same sex competitive couples

[Laura]

In another thread, Kitty asked:
They are just not USA Dance sanctioned. Why wouldn't we want to keep it that way?
I replied:

Why wouldn't we want to change it? In the US, at least, this becomes a question beyond just sport. (My personal feeling is that it should only be a question of sport, and that there are solutions that would allow for same-sex couples if people would only drop the non-sport implications and focus on doing something for the dancers.)

So, if you feel like it...discuss!

[Me]

Wearing tails would be a kick and a half. ^_^

[suburbaknght]

Ballroom dance is a sport of tradition and part of the appeal is preserving tradition. One of those traditions is of men and women competing, and that should be preserved for posterity if nothing else. At the same time there is nothing inherently wrong with same-sex dancing and a great deal wrong with exclusion. Keeping separate categories of competition accomplishes this, and as leary as I am of "separate but equal" I don't see another way to do it.

[samina]

Wearing tails would be a kick and a half. ^_^

personally, i was thinking that two chicas dancing samba would be just gorgeously fun...

[NielsenE]

have to watch out for rolls though... the shapes can cause some "locking" in the upper body that I've heard can be quite uncomfortable

[samina]

um... like braces you mean?

[Kitty]

have to watch out for rolls though... the shapes can cause some "locking" in the upper body that I've heard can be quite uncomfortable

that also happens in standard...

[Alskling]

Ballroom dance is a sport of tradition and part of the appeal is preserving tradition. One of those traditions is of men and women competing, and that should be preserved for posterity if nothing else. At the same time there is nothing inherently wrong with same-sex dancing and a great deal wrong with exclusion. Keeping separate categories of competition accomplishes this, and as leary as I am of "separate but equal" I don't see another way to do it.

I'm in agreement with this. I've never understood the reasoning behind absolute prohibition of any kind of same sex events at any comp. I don't think organizers should ever be required to run same sex events, but I don't see why they should be prohibited from doing so if they wish.

I can see three possibilities for types of events being run:
traditional male leader/female follower
same sex leader/follower
female leader/male follower

Don't know how many people would be interested in dancing non-traditional events, but I've see some amazing same sex and role switching choreography which was beautiful to watch from a pure dance perspective. Seems a shame to ban any exploration of that.

[Kitty]

Don't know how many people would be interested in dancing non-traditional events, but I've see some amazing same sex and role switching choreography which was beautiful to watch from a pure dance perspective. Seems a shame to ban any exploration of that.


well that's where it gets tricky. Role switching, physical advantages and disadvantages of same sex couples, difference in the look, certainly make it impossible to adjudicate an event with same sex couples and regular couples fairly.
So those events should certainly be separate.

[Me]

personally, i was thinking that two chicas dancing samba would be just gorgeously fun...


Oooh, double the scantily clad wigglin fun. I like it!

[Kitty]

Oooh, double the scantily clad wigglin fun. I like it!

haha

there was a same sex/ reverse role samba event couple years back.. it got documented in form of videos on the MIT site.. so you can check out the interlocking action right there...

[samina]

Oooh, double the scantily clad wigglin fun. I like it!

fun showcase idea...

[wooh]

that also happens in standard...

My instructor trying to lead me in contact is a hoot. Since her head is as high as my ample bosoms. (We won't even get into lower body problems with it!):D
Of course, she says she has a lot more trouble with girls the same height.:raisebro:

[Me]

haha

I think there are videos available on the MIT site..

Oh really????

.....

Wait, what's that sound?

Oh, it's the collective sound of keyboards clicking as all the guys here Google for it. Yay Google! :google:

[Kitty]

Wait, what's that sound?

Oh, it's the collective sound of keyboards clicking as all the guys here Google for it. Yay Google! :google:


just a warning: it is not limited to only girl-girl action...

[White Chacha]

haha

there was a same sex/ reverse role samba event couple years back.. it got documented in form of videos on the MIT site.. so you can check out the interlocking action right there...

I sponsored that event :-)

[Me]

All kidding aside, please watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzcTBUtjzWQ&mode=related&search=

[White Chacha]

Oh, that's great!

[samina]

All kidding aside, please watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzcTBUtjzWQ&mode=related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzcTBUtjzWQ&mode=related&search=)

yes, have seen that before... i absolutely adore that performance!

[Alskling]

All kidding aside, please watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzcTBUtjzWQ&mode=related&search=

That's magnificent.

[Me]

I love them. :D Enrique & Guillermo De Fazio "Los Hermanos Macana" make a living making us ladies look bad, LOL!

[White Chacha]

So on the discussion about USA Dance and same sex competition...

I think that USAD is happy to take a lady leader's membership money while not recognizing her desire to compete in her chosen role. Maybe the membership form should just say "lady leaders don't bother with the danceport athelete membership"?

[Throwaway Overshare]

The form does effectively say that by reference to the published rules, doesn't it?

[fascination]

last year at ohio I saw pro am same sex...pro lady wearing tails...unless I'd had too many gin and tonics...meh, no biggie...

[dance234]

Since pro-am is a money maker, it will doubtless be a pioneer if the same-sex thing ever gains any momentum.

[meow]

Ballroom dance is a sport of tradition and part of the appeal is preserving tradition. One of those traditions is of men and women competing, and that should be preserved for posterity if nothing else. At the same time there is nothing inherently wrong with same-sex dancing and a great deal wrong with exclusion. Keeping separate categories of competition accomplishes this, and as leary as I am of "separate but equal" I don't see another way to do it.

I have no problem with same sex couples dancing together socially or in a competition that is separate from 'regular' (for want of a better word) comps.
Firstly the adjudication of mixing the events would be an adjudication nightmare - how can comparisons be made fairly? Same-sex ice skating pairs would be an adjudication problem as well.
Secondly, I do agree with preserving the traditional men and women dancing.
There was a same-sex Dancesport Championship held in Aust earlier this year. These events are successful and perhaps there should be more of them.

[Peaches]

All kidding aside, please watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzcTBUtjzWQ&mode=related&search=
OMG. That's wonderful.

I hope you don't mind, Me, but I'm going to link to this in the AT videos section.

[fascination]

OMG. That's wonderful.

I hope you don't mind, Me, but I'm going to link to this in the AT videos section.
yum, I'll take them both, thank you very much

[danceronice]

Firstly the adjudication of mixing the events would be an adjudication nightmare - how can comparisons be made fairly? Same-sex ice skating pairs would be an adjudication problem as well.
.

You rang?

Obviously, in Olympic-eligible, ISU-rules skating, there aren't any of what are called "similar pairs". (The only disciplines are men's singles, ladies' singles, ice dance, and pairs, and outside the Olympic track, synchro.) However, in USFSA-sanctioned club competitions, the category exists. It's judged as a separate competition from regular pairs, and it tends to emphasize shadow skating, side by side spins and jumps, and throw jumps, rather than lifts. I've actually seen male-male pair throws done quite well, but because of the size similiarity, things like overhead lifts aren't allowed. The Gay Games, which are sanctioned by the International Skating Institute (ISI), have same-sex pairs as well judged under ISI's Artistic rules. It's not so much that it's hard to judge, it's that the physical demands were built around one parter being significantly smaller than the other so that it's hard to find two men or two women who can execute the moves correctly.

In ice dance, strictly speaking there's nothing in the compulsory dances that means you can't switch 'lead' and 'follow', except that the steps are labled "lady's" or "man's." In the Original Dance or Free Dance, though, we're back to lifts, meaning there at least needs to be a bigger, stronger, half of the team.

I agree that there are artistic possibilities to a same-sex dance couple, but I also agree that I don't really think it could be judged against opposite-sex pairs. And I confess part of the visual appeal for me in ballroom is a physical differential--shorter woman, taller man, complimentary physiques without being copies of each other. So for show programs, too, I would rather watch opposite-sex couples. YMMV.

[tangotime]

Have some news for you all- In the u.k. we have had ladies/ladies, mini in- house comps. for multi yrs . It seldom ,if ever, goes beyond Junior level ( ? )
Have not checked out the current situation, but it probably still exists .

Twas quite common when I was but a wee lad .

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of gender as a proxy for size. It's quite possible (if not as likely) to have a same-sex/reverse-role couple with an ideal height difference. And besides, if the partners were of the same height, wouldn't they then be facing the same disadvantages as a similarly sized traditional-role couple? As a short guy (5'4"), I seem to be better suited for following most of the guys and many of the girls whom I meet.

[marktheshark]

Personally I find same gender competitive dancing unappealing.

In our comps here in Greece you do see a fair share of same sex couples in the lower categories (e.g. syllabus steps only), but they are by far the least interesting to watch.

There's just something about a girl dancing the rumba with another girl that doesn't feel right...

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Personally I find same gender competitive dancing unappealing.

In our comps here in Greece you do see a fair share of same sex couples in the lower categories (e.g. syllabus steps only), but they are by far the least interesting to watch.

There's just something about a girl dancing the rumba with another girl that doesn't feel right...
I was at the Frameline Film Festival in San Francisco last weekend. I watched a series of 5 shorts on same-sex dancing. What really stood out for me was a shot of two very good-looking guys doing a rumba together - positively beautiful. Judging by the audience reaction, I think most everyone agreed with me.

[anp73ga31]

wooh and I always love to shake up the old people at social dances doing a girl/girl viennese waltz...

[Joe]

You are just two wild and crazy girls.

[anp73ga31]

You are just two wild and crazy girls.

ha ha! not really...we've just refused to let the lack of guys keep us from dancing :D

[samina]

wooh and I always love to shake up the old people at social dances doing a girl/girl viennese waltz...

huh... had never thought of this... must brush up on leading skills...

[White Chacha]

WV is the best dance for role swapping. Symmetric apart from the hold :-)

[samina]

sounds like a good way to begin, then... will have to practice that a bit with pro... :)

[White Chacha]

So there's been discussion about the difficulty of judging same-sex couples in combined events. We seem to manage it for collegiate comps. I know we have our ideal of what the couple should look like, but dancers still have to swing, execute technique, use cuban motion, have body flight, communicate(!) and all the other things we do as appropriate in the 19 dances.

[anp73ga31]

WV is the best dance for role swapping. Symmetric apart from the hold :-)

Yes, I would imagine it's easier than most (though swing and hustle are pretty easy as well). I've tried to convince my other girl friend to try doing VW with me but she not entirely convinced its easy to do yet. lol!

As for same sex dancing in competitions, I think its cool and would love to watch it (and possibly participate? lol!), but would not like to see it mixed in with opposite sex dancing....I think it would be too hard to judge and the attention would take away from the regular dancers.

[meow]

When you go social dancing, no-one cares who you are dancing with, as long as they are alive. There are usually more women than men so girls dancing together goes un-noticed.
But in a comp, I must confess that I think it should be a man and a woman (traditional as well as my personal preference) and same-sex couples should have their own comps. I know my view may not be politically correct but that is what I think.

[Kitty]

So there's been discussion about the difficulty of judging same-sex couples in combined events. We seem to manage it for collegiate comps. I know we have our ideal of what the couple should look like, but dancers still have to swing, execute technique, use cuban motion, have body flight, communicate(!) and all the other things we do as appropriate in the 19 dances.

in the syllabus category where the main challenge is to remember the steps and stay on your feet (correction: on your own feet). And have a good posture.

in open levels there are a lot of other things, such as teh power and strength (easier for guys), the flexibility and softnes of arms (easier for girls), the look, the performance (and for that you need to play the role well), and other gender specific aspects: girls should be flexible and soft and feminine, guys: manly and strong... and a lot more of actual lead and follow.

[fascination]

I just don't even get why it's an issue

[liz]

Have thought of do the gay games..Even went so far as to talk to a pro girl( not gonna name names) I think it would be alot of fun...

[carmello]

I just don't even get why it's an issue

It shouldn't be an issue, only if the Girl/Guy wears high heels and a dress.
Just to level the playing field,

[kayak]

I notice that most of the comments so far are from women. I'll just suggest that if you think there is a shortage of guys dancing, there would be WAY fewer if there were many guy/guy couples dancing. It is just a guy thing.

[Throwaway Overshare]

I notice that most of the comments so far are from women. I'll just suggest that if you think there is a shortage of guys dancing, there would be WAY fewer if there were many guy/guy couples dancing. It is just a guy thing.

Social dancers maybe; competitors with such personal insecurity would not survive. You will pretty much have to dance with a male coach now and then as part of your training, and chances are at some point you'll take a turn around the room with a male collegue just for laughs.

[RIdancer82]

When you go social dancing, no-one cares who you are dancing with, as long as they are alive. There are usually more women than men so girls dancing together goes un-noticed.
But in a comp, I must confess that I think it should be a man and a woman (traditional as well as my personal preference) and same-sex couples should have their own comps. I know my view may not be politically correct but that is what I think.

At college comps, the number of female competitors is overwhelming in comparison to the number of male competitors at times. Unless you can find some guys for ALL these ladies to dance with, same-sex couples are the only way many of these ladies will be able to get out on the competition floor. Would most of them rather be dancing w/ a guy? YES. But there aren't enough of them to go around. For most of these ladies, this is only a temporary solution until they find a male partner. I speak from experience on this subject since for years while I was looking for a partner, I was also a team captain of a collegiate team. I had lots of ladies and only a few men on the team and all the ladies wanted to dance, so I started to learn how to lead. I competed many times as a leader (and on many occasions when I was leading, I managed to kick my previous male partner's butts out on the comp floor!) For the most part, it doesn't seem like there is any more difficulty judging them than there is judging traditional couples.

Note that all the above applies to college comps.... I can see that this wouldn't work at most non-collegiate comps for various reasons.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Note that all the above applies to college comps.... I can see that this wouldn't work at most non-collegiate comps for various reasons.
Why wouldn't it work?

[RIdancer82]

Why wouldn't it work?

well it wouldn't currently work w/ the way the rules are written.... I should have been clearer about meaning that

[Terpsichorean Clod]

well it wouldn't currently work w/ the way the rules are written.... I should have been clearer about meaning that
Oh, okay. I thought you were going to talk about some correlation between older bodies and ..."locking" in the upper body... ;)

[kayak]

Social dancers maybe; competitors with such personal insecurity would not survive. You will pretty much have to dance with a male coach now and then as part of your training, and chances are at some point you'll take a turn around the room with a male collegue just for laughs.

Yes, I have actually learned a lot leading a male instructor and it is a real challenge to try dancing the ladies part. It is actually interesting how much I have to lead with my center with someone nearly the same weight as me. Dancing with a guy just for laughs is no problem and there are even screw around same sex "comps" at my dance club. That is a world apart from would I want to dance with a guy enough to be competing or would I want my guy friends to know I compete with a guy. Just my .02.

[elisedance]

Dancing with a guy just for laughs is no problem and there are even screw around same sex "comps" at my dance club. That is a world apart from would I want to dance with a guy enough to be competing or would I want my guy friends to know I compete with a guy. Just my .02.

Partner dancing can obviously be many things but it boils down to, a safe, way for two people to meet and share body space and motion. Each of us obviously wants to do this with our own set of people - be that same or different sex, race, height, looks or whatever. It is a very personal decision with all sorts of ramifications - a spin round the floor with a fellow student is very different from one with your hearthrob. Doing this in front of an audience, in particular of people that you know, raises the stakes since we are then also signalling what type of person we see ourselves hanging out with.

Now translate this to the spectator. For me, the most interesting people to watch dancing are those where there is a palpable emotional connnection between them. I think as spectators we are all looking for our own type of dance connection in the performers. Thus, with same-sex partners it is not surprizing that such strong reactions are evoked - to one viewer a male-male couple that is mechanical might be unatractive but tollerable whereas one that expresses emotion, affection or sexuality could well be repulsive. On the other hand, a differnet viewer might be more caught up by the couple's ability to express these emotions rather than what their actual sexes (or genders) are. Personally, it depends very much on the actual couple - more so for same sex couples than opposite sex ones but I have seen outstanding dancing by both. Indeed, when a same-sex couple's dancing 'works' it can be far more emotionally stimulating because of the added social tension.

[kayak]

Elisedance,

Sorry for the slow response. I was out dancing last weekend ;)

I like your answer. I just know guys in general are more homophobic than women. I also think younger people are generally more tolerant of same sex activities than older ones. So my point was that a dance event coordinator would have to take the differences in to account when looking at their dance customer base. If their business planning targets guys who are in touch with their inner-self, same sex comps might be a good idea. If a lot of the guys that would go say "inner what????", same sex comps might not be a hot move.

There are a lot of DF threads about not enough male partners.