dancing as a 2nd language

[dragon3085]

I just wanted to get some agreement or disagreement on a thought I had the other day. I'm working on some more dance stuff to post on my website. The other day while I was studying spanish, it occured to me that dancing too is like a language. Different dances are different languages and different versions of a dance, like salsa on 1 or on 2- are the same of dialects. if you and a patner speak the same language your golden, if yous speak diffrent dialects, you can still dance but someone is going to probably have to change, and if your speaking salsa, and she's speaking hustle, there is gonna be a problem. Do you guys and gal feel this is a pretty good analogy or is it stretching a bit?

Thanks
Patrick

[pygmalion]

That's a great analogy. I saw a reference to dance as a form of communication. I can't remember where that link was, although of course I'll google. But I think that article was, and you are absolutely right, on a lot of levels.

Hustle versus salsa is one way you could apply the analogy.

Another way I've looked at it is in terms of how we learn dance. The individual components, like basic step patterns, could be letters, that are formed into amalgamations or words. When they're phrased with the music you have dance sentences. Add some styling and technique, and you have punctuation and grammar. But it's only when you add imagination and individuality that you have real communication, whether in terms of verbal language or dance language. Now I'm really out on a limb. But I think you're definitely on the right path.

[dragon3085]

You beat me to my next point. :-) I come from a martial arts background and the essesence of Karate is kata, which is a pre-arranged set of techniques. What most students don't realize is that in the old days you were shown a kata and that was it, you did that over and over for years and that how you picked up your techniques. Instead of making someone throw 300 punches and kicks you gave them a form to pratice over in over where all that was incorporated. Now many american karateka got in their head that they had to everyting they learned in kata in the same pre-arranged form they learned it. This isn't true, kata is just like a book of words and once you learn them you are free to mix and match, its assumed you will, but for some reason's we american espcially have to be told step by step everything to do. Its the same in dance, I see a lot of my fellow students who have been learning almost as long as I have (about 4 years) still struggling because with techniques all because to them and underturn has to be come after a x-body lead or back breack- or in whatever order they learned it in. Instead of looking at the amalgamations as a sentence with new words. And then taking those words out and building their own sentences they wait to essentially be told what to say and then parrot it.
Am I Making sense? My basic point is that a dance technique is equivilent to a word and we can string these words together to make sentences and if a dance is a language, we find that just as in real languages, many have to same words that you can interchange. So you can use a lot of your Rumba vocab in waltz and vice versa and hustle words in salsa.

Patrick

[borikensalsero]

Way Sweet Pat. :notworth:

You are not stretching it by any means of the imagination. Dancing is just that, a form of communication between two people achieving an understanding beyond words. Just like in a verbal conversation we have to speak the same language and take time to listen to each other to understand one another, otherwise, we’ll end up with a blurred understanding of the verbal interactions. It fits so well with dancing, I call it the speech of the soul portrayed in physical harmony in search of uniform connection/oneness with one another.

[twodance]

One definition of dancing is 'non verbal communication'

[Sagitta]

I like it!! I like it!! This is what I have thought about dance all along, just like playing musical instruments. Since I'm so bad with learning spoken languages and instruments I was happy to find learning dance a lot easier and more fun!! :)

[danceguy]

Wonderful post - thank you for sharing Patrick. This is one of the reasons that I don't like to talk while I'm dancing - I like to "listen" with my other senses and let the natural language of my body "speak" with that of my partner :)

This is something I'm working with a lot since I don't know many movements...so I'm trying to put some variety in what I do know... :P

[tsb]

I just wanted to get some agreement or disagreement on a thought I had the other day. I'm working on some more dance stuff to post on my website. The other day while I was studying spanish, it occured to me that dancing too is like a language. Different dances are different languages and different versions of a dance, like salsa on 1 or on 2- are the same of dialects. if you and a patner speak the same language your golden, if yous speak diffrent dialects, you can still dance but someone is going to probably have to change, and if your speaking salsa, and she's speaking hustle, there is gonna be a problem. Do you guys and gal feel this is a pretty good analogy or is it stretching a bit?

hmm. i understand that salsa & hustle as i know them share roots in their development in NY & if you turn off the music and watched two couples dancing side by side, one doing salsa, one doing hustle they actually look a lot more alike than you'd expect. the difference in this case would be the music and the underlying rhythm. however, in other cases i've seen people doing either cha-cha or wcs to the same song depending on their own preferences.

the communication in dance IS a language.

http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/intro.html

says a lot about it more eloquently than i. but if i want my partner to understand that i want her to break on '1' there are techniques (words, adjectives) i can employ as a leader to influence my follower's intertia & momentum. in the most extreme case, when i get a follower, who is a complete beginner, who's all over the place trying to shake body parts all over the place and stepping to a, ahem, unique tempo, i go into open position, hands out and as low as possible and gently flexing her wrists to get her palms facing the floor. eventually she gets the hint and calms down a bit. when i inhale & also shift my weight to my right foot (and her left) on '4', while keeping her arms outside her frame, and add a gentle impulse to her right hand towards her right hip on the downbeat, i've just strung together a sentence that says "please break backwards on '1' on your right foot". in this instance the technique of keeping her hands outside her frame would be like employing an adverb to enhance the clarity & meaning of the verb (the force towards her hip); even if she was inclined to have "spaghetti arms" and allow the force to cause her elbow to go past her frame, by choosing the right adverb, in this case direction of force, i don't have to speak loudly. of course this doesn't mean she has to listen... but she usually does. and after a couple of measures she understands the rhythm i'm hoping to lead. then i can usually get that same partner to execute the proper footwork for a cross body lead once she gets the QQS muscle memory down:

(in extreme cases when she can't wait until '5', i shift my grip and move her right hand onto her left hip and hold it there on '4' otherwise i)

- shift my hold on her right hand (thumb on top, middle finger on her palm kinda like an aikido grip), bring her hand to about waist level (low enough so she can't possibly try and turn underneath her arm) , her wrist flexed so that her palm is more of less pointing to where i hope she'll end up & on five lead the right hand forward and slightly down and when necessary, give a little impulse with the heel of my hand towards her left armpit. i've just said "please take a large step forward on your left foot and keep your shoulders square to the slot"

- same sentence "continue down the slot taking a step forward on your right foot"

- as soon as their weight is over their feet on the 'and' of '6' i again use the minimum amount of force necessary with the heel of my right hand underneath her left arm which says:

"now please pivot and close on '7'"

the cool part is that while i learned this language in the context of becoming a salsa dancer, i have sinced adapted these techniques to create leadable release moves in other dances, particularly foxtrot & waltz so i do a lot fred & ginger type moves.



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[Sagitta]

You've given me a lot to think about tsb!! I dance with quite a few beginners, so I should be spending more time on improving my body commuication skills in dancing. :) The advice about follows moving about all over the place resonantes...


When we speak we don't say one sentence, or part of a sentence, stop abruptly then continue. In the same way when we dance it is not one move, then another. A dance to a song is like a paragraph. We the dancers provide the content, while the music provides the punctuation.

[SwinginBoo]

DSL - Dancing as a Second Lanaguage.:tongue: Awesome!

[tsb]

You've given me a lot to think about tsb!! I dance with quite a few beginners, so I should be spending more time on improving my body commuication skills in dancing. :) The advice about follows moving about all over the place resonantes...

in my experience most people try to simulate cuban motion by waggling their fannies. it's not a pretty sight! :) in general moving your/her own elbows farther away from your/her body while you're connected will either bring your partner closer to you or at the very least minimize the size of her backstep away from you. so does keeping her hands as low as possible, with her palms facing the floor.

it occurs to me that someone versed in something like aikido would have a lot of insight into how we can use a minimal amount of force to convey signals to someone else's frame.

When we speak we don't say one sentence, or part of a sentence, stop abruptly then continue. In the same way when we dance it is not one move, then another. A dance to a song is like a paragraph. We the dancers provide the content, while the music provides the punctuation.

i would submit that each musical phrase in a song is more like a paragraph, each figure within that phrase being sentences.

[Sarah]

it occurs to me that someone versed in something like aikido would have a lot of insight into how we can use a minimal amount of force to convey signals to someone else's frame.


You're singing my song. ;) I can heartily recommend 3 or 4 years of aikido training as a preliminary excercise before starting to learn any form of partner dancing. For some unknown reason a lot of people seem to find this impractical. :?

I've known a couple of people other than myself who've done this, and they do make excellent - intuitive and kind - leaders and followers.

Cheers
Sarah

[tsb]

it occurs to me that someone versed in something like aikido would have a lot of insight into how we can use a minimal amount of force to convey signals to someone else's frame.


You're singing my song. ;) I can heartily recommend 3 or 4 years of aikido training as a preliminary excercise before starting to learn any form of partner dancing. For some unknown reason a lot of people seem to find this impractical. :?

I've known a couple of people other than myself who've done this, and they do make excellent - intuitive and kind - leaders and followers.

Cheers
Sarah

they don't need to study aikido (i haven't), but a basic grasp of the concepts can definitely improve the clarity & deftness of a lead.

it's become more or less automatic to me but giving it some thought i realize that in all my open position hand-holds i'm generally making contact with (and transmitting my lead through) only two fingers (and the thumb when influencing wrist angle/rotation).

of course, like any science - it can be used for good or evil! it's possible to hijack a partner's inertia and lead them into moves they'd prefer to avoid, especially dips & drops.

[Blondie]

Rather than a second language, I see dancing as an elaboration of our given spoken language. Through interpretive and rhythmic movement, we can convey meaning and emotion--(that is to say, if we are successful!). Words may not always convey feelings and emotion or may not have much meaning to some people. Whereas dancing can touch others through its movement and passion. :D