drum. You get a really dependable slap sound on 2 and 6. This pattern is, confusingly, also called 'tumbao'.


It's something I'll definitely have to work at...

Definitely going to need some time to digest some of these concepts.

[tj]

Either way, I have no desire to put in enough work to dance on2.
And that's how it should be, IMHO. Learn either style if you want to, but don't be putting down the other style.

[sweavo]

And that's how it should be, IMHO. Learn either style if you want to, but don't be putting down the other style.

But you could take all the energy you save by not learning your less favourite style and put it into finding reasons why the other style is wrong!

May contain satire

[tj]

But you could take all the energy you save by not learning your less favourite style and put it into finding reasons why the other style is wrong!

May contain satire

:p :p

[noobster]

I'd actually go so far as to say that, for me, I don't "hear" the 2 a lot of the time - that my ear isn't trained to hear it, and that I can identify the 2 more because it's right after the 1, which my ear automatically hears.

That's interesting. I actually don't think this would prevent you from dancing ETon2 (maybe it would interfere with Power2, dunno) because you do still start by stepping forward on the 1, and everything else just follows. It probably wouldn't feel particularly nice though, and might not be very musical.

(But I suspect the songs in which you "don't hear" the 2 are probably songs that don't feel nice for on2 anyway.)

[tj]

It probably wouldn't feel particularly nice though, and might not be very musical.

(But I suspect the songs in which you "don't hear" the 2 are probably songs that don't feel nice for on2 anyway.)

Yes and yes...

[tj]

If you're looking for a particular instrument to dance on2 to, listen to the conga drum. You get a really dependable slap sound on 2 and 6. This pattern is, confusingly, also called 'tumbao'.

The problem, I find, is that it's hard to hear this particular instrument, especially with anything else going on.

At least to me...

[salsamarty]

When I first thought about learning to dance on2 I thought I had to learn about the clave. I did learn about the clave, thanks to Mike Bello's course, but this didn't get me any closer to dancing on2.

When dancing on2 I still hear the strong downbeat on 1 and utilize it to keep timing. In some songs it's possible to listen to the conga but it doesn't work for every song and it is easier to hear in some parts of the the song and not others. It isn't very reliable for me to keep timing.

When dancing on2 I do feel like I am dancing to different parts of the music than when I am dancing on1 though I can't articulate the musical details myself. There is another quick-quick-slow on2 timing that goes 2-3-4 6-7-8 that I've found goes well will some of the older classic songs. In general, I am in the camp that says some songs are better on1 songs and others are better on2 and then again some with the 2-3-4 6-7-8 timing described above.

It all about listening closely to the music and dancing to the music. I am hardly an expert at this but it is another layer of interest to add to my love of salsa dancing.

[Paou]

...I've made an observation, and want to know everyone's experience: Quite a few of the more experienced/better On2 dancers are actually moving with the bass (tumbao) rather than actually on the 2-3. How common is this practice? Is it just a local thing?


I didn't see any answers here about the bass, but with me: The bass and the slap of the congas are definately THE most prominant part of the music that I feel dancing on 2.

In fact... One of the workshops I teach is an "on2 for on1 dancers" workshop, and this is one of the things I concentrate on! :D - It's really important to get that on2 "feeling" rather than just stepping on2 without connecting!

It's hard to explain in text, but here goes.... I'll also try and stick a video somewhere if anyone is interested... probably easier.

There are three points (to match the three steps!! :D:D )

1) Naturally, the slap of the congas matches the break step, (on 2 and 6)

2) The bass in 'most' songs actually starts closer to the 3 rather than 2& which then matches the next step better.. although it does tend to shift a bit before 3.

3) Now the last step is tricky....the second bass note is normally extended (so starting on 4 - ending on 5) which leads naturally into delaying the last step later to match a more ET style timing.

However - when dancing on 2 I tend to dance somewhere "in-between" ET style (1,2',3..5,6'7) and power2 (2',3,4..6',7,8 ) - ( the ' character means the break step) - I try and explain why below:

That last 4 step in power2 corresponds to the second bass note, and when the extended note finishes it's somewhere around 4& or 5...

Imagine just moving that 4 step in power2 from 4 to 5.... voila - ET on2
now move it back just a bit to 4&, and that's how I feel the music.

Anyway, that's my 2c - as I said, I'll stick a video on youtube when I get round to recording one... my camera is broke at the mo tho, so probably be a week or so.

cheers!

[tj]

It's hard to explain in text, but here goes.... I'll also try and stick a video somewhere if anyone is interested... probably easier.

Well, of course, you know that I'm interested. :)


There are three points (to match the three steps!! :D:D )

1) Naturally, the slap of the congas matches the break step, (on 2 and 6)

2) The bass in 'most' songs actually starts closer to the 3 rather than 2& which then matches the next step better.. although it does tend to shift a bit before 3.

3) Now the last step is tricky....the second bass note is normally extended (so starting on 4 - ending on 5) which leads naturally into delaying the last step later to match a more ET style timing.

However - when dancing on 2 I tend to dance somewhere "in-between" ET style (1,2',3..5,6'7) and power2 (2',3,4..6',7,8 ) - ( the ' character means the break step) - I try and explain why below:

That last 4 step in power2 corresponds to the second bass note, and when the extended note finishes it's somewhere around 4& or 5...

Imagine just moving that 4 step in power2 from 4 to 5.... voila - ET on2
now move it back just a bit to 4&, and that's how I feel the music.

Good explanation! I understand what you're saying.


Anyway, that's my 2c - as I said, I'll stick a video on youtube when I get round to recording one... my camera is broke at the mo tho, so probably be a week or so.

cheers!
Very cool, thanks for sharing!

[tj]

When I first thought about learning to dance on2 I thought I had to learn about the clave. I did learn about the clave, thanks to Mike Bello's course, but this didn't get me any closer to dancing on2.

When dancing on2 I still hear the strong downbeat on 1 and utilize it to keep timing. In some songs it's possible to listen to the conga but it doesn't work for every song and it is easier to hear in some parts of the the song and not others. It isn't very reliable for me to keep timing.


Yup, same problem here.


When dancing on2 I do feel like I am dancing to different parts of the music than when I am dancing on1 though I can't articulate the musical details myself. There is another quick-quick-slow on2 timing that goes 2-3-4 6-7-8 that I've found goes well will some of the older classic songs. In general, I am in the camp that says some songs are better on1 songs and others are better on2 and then again some with the 2-3-4 6-7-8 timing described above.

Again, same experience for me.


It all about listening closely to the music and dancing to the music. I am hardly an expert at this but it is another layer of interest to add to my love of salsa dancing.
That's how I feel about it, too. Also, with Atlanta being a predominantly On1 town, I don't feel pressured to learn it like in other cities. Makes it more conducive to my learning especially when I'm "not getting it".

[mambochino]

tj i assume that you are observing the ET2 in Atlanta.
first of all, on2 means breaking or changing direction on the 2nd beat. naturally, u can assume the meaning of on1.
With ET2, you still give the respect of the rhythm by stepping on the first step, but break on2.
in regards to the clave, the rhythm is built around the clave. therefore, the clave is the foundation/core of the music. it decides the overall temple of the song. Now, when it comes to dancing on clave, either the Palladium 2 or the ET 2 are the closest to the sound of the clave, but no exact. the breaking steps (2 & 6) are the emphasis.
while the clave may be difficult to find, many can find the beat of the conga. you should be able to find the slap on the 2nd beat.

[tj]

in regards to the clave, the rhythm is built around the clave. therefore, the clave is the foundation/core of the music. it decides the overall temple of the song. Now, when it comes to dancing on clave, either the Palladium 2 or the ET 2 are the closest to the sound of the clave, but no exact. the breaking steps (2 & 6) are the emphasis.
while the clave may be difficult to find,


Well, again using sweavo's salsamerlizer, I can find the 2 and 6 just fine when I mute everything but the conga and cascara. But add in some other instruments, and I find it being drowned out.

But when you talk about dancing to the clave, do you mean the 5 beats? I don't find it all that particularly helpful when trying to dance On2. You'll find it fine in 1/2 the measure, sure.


many can find the beat of the conga. you should be able to find the slap on the 2nd beat.
Yes, I definitely hear it, but my ear's not tuned for it. So I'll lose it during a lot of music.

[mambochino]

it will take time. jsut listen to more music. pay attention to every instrument.

in regards to dancing on clave (i m no expert), it is not meant that you are dancing on the exact clave beat, it simply means that you are breaking/changing direction base on the clave pattern. There are not many songs you can dance to the sound of clave (just clave alone when the sound of it dictates everything else). One came to mind is GSR Perdoname. Towards the end, the clave and the vocal are the strongest.

[tj]

Ok, happy to report that I was listening for the conga & cascara last night, and I could hear it quite distinctly in at least a half dozen songs or so. :cool:

[sweavo]

Ok, happy to report that I was listening for the conga & cascara last night, and I could hear it quite distinctly in at least a half dozen songs or so. :cool:

Woot! Go TJ! I did a few rhythm & timing workshops - we brought all our percussion toys and broke down conga bongo, bells, and cascara... and one guy said it all seemed pretty irrelevant until he got the cascara. It's not a loud part but it does sort of cut through doesn't it! To me the cascara really stands out, but that might just be because I play it!

[Lucretia]

Hmm....I will try to gather the impressions I got from all posts above and my own experience (I'm new in on-2).

If I have to find the 1 for starting up dancing on-2 I'm lost. Dancing becomes a mathematical expression more than a dance.

If I can feel the 2 I don't not need to keep track on 1. The legs goes forward and backward on 2 and 6. Beat 1 is just a state of transition.

I think the key is the music. You shouldn't dance on-2 to typical on-1 music. If the conga is sharp enough - it is much more easier to dance on-2. Else I stay to on-1.

/luc

ps. A sideeffect of dancing salsa on-2 is that chacha becomes so much more easy. You should have seen husband last night - after 6 month of salsa-on2 he is dancing chacha like a god. But he cannot dance salsa-on2 yet ;)

[englezul]

I don't use the conga for timing, if the clave is noticeable it's fine if it's not there it's not a biggie. On 2 is something where timing is more 'felt' sort of speak because of its flow.

Conga is given as a reference point to the beginners to help them find the timing but at intermediate levels following the conga is just to rigid.

A better approach is getting yourself used to the clave and overimposing a clave beat in your head for reference.

But the best way to keeping timing On2 IMO is feeling the syncopated rhythm. If you get that, clave or no clave, conga or no conga...you'll never have timing problems again.

[devane]

2) But I'm a bit confused by this question anyway. If you can find the 1, you can find the 2, right? It's the next beat just after! :D


That's true. I kinda do that when using the clave (2,3). With a little practice tapping out the 2,3 rhythm to a few songs finding the 1 is easy.
But finding the 1 from the clave (2,3) is easy because its a distict silence or pause that marks it because you know the pattern it uses. So you're not really using 2 to find 1. The 1 is just silent.

But finding the 2 from the melody seems a bit strange because the 2 isn't marked out with a noise or silent part. Well I don't notice it anyway.








If you're looking for a particular instrument to dance on2 to, listen to the conga drum. You get a really dependable slap sound on 2 and 6.

I can never hear the clap with all the other instruments. All I can hear is the 4& and 8& clearly all the time.





Lol - a new style, On2.5 :wink:


New styles crop up here all the time. Natural selection will decide if they hold any merit. I doubt they will get a thumbs up from the percussionist though. ;)

[sweavo]

New styles crop up here all the time. Natural selection will decide if they hold any merit. I doubt they will get a thumbs up from the percussionist though. ;)


The bass player would give it his heartfelt approval though.