Ballroom dance and elitism?

[pygmalion]

Take a look at this article, then come back and sound off.
Nina, the author, thinks that ballroom dancers are an elitist bunch, particularly when it comes to looking down on street dancers. I think that's a common perception. But is it reality? What do you think? Are there things that ballroom dancers do that add to that perception?

http://www.tosalsa.com/goto.asp?http://www.tosalsa.com/forum/features/article020618nina_canyoufeelme.html

[tasche]

I think the article misses the point that street dancing and ballroom do have difference purposes.

The point of street dancing is primarly enoyment and self achievement and just the general high of dancing whereas part of the poitn of ballroom is have set figure which are done a certain way and sometimes in a certain order. Alto fo the syllabus figures come from the competitive side of ballroom regardless of whether the participant chooses to compete.

Is either style less valid? No I dont think

Are ballroom ppl more snobby probably but I think some snobby people you encounter would act that way regardless.

[pygmalion]

Actually, I think Miss Nina takes an unnecessarily confrontational tone and misses quite a few points. That's why I linked to the article. :lol: :lol: I think we can discuss your points, tasche, at length. I think you're right. Nina missed quite a bit, I think. Maybe she'd benefit by taking a few ballroom lessons or watching some competitions. Or, better yet, joining dance forums so she can get to see a little of the other perspective.

On the other hand, I know some very, very elitist ballroom dancers who aren't helping the situation any.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Ballroom is to Street dancing as Porno is to Making love.

I would much rather watch porn than the "average Joe" honeymoon video.

[peachexploration]

Unfortunately, I've seen and heard the bottom quotes time and time again.
"Where Ballroom dancers think street dancers dont follow rules because they dont know how.....
Well the kicker to this statement is, there are rules, just maybe foreign to the ballroom dancer.

...the street dancers think that Ballroom has the rules to guide people who cant dance without them[/i]."
And the kicker statement to this one is, the set of rules for ballroom are quite different than the street dancers

This is really no different than the ON2, ON1 foolishness that goes on. I personally think both areas have so much to offer. It's just as Boriken says, whatever your preference. But, as long as there is human nature, this form of competiveness will exist. Great article and topic as always, Jenn. :D :D :D

[pygmalion]

On the other hand, I know some very, very elitist ballroom dancers who aren't helping the situation any.

I'll give a couple examples of seemingly harmless biases that ballroom dancers express, but that give the impression of elitism to non-ballroom people.

1. A ballroom friend of mine who absolutely refuses to dance in a nightclub. He will only go to ballroom dances, and gladly tells everyone that. What's his deal? You can actually do many ballroom dances in a nightclub, and nightclubs are in no way inferior to ballrooms. They're just different.

2. A former teacher of mine who dismissed nightclub freestyle dancing as "booty dancing." Imagine his surprise when I responded by saying, "Yup. That's my favorite kind of dancing. :twisted: :lol:

My view is, mutual respect is the way to go.

Thoughts?

[peachexploration]

On the other hand, I know some very, very elitist ballroom dancers who aren't helping the situation any.

My view is, mutual respect is the way to go.

Thoughts?

Exactly, Jenn. :D

[twodance]

The ballroom dances of today where the street dances of the past. As for the people who are the 'elite'...a little learning is a dangerous thing !! :roll:

[Adwiz]

I read the article and didn't see her putting down ballroom, though I can understand why it would easily be taken that way. Perhaps I'm just used to dealing with people who have confrontational personal styles. I think she just says that they are different and that she prefers the raw passion of street dancing as compared to the precision of ballroom. The movie "Center Stage" kind of touches on that distinction, though it refers to ballet vs. street dancing, where the contrast is even more pronounced.

Actually, while she did miss many points because of her bias she did make good points that I agree with. Ballroom is exciting to watch but does lack the raw emotional power of street dancing. It's different. I wouldn't trade it for the world because I love the precision and skill involved, but I can see what she means. In Standard, the partners very rarely ever look at each other. Someone with a street dancing passion would think that's aloof and distant. In Latin ballroom, there is more of a connection, but in all but the world's top competitors you see people concentrating more on their steps than on each other.

Neither style is better than the other, and as "Center Stage" pointed out, each one can teach the other something valuable. But I didn't take her opinion as an attack on ballroom, just her explanation of why she didn't do it (though in that lack of doing she missed much of its value).

[Sagitta]

I liked the last paragraph the best:

"We see the Ballroom crowd having fun and looking good, but we dont see that fire we look for in the streets. We know that they arent going to let us in, or that no matter how open we are they cannot share that passion with us.I can dance Ballroom style and when I do a good job I am damned proud, I give myself a 10. But when I dance in the clubs and its great, its like falling in love;I go home and dream about it like a giddy schoolgirl with her first crush."

Here Nina clearly says that she knows both and has done both, but here preference is for street dancing. There are street dancers who think that ballroom dancers are snobs, and there are ballroom dancers who think that street dancers are snobs! I enjoy both, as Nina, as both fulfill different purposes.

[Adwiz]

I liked the last paragraph the best... Here Nina clearly says that she knows both and has done both, but here preference is for street dancing.

Yeah, I noticed that too but I don't think she really does both in the sense that she fully understands what ballroom is about. Maybe, but my guess is that she just happens to go to ballroom social dances from time to time. That's not really the same, and would explain why she can't see the passion that it brings with it. It's a different kind of passion, more engaging of the mind than purely experiential perhaps.

[dragon3085]

[quote="Sagitta"]I liked the last paragraph the best:

"We see the Ballroom crowd having fun and looking good, but we dont see that fire we look for in the streets. We know that they arent going to let us in, or that no matter how open we are they cannot share that passion with us.I can dance Ballroom style and when I do a good job I am damned proud, I give myself a 10. But when I dance in the clubs and its great, its like falling in love;I go home and dream about it like a giddy schoolgirl with her first crush."

Here I question why she is so concerned about what the other guys are doing or why she feels they should be concerned with her apparent need to see something in their eyes. When I go to dance I go to have fun. I am responsible for seeing that I have fun I couldn't care a rat butt what anybody else is doing or how they are dancing so long as it doesn't impede my ability to enjoy myself. She makes a lot of assumptions in this article that are just false or gross over generalizations. I think maybe she had some bad experience with some 'INDIVIDUALS' and now blames an entire group for it. What is sad is that this happens on both side of the fence, but it also reminds my of a lecture I heard from the Philosopher Alan Watts. "For an In group to exist they have to have an Out group.' Ballroom and street like to pick on eacher but truth is they are more alike then they are different.

[danceguy]

Yikes, someone missed their siesta! :shock:

Thank you for sharing this article Pygmalion - it was an interested read but there are a few things I noticed that I'll share here.

I'm curious whether it was deliberate or not for her writing style, ie using "u" instead of "you", as well as the overall immature tone and use of strong language. As I have done a lot of editing of written material and used to work for a professional writer, I am pretty critical of written works.

I really frown upon the broken language like I saw in this article - if you are trying to write a serious, professional article, writing like this is not going to gain you much respect, at least IMHO.

The author makes some good points, but I wonder about her exact definition of a "street dancer." Have not both ballroom and street dancing been influenced by one another? Haven't all dances started "in the street?"

Although these days I haven't been attending Ballroom dances, I do not think they are inferior, rather its just not what I'm interested in learning right now. And I'm always smiling as I see some of the best dancers from my old Ballroom venues that show up at the Salsa clubs and get out there and groove with everyone.

Steet, ballroom - every group has their good people and bad people. Sure, some Ballroom dancers may be seen as "elitist snobs" while another group of street dancers could be just as cliquish and unfriendly in their own right.

This shouldn't be seen as a war...if someone does something you dislike, just leave them be and do what is right for you! I used to think that ALL dancers of any kind were snobs...but now that's water under the bridge, since I'm a dancer too, and I love it! :P

But it will never compare to ten hot minutes with the one you love.

I can't help but comment on this though...only 10 minutes? I guess some people rush through everything in life... :wink: :D

Best,

SG

[Porfirio Landeros]

One thing that may kind of affirm the ballroom elitism theory is that built into the USABDA competitive membership status, is a proficiency called Elite Status. You attain this status when earn enough proficiency points (by placing well in competitions) and by making a United States final.

I guess I'm an "Elite" ballroom dancer now ;)

I think it's kind of funny that the author of the article rates herself as a 10 on her ballroom aptitude, when I thought street dancers danced to no scale.

Also, I think generalizations are made off of mediocre to poor ballroom dancers: "All ballroom dancers are stiff," "All ballroom dancers look too serioius," "Ballroom dancers can only dance with their own kind," etc. etc...

It is the goal of the best ballroom dancers is to take their structured knowledge and be creative with it - make it their own. The dancers that win competitions actually DO look like their having fun. They DO look passionate, and even in LOVE!

The ballroom dancers I believe get the most street publicity are still trying to get comfortable in their own skin. So, give them a break, and let them have fun their own way, just as you want to have fun YOUR way ;)

I enjoy social dancing VERY much. I still go to Salsa clubs as well as ballroom socials. So I can speak from experience that there are definitely cliques in both circles.

[DancingMommy]

Actually, while she did miss many points because of her bias she did make good points that I agree with. Ballroom is exciting to watch but does lack the raw emotional power of street dancing. It's different. I wouldn't trade it for the world because I love the precision and skill involved, but I can see what she means. In Standard, the partners very rarely ever look at each other.

I'm not sure I totally agree with you. There is an incredible amount of raw passion in Standard (esp. when dancing with your mate), it just isn't always visible to the naked eye. For us, we take the intense passion and channel it into pure energy and use that to "drive" our dancing. As far as "eye contact" goes, dancing is like making love. You don't always have your eyes locked on each other when you are in the throes of passion, but you are OH SO AWARE of each other via full body contact. The eyes aren't the only source of connection... ;)

[DancingMommy]

I read the article and I'm going to make this long-windy and wordy, but I think that it's the only way to get across the points I have to make. Since *I* am Nina, too, I feel I have every right to express my biased opinions as well... So here goes. For ease of reading, when I have a quote from the article, it will have a ... immediately before and after it.

...
In Ballroom it is possbile to dance incredibly, to move so quickly and so skillfully that it amazes all who see it. But in Ballroom, and its little brother of the streets, "LA style salsa", there are more barriers to greatness. Perhaps this gives Ballroom dancers that feeling of superiority and elitism that bothers us in the streets.

"Well", they sniff, "sure she's a great dancer, but how hard IS it to be a great STREET dancer?" Then they practice their steps, their routines, their moves until they have it pat. But change the song, the partner, the floor and they are thrown. If they miss a step or dont come out of a turn right, they wait till a new song and try again for perfection. So many chances to dance, so few to dance well.
...

This is not true of ALL ballroom dancers and I think the author is naive at best to assume so. A good dancer is a good dancer - regardless of the situation. Only undearable perfectionists get bent over not getting right every time. And let me tell you, I've seen it in street dancers, ballet dancers, all kinds of dancers. It isn't limited to "Ballroomies".

...
Are there women who dance better than me? Certainly! Are there women who get more dances than me? Not many. I dont get upset when we make a mistake, or we lose the beat. If they throw something out there and I cant keep up, I still try.I dont dance exclusively with partners I already know I can dance with. I dont dance exclusively with partners who seem to dance like I do. And when I dance with someone and the entire dance was riddled with mistakes, i dont say no when he asks me again.
...

Oh my... I've had the same experiences and I'm an "Elitist Ballroomie"... What's a girl to do? Becoming a better dancer (in general) is something I've aspired to and one of the ways to do that is by doing the above. it isn't just limited to the "street dancers".

...
A good street dancer can dance anywhere. So the floors arent right, doesnt matter, you adapt. There have been nights when I took my shoes off and kicked them to the side because they werent working with the floor and my partners style. The floor may be rubber, wood, vinyl, concrete, grass, sand, or even carpet. But we adapt and keep going. We may have a small crowded floor requiring tight tiny steps and razor sharp whips and turns, maybe we will have a huge floor allowing us to crouch down, dance about, whirl, prance, and show out.I have to admit, I like a lot of floor space and sometimes my partners get sointo showing me off that we end up clearing the floor, but I can also dance in a space 12 inches square.
...

A good DANCER can dance anywhere, anytime, anyhow. This isn't just limited to the "street dancer". I can dance in tennis shoese, no shoes, sandals, flip flops, whatever and I can dance *any* style in the aforementioned footgear. I've danced Lindy Hop in high heeled clogs and danced ballroom on the beach without shoes.

...
In ballroom the shoes and the surface are very important, a lot of things simply cannot be done without the proper balance of friction and smoothness. If u take your shoes off or change them it can totally throw off your stride to the point that you cannot dance well. This applies to street salsa also, but the difference is that in teh streets it isnt about MOVES, its about the total look and feel of the dance. Even with only the basic footwork a salsero can perform beautifully.
...

Ok, I concede that for beginners, this might be true, but for beginning street dancers, there are also things that might undermine confidence as well... IE being snubbed by a "better" dancer. But like I said before, a good dancer can dance in any situation. If tap danced on slick linoleum, fallen, and gotten back up without missing a beat. It didn't throw me off in the least. You keep on smiling cause "stuff" happens. I crashed to the floor on a slick dance floor in a latin club and been ok, too. You just get over it. There are often things you as the dancer can't control and you learn to adapt. A good DANCER can do that.

...
I love to dance, it is my passion and I try to make it my art. When I dance well people will sometimes stop me before I leave and tell me,'I just wanted to tell you, you dance beautifully". I used to dance for myself and my partners, but now I have started dancing also for those who watch. And i like to think that when I dance you can SEE the music.
...

Well, sister, you aren't the ONLY person in the world that has happened to. It's happened to me and oops.. I'm one of those pesky "Elitist Ballroomies". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

...
Ballroom dancing does require good partner skills, but they are not the same as in Street ancing. The focus is on the dance, the moves, the tricks and not on the interaction between the dancers. It is so stylized and formal that while u can see that they have a passion for the dance, you dont see the passion for each other, for the music. There is always a distance, a separatness that never leaves. Sure they touch each other closely and initimately, even look at each other and may FEEL passion. But they dont lose control, they never reach the Other Side. That ecstasy, that primal rush isnt there. When suddenly the music grabs you and you throw back your head, close your eyes and lose yourself in the dance. THAT is why those of us in the streets aint leaving it for NOTHING.
...

And this is pure unadulterated bull-hocky. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that only "street dancers" were able to tap into that rush of passion. I guess that leaves out a lot of other types of dancers too - jazz, modern, lyrical, etc - who also have tons of passion, they just portray it differently. I don't have to wiggle my arse in public to show how much passion I have.

...
Dancing is the same, when the music moves you, when it overwhelms you, when it threatens to overtake you, you have to let it out. And to share that with another person who feels the same is a gift. We are alone on this earth and the moments that we can enter the soul of another and see and feel as they do are rare. That is what we see when we see dancers. We see the Ballroom crowd having fun and looking good, but we dont see that fire we look for in the streets. We know that they arent going to let us in, or that no matter how open we are they cannot share that passion with us.
...

That seems to be a personal problem to me... There are many aspects of passion and many ways of showing it. You don't always have to be overflowing with sexual energy to the point of people seeing how "hot to go" you are.

...
I can dance Ballroom style and when I do a good job I am damned proud, I give myself a 10. But when I dance in the clubs and its great, its like falling in love;I go home and dream about it like a giddy schoolgirl with her first crush.
...

Any time I dance I have this experience.

I think it is terribly naive of dancers from different sectors to criticise and/or make blanket statements about other dance disciplines. It does absolutely nothing to build solidarity in the dance community at large and it just plain p!sses me off....

[Taita]

Normally,

I would refrain from commenting on the rantings of the ignorant. I'll make an exception this time in order to simply agree with DancingMommy

[DancingMommy]

Normally,

I would refrain from commenting on the rantings of the ignorant. I'll make an exception this time in order to simply agree with DancingMommy

:bow:

Thanks! I feel pretty strongly about this since I'm a former "Ballereject" and have studied so many forms of dance both formally and informally.

I just don't think there is room for snobbery in any form of dance. ;)

[SDsalsaguy]

I ditto Taita.

[pygmalion]

DancingMommy, you are priceless! Oh, the time and effort you took to refute (the other :( ) Nina into the oblivion where she belongs. :twisted: :lol:

The reason for posting the article, in the first place, was to expose and discuss the impact that such ignorant rantings (thanks Taita) can have. Miss Nina knows not what she speaks, but that didn't stop hundreds, and likely thousands, of unknowing people from reading and agreeing with her nonsense. Scary, isn't it?

The irony, to me, is the blatant bias Miss Nina shows in her article. Umm, so street dancing is superior, sexier, more passionate? So who's the elitist now?

[pygmalion]

One thing that may kind of affirm the ballroom elitism theory is that built into the USABDA competitive membership status, is a proficiency called Elite Status. You attain this status when earn enough proficiency points (by placing well in competitions) and by making a United States final.

I guess I'm an "Elite" ballroom dancer now ;)



Sorry I missed this post before, Porfirio. Elite and elitist are two different things. Elite, as in creme de la creme -- that I believe of you. Elitist? Is in the eyes of (the other :( ) Nina. :twisted: :lol:

[DancingMommy]

DancingMommy, you are priceless! Oh, the time and effort you took to refute (the other :( ) Nina into the oblivion where she belongs. :twisted: :lol:

Thanks so much! I was so furious when I rad that article, I wanted to strangle that... err... interloping doppelganger......

And I totally ditto the poster who ranked on the grammatical/spelling/syntactical errors. I was finding myself wanting to correct the errors in the quotes, but I figured I'd leave 'em be....

[Adwiz]

I'm not sure I totally agree with you. There is an incredible amount of raw passion in Standard (esp. when dancing with your mate), it just isn't always visible to the naked eye.

I was specifically referring to what people see when they watch a dance performance. If those dancing didn't have passion, they shouldn't be on the floor, IMHO!

[DancingMommy]

I see.

Also, it depends a lot on how you "perceive" passion. I can watch "Burn The Floor" and see tons of passion, but to someone who is prejudiced against ballroom dance, they might not see it. ;)

[msc]

I agree with Taita, Jonathan, and DM, but it must be said that a great deal of ability is required to truly look good and display passion on the ballroom floor. I can understand how Nina might arrive at her conclusions, though I disagree with them.

[pygmalion]

That's a good point, msc. I remember the first time I took a non-dancing friend to a ballroom dance exhibition, and he said exactly the same thing Nina said. "Nobody is dancing with any feeling. You're all stiff." The thing is, all of us were silver level dancers or below. We were on the path to feeling and expressiveness in our dancing. We just weren't there yet.

[ninaloca]

[quote=pygmalion;23797]Take a look at this article, then come back and sound off.
Nina, the author, thinks that ballroom dancers are an elitist bunch, particularly when it comes to looking down on street dancers. I think that's a common perception. But is it reality? What do you think? Are there things that ballroom dancers do that add to that perception?


Well, hello my dears.I took time off to have a baby but I am BACK now.(and posting to long dead threads)

I love ballroom and I love street dancing. I am not confused about either one of them. As a street dancer, I want it to stay street.I dont want to see it sterilized and standardized.And yes,there are elitist ballroom dancers. There are also elitist street dancers who spend all day and night bickering over the 1 or the 2.
I wouldnt want to see ballroom turn into street dancing, I'm sure most ballroom dancers dont. I dont want to see street dancing turned into ballroom. I appreciate both forms for what they are.

Anyone who thinks my desire for the 2 to remain separate is some indication of a dislike or disrespect for ballroom is ill informed and confused. Yes, I prefer to dance street, but thats simply my personal taste. Its what I like to do best. Hey, I like my red sox and my white so equally so but that doesnt mean I want the red ones to bleed in the washer and turn all the white ones pink, ya dig?
So when I say I love my white sox and dont want them all pink and rosy, dont take that tomean I hate red sox.It just aint so.

[ninaloca]

DancingMommy, you are priceless! Oh, the time and effort you took to refute (the other :( ) Nina into the oblivion where she belongs. :twisted: :lol:

The reason for posting the article, in the first place, was to expose and discuss the impact that such ignorant rantings (thanks Taita) can have. Miss Nina knows not what she speaks, but that didn't stop hundreds, and likely thousands, of unknowing people from reading and agreeing with her nonsense. Scary, isn't it?

The irony, to me, is the blatant bias Miss Nina shows in her article. Umm, so street dancing is superior, sexier, more passionate? So who's the elitist now?

Oh gee, sorry. Didnt mean to offend. Yes, I prefer street dancing. Ignorant? Nah. The article wasnt meant for public consumption but was requested by a site owner and published before I had the chance to clean it up. I wrote it for myself to express my love for street dancing and toeplain why many of us do not want to see it become more structured and standardized.

Are yousaying there ARE no differences in the 2 "styles"? If there are differences, do you prefer your ballroom to be a certain way? The problem is that for may "street dancers", many ballroom dancers can be very haughty and approach us as if we were all ignorant untrained hooligans simply because we prefer a certain style. Ignoring the fact that a great many of us are pretty good at BOTH styles, but simply enjoy each for different aspects.

What I love about ballroom isnt the same as what I love about street dancing and I do not apologize for that at all. At the same time, when I want to do ballroom or watch ballroom, I dont apologize for appreciating ITS finer points and dont care what street salseros have to say. But that doesnt mean Iwant to see either variety morph into the other.

[ninaloca]

I see.

Also, it depends a lot on how you "perceive" passion. I can watch "Burn The Floor" and see tons of passion, but to someone who is prejudiced against ballroom dance, they might not see it. ;)

Prejudice? No. Preference? Yes. Whether one wants subtle passion or overt passion is simply a matter of taste.And I do,in general, prefer the raw overt passion of street dancing. If you prefer the more understated subtle elegance of ballroom to salsa is that an uninformed ignorant preudice or a personal preference?

[ninaloca]

Thanks so much! I was so furious when I rad that article, I wanted to strangle that... err... interloping doppelganger......

And I totally ditto the poster who ranked on the grammatical/spelling/syntactical errors. I was finding myself wanting to correct the errors in the quotes, but I figured I'd leave 'em be....

I feel the same way when I read it. The article was meant for me and no one else,I shared it with a friend who asked to use it on his site and it was posted before I was able to refine and edit it. When writing for myself its more important to get the words out and edit later than to make sure the grammar is perfect. Later, when I want to use my works, I edit and proofread.

I dont really worry about it or peoples perceptions,my published works are all grammatically correct. I'm an excellent writer and actually qualified to teach composition. Too often people let the style blind them to the substance. Most published works arent published in draft form and require significant refinement before final approval is granted.So if you judge the content,which you disagree with, based on the fact that it is draft, you may be missing the point.

[skwiggy]

The problem is that for may "street dancers", many ballroom dancers can be very haughty and approach us as if we were all ignorant untrained hooligans simply because we prefer a certain style. Ignoring the fact that a great many of us are pretty good at BOTH styles, but simply enjoy each for different aspects.


The same happens in reverse, quite a bit. Ballroom dancers can be treated as overtrained uptight showdogs by "street dancers" simply because we prefer a different style. For the record, I love "street dancing". I love dancing it, and I love watching it. And just because I have chosen to spend my time learning and practicing a more precise and structured form of dance, doesn't mean I'm not able to do and appreciate a more informal and improvisational one. And it doesn't mean I don't feel the music and the expression of it down to the depths of my soul.

Why can't we all just get along? :)

All dancing is great, and the important thing is that we dance.

[reb]

Why can't we all just get along? :)

All dancing is great, and the important thing is that we dance.
Skwiggy - I'm with you 100%.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Well, it's nice that this was brought back up. This was an interesting article, even though I disagree with the author's perception of ballroom, especially the comparison on porn vs. making love. When I think of ballroom and passion, the expression "still water runs deep" automatically comes to mind. Yeah, it does not have the outwards expressiveness of a street dance, with a lot of improvisations, no set rules, etc. (sounds messy to me, OK, my bias is showing), but it has this precision and power which I love to watch and I since I know what goes into it, I can appreciate it even more. With street dancing, I usually see people having fun and it's great that they are, but it's not for me.

[samina]

what an interesting thread! glad to see it revived...

i love paradox, so i love my ballroom & i love my street dancing... the rigor of "high-technique" and the "down-wit-it" of letting loose.
porn vs. making luv...? it all depends on the mood & the positions of the stars. life is so unbelievably rich & varied, & i wouldn't want to miss any of it.

i go home after a night of salsa or clubbing and i can feel unbelievably in love with life.

i go home after ballroom dancing and i can feel unbelievably in love with life.

no diff. all good.
:)

[Joe]

What's wrong with a little pr0n?

[Peaches]

Nothin' at all, babe...nothin' at all.

[fascination]

except not here, wink

[ballroom4life]

Okay, honestly, I'm a little offended by her article.:mad:

I am a hip hop "street" dancer and I am taking ballroom. Of course, sometimes there is more spontenaeity in street dancing, HOWEVER, I find that in ballroom, to have perfect technique is extremely difficult. In fact, I find it easier to "do your own thing" than to do a coreographed routine.

And as of the porn thing, has she not read all of our threads on "falling in love with my dance teacher" ?

[delamusica]

The same happens in reverse, quite a bit. Ballroom dancers can be treated as overtrained uptight showdogs by "street dancers" simply because we prefer a different style.

This is exactly what I couldn't get out of my head when reading this article. My ballroom friends and teachers have never been suprised to hear that I go to salsa clubs and hip-hop clubs and swing clubs and country bars and techno clubs and what have you for fun and to relax, even when they themselves don't enjoy it. But many a street dancer has expressed utter disbelief that I can dance spontaneously and freely when they find out that I'm a ballroom dancer.

It goes both ways, and the article really didn't acknowledge that at all. All about those "ballroom snobs." And there are some. But there are just as many (or more) "street snobs."



(BTW, Peaches - "snobs" is totally one of those words that is looking ridiculous now that I've written it a couple of times. It's reminding me of Dr. Seuss.)

[fascination]

And as of the porn thing, has she not read all of our threads on "falling in love with my dance teacher" ?not even gonna ask, but that seems more like falling in love than porn...but well, okay...zips lip

[ballroom4life]

not even gonna ask, but that seems more like falling in love than porn...but well, okay...zips lip

:raisebro:

[DennisBeach]

Take a look at this article, then come back and sound off.
Nina, the author, thinks that ballroom dancers are an elitist bunch, particularly when it comes to looking down on street dancers. I think that's a common perception. But is it reality? What do you think? Are there things that ballroom dancers do that add to that perception?

http://www.tosalsa.com/goto.asp?http://www.tosalsa.com/forum/features/article020618nina_canyoufeelme.html

Seems to be she is the one with the elitist attitude. She is also inaccurate. She is comparing competion ballroom dancing to social street dancing. Social dancers in any dance form are not dancing a set routing, they are dynamically combining various moves they know. I am a ballroom dancer and I can and do dance in a a variety of situations and on a variety of surfaces, including blacktop and cement. In those unique situations I have seen a lot of ballroom, swing and salsa dancers dancing very well and having a great time.

[waltzguy]

While I was somewhat offended by the overall tone of the article, I liked it for its rawness.

I am a huge fan of ballroom, but I also do some street dancing. I believe the two should not be polarized, they share more similarities than one might think.

I travel regularly to major cities around the US. I can personally tell you I have danced some most excellent waltzes and viennese waltzes (and other smooth/standard dances) with complete strangers (ladies) to a high degree of mutual satisfaction, at social dances. No choreography. No set music. And by "satisfaction" I mean both technique-wise and also that personal high feeling, you know what I mean. Ballroom is more versatile than Nina puts it.

And yet as much as I like ballroom, I will not polarize or put down street dancing. I get a kick out of salsa and rueda de casino at clubs, when I take breaks from ballroom.

[Chris Stratton]

Street dancers can't see the dancing in ballroom because they haven't developed sufficient mastery of it (or aren't watching people who have sufficient mastery) to get past the technical challenges to the point where two partners can naturally and dynamically interact.

Ballroomers can't appreciate street dances, because they are too busy trying to figure out what the technique is supposed to be so that they can work on it, that they won't let go and just dance it.

(ie, the only thing I understand about salsa is that I do it wrong)

[tangotime]

You missed the point, and I have been around "street " dancers , for ever.They truly do see the point. What they q is not the expertise brought to bare, but the conformity that exists within the genre .

No one can deny, that good "freeform ? " , of the kind that is being discussed , has taken yrs to develop ( I know b.t.d.t. ).

The reality is this--- most the moves that are executed during the actual dancing, have been tried and practiced a thousand times . The nuances from a musical perspective ( interpretation ) leans more towards the inward expression of the individual , and can vary greatly from song to song within the same dance style .
As prof. dancers, in the b/room field, we also have that " freedom " to interpret music, but never to the extent that one is able to do with club dance .
All of my latino salsero/as friends , look at what the b/room genre has done to their native dances ( in latin ) and stare in disbelief as to the direction it has been taken .

One only has to look at Cha, Intern Rhumba ( even samba ) to understand why they feel the way they do.
I am sure you are well aware that I was spoon fed Intern style from being a " tot " ., and I dearly love my Profession, -- but--- having said that, I must admit, that I now delineate the 2 styles as follows-- Ballroom is my love-- SALSA is my passion. !!!

[Peaches]

You missed the point, and I have been around "street " dancers , for ever.They truly do see the point. What they q is not the expertise brought to bare, but the conformity that exists within the genre .


It seems to me, that if street dancers are getting hung up on the "conformity" of ballroom dancing, then they are, indeed, missing the point. Which gets back to Chris's point--that with sufficient mastery of technique there can be plenty of dynamic interaction. Things can be changed and adapted to fit the music and become interpretive--if the technique exists to do so. It's just a different kind of interpretation.

I understand your love/passion for ballroom/street dancing, respectively. I feel the same way about ballroom v. Argentine tango (generally considered something of a street dance). I'm chafing now at learning standard, because of the rigidity, which stands in such stark contrast to the freedom of AT. But I understand and respect the genre because, to me, it has a different point. Whereas in AT the point is interpretation of the music, with standard I think about it being an exercise in perfecting technique and motion. It's just got an entirely different purpose, in my mind. Maybe one day, before I die, I'll get the hang of standard technique enough to be able to experience some of the dynamic interaction and interpretaion that Chris talks about.

[tangotime]

My point -- again-- was that street dance types relate what they dance, in comparison to the way trained b/room people perform . Its purely a visual analogy , on their part. They do understand by and large , that yrs of training go into perfecting the art form. They do not understand why we invest so much time into a genre , which seems to have no practical value outside of a studio. have had this conversation with latinos , for yrs.

I spent my formal dance training in stict tempo b/ room and latin, and got exposed to the " street " style , thru chance and proceeded to spend the past fifty yrs developing same .

I fought against the very idea of a free form of dance, but came to realise, that it did, in its own way, conform, much like b/room-- and -- many latinos would agree, that they too, have structure in what they dance , but it may not seem apparent to the uninitiated,.. The many workshops that are given at congresses, cover exactly those things--techn, style, musicality .

The bottom line is , its apples and oranges .

I just take issue with anyone who makes blanket statements that include the word " They " . If you spend the time with latinos over an extended period, you will learn that the majority appreciate most forms of partnership with equal gusto, and as a general rule, their criticism is leveled at the way the genre is being morphed into a suedo b/room style .( the same way the A/T aficianados dislike the b/room tango )

[Peaches]

Ah, thank you for the clarification. It makes more sense now, what you're saying.

And count me as an AT-er who doens't particularly care for ballroom tango. :-) I just keep trying to remind myself to respect it as a completely separate art form, and not to form any sort of link in my mind between them. Which generally works fine, until I hear some AT tune that's been turned into a march for ballroom tango!

[Chris Stratton]

What the street dancers don't understand is that the conformity of ballroom is a tool, to enable the development of skills for mastering difficulties that could not generally be mastered otherwise. Part of the reason they don't understand this is because they haven't been exposed to ballroom danceres of a level of skill where they have started getting substantial artistry-enabling payback from having signed up for the conformity.

If all you see is student dancing limited by conformity - if you don't get a chance to see the more develped dancing that is enabled by using it as a basis - then it looks like a bad deal.

When ballroom dancers look at good street dancers, we see dancing. But when we look at average ones, we see a lot of embarassing nonsense... fun if you are really into it, but not so great to watch from the outside. To a large extent, what we object to is the lack of any obvious path towards improvement there - because we are used to seeing our own dance form, and the failings of its beginners, largely in terms of waystations on a well defined path of improvement. When we see a ballroom dancer who looks funny, we can tell you specifically why they look that way, and specifically what would need to change.

The rejection of structure vs. the worship of it...

[Chris Stratton]

I fought against the very idea of a free form of dance, but came to realise, that it did, in its own way, conform, much like b/room-- and -- many latinos would agree, that they too, have structure in what they dance , but it may not seem apparent to the uninitiated,.. The many workshops that are given at congresses, cover exactly those things--techn, style, musicality .

I just take issue with anyone who makes blanket statements that include the word " They " . If you spend the time with latinos over an extended period, you will learn that the majority appreciate most forms of partnership with equal gusto, and as a general rule, their criticism is leveled at the way the genre is being morphed into a suedo b/room style .( the same way the A/T aficianados dislike the b/room tango )

I see some degree of conflict between the two statements here. If a dance form is starting to have some structure of its own, it should be expected that someone will be trying to market that structure - or more likely, a version of it that by the time it gets to the customer is distored enough it often misses most of the original point. It happened in ballrooom as we all know. That it is happening to another dance form is not really a case of "ballroomization" but rather of "marketization". And again it goes back to the general public not having seen any accessable-to-ordinary-people version of ballroom other than what is on sale at the places that advertise heavily.

A dance form becomes particiption-bankrupt when the entry points sold to the public generally cannot lead to the kinds of performances put on display to sell the idea.

[delamusica]

That it is happening to another dance form is not really a case of "ballroomization" but rather of "marketization".

That's a really interesting way of putting it, chris.

[tangotime]

It has always had structure. I would assume, from your comments, that you have invested very little time in the genre ,from at least an academic perspective .
You might be surprised to learn how much many of them do know , have tried , and do understand , to a greater or lesser degree, the path which one has to take , to achieve a high standard of performance .

As to conformity, it is inherent, without realisation , and probably would be denied by many, that it even exists . Reality speaks to evidence that not only does it exist, it would not have progressed as far as it has, from its original ethnic background , to the level at which it has currently risen .

[Sagitta]

hmm...an interesting discussion. I disagree with the assessment that looking at a ballroom beginner dancer who dances "funny" is ok because one can evaluate it as a person who is at a "waystation", and as you can determine what they need to correct. That is from a viewpoint of a competitive ballroom dancer.

Having spent considerable amount of my dance time in street dancing...notably salsa...I know that there is considerable technique in executing the dance. However, the point is not "technique" as a goal, but interaction/connection/socialisation. So when you see a beginner in technique not interested in furthering his technique...that is because he/she has attained their goal of interaction/connection/socialisation. Perhaps a competitive ballroom dancer may not see where a person can improve, but I can, but that isn't the point. This I actually also see in social ballroom dancing. There are many who are happy with where they are and not interested one bit in furthering technique, and instead of being at a waystation consider they have achieved their goal - having fun/interaction/connection/socialisation.

Now competition and social dancing are competely different animals...and I feel similarly to ballroom dancing a lot of the street dances have the same issues. But then I know qute a few purists who would consider competitions etc not true "street dancing".

[tanya_the_dancer]

hmm...an interesting discussion. I disagree with the assessment that looking at a ballroom beginner dancer who dances "funny" is ok because one can evaluate it as a person who is at a "waystation", and as you can determine what they need to correct. That is from a viewpoint of a competitive ballroom dancer.

Having spent considerable amount of my dance time in street dancing...notably salsa...I know that there is considerable technique in executing the dance. However, the point is not "technique" as a goal, but interaction/connection/socialisation. So when you see a beginner in technique not interested in furthering his technique...that is because he/she has attained their goal of interaction/connection/socialisation. Perhaps a competitive ballroom dancer may not see where a person can improve, but I can, but that isn't the point. This I actually also see in social ballroom dancing. There are many who are happy with where they are and not interested one bit in furthering technique, and instead of being at a waystation consider they have achieved their goal - having fun/interaction/connection/socialisation.

It's a very good point. I see many people at ballroom socials who are happy doing a few basic steps with very questionable technique, but they're not interested in getting better, they feel they know enough to get by and have fun. Of course, as a follower, I usually don't like it when they start experimenting with different turns, spins and things like hammerlocks....

[madmaximus]

Curious.

I've never been formally trained in Salsa, don't care to train for it and quite content with what little I know--but I dance it a lot.
However, I do borrow ballet, hip-hop, WC, Standard, and Latin technique, lines, and rules [all of which I've been heavily trained in] and imbue them [whenever it strikes me] into my Salsa dancing.

Now, I've been told (by long-time well respected Salser@s) that I've a very natural Salsa movement--doesn't look slouchy, yet still relaxed--and that they enjoy the "unfettered-ness" of my dancing.

Does this make me a street or ballroom Salsa dancer?




m

[alemana]

for some stupid reason, the use of "street" is bugging me.

the author is not a street dancer and i daresay none of us here are street salsa dancers - we are CLUB dancers. street dancers have NO training. in contrast, every salsa dancer i dance with has had classes of some sort. chris made a very good point about the marketability of salsa - the style we all dance now is a result of the very conscious and studied marketization of salsa.

i have danced occasionally with relatives-of-friends who are pure street dancersx and suffice it to say i cannot connect with them AT ALL.

[madmaximus]

[good point]

"... does this make me a Street, CLUB, or Ballroom Salsa Dancer?"





m

[samina]

for some stupid reason, the use of "street" is bugging me.

the author is not a street dancer and i daresay none of us here are street salsa dancers - we are CLUB dancers. street dancers have NO training. in contrast, every salsa dancer i dance with has had classes of some sort. chris made a very good point about the marketability of salsa - the style we all dance now is a result of the very conscious and studied marketization of salsa.

i have danced occasionally with relatives-of-friends who are pure street dancersx and suffice it to say i cannot connect with them AT ALL.

absolutely -- thanks for clarifying this, alemana.

i have many latino friends who dance street salsa. i don't enjoy dancing salsa with any of them -- they haven't been taught much about how to move a woman on the dance floor, and they certainly don't know any interesting patterns or combinations. my experience with them is always the same: "holding hands while mostly just groovin to the music"

club dancing is where technique & patterns enter into the picture, and i'm a club dancer.

[messyjessi]

I guess I don't agree with Nina, especially about the passion thing. I have seen lots of ballroom dancers who show so much passion on the dance floor that there is no doubt in my mind that they have fallen in love with what they do. I have also seen people club dancing that have very little passion and seem to be going throught the motions. In my mind, ballroom dancing and club dancing are completely different, have different purposes, and are like comparing apples and oranges. I can respect her opinion I guess, but I have met snobby ballroom dancers and snobby club dancers, and I have met nice club dancers and nice ballroom dancers. I think I can safely say that my experience has been that I have not felt nearly as welcome in the street dancing community as I have in the ballroom dancing community. I like both forms of dancing (I enjoy the precision of ballroom more), but I feel that they are completely different. I do not think it was fair for Nina to clump ballroom dancers together and paint them as snobbish and to put ballroom dancing in such a negative light. Club dancing and ballroom dancing are different.

[Genesius Redux]

Well, nothing like a long-buried thread to newly raise old hackles.

Here I'm gonna be stuffy and academic. The image of the snobbish ballroom dancer who is removed from the real bustle and life of dance is as old as ballroom itself. Just watch those old Astaire movies--and you'll see how the discussion is gendered as well. (The girl, attached to the formal structure of ballroom, and the boy, pushing past those structural limitations to regain a sense of real emotional connection). Anyway, that's the spirit in which I read Nina's article. In practical experience, there are plenty of elitists in br and salsa. She's just using a familiar trope to make a point about pushing it beyond the limits of "correct" dancing.

But in practical terms, and by this I mean ballroom competition, you see just that among the winning couples on the ballroom floor. Especially in the big pro competitions, very few of the couples are dancing "incorrectly." The placement has everything to do with the interpretation of the dance, not the more basic issues of technical precision. At its best, ballroom-style competition uses technical mastery as an expressive tool. In short, if you really wanna do well when dancing along with other couples who are just as technically well-versed as you are, you need, in the final analysis, to be the most expressive couple on the floor.

So there's nothing that isn't "passionate" about ballroom. It's simply a question, as it has always been, of what counts as real passion.

Here's a good example--Rudolph Valentino's tango in "Four Horsemen" was one of the things that really popularized the tango and led to its codification in ballroom. But early tangueros laughed at Valentino, because his version of the tango seemed in some ways too expressive in a kind of low vulgar way. It lacked restraint and dignity, too much of it had to do with facial expression and the dramatic relationship with his partner.

Of course, what any actor, director, or film historian will immediately point out is that Valentino's tango wasn't about the tango--it was about the film. But my point here is that the early criticism of Valentino by tanguero "street dancers" was almost the opposite of Nina's criticism--too vulgar and unrestrained a display of passion, not subtle enough. What that should tell us is the specific terms of the discussion can shift--there's nothing implicit in ballroom that is more formal, less openly passionate, and nothing in club salsa that is implicitly more expressive, freer, and passionate. What Nina is writing about is expressivity, freedom, and passion in dance--and the familiar figure of the snobbish ballroom dancer and the free-spirited street dancer are just tropes to develop that idea (and tropes which, I should add, are at least in part rooted in her experience).

That those familiar figures are available tropes should be obvious from a film like "Dance With Me." There we have Chayanne and Vanessa Williams in the exact same pairing that has happened in Astaire and Rogers or in "Singin in the Rain," or dozens of dance movies. Obviously, when someone like Chris decides to defend the honor of ballroom, he takes up the exact same tropes and redeploys them, in his case to defend the expressive potential of form and technique.

As for pornography and making love--the problem with the comparison is that in the case of "pornography" we have a "depiction" of sex, and "making love" is a description of the act itself (not its depiction). We might better compare pornography to "art." Or "animal sex" to "making love." In either case of which, I'd have to ask--where does "pornography" end and "art" begin. Even the Supreme Court (and we *know* how wise those guys are--I mean, after all, they're lawyers!) can't answer that question. Likewise, when does "animal sex" become distinct from "making love." The difference, if I may, is in the mind of the person, not the act. But even if you could pinpoint the difference, what in heaven's name is wrong with animal sex?

Personally, I think animal sex is fine. Does "making love" push beyond the limits or define the limits (or even define what is "off limits")? To illustrate my point, I would invite readers to take a long close look at the sex scene in "Team America." Not that I'm recommending any of that (and here, I'm talking about the unrated version).

This much I will say--if, as Nina suggests, ballroom dancing were a little more like pornography, I'll bet it would be more popular than it is....

Just some thoughts from the blue, blue sky. I will now return to lurk mode.

Good day to you, Mouseketeers,

GR

[alemana]

nor have i experienced the elitism she writes about - in fact she's so distant from it in the article that i fear she is just regurgitating an old cliche in the hopes of having something to write about.

honestly i've seen ballroom couples perform at hardcore salsa clubs here in new york where the salseros go completely ga-ga. my salsa friends LOVE my ballroom tidbits and are very complimentary toward the entire ballroom genre, even the parts of it i *myself* find boring. perhaps it's a latin thing, but overall the respect for partner dancing of any kind that i find amongst salsa dancers is overwhelming and undeniable. they may look at some of the more over-the-top makeup and hair conventions askance, but don't we all? :)

similarly, i myself have watched top ballroom competitors secret themselves, incognito, into salsa clubs in manhattan and watch RAPTUROUSLY at the pulsating underworld of mambo. for many of them the social dance scene harkens back to a time in their own past when dancing was STILL FUN (imagine that.) they are, plainly and without malice, envious and nostalgic for that feeling, which is long gone for them.

to be completely honest, the only place i have personally experienced really ugly snobbism is in a multi-dance studio (where all styles are taught) where the INSTRUCTORS who identify completely with one side or the other turn their noses up at the Others. Example: a veteran international latin teacher who regularly put down social styles like swing and salsa, and offered put-downs in a class environment directed at the styles and those ballroom people who would waste their time with them. Another example: salsa teachers who put down ballroom styles as frou-frou, self-important and fake.

These, I have seen. The rest of it... not really.

[samina]

oh, i've experienced that elitism, as far as ballroom vs. social or club dancing. and there's certainly plenty of elitism just within the salsa culture... we know that for sure. ;)

neither's my thing, tho... i tend not to hang out with people with that kind of attitude.

[delamusica]

Good to hear from you again, GR! Long time no post.

Excellent, as always.

[samina]

similarly, i myself have watched top ballroom competitors secret themselves, incognito, into salsa clubs in manhattan and watch RAPTUROUSLY at the pulsating underworld of mambo. for many of them the social dance scene harkens back to a time in their own past when dancing was STILL FUN (imagine that.) they are, plainly and without malice, envious and nostalgic for that feeling, which is long gone for them.

very interesting observation. i don't doubt that many come to feel this way...

[quixotedlm]

I'm taking lindy and EC-swing classes. In both classes, the instructors pick on the salsa-guy all the time - although in very good humor. I know them well enough (before signing up for the classes) that they know I probably won't mind, but the internal bias does show in their jest.

Also, it sometimes bothers the girl who is dancing with me when such comments are made. I tend to clarify that a certain remark had nothing to do with her and it was me they were picking at, and then she relaxes...

but the point is - each dance style has its zealous adherents and it is by far too commonly seen all around us. And aficianados are always putting down other styles either playfully or maliciously. It's just a matter of degrees really. Even patriotism and nationalism are extensions of the same concept - that of belonging to a clan.

[alemana]

yah i think that's true... cross-style ribbing is everywhere.

but it's much more pronounced, some people are arguing, between the larger groups of "social" (all styles) versus "competitive" dancers. there's a chasm there, not just a boundary.

[ninaloca]

Well, it's nice that this was brought back up. This was an interesting article, even though I disagree with the author's perception of ballroom, especially the comparison on porn vs. making love. When I think of ballroom and passion, the expression "still water runs deep" automatically comes to mind. Yeah, it does not have the outwards expressiveness of a street dance, with a lot of improvisations, no set rules, etc. (sounds messy to me, OK, my bias is showing), but it has this precision and power which I love to watch and I since I know what goes into it, I can appreciate it even more. With street dancing, I usually see people having fun and it's great that they are, but it's not for me.

And thats great. Difference is good. What I was saying is that those of us who prefer a rawer more improvisational, overtly passionate appearing style would NOT like to see it become more structured and more "still".Not wanting salsa to become ballroom doesnt so much mean I am biased against ballroom as it means I prefer thatthe two remain distinct.

[tanya_the_dancer]

yah i think that's true... cross-style ribbing is everywhere.

but it's much more pronounced, some people are arguing, between the larger groups of "social" (all styles) versus "competitive" dancers. there's a chasm there, not just a boundary.

As a former purely social dancer. I have to say that there is a certain boundary you cross in your mindset when you start to compete. Perhaps from purely social side, this boundary looks more like a chasm

[ninaloca]

Okay, honestly, I'm a little offended by her article.:mad:

I am a hip hop "street" dancer and I am taking ballroom. Of course, sometimes there is more spontenaeity in street dancing, HOWEVER, I find that in ballroom, to have perfect technique is extremely difficult. In fact, I find it easier to "do your own thing" than to do a coreographed routine.

And as of the porn thing, has she not read all of our threads on "falling in love with my dance teacher" ?


Perhaps I havent read my article well, it is pretty old,but I dont recall saying anything to imply that ballroom doesnt require skill or talent or that it is easy.

What does the degree of difficulty have to do with anything? Are we basing our perceptions of style based on degree of difficulty?

This is a problem I have with a lot of LA style salsa, so much emphasis is put on doing tricks and flips and difficult moves that the "dancing" often gets lost.It can also be a problem in figure skating or gymnastics- anything that requires both skill,precision AND artistry.

But I dont judge dancing on how hard it is to learn. I assure you, learning to dance WELL without choreography and with a brand new partner is exceedingly difficult at times. It can be taxing for a follower to dance with a new partner and make it look good when she has no idea what he's going to do next or how he prefers to lead, turn and so forth. There are different skill sets required when dancing improv and dancing to something thats already prepared and that requires a lot of memorizing and precision.

[Chris Stratton]

honestly i've seen ballroom couples perform at hardcore salsa clubs here in new york where the salseros go completely ga-ga.

similarly, i myself have watched top ballroom competitors secret themselves, incognito, into salsa clubs in manhattan and watch RAPTUROUSLY at the pulsating underworld of mambo. for many of them the social dance scene harkens back to a time in their own past when dancing was STILL FUN (imagine that.) they are, plainly and without malice, envious and nostalgic for that feeling, which is long gone for them.

The good dancers of any style get appreciation, and the good dancers can detect and appreciate the benefits of any style.

It's the half competent students (even if they call themselves teachers) watching half competent dancers of another style where there is a lack of appreciation - it's just too different and missing anything that corresponds to what seems day-to-day important in ones own efforts.

[ninaloca]

This is exactly what I couldn't get out of my head when reading this article. My ballroom friends and teachers have never been suprised to hear that I go to salsa clubs and hip-hop clubs and swing clubs and country bars and techno clubs and what have you for fun and to relax, even when they themselves don't enjoy it. But many a street dancer has expressed utter disbelief that I can dance spontaneously and freely when they find out that I'm a ballroom dancer.

It goes both ways, and the article really didn't acknowledge that at all. All about those "ballroom snobs." And there are some. But there are just as many (or more) "street snobs."



(BTW, Peaches - "snobs" is totally one of those words that is looking ridiculous now that I've written it a couple of times. It's reminding me of Dr. Seuss.)

Let me address a few points. And please, note that my tone is friendly, though I tend to be plain spoken so it may come across more harshly onscreen than if I were speaking.

1. That your friends and companions and teachers havent expressed something has little to do with what my friends or the friends of other people have done. You havent experience a certain thing,thats fine. That doesnt negate the fact that many other people have experienced it.

2. I wasnt referrring so much to "a person who dances ballroom" as I was "ballroom dancers doing ballroom dancing". Do I think ballroom dancers are people who are always stiff and who lack passion and spontanaety? No. What salseros, since thats mostly who I mean when I say "we", dont want is for social and street salsa dancing to look like ballroom dancing. And people who are engaged in ballroom dancing do not ehibit the qualities that we tend to value in dancing. That doesnt mean when they ARENT dancing ballroom they dont. Got it?

3. Of course I wasnt addressing the issues of ballroom dancers,it wasnt the point of the piece. But saying that "ballroom dancers can be snobby toward salseros" in no way implies that the reverse doesnt also exist. Im under no obligation, when speaking for my side, to also argue for the other side. Im sure there are ballroom dancers who would love to discuss that and I hope they do. But since I dont dance ballroom, I dont really have much place discussing THEIR issues.

[LenaB]

Does anyone else enjoy Elena & Sergey's Rumba in the world superstars 2005? That is hot...

[ninaloca]

Seems to be she is the one with the elitist attitude. She is also inaccurate. She is comparing competion ballroom dancing to social street dancing. Social dancers in any dance form are not dancing a set routing, they are dynamically combining various moves they know. I am a ballroom dancer and I can and do dance in a a variety of situations and on a variety of surfaces, including blacktop and cement. In those unique situations I have seen a lot of ballroom, swing and salsa dancers dancing very well and having a great time.

Let me say this:
Salsa dancers do not want street/social salsa to become structured ballroom dance. What ballroom dancers do when NOT ballroom dancing is irrelevant. What we fear is that standardizing salsa, adding too many set rules and routines WILL take salsa and turn it into competition ballroom dance. We want it to remain free, unstructured and improvisational because we like that about salsa. "street" salsa.

[ballroom4life]

Okay,

I don't know if this was done on purpose or not, but the article made it sound as if ballroom dancers would "freak out" if they were free styling. As if it was out of their comfort zone.

All I meant to say earlier was that, I have been doing free style hip hop my whole life, untrained. When I started ballroom dancing, not even a year ago, I noticed a dramatic improvement in my ability to free style. This is what ballroom does (well, at least for most of us). It improves your overall "feel" for the music and thus allows you to excel at other types of dance, whether it be hip hop or CLUB salsa.

[delamusica]

3. Of course I wasnt addressing the issues of ballroom dancers,it wasnt the point of the piece. But saying that "ballroom dancers can be snobby toward salseros" in no way implies that the reverse doesnt also exist. Im under no obligation, when speaking for my side, to also argue for the other side.

True. You're not under any obligation to say anything.

But as a member of the dance community, I'm sure you are aware that what we all strive for is mutual respect of each other as dancers, regardless of style.

Writing and publishing (or allowing to be published, whatever) an article that is so hostile in tone and admittedly one-sided is obviously going to do nothing but fan the flames (case in point: this thread).

No, you're not under any obligation to tell both sides of a story. Even when you yourself have said that you're aware that it goes both ways.

But just plain inflammatory (and bad journalism, since you claim to be a writer) not to.

[waltzgirl]

"If they miss a step or dont come out of a turn right, they wait till a new song and try again for perfection. "

I have never, in any setting, seen a ballroom dancer do this. Of course, in practice, you might repeat something you're working on until it feels and looks the way you want it. But never in any situation where you'd have to "wait for a new song." And of course, if you quit when you made a mistake in competition, you'd guarantee yourself last place.

"There is the moment when you get on the floor with a stranger, the music starts and you dance. A moment passes and you both suddenly know, you are there. It is my trinity- the Leader the Follower and the Mambo. Because it is MORE than just how he moves and how you move with him, its is how the MUSIC is moving you both;like 2 marionettes held by the same hand. When you can close your eyes, relax and allow your body to melt into his and allow yourself to move without resistance;you no longer feel the difference between you, when he moves you move, you become for a time one body and one mind. "

Funny, that's exactly how I felt during a waltz at a social recently. And I've been to the "Other Side" during a ballroom dance to the extent that I was incapable of speech when it ended!

[fascination]

3. Of course I wasnt addressing the issues of ballroom dancers,it wasnt the point of the piece. But saying that "ballroom dancers can be snobby toward salseros" in no way implies that the reverse doesnt also exist. Im under no obligation, when speaking for my side, to also argue for the other side. Im sure there are ballroom dancers who would love to discuss that and I hope they do. But since I dont dance ballroom, I dont really have much place discussing THEIR issues.
perhaps then, you shouldn't be doing just that on a ballroom forum...I remind you that YOU resurrected the thread (post#27)..we were personally content to ignore it...and had for quite some time

[ballroom4life]

perhaps then, you shouldn't be doing just that on a ballroom forum...I remind you that YOU resurrected the thread (post#27)..we were personally content to ignore it...and had for quite some time

Oh SNAP! :-P

[DennisBeach]

Let me say this:
Salsa dancers do not want street/social salsa to become structured ballroom dance. What ballroom dancers do when NOT ballroom dancing is irrelevant. What we fear is that standardizing salsa, adding too many set rules and routines WILL take salsa and turn it into competition ballroom dance. We want it to remain free, unstructured and improvisational because we like that about salsa. "street" salsa.

Ballroom dance has 2 major categoties, social and competitive dance. Many of us ballroom dancers who only do social dancing, have the same feelings. As soon as you do competitions, you have to have set rules, techniques and scoring systems.

[fascination]

Oh SNAP! :-P
i'm not even hip enough to have known what that meant until last week...my only intent is to remind author that she resurrected this thread so it isn't very productive to tell us that we aren't her audience

[DancePoet]

Take a look at this article, then come back and sound off.
Nina, the author, thinks that ballroom dancers are an elitist bunch, particularly when it comes to looking down on street dancers. I think that's a common perception. But is it reality? What do you think? Are there things that ballroom dancers do that add to that perception?

http://www.tosalsa.com/goto.asp?http://www.tosalsa.com/forum/features/article020618nina_canyoufeelme.html
After reading the article, and contemplating for awhile ...

1. There doesn't need to be a "war" nor a "battle" between ballroom and salsa, and that leaves out other dances anyway.

2. Both involve dancers and the dance, along with music and feeling.

3. Superiority and elitism come from attitude, and there can be found a wide variety of attitudes in a variety of dance communities.

4. Those who dance, no matter what the style, often find themselves adjusting to what is going on with the dance and their partner. Such is life.

5. There are ideal conditions for dancing any dance style, and any dance style can be danced without the ideal conditions.

6. Dance isn't about rules no matter what the style, although rules do govern contests in dance.

7. Regarding styles of music, some folks like some music, other folks like other music, and even with in different styles people like different tunes.

8. Neither Ballroom nor Salsa is just about fun and romance, both can involve a mix of many feelings.

9. Both Ballroom and Salsa involve feeling, and the expression of feeling through dance, and in partnership.

10. Making love, feeling passion, expressing passion, these can happen in many dance styles.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

After reading the article, and contemplating for awhile ...

1. There doesn't need to be a "war" nor a "battle" between ballroom and salsa, and that leaves out other dances anyway.

2. Both involve dancers and the dance, along with music and feeling.

3. Superiority and elitism come from attitude, and there can be found a wide variety of attitudes in a variety of dance communities.

4. Those who dance, no matter what the style, often find themselves adjusting to what is going on with the dance and their partner. Such is life.

5. There are ideal conditions for dancing any dance style, and any dance style can be danced without the ideal conditions.

6. Dance isn't about rules no matter what the style, although rules do govern contests in dance.

7. Regarding styles of music, some folks like some music, other folks like other music, and even with in different styles people like different tunes.

8. Neither Ballroom nor Salsa is just about fun and romance, both can involve a mix of many feelings.

9. Both Ballroom and Salsa involve feeling, and the expression of feeling through dance, and in partnership.

10. Making love, feeling passion, expressing passion, these can happen in many dance styles.
(Top 10 List from the Late Show with DancePoet) ;)

[DancePoet]

(Top 10 List from the Late Show with DancePoet) ;)
Not quite what was intended, but your comment was cute. :cool:

[hepcat]

In Latin ballroom, there is more of a connection

I know some street latin dancers (who were just at the salsa world congress) who would think it's the other way around. There's not more or less connection. It's just different. I watch ballroom swing dancers dancing and I don't see any elements of the connection I crave. I'll even dance with them and they don't have the frame I need to lead some moves accurately. Their elbows are floating over mine and there's no connection there. I'm not very familiar with ballroom scenes, so I don't know what ballroom skill level I've been witnessing since moving to a large ballroom area. Maybe somehow, they just have a different way of doing it.

I stopped going to the ballroom dances here because they actually kicked me off the dance floor because I was doing Lindy Hop to a "Foxtrot" song. I've danced Lindy to that same song on a regular basis and never saw anyone do foxtrot to it before. I'd never even seen foxtrot before moving here. I didn't really stop going just because of that one instance. I didn't stop going out of spite. It's because I wasn't having any fun and was regularly feeling jilted. Every dance there was some sort of drama and hurt feelings. No one would ever tell someone what dance to do or not do at a street dance. Nor would anyone ever bar entry over technicalities of footwear and attire. So yes, it felt like a snobbish atmosphere to me.

[Chris Stratton]

I watch ballroom swing dancers

While there's a form of swing within the ballroom family, it's not generally one that gets a lot of attention or specific effort, thus what you are likely to see may well be an execution fairly low on the overall ballroom skill spectrum.

I stopped going to the ballroom dances here because they actually kicked me off the dance floor because I was doing Lindy Hop to a "Foxtrot" song. I've danced Lindy to that same song on a regular basis and never saw anyone do foxtrot to it before. I'd never even seen foxtrot before moving here.

Different settings, different norms. In a non-ballroom swing venue, most dances are stationary, slotted, or wandering around a little, and you can mix and match any form of them. In a ballroom venue, the exact same music could be played for moderately stationary swing forms, or traveling foxtrot forms. When there are few people there you may be able to take your pick, but put more people on the floor and the two really aren't compatible so we designate each song for one or the other.

[NanMadison]

Just discovered this thread and found it interesting. I'm a competitive ballroom dancer, and also have danced with a performing (salsa congress-type dancing) salsa company. My partner and I also love to follow certain Latin bands. We dance differently in each of those situations, and we love each for a different reason. When we started following the bands, we made it a point to watch how the street dancers dance and dance like them, not like "ballroom dancers". We succeeded to the extent that some Puerto Ricans we met told us they thought we were Colombians, because we dance like Colombians. We had to confess that not only are we North Americans, we can't even speak Spanish - but we DANCE in Spanish! When we danced with the company, we had to change the way we danced yet again - it was neither like ballroom nor like street dancing, but our ballroom training gave us an edge. All I can say is, it's all good! Different, but good. I also have to agree with those who say the experience of a good lead/follow social dance, in any style, has a magical connection.

[Warren J. Dew]

I stopped going to the ballroom dances here because they actually kicked me off the dance floor because I was doing Lindy Hop to a "Foxtrot" song. I've danced Lindy to that same song on a regular basis and never saw anyone do foxtrot to it before.

I've been to a lindy dance where they were doing swing to songs that I'd only seen foxtrot done to before. I'm pretty sure I would have been kicked off the floor for doing foxtrot to those songs - with a sufficiently crowded floor, mixing those dances can be dangerous.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, as they used to say.

Nor would anyone ever bar entry over technicalities of footwear and attire. So yes, it felt like a snobbish atmosphere to me.

Ballroom dancers do tend to care about footwear. Running shoes can make a floor sticky or uneven, for example, which can be problematic for travelling dances. It's not always easy to fix the floor afterwards, either.

Call it snobbish if you wish, but I don't think it's unreasonable for different dance communities to have different attitudes and expectations.

[Angel HI]

I stopped going to the ballroom dances here because they actually kicked me off the dance floor because I was doing Lindy Hop to a "Foxtrot" song.

This is actually a problem with BR, and not with dancers being snobbish. though, I have seen that side, I have also encountered many studios that teach specific dances to specific songs. It is unfortunate, but I have no idea of the number of times that I have asked, "Let's dance a ......", and been answered, "Oh, this is a .....", followed by a "Hmm. I guess you can dance a ....". Too many schools teach dances rather than dance.

I've been to a lindy dance where they were doing swing to songs that I'd only seen foxtrot done to before.

Lindy swingers seem to be this way. I never thought of it as being elitist. I just always laughed at the fact that all they want to do is Lindy, and they do...to everything. http://smileys.smilchat.net/smileys/music/rocknroll1.gif

[Mostly Ballroom]

At the venues I attend foxtrot is generally done around the sides and swing dancers can dance in the middle. However, I have been to one venue where foxtrot kind of zoomed in from the corners toward the center and then back out to the corners. At such a place you couldn't really dance swing in the middle.

As a social dancer, there are times when I dance with someone much better than I and it feels like I can't get a grip. I assume I don't have the technique required to dance with that person if they are not going to come down to my level a bit. Perhaps this is the lack of connection Hepcat is talking about. (I'm sure Hepcat is fluent in lindy but mismatching techniques could be...confusing lol)

[Josh]

I stopped going to the ballroom dances here because they actually kicked me off the dance floor because I was doing Lindy Hop to a "Foxtrot" song.

Sometimes if you dance your stationary lindy in the middle of the floor you will be okay. Were you doing it somewhere other than the middle? If so, that's the reason why you were asked to move. Imagine if you were dancing lindy at a lindy event, and people started to foxtrot all over the place, running into you while you were doing your thing. Not very pleasant, and neither is trying to dance to a foxtrot song with people stopped in the middle of the floor.

I wasn't having any fun and was regularly feeling jilted. Every dance there was some sort of drama and hurt feelings. No one would ever tell someone what dance to do or not do at a street dance. Nor would anyone ever bar entry over technicalities of footwear and attire. So yes, it felt like a snobbish atmosphere to me.

I'm very sorry you allowed others to hurt your feelings. I've been there, and it's not fun! Sometimes what we perceive as drama is really just a change in a particular culture (meaning the "ballroom culture") that we're not used to. Sometimes people are genuinely snobby, but 'snobbery' is really in the eye of the beholder most often. Again, sorry you had the bad experiences--give it another try sometime, and wait for a dance that doesn't travel to do lindy!

[Chris Stratton]

At the venues I attend foxtrot is generally done around the sides and swing dancers can dance in the middle. However, I have been to one venue where foxtrot kind of zoomed in from the corners toward the center and then back out to the corners. At such a place you couldn't really dance swing in the middle.

Yes, that's the nature of what foxtrot does when danced at a more than minimal level.

Given the expense of real estate, any dance that is going to be able to stand on its own (in a competition for example) is going to evolve so that the participants have a scheme to make use of the entire floor in ordinary sized rooms with no space left to waste, either by most passing through the center area in a travelling dance, or by some parking themselves there in a stationary one. Before long that is part of the very nature of the dance, meaning that to leave it out is to leave out a fundamental part of its character.

Also, two bodies move together much more naturally through 3/8 of a turn than they do through 1/2 turn, so diagonal directions of movement (into the center and back out again rather than staying in a racetrack lane) are fundamentally characteristic to the flow of movement.

Really the only traveling Ballroom (as opposed to C&W or nightclub) dance that naturally moves in a racetrack is Viennese waltz; and that only before you get into fleckerels - which in addition to a rest and a show off could also be an evolution to using otherwise empty center space.

[Mostly Ballroom]

Also, two bodies move together much more naturally through 3/8 of a turn than they do through 1/2 turn, so diagonal directions of movement (into the center and back out again rather than staying in a racetrack lane) are fundamentally characteristic to the flow of movement.

Which explains why I keep running into traffic when I come out of a triple twinkle. The triple twinkle is going diagonal center at the end. Is there a way out of this that isn't going diagonal center?

[old dog]

Which explains why I keep running into traffic when I come out of a triple twinkle. The triple twinkle is going diagonal center at the end. Is there a way out of this that isn't going diagonal center?

Try putting your triple twinkle near a corner of the dance floor or start the pattern diagonal wall. We use this pattern a lot and rarely have this problem. Maybe we are not doing it exactly right. Usually link two or three together and can pretty much keep things going in the same direction overall if the floor is not too crowded.

[Chris Stratton]

Which explains why I keep running into traffic when I come out of a triple twinkle. The triple twinkle is going diagonal center at the end. Is there a way out of this that isn't going diagonal center?

Diagonal center is a perfectly normal direction of movement, however you need to place and time it taking others into account.

Usually by the time you are using diagonal directions to advantage you have the efficiency to move more than the less maneuverable couples so unless they were already close you don't have to worry about them overtaking you. The exception might be if you have people with energy but lacking the foot strength for control who end up barreling around a racetrack in a sort of degenerate imitation of two-step. It also gets weird if the music is uncomfortably fast; then your choice is to either barrel around frantically or take the spirit of the idea but execute it at a more reasonable tempo - and of course different couples will land on each side of that decision.

Social dancing foxtrot is sort of a balance between having a plan and being able to instantly come up with something even more interesting when your plan gets blocked...

[Chris Stratton]

One quick additional thought: both 1/8 and 3/8 turns modify the direction of floor travel of the couple by the same amount, but the difference is that in the 3/8 turn the partners swap places. This may have a practical benefit - the leader will most often exit moving in a direction that he was looking in just beforehand, so he may alredy have an idea of who else is slightly upstream. (excepting of course the uncanny ability of certain couples to teleport from "safely in the opposite corner of the room" on one beat to right behind you on the next)

At any rate, a vanilla twinkle or hover telemark to PP executed with 1/8 reverse rotation is a big exception this - the leader is now taking the couple on a path that could diagonally intersect traffic that he hasn't had a recent opportunity to see.

But if you are doing the sort of triple twinkle that ends with an open impetus - leader going from backing LOD to moving DC in pp, then that's the classic example of 3/8 rotation meaning he's moving in a direction he had a chance to survey during the rotation into it. So (barring the unexpected materialization of Alice & Bob), he should have a fair guess if it's safe to proceed with a continuity ending to DC, or to wait, or to pull something like a weave, cross hesitation, big top to contra check, etc.

[Mostly Ballroom]

Ok, thanks Chris. I don't actually know what weaves, cross hesitations, and big top to contra checks are though I have done the hold at the top of the twinkle lol but I have a friend I can ask.

I'll watch when I'm backing LOD for who's coming around. We do have a fair number of Alice's and Bob's appearing out of nowhere. It's an interesting venue with some really good teachers, dancers in the gold and novice range, along with rank beginners. And the 15 year dancers who still do a box step on the outside out of nowhere.

And thanks as well old dog.

[Yuan Ren]

This might be entirely inappropriate (please delete if the moderator thinks so and I apologize in advance), but this is exactly how I felt when I read the article.

http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=599

[Standarddancer]

LOL...funny picture. Moderators might found it inappropriate though

[hustleNflow]

This might be entirely inappropriate (please delete if the moderator thinks so and I apologize in advance), but this is exactly how I felt when I read the article.

http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=599


Aaggggghhh! LOVE IT!!!! :uplaugh: As much of a you-know-what as this is going to make me sound, I totally agree with it - the girls that always claimed that Hooters was "sexist" and "exploiting women" and incredulously asked "How you can you WORK HERE?!" were usually the ones that weren't attractive (or friendly) enough to work there in the first place ;) Or they had absolutely no clue just how hard we all were laughing on our way to the bank!

[Larinda McRaven]

Well I am not ugly or unfriendly... and I think Hooters is tasteless and exploits.

But I will agree, the senitiment is still valid, that it is quite easy to complain about something when you are on the outside unable to enjoy the benefits of it.

[GJB]

I think some costumes at Ballroom comps reveal more than a Hooters outfit !

[Larinda McRaven]

Yes, but it is not about the costumes. I have competed in a costume short enough to see my neether regions, two pieces, tiny tiny bra tops that I just barely fit in, skirts that fly up around my waist... I don't mind showing my body. But there is a reason we see it when we dance, because we are using it as an instrument of art, displaying a working muscle structure. Not to serve beer and be hit on.

As a note, I would not begrudge any girl the opportunity to work there or enjoy her financial rewards. That, or a topless bar, or a porn mag for that matter. Showing off a womans body is not bad, getting paid for it is not bad. But hopefully the people, surrounding you when you do it, have respect for something about you other then the shape of your bum.

[GJB]

I don't think most people outside the dance world see it that way. At work last week, a woman was wearing a pair of boots and a skirt that wasn't even all that short and several people commented that she looked like a street walker.

[wooh]

I think it's easy to dismiss the strong feminists still fighting for all women when you're too young to remember what it used to be like, and how far we still have to go. I worked in a church that hired an idiot off the street to be in charge of housekeeping because promoting the woman that deserved the job would have put her in charge of a man, and "that's just wrong." I worked in a nursing home, with only 3 men that worked there. The three men? Head of the nursing home, head of maintenance, and the director of nursing. Ironic that the only three men there were running the show. I work in a predominantly female profession, and still the men make more and get promoted quicker. For a variety of reasons, it's not all a "conspiracy by the man." But we've still got a long way to go before we can consider it a level playing field.
I think places like Hooters are ridiculous, exploiting the women that work there and exploiting the men stupid enough to buy crappy food just to look at women in ridiculous outfits. At least at a strip club it's more honest about exploiting the women who work there and exploiting the men who at least get to see some half nekkid women for the money.
I'll agree it's easier to criticize from the outside. But calling feminists, women that are fighting for the rights of all women to be able to make decent money without exploiting their bodies, calling them "ugly bitches" is just wrong, IMO. Of course, I can be quite ugly and unfriendly. So guess I won't get a job at Hooters. Oh well. But in a few years, those girls are still going to need to make money and won't be pretty anymore. Hopefully they're putting their money into getting an education so they can make 70 cents on the dollar for what the guys that patronize Hooters are making. You were raking it in at Hooters. But the guys you were exploiting, they're making more money throughout their lifetime, no matter how ugly they are.

[Larinda McRaven]

I don't think most people outside the dance world see it that way. At work last week, a woman was wearing a pair of boots and a skirt that wasn't even all that short and several people commented that she looked like a street walker.

Yes, it is not what we are wearing but the context it is used in/for. I would not wear my latin costumes to your office either.

[Larinda McRaven]

Looking at people who are in the outside critizing us and then calling them names instead of understanding that their opinon is just as valued as our is quite short sighted.

If people think that ballroom is eliteist then there is a reason... and it is NOT because they are ugly, bad dancers, or don't fit in. It is because they are percieving an inequality that sometimes we, on the inside, are blind to.

[wooh]

Looking at people who are in the outside critizing us and then calling them names instead of understanding that their opinon is just as valued as our is quite short sighted.


Kind of "elitest" maybe?:)

There's valid reasons ballroom is considered elitest. It's expensive to get into. I can get into salsa, and not get a hard sell on packages or privates or competition or all the things that cost lots of money. For all the talk of how it can be not as expensive, it still is expensive. It's what keeps the industry alive. And expensive is going to mean that primarily higher income people are doing it. I make a decent living, but I'm downright poor compared to most of the people I go dancing with. And while the US may not have nobility and royalty, we definitely have a class system based on income levels.

[Larinda McRaven]

agreed

[Chiron]

...exploiting the men stupid enough to buy crappy food...

Regardless of sexism or explotation of either sex, their wings are pretty good.

[wooh]

Regardless of sexism or explotation of either sex, their wings are pretty good.

Bahaha! I actually thought that might end up being the most offensive part of that post.:)

[DL]

think places like Hooters are ridiculous, exploiting the women that work there and exploiting the men stupid enough to buy crappy food just to look at women in ridiculous outfits. At least at a strip club it's more honest about exploiting the women who work there and exploiting the men who at least get to see some half nekkid women for the money.


I've never patronized (take the use of that word as you will) either type of establishment. But, what's not, "honest," about Hooters? It seems pretty up-front (take that as you will, too) about its raison d'être.

Men leer (sometimes even DF men, including me), and some will even pay openly to leer openly (not me). This generates disparate perspectives when viewed through filters of gender equality and economics.

It has not escaped my notice that not all ladies hold themselves above leering (nor, dare I say, hooting) all the time -- not even DF ladies. DF has written proof of this... and whoa, I'd better stop there.

--

As for elitism, if you think you're better at something than someone else, or judge one person better than another... ta-da! you're elitist. You might have a good reason for so thinking -- for example, a wall full of national- and international-level trophies -- but that's beside the point.

Making the point to folks unwilling to hear it that you're better, or that one person is better than another, or excluding people who are worse, will earn you reproach, resentment, and, "elitist," labels, as well as bitter arguments that what you're good at isn't worthwhile anyway. That's true even if you don't do it explicitly nor deliberately, and even (sometimes especially) if you offer to help them learn.

[Larinda McRaven]

agreed

[wooh]

All good points to ponder DL.

[cornutt]

I worked in a church that hired an idiot off the street to be in charge of housekeeping because promoting the woman that deserved the job would have put her in charge of a man, and "that's just wrong." I worked in a nursing home, with only 3 men that worked there. The three men? Head of the nursing home, head of maintenance, and the director of nursing. Ironic that the only three men there were running the show. I work in a predominantly female profession, and still the men make more and get promoted quicker. For a variety of reasons, it's not all a "conspiracy by the man." But we've still got a long way to go before we can consider it a level playing field.


Yeah, but the opposite is true too. Try being a male school teacher... I've known several, and all of them report that they have applied with various school districts and been told flatly by administrators and principals that their schools did not hire male teachers. And unlike the case you cited, this is 100% legal. If you go into a public elementary school these days, you'll likely find that the only adult male present is the janitor.

BTW, that "women make 70 cents for every dollar men make" is an urban legend. There's been a number of studies showing that in many fields, for equal education and experience, men and women make close to the same wages. In fact, in most of the large urban areas today (particularly New York), women make more then men in the same job having the same education and experience. The 70-cents number comes from a deliberately deceptive calculation which averages everyone of working age, disregarding the fact that there are a considerable number of women who don't work, work part time, or do volunteer/unpaid work.

[etp777]

I don't think elitism is n ecessarily best word for ballroom just based on price. there's gotta be a better word, but I can't think of it half asleep like I am. :)

Elitism has a negative connotation to me, and there certainly is that in some studios/with some couples, based on cost, skill, wahtever. But cost alone doesn't necessarily make it elitism. I know I've spent a lot on whiskys, wine, knives, etc over the years. :) Simply based on cost, definitely things that I've been in position (before dance, of course, as that's where all money goes now ;) ), to spend money on a hobby that many people couldn't afford, but elitism isn't word I'd choose.

Dunno, if I can think of better termtomorrow, I'll post here again. :)

[Chris Stratton]

but this is exactly how I felt when I read the article.

I think everyone in that picture would look a lot better in... oh, maybe a ballgown?

[Warren J. Dew]

I think it's easy to dismiss the strong feminists still fighting for all women when you're too young to remember what it used to be like, and how far we still have to go.

I agree with the first statement, but I'd also say that it's easy for those who are not too young to underestimate how far things have come. If you've been breaking glass ceilings all your life, it's easy to forget that the next person who comes along can often just use the stairway you built.

You were raking it in at Hooters. But the guys you were exploiting, they're making more money throughout their lifetime, no matter how ugly they are.

The same might be said in reverse with respect to male ballroom professionals and their female customers.

More generally, while it's definitely true that a few decades ago, women in a given job made about 70% of men in the same job, I don't think that's true any longer.

Well, except maybe for ballroom dancing, where a female instructor might be lucky to book 70% of the lessons that a male pro-am instructor would.

And while the US may not have nobility and royalty, we definitely have a class system based on income levels.

I'm not sure about that. I know lots of software engineers who make six figures and let their bellies stick out between their jeans and T shirts at work. Class is about more than just money, and money doesn't prevent some people from being crass.

As for elitism, if you think you're better at something than someone else, or judge one person better than another... ta-da! you're elitist. You might have a good reason for so thinking -- for example, a wall full of national- and international-level trophies -- but that's beside the point.

I think there's a difference between elite and elitist. A wall full of trophies may mean that one is a better dancer than other people, but being an elitist is more than that: it's thinking that being a better dancer than other people makes one a better person than other people. Not all good dancers think that way.

[wooh]

More generally, while it's definitely true that a few decades ago, women in a given job made about 70% of men in the same job, I don't think that's true any longer.


Thanks to you and cornutt, I have to amend my statement. After further research, women (as of 2005) are making 81.5 cents on the dollar.:)

[etp777]

I'm not sure about that. I know lots of software engineers who make six figures and let their bellies stick out between their jeans and T shirts at work. Class is about more than just money, and money doesn't prevent some people from being crass.


Working IT msyelf, I can certianly agree that the paycheck certainly does NOT define clas.s actually, ballroom is great for that, as I heard discussed last night (and bit my tongue to stay out of :) ). Ballroom helps teach men, AND women, some clas, who might not have had it before. Rich AND poor. Or somewhere in between.


Though, as I have to say since I avoided argument yesterday, some of us had that class even before we started dancing. Or at least aspired to it (which may be more honest), before the dancing and everything involved really solidified it.

[cornutt]

Thanks to you and cornutt, I have to amend my statement. After further research, women (as of 2005) are making 81.5 cents on the dollar.:)

I'm going to let it go, since I don't feel like arging the point all night, even though I think I can find the studies that disprove this. I'll just say this: if it was true, any business would be crazy to hire men, when they could get women to do the same work for 20% less.

[etp777]

Cornutt, I beleive statemnt meant business in general, not speicific to ballroom. I know at sister's studio at LEAST two of the 5 male pros probably make more than I do (after regular pay, bonuses, pro wins, teach wins, etc). Definitely no more than one, or VEry remotely possilby two of th efemale pros. But business in general, I think femals are closer to males in genearl, rather than jus tlooking at ballroom numbers. in ballroom, definitely assume that most famles will make less workin ballroom than I do working IT.

[Angel HI]

Showing off a womans body is not bad, getting paid for it is not bad. But hopefully the people, surrounding you when you do it, have respect ....

I don't think most people outside the dance world see it that way. At work last week, a woman was wearing a pair of boots and a skirt that wasn't even all that short and several people commented that she looked like a street walker.

I have always noticed the difference between the way we look at the body in France (as art), and the way we look at the body in the US (as something dirty; should be hidden, and kept private). Before someone jumps my...halo for being elitist, I'm not saying that the french are more moral than the amers. :rolleyes:

I think there's a difference between elite and elitist. .....it's thinking that being a better dancer than other people makes one a better person than other people.

Well said.

[Josh]

With all the talk of "class", elitism, and separation based on differences in gender/race/whatever... Regardless of facts, our experience in any endeavor is really how we perceive things. As a wise person said, "we see the world as WE are, not as it is." If I have a natural bias based on a prior experience in my life, or if I have facts supporting it and it's true (such as "women are generally underpaid in the workplace"), then what I will tend to focus on is specific cases to support my bias or facts, and I will tend to ignore cases to the contrary. It's human nature (unfortunately), and it's true for how I view the atmosphere at a ballroom competition, how I view people who work at a specific place, and everything else.

As a more simple example, if I am looking into buying a new car and it's a 2008 white XYZ model, then I will suddenly start to notice a lot more of those on the road. This is simply because my attention is focused on that XYZ model, and therefore I will be more aware of them.

I say this to simply say that in the ballroom community, or the workplace, or anywhere else, the preconceived natural biases that I possess are ultimately much more important than what I will actually experience. I can go anywhere in particular, and I will basically have an experience that generally matches what I expect to find there. So personally, I usually choose to have a positive view of whatever situation I am entering. It's my answer to Einstein's (loosely quoted) question that he felt was important for each of us to ask ourselves, "Is this a friendly universe?" Our answer determines our experience.

[Angel HI]

As a wise person said, "we see the world as WE are, not as it is."

Excellent. Though I am not the wise person you are referring to, I told someone that very thing verbatim, just yesterday.

[Josh]

Excellent. Though I am not the wise person you are referring to, I told someone that very thing verbatim, just yesterday.

Hey, maybe the wise person I am referring to got the quote from you! :D

[Joe]

I just wanted to thank DL for being able to actually spell "elitist." :D

[DL]

I just wanted to thank DL for being able to actually spell "elitist." :D

Please just don't call me a, "better," speller -- on this thread. :)

[danceronice]

I'm going to let it go, since I don't feel like arging the point all night, even though I think I can find the studies that disprove this. I'll just say this: if it was true, any business would be crazy to hire men, when they could get women to do the same work for 20% less.

This would be true, UNLESS the reason that female labor is cheaper is it's somehow less desirable. In the case of females who are also parents and who generally act as the primary caregiver and who want time off for child-related stuff, I can see where the labor isn't as valuable.

I don't think in any case you can compare ballroom salaries. Ballroom teachers are in an unusual sex-linked profession. The demand for the teacher hinges on the gender of the customer, in MOST (not all) cases. There is a larger pool of female customers who either need or at the very least want male instructors. The pool of male customers is smaller and therefore the demand for female instructors is reduced not though any sort of institutional discrimination but through natural supply and demand. There is greater demand for male instructors, therefore they can be more selective and charge more (up to a point; they also face more competition from other instructors--if they price themselves TOO high or don't produce a good enough product, because there are more male teachers it's easier for the customer to take their buisness elsewhere.)

[noobster]

the girls that always claimed that Hooters was "sexist" and "exploiting women" and incredulously asked "How you can you WORK HERE?!" were usually the ones that weren't attractive (or friendly) enough to work there in the first place

Whoa. That's a pretty low bar. I've only been to Hooters once but our waitress looked like she'd been beaten with the ugly stick. Orange shorts were *not* a good look for her.

[fascination]

Well I am not ugly or unfriendly... and I think Hooters is tasteless and exploits.

But I will agree, the senitiment is still valid, that it is quite easy to complain about something when you are on the outside unable to enjoy the benefits of it.
I think it's tasteless as well, but I don't think it exploits in that the women who are participating are doing so as adults and are free to do what they wish...doesn't mean I have to give them my money

[etp777]

Much better wings at little hole in the wall type place here. Also only place I've ever seen that had IBC Birch beer.

[fascination]

as for ballroom...I would say that it, by the nature of the costs in pro/am at least, is somewhat exclusionary... and I would say that there is a small proportion of the vast world of ballroom to which I would assign the positive assignement of the word "elite"...as for the term "eliteist"(or however you freaking spell it) which is often used as a synonym to snobbish, I would have to disagree in that regard...but again, the point that; we see the world as we see it, not as it actually is, is a point worth remembering...sort of like the proverb about the ten blind men all feeling different parts of the elephant....none were wrong but all felt something very different