Keeping the Swing alive!

[SwinginBoo]

Anyone else fear that swing will die out? What are our responsiblities as dancers to ensure a bright future for our beloved swing?

[Sagitta]

Gald to see you back. :) You weren't around for a few days!! :( Follow the lead of the salseros/salseras!! :roll: Note that this advice is not realted to swing per se, since I don't do that much swing these days, but I beleive it is equally valid for swing.

Responsibility as a dancer who wants that dance to become more popular is to dance with those who are starting out and encourage them along. Go for those free survival lessons that they sometimes have at events. Or if one isn't being offered perhaps you, or you know someone who could do this and you arrange for this to take place and be advertised.

If you are a beginner learning a dance for the first time it makes a world of a difference to dance with someone who is experienced. I know that as I observe the difference between the two beginners learning together and those paired expereinced/inexperienced. Little things such as spaghetti arms, not allowing elbows to go behind back, hand here means left turn... The latter tend to stick at it while the beginners are more likely to get discouraged.

Get non-dancers to come along when you go dancing. Quite a few of my friends don't dance but gradually they are coming along for some of these events. I even gave a friend some quick tips so that he felt comfortable and he came along and had fun.

[Swing Kitten]

While it's not something I think should be taken for granted, I'm not particularly worried about it dying out. Sure it's popularity will fluctuate but if every one who loves the dance keeps dancing how can they be without it?

[SwinginBoo]

Great words Sagitta!

Anyone ever go Lindy Bombing? It's when you are out at any random place and there is some music on, or a band is playing (not necessarily swing) and you just start dancing. I did this at starbucks before christmas. People watch and are interested. They ask you where you learned that and you tell them all about the dance scene and hope they will try it out.

[Vince A]

Everything that I read or see or hear indicates that Swing is agian on the rise.

The only time we "feel that Swing is dying" is when our own particpation level diminishes . . . my own 2(ents . . .

[KevinL]

Anyone ever go Lindy Bombing?

Not really, I went out with the local swingers last year after one of their Tuesday night swing practice sessions and took over a venue downtown, but since they do it regularly it doesn't really fit your critertia.

My friend Katie and I have enjoyed doing hustle at the local Ben and Jerry's scoop shop the last two times we stopped there. People even applauded when the song ended!

Kevin

[SwinginBoo]

Everything that I read or see or hear indicates that Swing is agian on the rise.

The only time we "feel that Swing is dying" is when our own particpation level diminishes . . . my own 2(ents . . .

I hope you're right about the first part. I don't know if I agree personally with the second comment. I guess what I'm really commenting on is that I have been dancing for a relatively short time, almost 2 years. In this time I have not seen that many new people come on the scene and stay. My own participation has not diminished. How can you get people in and keep them interested in keeping on with the learning? One thing is making sure to encourage and dance with beginners and to even take part in beginner swing lessons.

[Sagitta]

Just thought of something else...do demonstrations/performances at student orientations/dances etc. Right now I'm working at getting my rueda at a level where I can join a group and perform at the Ithaca Festival in June. :)

[Vince A]

Everything that I read or see or hear indicates that Swing is agian on the rise.

The only time we "feel that Swing is dying" is when our own particpation level diminishes . . . my own 2(ents . . .

I hope you're right about the first part. I don't know if I agree personally with the second comment. I guess what I'm really commenting on is that I have been dancing for a relatively short time, almost 2 years. In this time I have not seen that many new people come on the scene and stay. My own participation has not diminished. How can you get people in and keep them interested in keeping on with the learning? One thing is making sure to encourage and dance with beginners and to even take part in beginner swing lessons.
I just notice less people dancing if I'm not out there dancing, and I draw the conclusion that Swing is dying. It's not . . .

My specialty is beginners . . . I've had some amazing help with my dancing. I love to give it back . . .

[Spitfire]

Informal freebie dances with a group lesson just prior.

One's been going on here for quite awhile; must be working as it can get quite crowded.

[Jmatthew]

Lindy bombing is the...er...bomb.

Um, ya.

Anyway, it's cool, and way amusing. Grocery stores play a lot of swing as filler, trendy resteraunts will sometimes have a nice foxtrot you can dance to, we've even found a street musician at the Portland Saturday Market playing something swingable and put on a little show. :)

Of course, it only works if you happen to be walking around with another swing dancer. :)

[dnquark]

A big problem in my mind is that swing doesn't have that superficial "cool" factor that would drive the beginners to try it. A lot of people want to dance salsa, for instance, because the conventional wisdom is "salsa's sexy", "salsa's in", "salsa's cool", etc. Same goes for tango, to some extent (remember Schwartznegger in _True Lies_?..) And while we are talking about movies, both _Strictly Ballroom_ and _Dirty Dancing_ also portray latin dances as cool and sexy.

...Even hustle and WCS have more sex appeal, IMO, than swing... I guess my point here is that sex sells?.. Ok, it's way too late and I'm starting to speak in platitudes, so I'll finish counting out my $0.02 and crash ;)

[Dancegal]

WHO says swing/lindy is not cool :x (j/k)?

[Sagitta]

An interesting point about the "cool" factor. However, I must agree with Dancegal that this isn't necessarily the case. While it is a contributing factor for some, for others it might be the music. Latin/African music appeals to me more then lindy music, having grown up in an African environment.

I was dancing swing yesterday night and I could feel the music BUT there was something missing. I started learning swing, so I feel that swing would have starters advantage over latin for me, but once I went to one latin dance swing fell be the way side.

[Dancegal]

That was a great point about the music Sagitta - didn't think of that. I now realize it took me several months before I could get into the "groove" of 30's-40's lindy music. Now, I can say I like it better than the old R&B stuff that many WCSwingers play (for WCS, I prefer contemporary dance tunes).

I can see how the old jazz may not have as much appeal to non-dancers since it is not music that is ordinarily heard in regular radio stations. When learning any dance, I've found it helpful to simply listen to the beats of the music for that dance, even when not dancing. Hard to do with lindy - got a CD for that. I took salsa and merengue lessons years ago, but when I took swing, it seemed I fit in better with the swing community than with the salsa community. Therefore, I swing more than I salsa these days. Even the rockabililly-style music for 6-count does not have as much appeal as salsa does. When non-dancers think of swing, the rockabilly stuff, the Brian Setzer stuff, and Glenn Miller stuff like "In the Mood" is what they think about.

The dance community makes all the difference I think. The more inclusive and welcoming, the better, so non-dancers will have the motivation to learn swing AND keep dancing.

[Sagitta]

In the swing community, in general, more followers ask leaders for a dance, then in salsa. So, it has that going for it. :)

[dnquark]

Sagitta, Dancegal - I agree with what you said about the music. Big bands, Count Basie, Cab Calloway hold little a priori appeal to a lot of people nowadays (that is, before they get into lindy :) ).

So, more contemporary music should be played at swing events, *especially* the ones with a significant number of beginners. Some great examples are _Crazy Little Thing Called Love_ (Queen); _Moondance_ (Van Morrison); _I'm a Believer_ (Smashmouth); _Barrel of a Gun_ (Guster). Heck, play Weird Al's _Grapefruit Diet_ (parody of _Zoot Suit Riot_).

In fact, the above are among my favorite lindy tunes. Some people might complain that there aren't enough breaks, or that it's not "true swing music". Whatever. These are great, energetic songs that you can dance great lindy to, and they will appeal to a broader audience.

--l

[suek]

Sagitta, Dancegal - I agree with what you said about the music. Big bands, Count Basie, Cab Calloway hold little a priori appeal to a lot of people nowadays (that is, before they get into lindy :) ).

So, more contemporary music should be played at swing events, *especially* the ones with a significant number of beginners. Some great examples are _Crazy Little Thing Called Love_ (Queen); _Moondance_ (Van Morrison); _I'm a Believer_ (Smashmouth); _Barrel of a Gun_ (Guster). Heck, play Weird Al's _Grapefruit Diet_ (parody of _Zoot Suit Riot_).

In fact, the above are among my favorite lindy tunes. Some people might complain that there aren't enough breaks, or that it's not "true swing music". Whatever. These are great, energetic songs that you can dance great lindy to, and they will appeal to a broader audience.

--l

I have nothing to say. Except no.

[Swing Kitten]

:lol: you're great Sue! Best wishes to get you through the though times you're having *hugs*


This idea might work for some people but for the most part I also don't agree here's why

For me, the love of the music came first... before I was even aware of the dance. Big Band, Count Basie, Cab Calloway (and of course we can't forget Nat King Cole :swoon: )

There's plenty of contemporary songs played for WCS so if it only has to do with the music then I'd imagine we'd already have boatloads of people doing WCS.

The dancers I know (that are good anyway) also really enjoy the music and could very well not desire to go to dances that neglected this all important aspect. This would also prove detrimental to the 'scene' in that it may disturb the balance of beginning, novice, and advanced dancers

It's about the music! If someone is not willing to learn the dance on the count that they do not enjoy the music this makes for a situation later that they are dancing in spite of the music instead of dancing inspired by the music-- the music that inspired the dance form.

This is my initial reaction and is just my opinion-- it's up to the DJ

it might be good to mix things up a little with adding a few contemporary swing tunes and trying to appeal to more people-- my love is in the music the 'old jazz' -- I've loved it my whole life. That's what got me invlolved with the dance-- and only that will make me stay.

[dnquark]

Let's be clear on the definitions. I'm not saying that every other tune at a swing dance should be a random 8-count track plucked from a top 40 chart. Rather, my proposition here is this: Make sure some contemporary music is played at swing events, and make sure beginners realize that it is a perfectly acceptable and fun music to dance swing to.

It is important to remember that social dance is very dynamic. All vernacular dance forms change with time. Just because Lindy, as it existed in the '30s, has been unexpectedly resurrected (mucho gracias, Steven Mitchell) some 20 years ago doesn't mean that the steps and the music will remain just as they were at the Savoy when Frankie Manning ruled the day.

Lindy was so popular back then because it was danced to contemporary music! Conversely, one reason Lindy died out after the war was that the mainstream music had changed.

Now, what we are talking about in this thread is not bringing Lindy to the masses, but merely keeping swing alive. But no dance form can be kept alive if it's out of touch with some aspects of today's culture. Anyone who gets into swing and continues doing it will gain appreciation of the "traditional" swing music. Therein lies the spirit of the dance, and you can't take that away. Even by occasionally dancing to something modern.

The fact that you *can* dance swing to contemporary music is a great asset. It shows the versatility of the dance. It shows people that swing is relevant *now*, not 60 years ago. Ignoring this aspect of swing is doing a great disservice to both the beginning dancers, and to the swing scene at large (the objective here is to keep swing alive, we remember that, right :) ).

Lindy is the most free-spirited, versatile partner dance that I know. That's why I love it over any other dance. Trying to lock it into a particular music style or movement style goes against the very essence of the dance.

[jon]

Lindy is the most free-spirited, versatile partner dance that I know. That's why I love it over any other dance. Trying to lock it into a particular music style or movement style goes against the very essence of the dance.

I suppose it would be fruitless to point out that this particular argument has been held hundreds if not thousands of times in other online fora, such as www.yehoodi.com, never to any conclusive effect.

[d nice]

Let's be clear on the definitions. I'm not saying that every other tune at a swing dance should be a random 8-count track plucked from a top 40 chart. Rather, my proposition here is this: Make sure some contemporary music is played at swing events, and make sure beginners realize that it is a perfectly acceptable and fun music to dance swing to.

Problem... a lot of people don't considerate acceptable, perfectly or otherwise. The major forums dedicated to lindy hop including the swing dj forum have discussed this and the general consensus is that while people are willing to extend the label of lindy hop music to non vintage big band music the vast majority are unwilling to dance to music that does not swing.

Lindy was so popular back then because it was danced to contemporary music! Conversely, one reason Lindy died out after the war was that the mainstream music had changed.

In an effort to keep this thread on track I'm only going to say this is a very minor factor (and depending on which lindy hop authorities you talk to it isn't even a minor consideration).

I'm going to stick with this statement and assumption that it is was a major factor. What changed about the music? The rhythmic complexity both tripled and practically disappeared. With Jump Blues giving rise to Rock and Roll and Rock a Billy the vast majority of improvisation, and polyrhythmic syncopation vanished. BeBop was an attempt to pull jazz away from and above the dance roots and commercialism of Swing Music. It was art music. It became ever more complex, the syncopations, improvisations, and themes became more intense. Since I have clips of lindy hoppers dancing in the 50's to bebop and have a few friends and relatives who did it... the added complexity probably scared away some traditionalists and novices, there was a large number in the Black communities that just ate it up.

The music you described fits into the former description... most of it lacks the most basic elements of jazz that are needed to support lindy hop. Just because you execute figures from a dances lexicon does not mean you are dancing teh dance. When you look at patterns you will see very little difference between East Coast Swing and West Coast Swing to Lindy Hop Patterns... yet those two dances are VERY different. The music gives rise to technique, mood, style, rhythm and improvisation, if the music is suitably different the dance becomes something else. I think it is very telling that the music you named are all songs more often associated with descendants of the Lindy Hop, and not Lindy Hop itself.

Lindy is the most free-spirited, versatile partner dance that I know. That's why I love it over any other dance. Trying to lock it into a particular music style or movement style goes against the very essence of the dance.

I'd have to disagree with the last sentence. It is one of the most free-spirited, versatile dances I know. However when the music does not fit the fundamental needs of the dance rhythmically it requires changes made to the dance basics... and since dance forms are differentiate purely by movement style you end up not doing lindy hop but a lindy hop derived dance.

The essence of the dance is jazz rhythms and improvisations done within a specific movement framework (as defined by the Swing Out).

This is all deep theory stuff and kind of out of the scope of this particular thread. I love this kind of thing though and would be happy to continue discussing the defing elements of the dance and music in another thread.

As to keeping Lindy Hop alive (as oppossed to just the generic label of swing dancing) is about exposure, excitement,inclusiveness and fun. You can certainly play some modern music for Lindy Hop it happens all the time, Bill Elliott, Lavay Smith, and Stompy Jones (formerly Swing Session) are prime examples of bands with band leaders and arrangers who have composed new music in the style of Swing and Blues greats, but have a contemporary sensability without any form of sacrafice.[/quote]

[Hank]

I'm always surprised at just how popular west coast swing and lindy are for the following reasons:

1. I think that both west coast swing and lindy are difficult for beginners with no other dance experience to learn, which causes beginners to become easily discouraged and quit. In contrast, a beginner can learn enough east coast swing, foxtrot, or rumba in just an hour or two to sort of dance them.

2. For the first several years I did west coast swing and lindy, I was willing to do them a couple times an evening, but I found dancing the same dance over and over again all night long to be repetitous and boring. It wasn't until I started to do musical interpretation and improvisation that I began to enjoy them. I'm surprised at how many people are willing to stick with w.c. swing and lindy long enough to enjoy them.

3. Where I live, there are no w.c. swing or lindy instructors who were trained to be professional dance instructors and who make their living teaching. The people who teach w.c. swing and lindy are all amateurs who occasionally teach. They might be exceptional dancers themselves, but they have not been trained to be teachers. In contrast, my area has many professional ballroom instructors who not only make their living dancing and teaching, but someone taught them how to be a teacher. Hence, the difference between the quality of instruction I receive in ballroom and the quality of instruction I receive in w.c. swing/lindy is striking. In order to get the same level of instruction in w.c. swing/lindy, I need to travel to a convention or take lessons from a visiting coach.

Despite all these disadvantages, w.c. swing and lindy are extremely popular in my area, and may actually be more popular than ballroom dancing. I suspect the reason for this is that w.c. swing and lindy start with a larger pool of beginners (because more people are interested in them initially), so they are able to withstand losing a larger number of people along the way.

[d nice]

Now having someone trained to teach certainly means you have a greater probability of finding a good teacher, it is not a guaranty.

I have seen so many ballroom instructors who know their dance only on a superficial level, and whose teaching is very structured and methodical, but not very flexible.

I know many lindy hop instructors who have such a deep understanding of the dance and can break things down conceptually, technically, artistically, etc. as well as knowing enough of the history about the dance to transmit the spirit, which is key for an art.

Don't get me wrong, I know some amazing ballroom instructors, and some crappy lindy hop instructors... but being trained to teach twelve or more dances simply spreads one very thin, where concentrating on perfecting a single dance will often give amazing insights which can be passed on to students.

Where in MN are you? For awhile there were a number of top-notch instructors. I know Peter Strom still calls Minneapolis his home base, though he is often traveling around the country teaching.