Hierarchy among dancers

[salsachinita]

I've been thinking about this one for a while. Has any of you ever notice this dynamic in your local salsa (or other dances) scene?

By this, I don't mean the 'clique' factor that we've talked about in other threads.

It's almost a 'pecking order'. Dancers of a certain proficiency level would prefer to dance with someone who is similar, if not the same. It's only natural. I think I've read an article that describes this preference in more detail at Edie Salsa Freak's site.

So in any given nights at a salsa club, we can generally observe that 'batches' of dancers (who may have started at similar time frames) dance together a bit more. Occasionally you get some that break out of this 'batches' mode.

As a follower, I've generally danced with leaders who knows what they are doing, as I don't enticipate any lead. From time to time I would be presented with really fancy/tricky leads that I struggled with. These guys generally do not ask me to dance again, even if I did manage to make progress at a later date.

First impression lasts......sometimes I wonder if I am guilty for doing the same thing to guys :oops: ?

I've felt this 'hierarchy' a bit more now since I've come back to Sydney. They are still guys out there in my local scene that won't dance with me, based on the first dance we did at least a year ago (some much longer). I mean, when I was in Sydney no body knows me from a bar of soap (and I am also not intimidate by them for the same reason), so it was open season :D ! This same thing happens every time I visit a different city.......that's why I enjoy travelling so much.

So, what do my DF family think about this issue? Any experiences to share? Is hierarchy neccessary? Positive? Negative? How do we rise above them?

[Sagitta]

I know there is this tendency of using our first experiences with someone to guide our subsequent interactions with them. Just as we so often say that first impressions are important, so it often happens in dance. But we all have times when it's not as good and times when it is better. Whether it is as a beginner, or just having an off day. However, the question to each of us, as an individual, is, "Will that be how we want to be?" I personally, try to make sure that I am aware of this tendency, and to minimize it. If I have a really bad experience I might wait a couple weeks to ask the person for another dance, but I don't ban them completely from my list of potential partners. :)

And as for the hierarchy of dance I don't ascribe to it. I dance with all levels. It is said, "If you can dance well with a follower you know how to lead." And so I dance with beginners (though I'm still learning how to lead). I dance with those of my level, and I dance with those above mine. I actually enjoy the latter the most as the connection is always 100% on, and that makes it so much easier to dance!! :D And the amount I dance with the different groups depends on how I'm feeling that particular night, and who is there, and what the music is like. Sometimes it's more with people of my level, sometimes with those above my level, and sometimes more with those below me.

[danceguy]

Hmm, although I'm a newcomer to club style and the Salsa scene is quite small in my area - I'll share what I have observed.

Salsachinita - Its interesting that you list hierarchy and 'clique factor' as two different things, since I've noticed that they may be more related or perhaps even the same in some cases. :?

The cliques that I've mentioned before are comprised of dancers all at about the same level. One group has a few members that are from a local Ballroom school and they tend to dance exclusively with each other, and with more advanced dancers occasionally. Its very rare to see any of them dancing with a beginner or someone they don't know.

The more advanced folks tend to stick together as well, but that I totally understand as they want to dance with people who are at their level. And most of them dance with people of all levels, so are they really a clique or not? Hard to say.

Like Sagitta, I will dance with anyone, and my reasons for not dancing with a lady would be simple - do I enjoy dancing with her or not? Regardless of their dance experience, dancing with some ladies is like dancing with a wild bear...forget trying to lead them...it just isn't going to work for me! Or if someone is sloshing drunk and wobbly...well that's no fun either.

I like to dance with beginners especially if no one is asking them to dance...how else will they learn? I love to meet new people, matter of fact I'm more inclined to ask as a total stranger for a dance. I may be a bit shy, but I spent several years as a tour guide so meeting and greeting new people is something I'm very good at and enjoy doing.

Dancing with ladies 'at my level' is also fun, but I'm not sure what my level is...I still consider myself a beginner, just not a total greenhorn. And it is fun to dance with advanced salseras...especially one who is a really sensitive follower, you realize your mistakes really quickly with them. ;)

It is tough as a new lead in a club to get a lot of dances...most of the other guys I see who are beginners sit down all night and wait for ladies to ask them. I used to do that a while back...but now I get out there and ask...if I want to learn how to dance, I've got to get out there and do it!

I know that cliques, pecking orders and such are part of life, we see animals do it all the time...especially with cats and dogs. But as humans - aren't we advanced a bit more socially than that? Do people stay in groups out of fear, security, or just to be among like minded individuals? I've noticed that many people in life go absolutely nuts if they aren't around others all the time...I call it the "lemming principle." I wouldn't say its good or bad, rather sort of fascinating from a Psychological perspective.

I go out to dance as an individual...but I'm there as part of the dance community. I usually sit alone, but I would be more than happy to sit, dance or talk with anyone provided they are nice and friendly. So to sum it up, I guess some people need to be in the "inner sanctum", while others don't.

Hmm...I would say that best way to 'rise above' these groups/cliques as such are called, is to not allow yourself to be in one. :P

[salsachinita]

Its interesting that you list hierarchy and 'clique factor' as two different things, since I've noticed that they may be more related or perhaps even the same in some cases. :?

The two are inter-related alright. But I am trying to focus on a slightly different angle here, for this thread.

This 'hierarchy' I am refering to here happens beyond the cliques. It still happens after the cliques are broken down (temporarily or otherwise, for whatever reasons).

Sometimes I wonder if the level of ability, as Sagitta said, has everything to do with it, or could there be reasons other than discussed in 'clique' related threads?

I'm digging a bit deeper here....so plz bear with me, guys. Hope I don't sound like a raving lunatic :wink: !

'Cliques' are easy enough to break. But 'hierarchy' felt somehow trickier. Could it be that, as social animals, we humans cannot escape the inherent conditioning of naturally becoming part of the hierachy? (as opposed to 'cliques', which are formed generally by choice)

I am speaking from experience here. I have successfully worked my way into a few cliques. Now, I am facing my own placement in the hierachy. I am facing all the possibilities & limitations, and seaching/striving for my next break-through.

Can anyone relate to this.....? Am am making myself clear? Or am I over-reacting?

[Sagitta]

Actually I know some groups/cliques where there are people of varying abilities. These cliques just so happen to break any hirearchical norms for insiders as the clique is stronger then hierarchy.

I think it is the nature of the human animal within the context of culture/society. If ranking is a common feature in daily life it also becomes a feature in dance. What do you think?

[danceguy]

Salsachinta - You're certainly not a raving lunatic (most likely a raving beauty) and you are definitely onto something here. I'm very eager to hear responses from the more advanced Salsa folks as my background is dance is very small.

If you agree, I believe I touched upon this a bit of what you are saying in my last (albeit long-winded) post. For instance, if you are a total beginner, you get a lot of "sympathy" dances...people will go out of their way to dance with you if they see you sitting there like a lost lil' puppy dog.

But - once you establish yourself as a regular - don't expect that to happen anymore!

This was my experience when I first was dancing both Ballroom and club Salsa. It still happens to some extent, but I have gone out of my way to become a regular and practice a lot on my own. Now it is up to me to start asking ladies to dance...in a sense this a "proving grounds."

So, in essence, my first time in the club scene was being at the bottom of this hierarchy. Many people show up once, then never come back. Some stay a while and then move on. I've stuck it out for the past few months, so I'm slowly climbing the hierarchical ladder...as is everyone else as well.

Is this more of what you were getting at? :P

Speaking of Salsa - its Sunday night and we have a live band playing at the local nightclub - so time to go get ready! :D

[brujo]

Not really sure if first impressions are what matters. The first dance is always going to be a little awkward as both dancers are trying to find out the other person's level, lead, etc. Sometimes the really fancy patterns might just be an insecure leader trying to compensate for lack of connection or whatever.

I think the hierarchy basically boils down to comfort level. I feel like an idiot some times when I ask a more advanced dancer to dance. I know this fear is irrational and unfounded, but it prevents me from stopping to ask them to dance. I don't believe in cliques, and know people in all groups, but would rather dance with someone that I know I can have fun with dancing, instead of constantly worrying about looking like an idiot.

The beauty of congresses and conventions is that you don't really see that much of the clique-ness factor, and it doesn't really matter if you dance poorly with someone, as they will most likely forget about you at the end of the night.

[dragon3085]

I think we need to take into account a little human psychology here. No one wants to look like or think they look foolish when they dance. I think it is kinda of like a artist being their own worst critic. You see yourself as a certain level dancer and feel you should stay within that level. Remember before you can consider all the clique and snob factors, you have to figure in the invidual choices and preferences a person has going on inside his or her head when they decide to ask someone to dance or accept the invitation.

Pat

[salsachinita]

it is kinda of like a artist being their own worst critic.

Definitely. I've experienced this time and again. Today, I was presented with a wonderful opportunity to confront some of my personal insecurities (salsa related, of course!). :shock: Gosh, was it a lesson :shock: !

:evil: This turns me into a not-good-company :evil: ! BAAAAAAD! :oops:

I think the most (seemingly) confident people can also be very insecure (not so deep down) underneath.

What are we all looking for.....? Approvals? Re-assurance? Where from? Others? Ourselves? Why?

I have a lot of growth to do yet :oops: .

(I am sorry , guys. Off topic again. It's late, I've just got in for a heavy day of salsa & thoughts :oops: )

[borikensalsero]

There is indeed a very clear hierarchal line in the world of salsa. Mainly created by our own fears. How many times have we not heard other dancers say, God, he/she is too good, I can’t dance with her until x,y,z? Rubbish, in my opinion. When I first started dancing I too would be scared off by the skill of a possible follower, but now, the only limit I put on myself when dancing is how much the possible follower enjoys the music.

I’m a loner when I go out, but pick and choose whom I will dance with regardless of pecking order. I don’t see that line that separates the best from the least skilled dancer. It has instead been replaced with a line of enjoyment. If you are very skilled but don’t enjoy the music, we will most likely see each other a 1000 times and I will never ask you to dance. Not because the person is a better dancer but because our styles either don’t match, or I don’t feel your energy to know that you are there to have a good time, but rather to step to salsa. That is my pecking order…

[salsachinita]

The beauty of congresses and conventions is that you don't really see that much of the clique-ness factor, and it doesn't really matter if you dance poorly with someone, as they will most likely forget about you at the end of the night.

Really? That's re-assuring, Brujo. Thankyou for the suggestion. I've been thinking a bout attending but somehow chickened out each time :roll: .

So maybe it will be a positive thing to attend 8) !

[salsachinita]

I’m a loner when I go out, but pick and choose whom I will dance with regardless of pecking order. I don’t see that line that separates the best from the least skilled dancer. It has instead been replaced with a line of enjoyment.

Boriken :notworth: , thankyou! You have no idea how much I needed to hear this today!

(I'm a loner when I go out too, and I think I function best as one. It can be a scary thought, as I may not know how to function in the presence of another :( )

[danceguy]

Well, I had an interesting experience with all this last night. We had an early Salsa event with just a few people, and we had a really good time dancing for a couple hours. One of my best nights dancing ever. Finally, the live music arrived (an hour late)...and then the entire energy of the club changed in a matter of minutes...

The band was good...but they had quite a clique that came with them...and while they were amazing dancers...they were very unfriendly. Only danced with each other or people they knew, and pretty much ignored everyone else.

And while the music sounded good to me, the energy that the band gave off just didn't jive with what I enjoy about Salsa. One of the band members was actually a guy I had gone to college with years ago...and also one of the biggest egotisitcal jerks I have ever met. I should have known better when I found out he was in their group. :oops:

I know we've touched upon Psychology, fear, cultural background....but isn't Salsa really about breaking through these old world ideals and having everyone mix together, regardless of who or where they are from?

Sure, who isn't afraid of looking bad...but is this more important than having a good time?

Hmm....

[passion]

I can completely see a heirarchy in salsa dancing, one in which I've worked my way up. Through that time, I've not been aware of that happening. As I got better, I danced with the better, more experienced dancers, and less with the others.

Only recently did I become aware of that fact when another dancer came up and asked me to dance. As we were talking later, he disclosed that he was so afraid to ask me to dance and wouldn't until he knew he was good enough. I was blown away, and felt awful. I had turned into something that I didn't want to be.

I told him, to never be afraid to ask anyone to dance, you'll find that those who truely love to dance won't care if you have fancy moves or spins or whatever. Those people love to dance no matter how they do it.

When I dance with someone, I dance my heart out, whether it's with a more or less experienced dancer, and I have a blast. The stipulation for me is that dancing is they're motivation.

Since that incident, I have become more aware of my surroundings and danced with those dancers who truely love the dance. I did do the asking, but now those people at a lower heirarchical level are more willing to dance with me. And it's such a good thing to see those people shine also.

[Sagitta]

Another one with the true salsa spirit and soul!! :D

[salsachinita]

I had turned into something that I didn't want to be.

I can SO relate to this! Thankyou for sharing, Passion :D ! Good to have you with us.

I am doing exactly what you are doing, while still battling working up & out of my own placement :roll: . Not easy but I enjoy the challenge.

[salsachinita]

I know we've touched upon Psychology, fear, cultural background....but isn't Salsa really about breaking through these old world ideals and having everyone mix together, regardless of who or where they are from?

I wish........

Sure, who isn't afraid of looking bad...but is this more important than having a good time?

I guess what I am trying to share here, is that I'm currently experiencing a whole new level of subtlties. It has nothing to do with one's dancing ability/level. It's not even about looking good/bad vs. having fun any more. I am far more interested in the intellectual/psychological challenges presented via salsa (as a medium).

My journey has only just begun.........

(Can anyone relate......? Or am I all alone here...?)

[passion]

I am far more interested in the intellectual/psychological challenges presented via salsa (as a medium).

I completely relate. It's just within this last month, where I've been trying to take my dancing to a different level... one that overcomes the actual dance and where it can take you emothionally and metaphysically.

My journey, too, has just begun and I'm antipicating all the wonderful things that can come out of it!

Keep me posted on how your journey goes!

[salsachinita]

Keep me posted on how your journey goes!

Thanks, sweetie :D ! I am feeling strong & centred today. Good for my journey.

[hobrien]

When I go out dancing the main thing of course is to have a good time.
But it is a give and take thing, so I dance with one or two newcommers or a less experienced person on purpose, and I do the asking.

They often say "but I'm not very good", but I politely drag them on anyway. I do this because I want to encourage people, I take it real easy with them, complement them when they do something right, try things again if they want, and we have a little fun. They always seem happy afterwards.

What I take is that some day maybe they will be my dream dance.

Give so you can take !

[hobrien]

intellectual/psychological challenges presented via salsa (as a medium).

Wow salsachinita !!

No I cant say I truely follow, but if I didn't live on the far side of the world, I would ask you up to try !!!

Keep Dancing :bandit:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Dancers of a certain proficiency level would prefer to dance with someone who is similar, if not the same. It's only natural.
Yeh, This is just like everything else in life. One usually prefers playing tennis with someone of their skill level. Boxing or wresting is only fun if your partner has a fair chance of beating you. Why play chess with a pro if you know in a couple of moves he´ll check-mate you...

Even though dancing is not a competition, I think people just naturally feel more comfortable dancing with people of their skill level. Another reason is that you usually have a better chance to get to know these people and become friends (take classes with them, discuss similar patterns/moves, etc.)

What bothers me is the "clique" thing. I know girls who take this to an extreme and only dance with 2 or 3 guys at the club (always the same ones). Why do they even bother going to clubs? Why don´t they just invite the guys to their house and dance there? Of course they wouldn´t be able showoff in front of everyone. Hmmm... Some of these girls must think there´re God´s gift to dance. What´s funny is that I´ve danced with some of these girls, on rare ocasions of course, and some of them aren´t that great... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: If they only knew... I´ll probably tell them one of these days... :twisted:

[borikensalsero]

I´ve danced with some of these girls, on rare ocasions of course, and some of them aren´t that great... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: If they only knew... I´ll probably tell them one of these days... :twisted:

Some people are so used to other people style, or only know a given schools moves, that they really can't dance with anyone else. They excel at stepping around with the same people, but when they are taken out of their environment they completely melt/fall apart.

It's happend to me so many times, the usual NY City Lady is used to spin, spin, spin, spin and more spins. You can put them through a mase of spins and they'll shine like a world class TOP. However, when you remove them from that element, a lot of times, they fail to achieve the same levels as with their stirring chef-mates. The posture required to spin is no longer needed yet they fail to realize hence stay seemingly up-tight through the dance. At which time, it isn't that they aren't good, they just don't know how to adapt.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I´ve danced with some of these girls, on rare ocasions of course, and some of them aren´t that great... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: If they only knew... I´ll probably tell them one of these days... :twisted:

Some people are so used to other people style, or only know a given schools moves, that they really can't dance with anyone else. They excel at stepping around with the same people, but when they are taken out of their environment they completely melt/fall apart.

Boriken, actually this may be the case with one of the girls. She seems more comfortable with a certain style which is a little different than mine. However, the others, I know for certain have the same style as me (same dance school, same methods, etc.). Even if I was unsure, I could easily see it in their dance. I believe they are much too confident in their dance skills. What’s worse, they are convinced the only good leads around are their partners´. Hmm…

When I was a beginner, I wasn’t very good (worse than the average beginner). I then met this girl, we became good friends and started clubbing together. I would dance around 70% of the time with her. After a while, I felt that we really connected and that she was a great dancer. Whenever I tried dancing with someone else, things wouldn’t go well. I eventually convinced myself that my partner was the only real good dancer in the club (at least at my level). Only after some time did it hit me – the problem had to do with me and not others. I was so used to dancing with her that she’d compensate for my lack of technique and lead skills. I realized it was time for me dance with as much different partners as possible. Several months later I could dance with practically everyone (at my level). My leading skills and technique had improved exponentially. It was a great learning experience.

I suspect this may be the same situation with some of the girls I mentioned. They just assume the problem is with others and that their partners are the only good leads because they feel comfortable with it. For me a good follow, amongst other things, is one who can adapt to certain lead. I know ladies who exceed in this area and most of them aren’t snobs. Their follow seems to be custom made for almost all leads.

It’s kind of funny, I met the partner I had as a beginner last Friday at a salsa club. I hadn’t seen her or danced with her for a long time (around 6 months). After the first salsa, she whispered in my ear “You are still the person I feel the most connection with - I love dancing with you”. :oops: :oops: :D :D

Have a great weekend,

[passion]

That is true, that when dancing with one partner for a majority of the time, you get used to each other and dancing styles meld.

However, I feel that people can adjust to other styles as long as they are given a chance. When I dance with someone new, somethimes the dance doesn't go well. That is only because we are adjusting to each other and learning to read each other. In all actually, there's a very short amount of time to do that properly. Given a little more time, or one more dance, two new partners may find that their rhythms work very well together.

If the first dance flopped and and second was given a shot, and you can match or adjust your styles, then maybe that partner's style and chemistry can not meld with your and you should move on.

Dancing with the same person for the majority of the time is fine, but I feel that in order to grow and improve and have incredible dancing experiences, one must venture out into the unknown or less familiar and try out a new partner. Because whether you stand and fly with a new partner or fall, your favorites will always be there to pick you up and give you an wonderful experience.

[Jmatthew]

My experience with Salsa dancing outside of our university ballroom club is pretty limited, but I see something similar in the swing community. It goes something like this:

You dance most who you're most comfortable with, and you're most comfortable with the people you dance the most with...it's a cruel circle. Kind of a tangent to this is that people seem to be more comfortable with people that their friends dance with, so there's almost this sine curve of comfortableness that starts with yourself and then degrades away as each person is removed by another layer of seperation.

I.E. I'm very comfortable dancing with FollowX
I'm kind of comfortable dancing with FollowY, because she dances with FollowX's boyfriend.
I'm not comfortable with FollowZ because none of my friends have ever danced with her.

There's something of a heriarchy that builds off this phenomenon, that I've noticed. That is, if a stranger walks up to FollowX just as I walk up to her (remember she's someone I'm comfortable with) the stranger will often defer away, or be more hesitant in asking her to dance.

The psych major in me to my apparent self-confidence vs the anxiety of a stranger asking FollowX to dance. He's anxious, I'm not, so he instinctively interprets that as a rank issue.

I'm not sure if it works like that for girls. They seem to be less prone to "Alpha-male" fiascos. :)

The kind of interesting thing that I draw from this is that the really good dancers may be as hesitant to ask new people to dance because it's outside their comfort zone as much, if not more so, than because they're "too good" or afraid of being "bored."

[salsachinita]

The psych major in me to my apparent self-confidence vs the anxiety of a stranger asking FollowX to dance. He's anxious, I'm not, so he instinctively interprets that as a rank issue.

Welcome to DF, Jmattew :D ! So far, your comment comes closest to what I was refering to originally. Thankyou.

I'm not sure if it works like that for girls. They seem to be less prone to "Alpha-male" fiascos. :)

You bet it does (work like this for us girls)!

The kind of interesting thing that I draw from this is that the really good dancers may be as hesitant to ask new people to dance because it's outside their comfort zone as much, if not more so, than because they're "too good" or afraid of being "bored."

....or afraid to threaten their own hierarchal status by looking less proficient.......?

[salsachinita]

Some people are so used to other people style, or only know a given schools moves, that they really can't dance with anyone else. They excel at stepping around with the same people, but when they are taken out of their environment they completely melt/fall apart........... it isn't that they aren't good, they just don't know how to adapt.

Adaptation is the way to survival. We are still driven by our instinct to find our own place in this ever-evolving world. Even in the world of salsa.........

[salsachinita]

Dancing with the same person for the majority of the time is fine, but I feel that in order to grow and improve and have incredible dancing experiences, one must venture out into the unknown or less familiar and try out a new partner. Because whether you stand and fly with a new partner or fall, your favorites will always be there to pick you up and give you an wonderful experience.

I am with you 200% there, Passion :D ! I really couldn't stress this point enough to everyone.....!

So let's laminate this statement of yours shall we...... :wink: ? And post it around the places...... 8) !

[passion]

If only everyone realized that... :?

We'll just have to start spreading the word ourselves and hope that it spreads from there! :wink:

[MacMoto]

The kind of interesting thing that I draw from this is that the really good dancers may be as hesitant to ask new people to dance because it's outside their comfort zone as much, if not more so, than because they're "too good" or afraid of being "bored."

Jmatthew, you've made me think:

There are people I see very often but have never asked to dance. Part of the reason is that they are much better dancers than me (do you guys also find it harder to ask people who are obviously better than you and tend to wait for them to ask you, when you have no problem asking, nor being asked by, less experienced dancers), but more importantly because they seem to only dance with the same people all the time. It makes me think that these people are cliquey and are more likely to say no to the likes of me.

Now, the thing is, I don't actually know if that really is the case. I've never asked so haven't had a chance to find out. I wonder if it's only because people like me avoid asking them that they end up seeming as if they are cliquey/hierarchical? Maybe I'll ask them to dance with me tonight and see what happens...

[Jmatthew]

A couple of weeks ago there were some workshops up in Portland that I went to, and I was nervous as hell, because the Portland dancers are just amazing. To say I was intimidated was a serious understatement. On top of that the Portland crowd had something of a reputation for being clique-ish (like my crowd isn't) and sometimes even condescending.

After a weekend of dancing and workshopping with them I found that they're just as nervous as I am (for the most part), just as worried about the impression they'll make on new people, and just as nice and all around cool human beings.

They just dance with the people they see most often, and so are more comfortable with them, just like the rest of us.

One thing I HAVE noticed about the pros and semi-pro dancers is that they tend to be a little more picky about what situations they dance in, and somewhat more concerned about who they dance with. It makes some sense, if your income is derived from teaching dance classes a sprained ankle from a crowded social dance floor isn't what you're looking for. On a similar note, if they've had 20 dances with newbies already tonight, they may be pretty sore and banged up (particularly follows), and be pretty hesitant to risk further banging up.

There's things I could suggest there (get a reference, have them watch you dance with someone else, just chat so they're more comfortable with you at the next dance, etc) but I think the important thing is to remember than 99.9% of the time what we take as personal isn't personal at all, it has nothing to do with us. So that person telling you "no" probably isn't doing it because of you. To put it harshly, that person probably doesn't know or care about you enough to say "no" to you because of you. :)

[Sagitta]

There are people I see very often but have never asked to dance. Part of the reason is that they are much better dancers than me (do you guys also find it harder to ask people who are obviously better than you and tend to wait for them to ask you, when you have no problem asking, nor being asked by, less experienced dancers), but more importantly because they seem to only dance with the same people all the time. It makes me think that these people are cliquey and are more likely to say no to the likes of me.


MacMoto I don't find it harder to ask people who are better then me. But, that's just me. Yesterday night at swing I did not have many dances, and actually danced more dances where people asked me, as swing is not my thing. BUT, for salsa I'm quite aggressive. I usally hate sitting out even one song and I'll ask anyone. And actually, thinking about it, if I am in dancing mood the same applies...whether it be contra, zydeco, swing, folk dancing, ballroom... :)

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

There are people I see very often but have never asked to dance. Part of the reason is that they are much better dancers than me (do you guys also find it harder to ask people who are obviously better than you and tend to wait for them to ask you, when you have no problem asking, nor being asked by, less experienced dancers), but more importantly because they seem to only dance with the same people all the time. It makes me think that these people are cliquey and are more likely to say no to the likes of me.

Hi MacMoto,

I think this happens to almost everyone. Why? Asking someone who´s better than us constitutes a risk. The first risk is being turned down. The second is looking at the person being bored out of their mind while dancing with us. The third is having your dance ego severely affected. Once you had a bad experience, you tend to think twice before doing it again. How did that proverb go?- Once bitten, twice shy...

Yes, we tend to look at these people as being clique-ish. Sometimes they aren´t, but on the other hand sometimes they are. Anyway, lately I´ve been worrying less about this and started asking more profficent dancers than myself to dance. There are still some girls though who I refuse to ask for a dance.

Regards,

[salsachinita]

lately I´ve been worrying less about this and started asking more profficent dancers than myself to dance.

:D Fantastic! I really wish more people would do the same. We all benefit from dancing out of our comfort zone (ie. with our regular partners).

There are still some girls though who I refuse to ask for a dance.

Tell me why.....? Is it because you just know that they are likely to say "no"? Or is there other reasons....? Hmmmmm, could be a topic on its own :? .

[Xtreme Salsa]

I feel that I have more "fun" dancing with someone that is relatively my level. I'll dance with girls that are even more beginners than I am and I try teaching them the basic etc. but you can only do that for so long. After a while it gets boring and I feel the need to dance with someone who can keep up with me.

[Sagitta]

There are still some girls though who I refuse to ask for a dance.

Why? As long as it isn't because you think they are too good for you!! :)


I feel that I have more "fun" dancing with someone that is relatively my level. I'll dance with girls that are even more beginners than I am and I try teaching them the basic etc. but you can only do that for so long. After a while it gets boring and I feel the need to dance with someone who can keep up with me.

(I'm not using this as a personal attack, but merely to point out a common phenomenon that I've observed.)
A lot of people have fun dancing with people their own level as they don't have the added tension of worrying about showing their inadequacies, i.e. they don't know the fancy moves the advanced follower might like etc. Then there is the dancing with those who know less then you where you get bored!! Ever considered that you are doing to them exactly what you might think that the advanced followers do to you? I dance with the music. This way I don't get bored with followers at a lower level then me, or tensed up/lose the "fun" factor when I dance with those who are more advanced then me. The main element that I need to keep up with, be in synch with, is the music. Everything else takes care of itself. As my leading skills have improved I've discovered that I can lead a beginner through lot of moves with guidance, once I've got them over being tensed up/looking at feet...Figure out how many moves you can do with left and right turns and no crossbody moves, which a lot of beginners get all worked up over. For right turn: RH-RH, RH-LH, two hands, two hands crossed, then more double/triple spins, doing turns using the shoulder etc to lead the turn...combing your right hand at the end of the RH-RH left turn to return to RH-LH hold, or bringing the hands together, up, and out in a circle accomplishing the hand-switch while the hands are together...Then we have the moves for right hand turn, then the combination of leader and follower turns. Then there are the cuddle/sweetheart/ variations, cross-body breaks....Put these moves together in an ever-changing pattern while grounded in the music, change the emphasis of the turns according to what the music is telling you... I'm not saying that I hate cross-body etc, but I find that when dancing with beginners I change my style of dancing, as with each person that I dance with.

Now for dancing with those advanced followers. I have a lot of fun with them. The connection is incredible!! I feel every step of theirs! Even a simple turn flows along with the music -- a beauty that is incomparable to that of dancing with people of my level. How couldn't a person not have fun? If I'm having fun and I communicate my pleasure of dancing with them to some extent they will derive pleasure from this as well. Those advanced followers? At one time they were like those beginners who really don't know their left foot from their right foot. After that vivid image is painted in my mind how can a person be tensed up/not have fun? :)

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

There are still some girls though who I refuse to ask for a dance.

Why? As long as it isn't because you think they are too good for you!! :)



Cause I have black-listed them. 8) Check out my reply on Salsachinita´s thread "Why don´t you ask him/her to dance?"

[Sagitta]

There are still some girls though who I refuse to ask for a dance.

Why? As long as it isn't because you think they are too good for you!! :)



Cause I have black-listed them. 8) Check out my reply on Salsachinita´s thread "Why don´t you ask him/her to dance?"

I thought so!! :) I'm with you all the way on that!! Fortunately I don't have a long blacklist! I don't like excluding people from something I love! Hence the passionate rants that so often come on topics like these! :oops: :)

[Xtreme Salsa]

I feel that I have more "fun" dancing with someone that is relatively my level. I'll dance with girls that are even more beginners than I am and I try teaching them the basic etc. but you can only do that for so long. After a while it gets boring and I feel the need to dance with someone who can keep up with me.

(I'm not using this as a personal attack, but merely to point out a common phenomenon that I've observed.)
A lot of people have fun dancing with people their own level as they don't have the added tension of worrying about showing their inadequacies, i.e. they don't know the fancy moves the advanced follower might like etc. Then there is the dancing with those who know less then you where you get bored!! Ever considered that you are doing to them exactly what you might think that the advanced followers do to you?


Its different when the leader knows more than a follower who is barely beginning, compared to a follower who knows more than a beginner leader. I dunno if you get what I mean.

[Sagitta]

I'll give you that it is different as it normally is the leader who leads/ suggests moves. And I consider myself a beginner, but not a rank beginner. (This means that if I like the music I get into it and don't have to worry about keeping to the beat. If the follower is all over the place it does not affect my ability to keep to the beat, and I can talk, etc. Things that I couldn't do a few months ago. I also try out stuff for fun, just to see what happens, like getting to doing the first half of the basic on the second half of the 8 count in the music, switching between on 1 and on 3 -- lots of people at my level or below don't even realize what is going on :) ) Even with that difference due to dance roles I don't see that as much of an issue, given that everyone starts out not knowing anything, and I'm simply where those advanced people were some time in the past. I strongly believe in reciprocity, giving and taking, sharing one's passions, so I don't have a problem having fun with beginners and advanced follows on the social floor.

Just yesterday at the international folk dance club they played two merengue songs. I deliberately chose two follows who had no clue about partner dancing, as I wanted to show them how much fun it can be. I had the time of my life, and the follows really got into it with the flirting etc. I fed off the energy of the followers. Now if the followers were all tensed up, refused to relax etc, I don't think I would have had much fun. I might even get bored!! :shock: To me feeding off each other's energy is an essential element of partner dancing. If it isn't there we might as well be doing solo freestyling!!

I would give an example of dancing with advanced follows, but they weren't any yesterday night, except for the teacher, and since most people didn't know merengue I wasn't going to take away the only two people who really knew how to do it from all those who had no clue!! Now if we revist this topic after I come back from latin night on Tuesday I will be happy to give examples, of while it is different it really isn't. There are advanced dancers there so I can ******* my memory. But, briefly, there are advanced follows who prefer to dance with a leader who knows few moves, is on time and into the music, and is having fun. There are those who want those flashy moves/turns etc as they think that's what salsa dancing is, and I don't care what anyone else says, but those people are not really dancing. They are dancing to the music and not with it. Big difference!! I don't think that I dance with those people as much.

So after all this ranting I would say the people whom I want to dance with are of the type who relax, get into/with the music. Getting back onto the topic of hierarchy...I would say it is those who are tensed up/know want flashy music/ don't get with the music who are ranked lower then those who relax, get with the music, have fun...I know that I am a beginner salsero, but I don't think that skill level comes into play for me. I guess that's why I don't get intimidated by the cliques/ hierarchical skill levels etc that are out there. Why I find it easier to dance with / ask anyone to dance then my friends. [shrug]

[Xtreme Salsa]

Well I live in LA and from what I've experienced it seems that followers almost always want to dance with a leader that is better than them. Like I said I dont mind dancing with someone that is a total beginner because I do it alot anyways. When I go out to clubs there are always GOOD dancers there that do all the flashy stuff and get the crowd going. And then here I come doing my basic step and cross body lead..........It seems the good followers get bored with me since I dont do the fancy stuff.

[Sagitta]

I completely understand where you are coming from Xtreme Salsa!

It all comes down to why do you dance, I guess. [shrug] There are those who just want those flashy moves and think that's what dancing is!! More power to them and their friends. When I hang out with my friends I am not there to show of, but to enjoy their company, for us to feed off each other, to enjoy the give and take of conversation. I don't care what those others out there are thinking or observing!! For dancing I'm having a conversation with my partner in our musical world, and that does not translate into the sole purpose of showing them off to those outside this world.

Now I'm going to shut up and do the 101 other things that I need to do today!! :)

[vey]

To me feeding off each other's energy is an essential element of partner dancing. If it isn't there we might as well be doing solo freestyling!!

Wow, that's such an excellent point, Sagitta :!: :!: :!:

[salsachinita]

When I go out to clubs there are always GOOD dancers there that do all the flashy stuff and get the crowd going. And then here I come doing my basic step and cross body lead..........It seems the good followers get bored with me since I dont do the fancy stuff.

I've experienced that too when I visited L.A......from a follower's persective though. All the leaders wanna do was to put me into fancy turn patterns after turn patterns :roll: ! If I couldn't keep up, "Well, she can't dance!" (have you read Edie the Salsa Freak's laterst articles about her experience touring all the different cities around the world...?)

Knowing how to do flashy stuff etc. doesn't automatically makes you a great leader (or a great dancer, for that matter). My favourite patners make me feel special during those 3 minutes of a song, and they are not necessarily from the elite set........we don't need to steal the show on the dance floor to have fun (ok, I am a ham, so stealing the show every now & then is great fun too), it is more important about expressing your feelings via the music.....through your partner.

Have you tried visiting other cities for salsa.....? All the cities have their own local salsa 'culture'........definely worth checking out :wink: !

[youngsta]

Come to Denver! :wink:

[redhead]

From a follower's point of view: I never ask people I don't know, at least visually. It's just the way i was brought up, I guess. I'm not doing it on purpose - I'm just convinced that being refused is much more humiliating for the ladies.I like when guys ask me to dance, and I dance with everyone who asks (except for 3 guys on my black list).Some leaders at lower skill level told me that they were kinda' afraid to ask me - they thought I'd say "no", but they said they had fun afterwards! And funny thing - if people see you dancing with someone they know, even if they don't know you, they're likely to ask you also! Chain reaction :idea:

[dancin/dj]

hello all im a newbie 8) .there is a pecking order in the dance world in mostly all the dances i do and dj,im a advanced salsa-hustle -and west coast swing dancer, its a shame to see this, i do La style salsa and some miami style,i quess its the same the world over, as salsachina has had her immersion in the (scene). my experiance has been( sometimes) the quote beg-or intermediate dancers are better than the advanced dancers because there not as puffed up,and certain people hear- feel- the music and dance more to the music because the not always showing off, dont get me wrong theres a place for that- im a performer and a ham sometimes 8) , i've had some wonderful dances w/women who had a good ear and were not boxed in to certain patterns and were not advanced.anyway yes theres a pecking order as best i can i dont want to be a part of that.make love to the music and the dance-and have fun :)