Who is the Leader?

[TheArchon]

Hi

Yesteday I had some kind of understanding, that I should partly let the girl lead me to the moves she wants, a lot of girls, some of them are veteren dancers, i can't dance with because of that.

So do you think dancing should be feedback, and feedfoward controlers :?: Should i give up some of my leading for a more harmonius dance :?:

I've never tried it(i dance for almost 2 years).

If not, any advice on how to deal with girls like this without breaking their arms :?:

:roll:

[peachexploration]

Hi Archon. The leader should always "lead". It sounds like the followers you're dancing with just don't get it. :? :cry: Now, there are moves that you can't lead like when a follower does swivels or shines. But even then, the leader initiates it. Question for the leaders. How can Archon remedy this :?:

[Vin]

Are the women actually leading you or are they doing there own thing when you lead them? If a follow does something unexpected with a lead I sometimes try and play with it, try that lead again, if they do the same unexpected thing as before than they are following, they are just reading what you want them to do differently.

[TheArchon]

Are the women actually leading you or are they doing there own thing when you lead them? If a follow does something unexpected with a lead I sometimes try and play with it, try that lead again, if they do the same unexpected thing as before than they are following, they are just reading what you want them to do differently.

I will give you an example, i want to make half a turn, not a full turn, but the one i dance with already decided that i want to make a full turn, and she fights me to make this turn(not exactly what i mean but its hard for me to describe a more complex move, its just to make a point). The most common control issues is with known moves, that i want to make my own variation for them, the girl(mostly experienced) thinks she knows what my next move is, and she just do it.

[peachexploration]

Okay, just what I thought. I'm a follower and I am also guilty of anticipating a move. One way you can remedy this is to kindly whisper to the follower. "Listen, I'm gonna try something new, bear with me for a moment". If they are good followers, they will listen and let you lead the move. The only thing is, you may have to keep doing this for a while since alot of followers are doing this in your area. :? Any other suggestions anyone :?:

[Vin]

I think I understand where you are coming from, I have gone through issues like this as well, for this type of move that you mention I will use my right hand to stop her momentum midspin and then flick her back the other way.
Do you know someone whom you can practice with regularly, when I first started making variations on things I did it only with someone who I felt confident dancing with, and in a controlled environment, only after I got more comfortable varying the dance would I start throwing unexpected things at unexpecting partners.

[TheArchon]

I've got partners, that i can do whatever i wish with them :twisted: , that is because they let me lead, they dont interfer with my lead. And i can't tell every partner what im going to do know, since i dont know what they know, it seems kind of funny to tell in advance every move i make...

And i know how to make the moves, like turning the partner clockwise, with both hands, then starting to make the back to back move, but only halfway, then i return the hands, most of the times, they will just finish the move for me...

[peachexploration]

......that is because they let me lead, they dont interfer with my lead. And i can't tell every partner what im going to do know, since i dont know what they know, it seems kind of funny to tell in advance every move i make.....

Well, as leader, you feel them out in the beginning of the dance. After a little while, you should have an idea of what level they are. If moves are too difficult for that person, then you should concentrate on the more simple moves. Just a suggestion. Only you know for sure. :D

Also, here are some tips from one of our Salsa Experts:
==========================================
"7 Tips To Master Salsa Dancing" Part II
==========================================

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tip #3: Know Your Role
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Knowing your role, means knowing how to follow the leader...

It is very important to always follow the leader during a song.
Now, this goes for both the guys and the girls. I'm sure you
already know that the man leads the woman on the dance floor,
however, the man also has a leader. That's right guys, you have
to follow your leader, and guess what, EVERYONE at a dance has a
follower and a leader. Let's break it down like this:

(P.S. This section was first mentioned in an earlier post and I
believe it's in the Library section of the forum. Believe me, if
you haven't made it over there, make sure you go and check
out the Library because it's full of great articles written by
many dancers and instructors...)

1. The lead singer follows the energy of the crowd, but at the
same time leads the band.

2. The band follows the lead singer, but at the same time they
lead the rhythm.

3. The man follows the rhythm of the band and lead singer, but
at the same time leads the woman.

4. The woman follows the man, but in turn they both lead the
singer (or DJ at the club) with the energy that they give
off on the dance floor.

As you can see, this cycle goes on forever, (or just until the
end of the song ;-) but it goes to show the important relationship
that EVERYONE at a club has with each other.

Now both the guy and the girl have to listen to the song to be able
to know exactly how to dance and when to turn and of course when to step.

Remember, the girl follows the guy all the way, this is very
important. You both will have fun and enjoy the dance even more
if you follow this simple rule. When you do this, the couple
becomes one and it looks and feels wonderful.

But there's still more - let's continue with Tip #4...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tip #4:
Hand Coordination
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hand coordination is a very crucial part of your dance. This is
due to the fact that all the turns and turn patterns are managed
and controlled through your hands and their placement, both in
and out of a turn. When the guy wants the girl to do any kind of
turn or turn pattern, both of your hands obviously need to be
coordinated. The same goes for dips, styles and shines, in all
of these patterns the hands play a very important role.

This is achieved by:

1. Practicing with your partner

2. If you don't have a partner, and are dancing with someone new
keep it simple; Just do enough to get the feel of the other
person.
3. Communicate with each other; if you find someone you enjoy
dancing with, Just talk during a break and get to know each
other and what you expect of each other on the dance floor.

By accomplishing hand coordination you will achieve the following
results:

1. You will maintain your balance throughout the most complex
turns and patterns.

2. You will feel and look better with far fewer errors in between.

The great thing about this is that you are in complete control
of this aspect.

You see, if there was something that was out
of your control, then your success depends on factors outside
of what you can influence.

However, with everything that you have learned so far, you have
complete and total control to succeed.

Combine this with the other 3 Tips, and you are on your way!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tip #5:
Eye Contact
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Eye Contact

It is extremely important for you to have eye contact with your
partner. There is simply no two ways about this. When you
train yourself to look at your partner's eyes while dancing, you
could be unstoppable in any dance competition. By having eye
contact you achieve the following:

1. This creates a certain comfort of body & mind that gives you
confidence and total control of your body and your movements,
as well as your partner's body and movements.

2. After you get accustomed to dancing and having eye contact,
you will have a better feel of what your partner will do
next, this is especially true for the ladies, because you
have to follow the lead of the guy you are dancing with.

3. The vibe you will send out to everyone is that you are a
couple that is used to dancing with each other, making you
much more appealing to everyone around you.

4. Ultimately, you will feel more comfortable dancing with your
partner, which leads to a much more impressive dance routine.

I have had a lot of people not realize this, but eye contact is
so important that I'm surprised more instructors don't speak of
this!

I don't care how many spins you can make, if you do not look
elegant, if it does not seem that you and your partner are like
one, it will NOT look good...

Don't forget this tip, this one is really important!

[borikensalsero]

I've got partners, that i can do whatever i wish with them :twisted: , that is because they let me lead, they dont interfer with my lead. And i can't tell every partner what im going to do know, since i dont know what they know, it seems kind of funny to tell in advance every move i make...

And i know how to make the moves, like turning the partner clockwise, with both hands, then starting to make the back to back move, but only halfway, then i return the hands, most of the times, they will just finish the move for me...

TheArchon, A great deal of follower problems can be solved with the lead. The better you lead the less a follower will get out of choreography. Experienced dancers tend to like to fly solo. Example as you said, you want half a turn, the lady flies through for an entire turn. Try using the left hand to stop her momentum, or use the leading hand to do a very subtle sping where she can read the signal better.

When I want the lady to do a half spin, my lead is very slow going into the turn, that way the girl knows not to fly any where. Meaning that I start on the 4 but the lead is so slow that when the 2 comes around my hand is barely moving to which girls react nicely and take a slow smooth spin, where I then stop them with my free hand half way through the turn.

The best way to get at a lead I find is always trying to do something to acomodate the follower. Even if she doesn't get the move, work on your lead until it is so perfectly clear that you achieve your goal. Work on it all the time. I work on my lead in every dance, every move, for each girl needs to be lead differently.

[borikensalsero]

There are rules to dancing.

Even though I see the lead/follow convention, I think of it differently. I see the music as being the leader, the male the “choreographer”, and the lady the follower.

The music says, where and when, the leader interprets it as he wishes and gives the follower the choreography to follow. The lady should never try to be the choreographer when the guy is telling her what to do. When solo dancing, to each his own. But until then, the lady follows, the guy leads.

[peachexploration]

And i can't tell every partner what im going to do know, since i dont know what they know, it seems kind of funny to tell in advance every move i make...
... Last night, I kept misinterpreting a leaders direction because his hand/body connection said one thing but he clearly wanted to do something else. So here comes the communication part when you have to say,"Let's try this again, show me what you're trying to do." It took 30 seconds and the move was perfected between us. I'm not saying you have to do this every time but if you see where you're having trouble, it can be easily corrected. :D

....Try using the left hand to stop her momentum, or use the leading hand to do a very subtle sping where she can read the signal better.....

When I want the lady to do a half spin, my lead is very slow going into the turn, that way the girl knows not to fly any where. Meaning that I start on the 4 but the lead is so slow that when the 2 comes around my hand is barely moving to which girls react nicely and take a slow smooth spin, where I then stop them with my free hand half way through the turn.

The best way to get at a lead I find is always trying to do something to acomodate the follower. Even if she doesn't get the move, work on your lead until it is so perfectly clear that you achieve your goal. Work on it all the time. I work on my lead in every dance, every move, for each girl needs to be lead differently.To add on to Boriken's statement: Leaders lead differently as well so the followers also have to adjust. Some leads I can follow very well and others, it takes more effort. Doesn't mean they're bad dancers, just different. Boriken, you and vin should open your own schools, I'd love to be a student follower. :) :banana:

[borikensalsero]

Boriken, you and vin should open your own schools, I'd love to be a student follower. :) :banana:

:lol: :D My own school? God, then we'd really be complaining about bad dancers. :shock: :lol: That's what the dance world needs, my ideas currupting minds. :twisted:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

[quote=peachexploration] Boriken, you and vin should open your own schools, I'd love to be a student follower. :) :banana:

I would enroll also if it wasn´t so far away...

[borikensalsero]

[quote=peachexploration] Boriken, you and vin should open your own schools, I'd love to be a student follower. :) :banana:

I would enroll also if it wasn´t so far away...

We'll go on a tour. :D

[Vin]

Boriken, you and vin should open your own schools, I'd love to be a student follower. :) :banana:
I am honored to be included, but I will have much to learn, sign me up for the lessons as well.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

[quote=peachexploration] Boriken, you and vin should open your own schools, I'd love to be a student follower. :) :banana:

I would enroll also if it wasn´t so far away...

We'll go on a tour. :D

How about Tuesdays and Thursdays? I will try to round up around 200 salseros/as to make it worth your while. :wink: