Argetine Tango Showdance by Latin Champions Jukka and Sirpa

[Musique]

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It's choreographed and it's not "pure" argentine tango.
Jukka and Sirpa are international style latin world champions.
This is my favorite performance of theirs.
Wonder how AT dancers like it...:)

[Me]

This was interesting.

I appreciate their attempt. It was a sincere one, and not entirely bad at all. I'm definitely going to send this link to some friends. :) Fusion is always risky. You have to appreciate the piece as fusion, and it can be difficult to do that. You sort of have to take your Latin glasses and pop a lens out, and take your AT glasses and pop a lens out, and not all audiences can (or want) to do that.

One thing I like about this is the couple does have chemistry. They have nice long steps and obvious skill – it would be interesting to see them train intensely and dance a hardcore Argentine Tango piece. But, since they are already so accomplished as Latin champions, I doubt they’ll do that!

If I were to critique this performance, I would say…
I have difficulty watching parts of this because the movement at times, though skilled, is unnatural to my eye, and I fear the dreamy and fluid song choice (Oblivion) unfortunately serves to draw attention to this. The tango vocabulary that is there (hooks=ganchos) at times appears muscled and placed there, which gives it the unnatural appearance. I suspect this comes from the movement being imitated rather than learned. But, this is a very common gripe AT people have about dancers from other professions trying on AT for an exhibition. My only other major gripe is all the spinning and posing from Dancesport because it has no place at all in Oblivion. I appreciate the attempt to be dynamic and do know that this is indeed a fusion piece but it doesn’t fit the song Oblivion. But, I do adore Oblivion, so I’m probably being a bit finicky there. :)

Thanks for posting this. It will be interesting to see what other people think.


P.S. So Musique... are you... interested in Argentine Tango? Do you ever feel something is... missing... from your dancesport? I think you might like it here... Come play with us! :twisted:

[Twirly]

I thought it was interesting too. They definitely didn't move like AT dancers, that's for sure. And it was funny to see them come out looking all aggressive with lots of attitude, and then hear "Oblivion" come on. The music didn't seem to fit the movements at all throughout.

But I agree that you have to try to see it for what it is. And they are obviously great dancers.

[bordertangoman]

Well the choice of Oblivion is a good start ( though the purists will grumble, I know), and I agree with Twirly that some of the movements were too spiky for the music. The lifts were well executed for the most part and the performance was very polished,she could have done with learning a few leg/foot decorations. it would have helped with the idea of the man being a foil for the woman, and the idea of playing or teasing the man.
But with legs like that I wouldn't complain if she was dancing with me :wink:

[Musique]

It's interesting reading your comments as well. And thanks for the welcome. (:


As a new comer to AT ( I do international style 10 dance), I'm still training my eyes to better appreciate AT. So can't comment on Jukka and Sirpa's AT movement quality or choreography/music choice. But from my ballroom/dancesport point of view, it is pure good dancing, great chemistry and connection, the combination of dynamics and subtlety interprets the music well and tells a story.

Here's another Argentine Tango, Paso Doble fusion number by Slavik and Karina. World latin champions too. Karina is my favorite female dancer. But I have to say I like Jukka and Sirpa's use of AT movements much better. The whole story of S&K's number is about dynamics, but they didn't do those AT figures justice.
JNP_VpXu_xc

[Me]

*sigh* I can't get the Karina/Slavik video to load.

I don't know what is wrong with Youtube lately. Half the time I try to watch videos they just and load and... never play.

[bjp22tango]

*sigh* I can't get the Karina/Slavik video to load.

I don't know what is wrong with Youtube lately. Half the time I try to watch videos they just and load and... never play.

Sometimes, especially when I have been watching a lot of these embedded youtube videos in a row, when I click on the video only "loading" comes up with a frozen screen. If I click on it again, usually I will be redirected to the original YouTube video where I can watch it with no problem.

You might be having the same problem.

[Peaches]

*sigh* I can't get the Karina/Slavik video to load.

I don't know what is wrong with Youtube lately. Half the time I try to watch videos they just and load and... never play.I'm having the exact same problem.

[Twirly]

I think usually ballroom dancers just have the wrong frame, and it's so obvious. When you look at really good AT dancers their upper bodies look so relaxed and still.

The difference is particularly obvious in close embrace, which nearly always looks weird and unnatural, but also in open.

[spectator]

I don't like it. It's a personal thing. It is a bit cheeky calling it AT when the most important elements are absent. If you hadn't said it was an AT show case i wouldn't have guessed.

[Twirly]

Suppose they mean "Show dance with some Argentine Tango moves".

[Me]

It's interesting reading your comments as well. And thanks for the welcome. (:


As a new comer to AT ( I do international style 10 dance), I'm still training my eyes to better appreciate AT. So can't comment on Jukka and Sirpa's AT movement quality or choreography/music choice. But from my ballroom/dancesport point of view, it is pure good dancing, great chemistry and connection, the combination of dynamics and subtlety interprets the music well and tells a story.

Here's another Argentine Tango, Paso Doble fusion number by Slavik and Karina. World latin champions too. Karina is my favorite female dancer. But I have to say I like Jukka and Sirpa's use of AT movements much better. The whole story of S&K's number is about dynamics, but they didn't do those AT figures justice.
JNP_VpXu_xc

I got the Karina video to load and it's not my cup of tea at ALL, lol!

It's like the dramatization of Dancesport murdering Paso except the DJ put in the wrong CD.

[bastet]

I watched it a couple of times and certainly liked the first one better than the second. I guess for me, what I would consider "fusion" would be a dance that was done by dancers who knew and understood the dances being "fused" and so would have a shot at knowing how best to do it. So, in that it is a choreographed showcase, where the dancers probably don't actually do AT but were decently coached in approximating the movements and incorporating it in their choreography of a dance the clearly DO do well, I would probably consider it a nicely done Argentine "inspired" piece rather than "fused" (just MHO and maybe too technical a point?). (I dance Swango (fusion of AT and WCS) and I know and love both dances so it really is fusion, since we know entry and exit points to cross back and forth and what rules we need to apply (lead and follow) to make the moves happen.)

The second video just grates on me. For one, I can't stand Paso Doble. The only thing AT inspired I saw in that video was a short set of boleos that only showed they don't really understand how a boleo works but probably included it because it's a common "show tango" move. The lady does not lift her leg and let the man fling it around. It's an adornment of a very natural reaction in a change of direction.

[GJB]

I don't know AT but I like both videos. I also think that Oblivion is a great song regardless of whether it's appropriate for AT or not. I think Louis Van Amstel and Joanna Leunis may have used it for a Rumba but I'm not sure.

As for the second video, I doubt they would have called it AT.

[Ampster]

From a pure ballroom dance point of view, they showed off their prowess really well. It was dancesport competition grade.

From an pure Argentine Tango point of view. It was horrible & ludicrous! Just as bad as the Argentine Tango exhibition in the second season of DWTS. It all looked contrived. Too much posing. Too much fake drama. The movements were wrong. The frames were wrong, etc., etc. It was very obvious that these people are not Argentine Tango dancers. They just memorized some moves. It was hillarious to watch. We know that it was choreographed, but they couldn't even make it look like the movements were led.

It is reminiscent of the scene from the movie, "Strictly Ballroom." When they did a Paso Doble in front of a crowd that actually knew how to dance a real Paso Doble. They got laughed off the stage. Same scenario.

[Peaches]

I finally got those things to play on my computer!

Ditto what Ampster said. Fine for ballroom dancesport showdance... And no doubt that they're terriffic dancers. I can appreciate it as just good dancing by good dancers.

But it's not AT. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, I find it kind of offensive that it's billed as such (not by you, Musique...by the dancers selling it as such). Even though it's choreographed, I'd appreciate it if they at least made an effort to understand it as a separate art form. This is just...insulting.

[Twilight_Elena]

Very good dancing by Slavik and Karina. But it's not AT in any way I can think of. Jukka and Sirpa did a much better job at it.

T_E

[bjp22tango]

I don't see this as a Paso/AT fusion. I see it as a Latin DanceSport showdance showcasing Paso Doble/Rumba/Samba actions with some expressive open partner work which incidentally is danced to a piece of Tango Nuevo music. I see two, maybe three, "references" to AT but no outright attempt to incorporate AT into the dance.

Many competitors, when choreographing showdances, will use unorthodox music.

I've seen classical music used by couples in past "Championship Ballroom Dancing" comps where they used it to showcase Tango/Foxtrot/Waltz all in the same number.

I would describe this along the same lines. I see so many AT dancers dancing to non-AT music. Why shouldn't it work the other way too? ;P
At least Paso Doble and AT Tango have their roots in the same music.

[bjp22tango]

I mean Slavik/Karina in above post.

[GJB]

I finally got those things to play on my computer!

Ditto what Ampster said. Fine for ballroom dancesport showdance... And no doubt that they're terriffic dancers. I can appreciate it as just good dancing by good dancers.

But it's not AT. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, I find it kind of offensive that it's billed as such (not by you, Musique...by the dancers selling it as such). Even though it's choreographed, I'd appreciate it if they at least made an effort to understand it as a separate art form. This is just...insulting.

Who says Slavik and Karina "billed it as such"? Only the original poster of this thread billed it as such. So, I don't think there is anything to be insulted about. I don't think they called it AT. I have the DVD that contains this routine and there is no mention of AT.

[Musique]

Who says Slavik and Karina "billed it as such"? Only the original poster of this thread billed it as such. So, I don't think there is anything to be insulted about. I don't think they called it AT. I have the DVD that contains this routine and there is no mention of AT.
I'm the one to blame. Neither title mentions argentine tango. And I'll never call Slavik and Karina's number an "AT" showdance. The used several AT moves. I think it'd be interesting to compare their interpretation/usage to Jukka and Sirpa's, which is not marked as AT either. Their number's title is simply "Segue".

[Peaches]

Who says Slavik and Karina "billed it as such"? Only the original poster of this thread billed it as such. So, I don't think there is anything to be insulted about. I don't think they called it AT. I have the DVD that contains this routine and there is no mention of AT.Ok, OK! Jeebus. My fault, all apologies.

That being said...there were still plenty of AT-ish moves that display a complete lack of understanding of what it is they're actually trying to portray. I still find that quite insulting. If they're going portray a dance, at least make an attempt to do it well.

[bastet]

I guess to put the shoe on the other foot...if a pair of well know tango dancers had choreographed a dance to a piece of music and incorporated moves from something like Paso Doble or rumba (and I don't see why they couldn't with all the alternative tango out there), and it was clear they were excellent tango dancers but just didn't have a clue about how latin dances work, would you who dance latin feel the same? Would you laugh at their attempt? Or be annoyed at how they purport to perform moves and concepts they have never studied in depth and so don't really have mastery over? Just because one dances tango, one doesn't automatically have mastery over all other dance forms and so vice versa.

I think what probably annoys the AT people is the apparent inclusion of moves that are well know in tango show dance for the sake of the "wow" factor rather than that they have taken time to understand how the tango actually works from a lead/follow perspective.

Again- the first video did a better job, they are lovely dancers...(but, sorry, ganchos for the follow are led with the leaders torso...not just inserted becasue the guy leaves his leg sticking out.) That's a breach of technicality that is obvious to someone who dances tango. Just as if someone who dances latin were to see someone of pro caliber from another dance try to do a hockey stick or something from a latin dance and do it with poor technique. (sorry- haven't done latin in ages and am forgetting names now but hopefully the picture is clear.)

[Peaches]

Exactly.

I've got no problem with true fusion (not my cuppa tea, really, but it doesn't bother me). I've got no problem with non-traditional styles, or music.

I just want to see it done justice. And if high-ups are going to make a show of it, I'd at least like them to do it the honor (as another art form unto itself) of actually understanding the movements.

I mean, we're talking about obviously talented dancers. I'm sure they're more than capable of it...if they try.

[newbie]

In the Jukka and Sirpa video I failed to see any gancho or boleo or colgada or turns or double-times or cruzada or alteracion or lapiz or enrosque. Certain movements of theirs can somehow be named a barrida, an ocho and a sacada. All in all, a lot is missing.

[Musique]

Now, officially the most discussed thread in AT video forum. (: