Ballroom -- Underdog of the dance world?

[pygmalion]

I was out looking for dance topics today, so I decided to read some dance magazines. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but ballroom dance was mentioned only in passing, if at all. What gives? Why are ballet, jazz, modern, tap, and even HIP-HOP accepted as disciplines in the dance world, but ballroom not? Is ballroom just a stepchild, or a fallback position for dancers? Or is it a respectable discipline of its own, with its own culture and standards? Why? And why do traditional dance programs, universities, etc, often not include ballroom dance?

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and is this stepchild status just an American phenomenon, or do people all over the world view ballroom as something less/different than other forms of dance?

[MadamSamba]

Perhaps it's different here in Australia, but I find that most (non-dancing) people instantly think ballroom when you say you dance (maybe I just hang around with the wrong crowd!!! :lol:

If rock'n roll comes up in conversation the reaction is usually, "oh, that's cool" and with salsa it tends to be along the lines of "oh, that's sexy", but people seem to admire ballroom (or perhaps they're too polite to laugh in my face...he he he)

But I think it depends on who you talk to...ballet dancers might consider ballroom (actually, any other form of dance) inferior, while line-dancers may find ballroom too complicated and hip hop (or modern, "funky" dancers") might consider ballroom too stilted and pretentious...ballroom dancers, of course, find it beautiful, graceful and wonderful fun!!!

Having said that, I think dancers are a rare breed and appreciate dance as a whole, as an art form. I don't think there'd be too many dancers who denigrate another styles vehemently or absolutely loathe other people's dances...I know that I'd try any style of dancing at least once, be it traditional Balinese dancing to breakdancing _ but then I'm a dance hussie, I'll dance anywhere, with anyone!!!!! :)

[KevinL]

Is ballroom just a stepchild...

Oh yeah, and is this stepchild status just an American phenomenon...

This topic makes me uncomfortable. While I agree that ballroom dance is not discussed in most dance magazines, and is predominantly ignored by most non-partner dancers, that is not what makes me uncomfortable.

What makes me uncomfortable is the concept of a "stepchild" being less loved than another child. This concept appears to be very ingrained in modern thought since many fairy tales deal with evil stepparents/ abused stepchildren. This kind of negative thought does little to reflect the positive aspects of step parents and step children. Yes, some people look upon step children as a burden that comes with the partner that they really want, but most people see children (even if not thier own biologically) as a blessing.

Repeating stereotypes (like the unloved step child) does little to reflect the reality of most peoples lives, and eventually people accept whatever the sterotype is as "truth".

[pygmalion]

Point taken, Kevin. You're right. That expression has some historically bad connotations associated with it. So I'll change the name of the thread. Thanks for the feedback. :) :wink:

[KevinL]

No problem, I'm just sensitive to some issues that other people are not.

[pygmalion]

Understood, Kevin. Understood.

And what IS the deal with all the dance magazines/camps/schools out there ignoring ballroom?

[dancin_feet]

Perhaps it's different here in Australia, but I find that most (non-dancing) people instantly think ballroom when you say you dance (maybe I just hang around with the wrong crowd!!!

Geez MadamSamba, when I mention that I dance that's not what comes into the minds of people I'm talking to! And you think you're talking to the wrong crowd!! :wink:

I think it is more that ballroom is a "partner" dance. Because people usually have their own personal space that they dance in, starting to partner dance is quite uncomfortable and less popular than other forms like jazz and tap.

Another reason could be it's commercial appeal. You generally don't see ballroom dancers in a video clip or movie these days, do you?

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I wonder how things are in other countries. In the US, ballroom has a much lower relative popularity/visibility than many other forms of dance. I'm not sure whether that's because it has less commercial appeal, because it's more expensive, because it has stereotypes associated with it, or what.

But I'll tell you the reaction I get when I tell people I ballroom dance. First shock, then, generally, a quote like "Wow! I've always wanted to do that." It's weird. People want to do it, but they don't. I don't know why. *shrug*

[Porfirio Landeros]

I think enough instances of ballroom-flavored references come up in the media that it has commercial appeal, but for a couple of reasons, it's not respected as a structured dicipline.

One reaon for this is that people don't generally see past the social-only side, and view it as something old foks do on the cruise ship or at the rec hall. Some of the people stuck in this mindset are casting agents, directors, or "hollywood" choreographers that don't want to turn down a chance to "fake" a ballroom routine.

I believe that most of the time, when a director approaches a choreographer, and asks, "can you put together partner dance sequence for this scene?" The choreographer answers, "Sure!" Thinking all he/she has to do is put some music on an pose the dancers around.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I wish more dancers with [championship] ballroom backgrounds were wired into hollywood, so that we'd see better partner-dancing as well as gain more respect.

[pygmalion]

That's very mild, by my ranting standards, Porfirio. When I rant, jumping up and down is generally involved. :oops: :lol:

That said, a couple rants of my own.

Rant #1. The lack of respect rant.

You're right. Dancesport athletes are not treated with the respect they deserve. Case in point, "Dance with Me," the Vanessa Williams movie, which was about ballroom dance, but didn't credit the champion ballroom dancers who danced as extras in the movie. Remember the quickstep scene, when Vanessa and company first arrived? I saw quite a few familiar faces twirling around the floor. Imagine my surprise when I checked the credits and the names were nowhere to be found. How much effort would it have taken to credit those dancers, and perhaps a dance organization or two?


Rant #2. My car salesman rant.
As long as dance teachers are left out there loose to establish their own standards for quality of instruction and treatment of students, it's going to be very hard to convince the rest of the world to take ballroom seriously as a discipline. To the general public, Joe Schmoe dance teacher down the street, with eight weeks of training, is the same as Joe Excellent with a ballroom pedigree as long as your arm. If ballroom as a discipline is ever going to get the respect it deserves, there needs to be a way of weeding out the "used car salesmen" dance teachers out there who are peddling a shoddy service in the name of ballroom dance.

Oooh! Jumping up and down begins now. :oops: :lol:

[pygmalion]

Man. I knew if I thought about it long enough, I'd never let myself get away with a true, unadulterated rant. I'm way too mild.

But I must post disclaimers nonetheless. There are a lot of good studios out there, and a lot of good teachers who started with the dance studio eight-week training program. Heck. I'd even considered taking that training at some point. The training is not the problem.

The mentality of some ballroom purveyors out there is a big problem. The standards are in many cases low or non-existent, and the focus is on selling more low-quality lessons, rather than in improving the quality of lessons until they sell themselves.

There. That's better. :wink:

[Porfirio Landeros]

Remember the quickstep scene, when Vanessa and company first arrived? I saw quite a few familiar faces twirling around the floor. Imagine my surprise when I checked the credits and the names were nowhere to be found. How much effort would it have taken to credit those dancers, and perhaps a dance organization or two?

Haahaa, my coach is dancing in that standard sequence (the yellow dress)! I can tell you that they got paid and continue to get royalties, but you're right... they didn't get the same credits as the Latin dancers, but there were sooooo many dance[sport] extras in the movie.

I was a dance extra in a movie, and didn't get credits, but I got paid a good rate because we were hired as "talent," not just extras. In the end, the scene got cut down because the crew could not get the non-dance extras to look comfortable in the scene; also they kept talking and disrupting the shoot. Oh well, at least I got to meet Denzel :)

In the meantime, GO YELLOW DRESS!

[pygmalion]

Oh ho. Now I'm really impressed. You met Denzel? :notworth: Just kidding. :lol:

But I will go back and watch that movie again, and check for the dance diva in the yellow dress. I think I remember who it is; I just want to check and be sure. Hmm. :D

[Sockhopper]

I've been a swing dancer (Lindy, WCS, Balboa; + Detroit Hustle & Carolina Shag) since 1998. As partner dances go, all ballroom dances look extremely affected to me. They run from totally pretentious to so silly- looking that I have to stop watching because I'm embarrassed for the dancers, many of whom are good dancers. I'm complaining about their dances, not the dancers.

Ballroom tango's sideway head yanks can't catch or show us the emotional depth of Argentine tango. Ballroom Hustle is 4-count - why do that when the pulsing 3-count is the very heart of every form of street Hustle? The ballroom version of WCS is about striking extravagantly false 'lines' that don't flow naturally from the dance - they look forced (and often aren't even led.) How about some transparent technique, an essential ingredient of dances based in our culture?

What I dislike most is that ballroom schools sell the dance they variously call "Jive", East Coast Swing, rock-and-roll, and swing - as Lindy Hop!!! Which name they call it depends on which dance the new customer is asking to learn. (Where did ballrooms get the idea that 'Jive' even approximates swing? Lindy Hop does not involve jumping with your knees pulled up towards your stomach or manic high-kicking. Lindy Hop does not look like horses prancing. Where's the essence of Lindy - the swingout, the swivels, the low posture, the syncopations that live in jazz or historical reference or hip-hop influences? Fine, sell a "rock-step, triple, triple" (I don't use 'quicks and slows' because a single beat of music deserves recognition) as a wedding dance. But to call it 'swing' is cultural terrorism.

Social dancing is a form of communication that grew within our culture, not in a ballroom school. Real partner-dances developed over decades and across thousands of miles in public dance venues by virtue of ordinary people responding to evolving musical styles and new forms of personal expression. It's related to feelings and vision, not an 'official' book that says what can be taught. The real dances that ballroom schools mimic, parody, and dumb-down - for commercial purposes - each have an integrity that thousands of $ in ballroom lessons can't give. (Ballroom schools teach good frame; beyond that, forget it.) Real dances respond to the music and move naturally.

[tsb]

I believe that most of the time, when a director approaches a choreographer, and asks, "can you put together partner dance sequence for this scene?" The choreographer answers, "Sure!" Thinking all he/she has to do is put some music on an pose the dancers around.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I wish more dancers with [championship] ballroom backgrounds were wired into hollywood, so that we'd see better partner-dancing as well as gain more respect.

i'm not so sure. watching ballroom dancing (and most partnered dancing in general), on film or live, is like watching nine innings of a shutout baseball game. unless you love the game enough already to appreciate the skill of the pitcher(s), the defensive positioning that goes on from hitter to hitter, you're likely to be bored; people would much rather watch home runs being hit. in the same way, the general public will not have the attention span to appreciate observing the dynamics of good partnering. so we see aerials, dips, drop, fancy footwork, etc. things that have little to do with real dancing.

there are few scenes, much less films where the action is focused totally on the dancing of the main characters. and when that is the case, more often than not, they have to block the scene and choose camera angles to minimize the shortcomings of the actor/non-dancer. case in point, just this evening, there was a repeat episode of everybody loves raymond that involved swing dancing. other than one aerial, all the shots of the main characters ended up being above the waist, and all the background dancers either did basics or some sort of aerial as a visual prop for the scene - and in general were there to frame shots but not distract from the dialogue or visual imagery desired.

i had occasion to work on an episode of gilmore girls a couple of years ago (an episode involving a 24 hour swing dance marathon - you can recognize me in various scenes but oddly enough, only in non-dance scenes - purple zoot suit & yellow tie) and i got to meet kenny ortega (dirty dancing, among others) as he was brought in the direct the episode. (he's a pretty good salsa dancer, btw.). we got a chance to schmooze during meal breaks & he shared about his organic approach to shooting dance scenes. for example, the scene in dirty dancing where jennifer grey keeps messing up was entirely real - she was actually trying to learn the move on film. this approach prompted him to fill the bulk of the background dancers not from SAG but to show up at the derby in hollywood and invite dancers of all skill levels - to simulate the varied skill levels you'd find in a small town 24 hour dance marathon. even so, we had choregraphed moves in the opening scene where he pulled the camera back down the dance floor and various couples did flashy aerials which built up to a sight gag of 6'6" ted rooney (who goes to my church, btw) trying a fancy move with 5' sally struthers that ends up with ted running off the floor trying to catch up with her.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Now, even in this discussion, we're seeing just what I was talking about. The social side of ballroom dancing is being mixed up with the technical competitive discipline. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinions, as they are derived from your personal experiences, but I will tell you that a GOOD ballroom school will not market Jive as Lindy... they are indeed very different dances. That's just as bad as the opportunistic choreographers I was describing - if you don't know it, don't pretend you do just for a buck ;-)

People have to start looking at the competitive ballroom dances as a performing art. There are exact foot positions, techniques for doing the dances "right", along with certain leway for individual creativity and expression. Ballet is a classical performing art, that was created with the idea of making the body into perfect lines and shapes, even if these shapes are un-natural and awkward at times. The highest form of ballroom dancing is the same in a lot of respects. Even though the roots of competitive ballroom dancing came from the passionate masses, the high-end, stylized forms are meant for entertainment and artistic expression.

Kenny Ortega is awesome, and I especially love his contribution in the movie Salsa. That movie was ahead of it's time, and NOT an example of the movies that crap out when it comes to getting some real dancers to back the movie up.

As for the Jive reference, I may be putting my neck on the line (in the ballroom community), but I'll give you my opinion... Jive was completely made up by people that were trying to "fix" swing, and it didn't need fixing. They applied ballet, gymnastics, and in some cases, acrobatics, to make the dance more "exciting", in their opinion. I think it's too contrived, but the best Jives that I've ever seen danced actually borrow more and more from the authentic swings like Lindy and East Coast. Just know that it's a completely different dance - I won't pretend that it's the dance that black Americans enjoyed back-in-the-day.

Anyway, I bring the following up on just about any topic where I feel the heat is being turned onto ballroom dancing... Those that have really mastered ballroom dancing DO look like they're ejoying themselves and convey the appropriate flavor for the music they are dancing to. The ballroom dancers that you run into on a daily basis are probably not in this class (yet). Many won't even get there, and they may not even want to - they could be happy looking stiff, just content will pulling laps around the floor. Just keep an open mind for when you see one of the top dancers in the country, or the world, and you'll notice that there is something unique and special to be offered :D

How's THAT for a rant? :oops:

[SDsalsaguy]

How's THAT for a rant? :oops:
Darn fine if I do say so myself! :lol:

Also, as far as the content of your post... amen!

Just as one point of clarrification: Ballroom Jive evolved as European dancers were first exposed to ECS and then applied International Ballroom Latin technique to it (don't ask me why! :?).