Argentine Tango or Ballroom Tango? [Archive]

SDsalsaguy

04-14-2003, 08:57 PM

Hi Alison and welcome to the forums! :D

While each venue is different, my guess is that what you experienced is pretty much the norm. From what I know the Argentinean Tango crowd & scene are the purists of the dance world – more then any other dancers/dance style, all they care about is Argentinean Tango. As with any such generalization there are, of course, exceptions (both locally and individually) but, by and large, I do not think that non-"authentic" elements will be very welcome.

The salsa scene is probably the next most simm8ilar in this regard but, from the people I've met and talked to, Argentinean Tango dancers – as a group – are more then content with nothing else and, in point of fact, prefer this purism/concentration.

At some level this makes some sense to me, since the lead and follow are actually of individual weight shifts (as opposed to of steps), so the room for intricacies and development therewith is, ultimately, of a different magnitude.

As far as the poll questions is concerned, I voted for ballroom but this is because I don't know more then three or so "patterns" (already showing a ballroom bent) in Argentinean. I love to watch Argentinean, however, and would very much like to learn when opportunity permits.

will35

08-28-2003, 04:30 PM

Concerning the poll: I am surprised to see that Argentine Tango even stands a chance against ballroom. I know the question is which one the voter likes to dance, but it would be interesting to see which one the voter likes to watch more. I voted for Argentine Tango, because it is so much more than any other dance. In fact, I do not consider Argentine Tango a dance at all. Why? The difference in one dance and the next are the particular steps and particular rhythm. We don't really have steps in Argentine tango, and the music can be danced with a million different rhythms. So, if Argentine Tango is not a particular dance because there are no steps and no rhythm (not to mention that there are several types of music, waltz, tango, milonga that use the tango dance system), then what is Argentine Tango? I suggest it is an entirely different WAY to dance. The way the leader just picks a direction to move and the follower follows without knowing any tiny choreographies beforehand is completley unlike ballroom style which is another WAY to dance. Now, we get to the question about AT dancers not accepting other WAYS to dance on the milonga floor. There are several issues. First is the music. A good AT dancer just lets the music do the real leading. If the music is sad, guess what, the dancer moves his body that way. If it is languid or sly or sophisticated or fun or even sexy, guess what, the dancer moves that way. The ballroomer is stuck with what he and his partner know beforehand. Even if they are double platinum 24 Karat syllabus, it is still so much less than a good AT dancer can do. So, the AT dancer takes up the slack by moving around the ballroomer on the floor. Because the AT dancer can. He/she can stop, start, move right , left, back whatever at any time without going through a pattern to get in the right position. And good AT dancers very seldom kick other good AT dancers in the head on the floor. The second point is that AT is a social dance. That means when a good leader goes to the milongas, ALL the ladies want to dance with him. The same with a good follower. And they all can dance with each other without asking questions about syllabus or whatever. So, if you are not prepared to be a part of the milonga, it is not a good idea to go. And it is impossible to be a part of what is going on in the milonga if you cannot dance with just any old body there. Here is another difference. It is a question of competition. Ballroomers love competition, but they don't understand the kind of competition that AT dancers love. The good AT dancer is always competing, with himself. It is a lifelong study and a quest to be the best one can be, not the best at executing someone else's plan. Because there is no plan, no syllabus, etc. Just the music and the couple. When I am at milongas, and a new leader comes in who is really good, I can hear the women start to whisper among themselves. The one who just danced with him says, "I really recommend you dance with him." It is not about how they show off together or how many steps he knows. He has a feel for the music and he lets it guide him, and the follower gets it(because a good follower has sensitivity). The follower understands what the leader is saying without a word. I certainly hope no ballroomers are offended by what I write, but ballroom dances are just dances, AT is a completley different way to dance and a different way of thinking about dance. It is the most social of social dances. The only thing that comes close is Lindy, and after all, it is not even close. Alison asks if AT dancers will ever accept her. I can only say that I think GOOD AT dancers accept one thing: dedication. That is dedication to the dance, the music, the partner, the floor on which it is practiced because there are others dancing too, and dedication to the culture from which the dance came. Even the best AT dancers that are famous and so forth still learn and adapt their dance to the music and to their partners. It is something to work on and create for the rest of your life, not something with a certificate of competence and a number pinned on your back at the end.

MissAlyssa

08-29-2003, 01:49 AM

I'm not going to vote because I have never danced Argentine and I rarely dance ballroom tango. I think this is a really good topic for the tango lovers though!! :D

msc

08-29-2003, 03:34 AM

DM-
Either one, depending on the music. I've seen a really cool Tango routine by Georgiani and Manfredini, where they switch from Argentine to Milonga to Standard and back, as the music switches. The athletcisim and speed required for a strong standard Tango probably makes it my favorite though.

Alison-
Think Foxtrot, without the rise and fall. There's no percussive beat to AT, the music is fairly smooth, so the dancers tend to move in a smooth fashion. All the other rules apply, regarding posture, center tone, leading following from the center, continuous weight transfer, etc. The hips usually are more neutral, rather than forward poised as you would have in standard. In the old-fashioned AT, the foreheads actually touch as the top lines lean towards each other, that's not the way it's usually danced, but I've run up on a few Argentine ladies who enjoy that style.

will typifies the attitude of many in the AT community. Whatever. It's a nice dance, but not really superior to WCS or Salsa, just different.

SDsalsaguy

08-29-2003, 03:46 AM

Wow, must have been a great show! I've "only" seen them compete, but I imagine that if any couple could really do justice to such a crossover performance it would have to be them or Pino/Bucciarelli. I did see Georgiani/Manfredini when they won the 2002 World Classic Showdance title and man, that was something I'll never forget. The pure power, snap, and rotation of their pivot actions are something I've never seen duplicated. I'll have the chance to see them do a show in October so am really looking forward to that. :D

will35

08-29-2003, 07:15 PM

So, this means somebody is voting for one or the other but not saying why. Very sneaky.

will35

08-30-2003, 04:54 PM

MSC,
What do you mean by "continuous weight transfer"?

Well, still nobody is saying why they prefer to dance one or the other. Shows and routines are one thing. A social dance is another. Athleticism is fine. I like to watch Michael Jordan play ball, but I don't know if I want to dance with him.
Just so we don't argue over semantics here, I'd like to say that I don't recall writing in any post about better or best. If I did, I apologize. What I should say is that we might make a comparison between ALL ballroom dances and Argentine Tango. There is certainly no comparison between Argentine Tango and American Tango. If Argentine Tango is a dance, then American Tango is a little piece of a dance. People like to claim that American and French or International style tango have their roots in Argentine. I suggest they were completley uprooted when people started to teach and learn steps instead of learning HOW to dance the Tango. It happened in the early days in France and England, and it happens today when somebody who has never danced THE ARGENTINE WAY walks into a milonga and says, "Show me how to do a gancho." As though it would really do any good to gancho some poor lady to death all night without even knowing how to walk WITH a partner WITH the music around a room.
What MSC says is absolutely correct. Argentine Tango is different. It takes some time to learn just how different. Argentine Tango is the perfect popular artistic expression of a fantastic, diverse, fascinating culture. When we agree to the dance, we adopt the culture as our own for a few minutes. It would be quite an insult to do anything less. We are even allowed to re-create the culture expressing our own personailties in the dance. The milonga re-creates the art form every night. Every night, the Tango comes out different, but with what it was before and more. Argentine Tango is as nearly limitless an expression as a true social dance can be. American Tango simply is not.

msc

08-31-2003, 12:17 AM

Actually "continuous transfer of weight" was not the right phrase, but anyway, by continuous transfer of weight, I mean that the weight distribution should evenly transfer from one foot to another. You must pass through a split weight position, where the weight is 50% on either foot (and hence your torso is exactly between your feet,) and continuously or smoothly drive off the supporting foot and receive to the new foot. Hence you don't drive entirely off the supporting foot, then catch with the receiving foot, as many are wont to do. Of course, you should do this in every dance, as long as you aren't doing hopping/kicking/skipping movements.

Here's the point I wanted to make. The weight transfer is not heavily accelerated/decelerated, as is the case in International Tango, but more of a soft flowing nature, as in foxtrot. Also forgot to mention that the steps are taken on the ball of the foot, so that when stepping forward, although you may use compression, you don't stretch the stride out as you would in foxtrot.

The feature that makes AT unique, more than any other, is the emphasis on flicks and kicks. Often times the expression is entirely through the legs, although a trained eye could still detect subtle contractions through the center of a "keen" AT dancer.

One more thing for Alison ... imagine if you went to a Salsa club, and in the middle of the floor, you danced a West Coast Swing or a Lindy Hop. Even if you were right on time, you'd probably get less than friendly looks from the local partisans. That's essentially what you did, even if you didn't realize it at the time.

I'm not a big fan of American style Tango, you're certainly correct that it is mostly a show dance. It usually ends up being a watered down mixture of Paso Doble and International Tango, although a really talented couple can make it look quite nice. I also prefer AT to American Tango, no doubt. AT is far superior to American Tango as a social dance, indeed preferable to International Tango in crowded rooms. In fact AT is about the only "smooth" dance that really works in a smallish room.

will35

08-31-2003, 03:45 PM

I see what you mean about the weight transfer. A simple thing I have heard some teachers use is to teach the new dancers to "collect the feet" between steps. This keeps the follower ready for a movement in any direction. It also puts a little hitch in the step and is not terribly smooth until many hours of practice. But it works.
Certainly the great majority of the movement spectators see in Argentine Tango is from the waist down. But all the movement necessary to make it danceable comes from above the waist. The part about the flicks and kicks I can only call debatable. As a social dance (and I always speak of the Tango that way, even though I don't say it) is very versatile. I am not a very good dancer, and I have never been on a stage, but I can honestly say that I think I have done maybe ten ganchos in my life. My partners have done even fewer boleos. I am also not a fan of sacadas, though they are all lovely in the right place at the right time. I might be wrong about this, but I have found that the longer a person has been dancing the tango, no matter the person's age or generation or nationality, the fewer the kick type things the person does. The thing about a person's tango is that it gets simpler and simpler and almost always more beautiful with time.

will35

08-31-2003, 05:19 PM

From last post:
"no matter the person's age or generation or nationality, the fewer the kick type things the person does. The thing about a person's tango is that it gets simpler and simpler and almost always more beautiful with time."

I see I broke my own rule here. I projected my idea about what is tango onto others. A person's style does not necessarily grow simpler, it grows more "them". If a person is stylistically simple in his/her life, the dance becomes simpler. They have learned all the tricks and eschewed most of them to find their own style. On the other hand, some people get trickier and trickier as time goes by. This is also beautiful if it is sincere. It is a question of personality, and finding oneself takes a good long time.

DanceMentor

09-03-2003, 04:31 PM

I have always loved Argentine Tango, but I have never learned as much as I would like. I was already a ballroom dancer and I performed the tango at a nightclub weekly. I would learn Argentine tango and then incorporate it into my ballroom. I tried to do pure Argentine tango in my performances, but I would always go back to Ballroom. It's kind of like quitting smoking--very difficult. I voted for ballroom out of habit, but I really appreciate Argentine tango, though some may not believe me.

sambagirl

09-03-2003, 06:23 PM

I'm an International Latin dancer so you might think I'd choose International/American Tango, but I'm also a hopeful tanguera. Dancing Argentine Tango is an experience unlike any other partner dance I've done -- including other Latin dances, Ballroom, Swing, WCS. When AT works you feel like your torso is being carried around the dance floor on someone else's legs. It's a very internal pleasure, and one that took me a while to achieve.

I'm such an AT dancer that I've danced AT to International Tango songs at a ballroom function, without too much negative comment. I do have to say that ballroom dancers are a much more tolerant lot than AT dancers: I wouldn't recommend the reverse.

The one thing I can't stand about AT is the pretentiousness and preciousness of the people who dance it. Yes, yes, so many people don't "get" the AT experience and what it's about, and the extraordinary concentration and focus you need to be a good AT partner -- that "living in the moment" thing that AT demands more than any other dance. But the buying into the AT lifestyle thing really turns me off. I DO intend to spend the rest of my life doing AT (not sure I can say that about other dances), but I hope to find other tangueros who are willing to lighten up and stop theorizing!

whtraven

09-03-2003, 08:21 PM

Hello Fellow dancers.

I really enjoyed what will had to say. He is right on. I started with Ballroom and slowly moved over to the Argentine Tango side. Now, I only dance tango (with my favorite being vals).
You have to understand where the tango comes from and that is Argentina. Yes, it was danced differently a hundred years ago when it was introduced to the Europeans than now, but the fact remains of its origins.
In Europe the elite wanted to dance this new hip dance and to make it easy to teach and learn it was standardized; steps were created, and the soul was stolen. For like Will said, every dance is different depending on music and partner. Even the same song played four times in row (as often is case at end of night) in different arrangements can be as different as night and day.
I do disagree with another poster that the emphasis of tango is in kicks. The emphasis is on the feeling; the connection. It is why it is called the Dance of the Heart. It is this connection that keeps me coming back. It keeps eluding me, which is why it is calling chasing the ghost (soon upcoming documentary on old Tangueros of BsAs). I have only had that undescribable feeling a few times since moving to Tango year and a half ago, but the promise of getting to feel that way again keeps me sucked in. It is that giddy feeling inside that makes you want to jump, to scream, to cry, and to laugh all at the same time.
It is true, that Tango community does not embrace ballroom tango dancers. Part of the reason is the difficulty of navigation with other styles of tango. Most authentic milongas are packed tight - like most Glen Miller Orchestra balls are, with the exception that tango dancers have floorcraft, and can adapt their style of dance to the floor conditions. You have lanes, you stay on your lane, you do not pass, you do not hold people up, you use corners, you ask for permission to enter the floor, etc etc etc.
Certainly the tango community could embrace few of the ethics from the ballroom side, such as dressing up, walking the woman off the floor, etc (I am one of the few to do both - fo which all of the women thank me).
I think for that reason it is easier for the ballroom community to ignore or to accept AT dancers at balls than for AT dancers to ignore ballroom dancers at Milongas; Tango dancers can navigate on the floor and do not cause conflict; even if they like to do gaunchos or boleos excessively. The few ballroom dancers that come to the events I attend cause many collisions and headache.
I didn't vote but I vote Tango! :)

oh btw, there are also a dozen styles to dance all three types of tango,
Salon, Milonguero, Nuevo, Fantasy, Stage, etc etc.

tangogirrl

09-04-2003, 04:39 AM

I am a professional ballroom competitor/instructor/studio owner AND a hopeless fanatic of AT. (Just so y'all know where I'm coming from). One of the observations I have made between the 2 scenes reiterates much of what I've already read, but here's my 2cents anyway.

I think that there is a HUGE misunderstanding by AT dancers that ballroom dancing is not lead. I beg to differ. I think that often, newer ballroom instructors teach steps instead of technique; however, anyone who had done ballroom dancing long enough (dedicated enough time) will come to understand all the subtle nuances of lead&follow that DO exist in ALL of the various forms of dance. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. I will admit that there tends to be too much emphasis place on patterns in the Ballroom World :oops: , but that does not mean that the top professionals can only do pre-patterned steps. In fact, to think that ballroom dances is just a bunch of choreography is the assumption that I find to be the most ridiculous :shock: . Might I remind people that ballroom is also a social activity. :lol:

I also have to reiterate that the AT scene could use some ettiquette lessons from the Ballroom scene. I do realize that there are many cultural differences and that the expectations and standards may not always be compatible, but I do feel like it IS important to dress up and to escort the lady on and off the floor.

Speaking of floor, I also have to beg to differ regarding the post that claimed that only AT dancers can manuver the floor. Again, anyone who has done Ballroom dance long enough learns proper floorcraft. Unfortunately there are not enough really good technicians that teach this skill and not enough people who will dedicate enough time to learning it :roll: . My experience with AT is that it is actually much less complicated to manuver and have good floorcraft than with other ballroom dances. (And yes, I've led both AT and Ballroom). So it might seem that all AT dancers learn how to manuver, when in reality it is just much easier to do so.

That's all for now.
Tangogirrl

msc

09-04-2003, 06:38 PM

Amen to that, tangogirrl.

twoleftfeet

09-04-2003, 08:57 PM

I love AT. I enjoy ballroom too. I think AT dancers can be a bit difficult and sometimes I wish they would drop the attitude, but I still love it. I will say AT has improved my ability to follow. I am much more in tune with my partner because of AT.

Perhaps because I am such a big fan of AT, I think the American style looks too theatrical. It just doesn't resonate with me. But, I have seen beautiful American tango.

I would NOT recommend going to a milonga and dancing American style. My observation is AT people would NOT appreciate that gesture at all. I have danced AT at the ballroom studio where I take classes and no one seemed to object although it is important, as with all dance, to honor line of dance.

I have enjoyed the discussion. Thanks to all participants.

will35

09-04-2003, 10:02 PM

First, let me say that I only said I never met anybody who really liked both Argentine and American Tango. That does not mean it is an undesirable or impossible thing to do. If you like them both, good. I have yet to say that I dislike Ballroom Tango, either.
As to theorizing, I don't know what to say. I prefer to be on the floor, but you know how things are. We don't very often just exchange pleasantries and compliments when we talk about things we love. "The nature of criticism is that it is mostly bad", or something like that, said Flannery O'Connor.

"In fact, to think that ballroom dances is just a bunch of choreography is the assumption that I find to be the most ridiculous . Might I remind people that ballroom is also a social activity." -Tangogirl

Ballroom dance would be a much more social activity if someone could gather together all the syllabi and competitions and throw them in the trash. Or did someone who does not dance the ballroom dances infiltrate and destroy the fun by regulating everything years ago? Everywhere you look there are rules in ballroom. Step here, don't step there, wear the right clothing, smile, smile , smile. Look like you are having fun. The ballroom dances have themselves to blame for it. I could think of no more malicious slander than to call dance a sport. Yet, there it is. It does not come from the Argentine Tango "scene".

"I also have to reiterate that the AT scene could use some ettiquette lessons from the Ballroom scene." -Tangogirl

Possibly, but I was trying not to refer so much to the dancers as to the dance itself. I still maintain that the Argentine Tango, not the "scene" is the most social of all social dances.

"My experience with AT is that it is actually much less complicated to manuver and have good floorcraft than with other ballroom dances. (And yes, I've led both AT and Ballroom). " -Tangogirl

Well, you said it, not me. Just any old idiot who dances the Argentine can maneuver. Again, I am talking about the dance not the dancers. There are even some experienced Argentine Tango dancers who choose not to maneuver well.
Although I do escort my partners from the table and back, I think any girl who can get around the room with a partner can also do it alone. I have also noticed that almost all the misunderstandings that we Americans have with the acceptance and the end of a dance in Argentine Tango stem from the neglect of the Argentine way to do things. They call it the "cabeceo," and it works perfectly every time. Americans don't like it much, but we haven't come up with anything nearly as functional.
You may come to one of my milongas and dance the other tangos if I can dance at your dance parties with dirt all over my favorite pair of crusty, old jeans. And foul smelling breath, too. And barerfoot. With soot and ketchup smeared on my face. And little pieces of food falling from my tee shirt.

will35

09-04-2003, 10:05 PM

I meant "barefoot."

pygmalion

09-05-2003, 12:00 PM

I'm showing my complete and total ignorance here. Be warned. :)

I've only ever seen AT danced by others, and attended one or two introductory-type group classes. But it's such a beautiful and sensual dance, and I want to learn.

Where do you start?

will35

09-05-2003, 03:36 PM

Pygmalion, that is a very common question with a very difficult answer. Group classes are not bad. Private classes are not bad. Classes at the local ballroom studio are not necessarily bad. There are some ballroom instructors who might be very good AT instructors. There are Argentines, Americans, French, Belgians, etc. who might all be good. The best advice I heard when starting out was to look at the way the teachers dance, and then try them out as teachers. If you see a teacher dance, and you say, "I want to dance like that," then try it. But remember that somewhere in the middle of it all, you might say, "I don't want to dance like that after all." Then, you switch teachers. A famous Argentine couple said that in the beginning they went around learning a little from each teacher. Now they are famous stage dancers. They come around to the big cities every now and then to do classes. As a pedagogical approach, I lean a little toward the style of what some people call the "Nuevo" people. I am not naming names.
Whatever you do, have fun and good luck. If you like videos, you can give that a shot, too. There is a list on tejastango.com.
Dance with everybody you can find. You'll probably learn more that way than any other. You don't have to take any of my advice. I am not a teacher or a good dancer myself. I just love to see people enjoy the tango, because it is so much fun.

pygmalion

09-05-2003, 04:39 PM

Thanks for the input. Actually there's a studio in town that advertises that they specialize in AT. I've never seen anyone from that studio dance, though, so I think I'll ask around first, and see if anybody's got the skinny on them.

will35

09-05-2003, 05:09 PM

Just say in what part of Florida you live. No names.

pygmalion

09-05-2003, 05:17 PM

Orlando. The couple I'm thinking of has a studio nearby, and are starting a series of group classes within a week or so. I've heard from others that they do a fair amount of performance, and they also run summer workshops for kids.

Does that help, without betraying any confidential info? :)

will35

09-05-2003, 06:10 PM

Sounds like fun. I don't know Orlando.

pygmalion

09-05-2003, 06:15 PM

I'll check it out and let you know.

Jenn

DancePoet

01-26-2005, 10:52 PM

I voted for AT, but was surprised to discover the 10-3 vote.

newbie

01-27-2005, 03:28 AM

Maybe, for sake of equity, this poll should also be posted in the "ballroom" section....

pascal

01-27-2005, 03:37 AM

bordertangoman

01-27-2005, 04:52 AM

Maybe, for sake of equity, this poll should also be posted in the "ballroom" section....

Yeah, what if a "Do you prefer Salsa or A.T ? " poll was posted in the Salsa threads ? The score would be ten thousand to zero.

Therefore? One AT dancer is worth XXX salsa dancers.

(fill in XXX with your own number) :wink: :wink:

bjp22tango

01-27-2005, 05:24 AM

There should be a "I like them equally well choice"

I actually like all three "Tango" styles AT, American, and Standard but I don't really consider them the same dance.

They have evolved in such different directions and even the music used has evolved in three different variants. You can hear a "Tango" and say to yourself That is AT, or that is American, or that is Standard.

I like them all because each requires something different to express them well.

Comparing the three styles is like comparing a Bolero to a Rumba to a Salsa. They all share the same roots in music but have evolved differently over time.

The same for Lindy Hop, WC Swing, and EC Swing,

dancin_feet

01-27-2005, 06:20 PM

Ballroom Tango is my staple. I fell in love with it from my first group lesson 18 months ago. I just love the attitude to it and some of the figures are pretty funky too.

That said, I love AT even more. Maybe because I don't dance it as often and don't know it as intimately so it's still a bit of a mystery to me, but it is definitely my favourite of the two.

So much so that when I suggested to my instructor that I wanted to do a Tango showcase this time around, I told him I wanted AT in there as well. For some reason that the studio has come up with, we can't say we are doing a hybrid Tango/AT routine, but we are styling it with AT kicks and movements. It's going to be great!!

Patapouf

01-27-2005, 07:23 PM

I voted tango argentino! I'm totally addicted to it. It's very different from ballroom. When I do ballroom tango, throughout the whole dance I think more about the steps and patterns, and don't feel anything. But when I do AT, it's a totally different thing. There's no steps to think about, just so totally into the music, the feelings, and the dance, each time I have a good dance with a partner I feel like I just had a great conversation with my partner, even though no words were spoken or needed at all. I love AT! :D

ReneeJoan

01-27-2005, 10:14 PM

As everybody already knows, I'm a one trick pony, so I dance tango to everything. I've never had anybody at a ballroom party complain about this, since I manage to do this one thing so well I always manage to get plenty of partners. If anybody attempted to throw me out because I wasn't dancing "correctly" to the music, all I can say is, I've seen plenty of ballroom dancers whom I don't think, personally, dance anything like what the music is either, so there. I've paid my money fair and square to dance, so there. Shut up and dance, already.

I'd have to say, that the reverse attitude should go at an argentine milonga. If you, as a ballroom dancer, paid your money to come in and dance, then dance. If somebody doesn't like your style of dancing, then tell them you don't like theirs either, and theirs is even less authentic than yours, so there. However, you might not want to say this too loudly. It may just be better to ignore the critics, look totally absorbed in the music, and just keep dancing. Unlike a ballroom dance party, at a milonga, arguments over authenticity of style can lead to knife fights.

Seriously, when I dance tango with a partner who doesn't know argentine tango, but does know american ballroom tango, I just tell my partner to dance the steps that he knows, and I'll dance tango with him the best I can. It's all tango to me, anyway. So far, this seems to work pretty well.

In the end, it's all tango to me, and always will be, I suppose. So, I vote tango.

Renee

tsb

01-27-2005, 11:47 PM

I meant "barefoot."

fyi, you can edit your posts.

tsb

01-27-2005, 11:58 PM

My experience with AT is that it is actually much less complicated to manuver and have good floorcraft than with other ballroom dances. (And yes, I've led both AT and Ballroom). So it might seem that all AT dancers learn how to manuver, when in reality it is just much easier to do so.

if you recognize that a lot of moves AT evolved out of a need to maneuver around tables in a crowded cafe & if the instructor explains it that way ("this is the move & these are good places to use them within the context of the music" as one teacher i've studied with does) the concept of maneuvering is actually quite more simple than with ballroom LOD figures.

i did not vote because i like both (although i'm still much more proficient at ballroom tango, mainly because i can't stand going to milongas - if i may plagarize what one of my dance mentors said about WCS - i like AT - i just don't like the people who dance it.) but would rather do a waltz or a foxtrot over either.

Kitty

01-29-2005, 12:19 AM

I prefer ballroom one cause I know how to dance it and don't know enough about argentine (although i did make attempts to fake it several times).

Chris Stratton

01-29-2005, 02:50 AM

I think AT is more often maneuverable for three reasons:

1) AT dancers are usually encouraged to think of what is possible in a language of smaller actions - they are more aware of their options - than most ballroom dancers.

2) With a non-strict concept of hold and body positions, some motions (particularly forms of turn) are possible in AT that would not be possible or at least not easy in ballroom tango.

3) AT is more closely followed, with less tendancy to build up momentum in a given direction. Not that I think ballroom tango really should either, but it happens most of the time unfortunately.

But most of these are limitations of practice rather than of possibilty. Well trained ballroom dancers are aware of the basic (sub-figure) elements of their language and can recombine them. They are comfortable in some unusual positions - fallaway, left side outside, etc and can make use of those without distorting their hold. Finally, well connected ballroom couples can manage to have a sharp tango, without building up the kind of momentum that would commit them to taking additional steps in a direction that might have become blocked.

Alias

01-29-2005, 04:01 AM

Argentine Tango and Ballroom Tango are two dissimilar dances which are entirely differents, and which are not danced on the same musics.
And Ballroom Tango is much closer to other Ballroom dances (in International Standard).

I'm curious which one you prefer to dance and why.

Without hesitation I prefer Argentine Tango, because I prefer the music and the dance.
There are many reasons and it would be too long to tell right now here in detail.
I have general reasons to prefer (Argentine Tango, swing dance, salsa dance) to Ballroom dance, and some specific to prefer Argentine Tango to Ballroom Tango.

I'm interested in social dancing and not in competition, and I want to reach (or target) the higher levels in dance (which means doing competition in Ballroom, while the best dancers in AT or swing dance or salsa dance are on the floor in social dance).
I want more room for freedom improvisation imagination invention personal dance.
I want to integrate dance in partner dancing, and for example in AT you might possibly integrate some classical or contemporary dance (ballet stuff).

Note:
I know some Ballroom dances (among which Ballroom tango) because I've taken lessons (beginner and intermediate, but not the higher levels which are targeted to competition because I'm not interested in competition) and I've been as a spectator to some Ballroom competition (DanceSport).

I know Argentine Tango because I've taken lessons (from beginner to advanced) with many teachers (this phase is completed) and I've gone to the various practica and bals in my local AT scene (dancing and watching some people dance), and I've seen professional dancers in bals and I've been as a spectator to Argentine Tango shows on stage.

Alias

01-29-2005, 04:37 AM

I'm also curious if you think it is appropriate to dance Argentine Tango at a ballroom party or Ballroom Tango at a Milonga.

According to me a general principle (in any social dance place) is that as long as you respect your partner (first of all don't hurt her) and the other dance couples on the floor (first of all don't hurt them and don't invade their dance space or be in their way) you can dance the way you want.
I also find it interesting to dance another dance than the usual one associated with the music, that is following the rules of the other dance while fitting the way of dancing to this music.
For example I can and sometimes prefer to dance some swing dance or salsa dance to argentine tango music (I have the level to fit this music with these dances systems).

But people in a place dedicated to a particular dance expect the persons to dance this particular dance, otherwise it can be seen as an intrusion, of course it is not the same in the case of an unknown couple (which enforce the idea of intrusion) and the case of a known couple which can also dance the dedicated dance well enough.

I think that AT dancers can be less accepting of Ballroom tango at a milonga (partly) because they may want to claim that Argentine Tango and Ballroom Tango are not the same (as they can be affected by the fact that the general public (non initiate) will mistaken AT with some caricatural Ballroom tango), or because they could be afraid of collision or being in the way (they can think that Ballroom tango is less manoeuvrable).

On the other way people in Ballroom are accustomed to the multi dances idea (they learn and dance many Ballroom dances) and ... I think dancing Argentine Tango at a ballroom party would be more accepted.

Hamez

01-29-2005, 10:10 AM

My vote went to AT. I also have a bit of personal experience with the question.

I have danced AT to other dances at the local ballroom club. I can find a corner somewhere, keep it small and not bother anyone. I never got any disapproving looks either.

On the other hand I've been at a moderatly busy milonga where some people decided to do swing. Ugg.. What a mess. It screwed up the LOD and every time you got near them you had to wonder if you were about to get hit. It was very disruptive. One of the neatest aspects of AT for me is the conneciton /w my parner and trying to deliver the tango trance. That is very difficult to do when your worried about her safty.

Additionaly, at a busy milonga your lucky to make it 100 feet down the line of dance in a song.. (thats less than 6" a second). I havn't seen any ballroom dances that actualy move LOD go that slow. You also have to be prepared to dance in place if the need arrises. I danced in one milonga where I got about 10 feet down LOD in a song. You just couldn't go any faster.

As unfair as it seems my view is:

You can dance AT anywhere
You cannot dance Non-AT at a milonga (except perhapse non tango tandas)

Sagitta

01-29-2005, 10:38 AM

One should be able to dance any non-progrerssive dance anywhere. I know that I can dance salsa in a pretty small space, though swing does seem to require a little more.

ColinP

01-29-2005, 01:56 PM

I'm not voting on this. Taking the question literally, I'd have to answer that I prefer Argentine tango.

But I feel it would be fairer to compare AT (with its companion dances milonga and tango vals) to all five Standard ballroom dances. I find the variety of tempo and dance styles available within AT seems similar to the variety in Standard that is given by the different dances.

And between AT and Standard, I'd hate to have to choose. I don't dance ballroom at present, but that's due to circumstances: we have a particularly vibrant local AT scene, but not much chance of finding a partner for ballroom.

....Colin.

Yliander

01-29-2005, 11:10 PM

bordertangoman

02-01-2005, 07:22 AM

my vote went to Argentine Tango - love the chemisty/fire of it and the connection between the partners. Also love the lines and movement of it.

like some of the bits of ballroom but over all I dislike the coldness and distance of it - looking in the opposite direction of my partner seem wrong for a partner dance

I think this is an exaggeration of a natural position where your heads are cheek to cheek. From what little I've seen of ballroom tango it has such an unnatural posture and seems to require a fixed smile.....

plugger

08-18-2010, 07:21 PM

If the ballroom couple were dancing their tango at a wedding party, class reunion or some other general social event where others were dancing Argentine, I doubt they tango couple would be resented, but a milonga would be different. Why would anyone show up at a milonga to dance ballroom tango? Showing off?

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, let's say they're curious about AT and after watching it for a while, they couldn't resist jumping in with the only kind of tango they knew. In that case, they probably would get stares simply because ballroom tango would be so unexpected in such a venue. The only reason I can think of for hard feelings would be that BT tango tends to travel a lot faster than AT and the odds of a collision would be increased.

tanya_the_dancer

08-18-2010, 10:59 PM

Of course I prefer ballroom tango! I love it! I'd hate to choose between international or american, though. Both are great.

opendoor

08-19-2010, 10:26 AM

I went to an Argentine Tango function, .. my partner and I danced the Ballroom style ...got the impression that I would be better off going somewhere else. My question: Is this normal? Am I a dancer trying to have fun surrounded by purists...

Sorry, Anonymous, that´s really not normal at all !! Sorry about that instead! More often it occurs, that traditionalists rile against neotango dancers and vice versa.

Here about it happens regularly that one or two ballroom couples appear at argentine tango parties, especially at candle-light openair events. But usually they do not fall into evidence. But I also know of a really annoying and missionary couple dancing competitive international tango regulary stirring up the LOD in a cosy little tango club with their erratic zick-zack maneuvers.

.

opendoor

08-19-2010, 11:16 AM

What is argentine tango, then?

I would not call the following TV choreo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4ejCPxlWJA) argentine tango !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4ejCPxlWJA

-It´s called Argentine Tango, but it is not Tango argentino !?
-Some characteristical movements are invorporated that stem from argentine show tangos!
-It has the common ballroom tango embrace.

Nevertheless it is called argentine tango, and a great number of ordinary dancers would exactly regard this kind of style as true argentine tango. By the way, I would call it (north)american show tango.

tanya_the_dancer

08-19-2010, 02:42 PM

Sorry, Anonymous, that´s really not normal at all !! Sorry about that instead! More often it occurs, that traditionalists rile against neotango dancers and vice versa.

Here about it happens regularly that one or two ballroom couples appear at argentine tango parties, especially at candle-light openair events. But usually they do not fall into evidence. But I also know of a really annoying and missionary couple dancing competitive international tango regulary stirring up the LOD in a cosy little tango club with their erratic zick-zack maneuvers.
.

Anonymous's post is kinda old. For myself, it's been about 9 years since my attempt at AT. And the events I was at weren't technically milongas. I think the organizers were trying to build up interest in AT, so they had AT group class followed by a social. For the social they played some other music too, so beginner folks like us could still dance *something*. That was very nice of them, because those AT groups were probably the only times when I was equally clueless before and after the class. If they played just tangos, I think my husband and I (back then we danced together) would have just danced what we knew, which was american style bronze tango.

ash_sk8s

08-20-2010, 01:02 AM

Ballroom tango please and thank you.

wiseman

08-20-2010, 09:38 AM

Peaches

08-20-2010, 09:56 AM

Will heartily disagree. Take lessons in it before ballroom habits become too ingrained. I'd wager is just as hard/easy as other BR dances...just perhaps in different ways.

tanya_the_dancer

08-20-2010, 01:26 PM

My studio offers group classes on Argentine Tango twice a week, but none on Ballroom tango. When researching other studios in NYC, a number of other studios are the same way. Never really knew why. I guess it's like Salsa On1 vs. Salsa On2. In each area, one type of tango is more popular than the other? That's my guess.

I'd definitely love to learn tango someday. It's such an elegant dance. But from what I heard, it's very difficult. So they say it's best to wait a while before taking lessons on it.....meaning, tango shouldn't be the very first dance to take lessons on.

Argentine tango and ballroom tango are completely different dances. Even the hold is different. If you see people who dance with the lady kinda leaning forward and at times looking almost as if she is hanging on the guy's neck, chances are, those people are doing AT.

ireniecat

08-21-2010, 12:11 AM

Ballroom tango for me. Even when I am not dancing myself, in general I enjoy watching ballroom tango more than argentine. My grandfather loves tango and sometimes tells me historical bits about Argentina and dancing with great enthusiasm... I just don't have the heart to tell him that's not the same kind of tango that I dance :)

opendoor

08-21-2010, 08:22 AM

...Argentine tango and ballroom tango are completely different dances. Even the hold is different..

I would say, only the hold is different.

Hold and leading principle are the main differences. Concerning the rest: the differences within the argentine substyles are much greater than the differences between argentine and ballroom overall.

opendoor

08-21-2010, 08:27 AM

.. guess it's like Salsa On1 vs. Salsa On2. In each area, one type of tango is more popular than the other..

hi wm, would not subscribe this: as a salsa dancer, you should be able to switch between on1 and on2 depending on the music played. As a tango dancer I can switch between Salón style and Neo style (argentine) tango, depending on the music, too. But ballroom and argentine tango have a different leading principle.

cheers

tanya_the_dancer

08-21-2010, 11:09 AM

I would say, only the hold is different.

Hold and leading principle are the main differences. Concerning the rest: the differences within the argentine substyles are much greater than the differences between argentine and ballroom overall.

AT also appears fairly stationary. Ballroom tango travels around the floor.

Peaches

08-21-2010, 11:42 AM

AT also appears fairly stationary. Ballroom tango travels around the floor.
Actually, AT only appears fairly stationary in comparison to the amount that ballroom tango travels. AT is, very much, a traveling dance. Granted, it's also extremely easy to turn it into a spot dance--because sometimes there are hold-ups on the floor.

This gets to something an earlier poster had said--about how AT dancers get irked when people show up and dance BR tango at a milonga. It's not so much the fact of dancing something different. (OK, there are some people for whom this is the issue, but a lot of people aren't quite that prissy.) It's the fact that the two dances travel very, very differently. BR moves bigger, faster, passing is OK, and just the hold itself takes up a lot of space in comparison. Unless the venue is huge and the floor very uncrowded (which does happen, and in which case this is a moot point), a couple dancing BR tango at a milonga is, quite frankly, a floor hazard. And, owing to the different etiquette, they end up seeming like a very rude floor hazard.

I'm not too sure about how AT dancers at a BR social would be perceived, cuz that's just not my scene. I will say that AT dancers will move around the floor at roughly the same pace as any other beginning BR dancer. You know, before people learn to really move? Or, it can be danced as a spot dance. It would be perfectly easy to dance AT to a cha, or hustle, or...well, most BR dance genres. OK, salsa would be tricky. Would an AT couple dancing in one spot while people around them dance cha or samba be a hazard the way BR tango done at a milonga would be a hazard? I don't know. It wouldn't seem so...if for no other reason than we still would be taking up less space...what with the lack of arm-styling and whatnot.

*shrug*

Peaches

08-21-2010, 11:44 AM

I would say, only the hold is different.

Hold and leading principle are the main differences. Concerning the rest: the differences within the argentine substyles are much greater than the differences between argentine and ballroom overall.
Sorry. I completely and utterly disagree. I don't want to get into it here, cuz it's more of an AT discussion, but for the sake of other people out there reading...it's a point up for debate.

Subliminal

08-21-2010, 12:11 PM

AT also appears fairly stationary. Ballroom tango travels around the floor.

Wellll... AT is still a progressive dance. You do go around LOD. If you are dancing a more modern style and the floor allows it you can really move. But traditional social AT was designed to be danced in very small spaces. So yeah, it can appear to creep along the floor at a slow rate if the floor is crowded or the people are dancing very old-school.

I guess this could be one problem with AT and BR dancers sharing the floor. As a leader, I like when the people around me are moving in a predictable manner. If someone is dancing in a different style, it can be harder to guess where they are moving next. It can mess with the flow of the floor.

I personally wouldn't have a problem sharing the floor with a BR dancer if they could keep it small and tight.

Subliminal

08-21-2010, 12:13 PM

Heh, I went to go eat breakfast in mid-post, and apparently you beat me to the punch Peach. :D Well, a little redundancy never hurt, I'll leave my post up.

fascination

08-21-2010, 12:46 PM

all tango is all good..not so, all tango music

Subliminal

08-21-2010, 05:01 PM

Steve Pastor

08-21-2010, 05:22 PM

I'm not too sure about how AT dancers at a BR social would be perceived, cuz that's just not my scene.

If they are dancing "close embrace", I'm sure they would be "an item". At least that was the perception at a coutnry western place. Maybe ballroom would be different?

waltzgirl

08-21-2010, 05:48 PM

If they are dancing "close embrace", I'm sure they would be "an item". At least that was the perception at a coutnry western place. Maybe ballroom would be different?

Yep, different at a ballroom venue. My studio usually plays 1-2 Argentine tangos during the ballroom social, no assumptions about the couples who dance it.

Usually, a few couples do ballroom tango to the AT music, as well. No floorcraft issues, as it's a big floor and not that many people dance when AT music is on anyway.

Peaches

08-21-2010, 05:50 PM

waltzgirl

08-21-2010, 06:05 PM

Peaches

08-21-2010, 06:10 PM

Like I said, it's not my scene, so I don't really know. I'm just thinking back to various complaints here around D-F over the years about people not dancing what they were supposed to be.

Zoopsia59

08-21-2010, 06:33 PM

True dat!

btw any of you smooth or standard dancers tried dancing BR to any of the traditional melodic tango music? Di Sarli, Pugliese, etc. It seems from my limited experience the BR tango music tends toward the march, march, march side, but I don't see why you couldn't make it more smooth and flowing.

I think the ballroom'ers might have an easier time dancing Fox Trot to the more traditional AT music like D'Arienzo than they would dancing ballroom tango.

The fox trot rhythm (S,S,Q,Q) fits better than the (S,S,Q,Q,S) doesn't it? My partner is able to do the opposite - ie: make AT fit ballroom tango rhythm, but he's the only leader I know who can (granted, he's the only AT leader I know who's done much ballroom) I don't think I've ever seen anyone successfully make ballroom tango rhythm work in AT.

Zoopsia59

08-21-2010, 06:40 PM

I was actually thinking of/wondering about the perception of AT dancers who dance AT to non-AT music (samba, cha, rumba, etc.) at a ballroom social. Yeah, we can take the same/less amount of space than the couples doing the "correct" dance...but BR people seem to take exception to dancers not all dancing the same "correct" dance to the music. *shrug*

My partner and I have never had a problem, or at least, we were not made aware that it was a problem. We dance Tango to Fox Trot, Milonga to Meringue, and Vals to Viennese Waltz. Yes, people have looked at us funny when we do CE tango to a fox trot because they may not have ever seen a milonguero style embrace. But he makes it move with the rest of the dancers on the floor, so its only creates a hazard if there's rubbernecking at us. The problem is when it's a crowded floor for meringue and traveling is unfair to others. Sometimes there's loads of room to get around people without disturbing them, and sometimes we just stick with meringue or milonga with much traspie in place.

Peaches

08-21-2010, 06:43 PM

My partner and I have never had a problem, or at least, we were not made aware that it was a problem. We dance Tango to Fox Trot, Milonga to Meringue, and Vals to Viennese Waltz. Yes, people have looked at us funny when we do CE tango to a fox trot because they may not have ever seen a milonguero style embrace. But he makes it move with the rest of the dancers on the floor, so its only creates a hazard if there's rubbernecking at us. The problem is when it's a crowded floor for meringue and traveling is unfair to others. Sometimes there's loads of room to get around people without disturbing them, and sometimes we just stick with meringue or milonga with much traspie in place.Or you could just turn the milonga into a spot dance, or close to a spot dance, with lots of circular movements. Somewhere there's a video of...er, some two dancers...dancing AT inside a very small circle of chairs.

Zoopsia59

08-21-2010, 07:19 PM

there's a video of...er, some two dancers...

Namedropper. :p

tanya_the_dancer

08-22-2010, 12:41 AM

I was actually thinking of/wondering about the perception of AT dancers who dance AT to non-AT music (samba, cha, rumba, etc.) at a ballroom social. Yeah, we can take the same/less amount of space than the couples doing the "correct" dance...but BR people seem to take exception to dancers not all dancing the same "correct" dance to the music. *shrug*

It depends. If an AT couple tries to dance a fairly stationary AT to music which goes with a dance which travels (i.e. waltz or foxtrot), I can see that being an issue.

Also, as a ballroom person I would rather do a dance which goes with the music (waltz with waltz music, rumba with rumba music etc.). We have this local guy who is into AT, but still knows some ballroom. He and his partner used to come to the ballroom socials sometimes. Since people mix and mingle here, he would ask other ladies and he would dance ballroom dances he could do (i.e. rumba). At one point however, he lost his AT partner (she moved), and he was searching for a new one. During that time he would try to AT with us ballroom ladies to EVERYTHING. Having been on receiving end of this for a few dances, I can tell you it did not feel that great.

Joe

08-22-2010, 10:01 AM

I was actually thinking of/wondering about the perception of AT dancers who dance AT to non-AT music (samba, cha, rumba, etc.) at a ballroom social.
Prolly the same things they think of Westies who are doing the same thing. :)

sambanada

08-22-2010, 11:11 AM

I prefer Ballroom because it is natural for me, so I feel and not think. I dont know Argentine tango well, so for me, it is all thinking. I prefer to feel.

to be or not to be

08-22-2010, 01:41 PM

I haven't read all the posts but why compare ballroom to argentine tango? they are so different and both have things people love about them and things people don't. as a person who currently doesn't do either(though did do At).I love watching both, but after dancing too much At, I can not listen to the music that At goes to at all! guess I'd pick ballroom

GoldStar

08-22-2010, 02:09 PM

Zhena

08-22-2010, 02:20 PM

I dance the balroom tango.

I watched many times Argentine tango. It's very nice if you do that right..
but if you will watch Mirko Gozzoli & Alessia Betti Tango show from 2006 and then you will watch some argentine tango show I guess you will prefer the ballroom one as I do.

Ummm ... no. Your choice is not universal.

YOU prefer the look of ballroom tango to the look of performance AT. Others prefer the look of performance AT.

Still others base their preference on the FEEL of the dance, rather than how it looks to an audience. Again, there are people who prefer the feel of ballroom tango (whether International or American) and others who prefer one of the many variations of Argentine tango.

These differences are part of what makes the world of dance interesting ....

Zhena

08-22-2010, 02:29 PM

By the way, I didn't vote.

I've learned some ballroom tango. It's usually enjoyable, but I usually enjoy dancing almost anything. I do it because it's part of the standard mix.

My knowledge of AT comes mainly from DF. I'm both attracted and repelled by the information provided here.

The videos tend to bore me. I like some of the things people say about the connection and the use of simple elements. BUT ... I'm intimidated by the intensity of the feelings about the RIGHT way to do this or that. If I ever start to learn AT, it will be with great care and alertness to make sure I don't make a faux pas.

to be or not to be

08-23-2010, 12:30 PM

My knowledge of AT comes mainly from DF. I'm both attracted and repelled by the information provided here.

The videos tend to bore me. I like some of the things people say about the connection and the use of simple elements. BUT ... I'm intimidated by the intensity of the feelings about the RIGHT way to do this or that. If I ever start to learn AT, it will be with great care and alertness to make sure I don't make a faux pas.

having had some exposure to At I can say that most groups of tango fanatics are warm and helpful while there are some clicks that look down on the people with a ballroom back round and even their fellow dancers however they are fortunately in the minority

Ray Sison

08-23-2010, 06:57 PM

Still others base their preference on the FEEL of the dance, rather than how it looks to an audience. Again, there are people who prefer the feel of ballroom tango (whether International or American) and others who prefer one of the many variations of Argentine tango.

These differences are part of what makes the world of dance interesting ....

Very well said...

spectator

09-04-2010, 08:35 AM

surprised no one has really pointed out that the music is so different that the ballroom and argentine tango are not interchangeable. Certainly at a milonga if I saw someone doing ballroom tango they would have to be very talented and skilled to make it appropriate, or fit the music. Could you do ballroom tango to something by D'Arienzo? It's like when you see people trying to do at to cumbia music. just do cumbia, it's easier than trying to make at work.

spectator

09-04-2010, 08:37 AM

oops just found some posts on music! sorry!

by the way everybody it's been driving me mad for 3 years. It's not "click" it's CLIQUE.

v22TTC

09-04-2010, 12:42 PM

Spectator: Only clickey people say 'clique'.:p

Voted for Argentine, since it's the only dance that I've ever found that absolutely fits me like a glove - top to bottom (and I rarely find anything that I love and fit into so unreservedly... I'm a picky and awkward ol' swine...).

No disrespect to Ballroom or any other dance though - I just don't feel them at the moment: one day, hopefully, I will....

Lioness

09-05-2010, 12:29 AM

I've never danced AT, but I love how it looks. Still, I really really love the look of ballroom tango, and also how it feels.

Angel HI

09-05-2010, 02:07 AM

surprised no one has really pointed out that the music is so different that the ballroom and argentine tango are not interchangeable. Certainly at a milonga if I saw someone doing ballroom tango they would have to be very talented and skilled to make it appropriate, or fit the music. Pas vrai, though your point is quite correct that the music is the primary difference, perhaps I and several others are in the gracious minority of whom you spoke because we have done it many times... mostly to prove a point to BR dancers at socials, etc. ;)

madmaximus

09-05-2010, 03:29 AM

IMO

I think comparing dance forms does not make sense--particularly when it involves derivative forms.

Myopic old guard, vociferous neo-classicists, and snobbish avant-garde hordes respectfully aside, this opinion is distilled from a particular view of partner dance as a concept beyond the confines of each and every style--including Tango.

To me, any argument about a style (BR, Latin, NC etc) about how the old is better than the new or vice-versa or more pertinently that BR, Argentine, American, Chinese, or Filipino Tangos are better AND every possible shade betwixt is merely a reflection of our the inability to comprehend dance styles and movement at a larger and broader context, albeit in its elemental or fundamental construct.

Study enough dance forms, and one day you'll be able to dance a Waltz using Foxtrot forms, incorporate Tango forms into VW, and make Rumba more expressive using a QS move.

Style, any particular one (BR, Latin, Tango, NC, etc.), becomes irrelevant, its movement subverted to the wishes of its master and applied almost whimsically.

The point is mastering each form so that you can deconstruct a move into its fundamental level and incorporate that move into another form, and lift that new form into a different piece of music (and blend it so it can express the character of that music).

At such a point the relevance and strict specificity of a form to a particular style diminishes into a malleable set of movements that can be wielded by a master to create expression in any dance.

So that the concerns around the dance will no longer be the suitability of a style to the music at hand or a host of others (like: a) how you will navigate the floor, b) how you will interact with your partner, c) how you will use the music, or d) what the technique should be).

Instead, the focus becomes expressing what you feel--in unison with your partner--using any movement you choose which, at the end of the day, is the "why" of dancing.

m

While I comment mainly on Standard--which lends itself to the geometric side of my nature, I have studied Latin, AT, NC, and other forms just as long to serve my artistic inclinations.

plugger

09-05-2010, 03:52 AM

It would be a challenge to dance ballroom tango on a floor populated mostly by Argentine tango dancers, if only because the frequent pauses in place that are an essential part of AT don't mix well with the relentless forward drive of ballroom tango. If the room isn't crowded and the lead has excellent floorcraft, collisions might be avoided, but a ballroom couple would probably attract stares, simply because it's incongruous with the setting (and AT dancers tend to eye newcomers closely anyway).
It might also bring some frowns, because dancing ballroom tango at a milonga really ought not be encouraged. If they learn that you're a very nice person and this is the only tango you know, they'll probably be kind about it, but they still might worry that you'll invite your ballroom friends to come along next time.

tanya_the_dancer

09-05-2010, 12:38 PM

I remember reading somewhere on these forums that AT couples don't get too close to one another. I.e. in ballroom couples can pass one another within inches, and as long as they didn't collide, it's OK and nobody minds, and in AT world that would be bad.

madmaximus

09-05-2010, 01:38 PM

IMO. It is patently fallacious to say that you cannot dance BR Tango on an AT floor (and vice-versa for that matter).

I've danced AT on a BR floor and BR on an AT floor--the issue is not a mechanical or technical one, but one of bias/prejudice and tolerance within the social community of the dance (BE THAT AT OR BR).

First let's address the fallacies of BR Technique. Here's 3 :

BR Tango can and does pause and stop (albeit some of this may be characterized as florid displays by the AT community). As in any partner dance this is dependent upon the lead, whether such pauses are taken or not.
BR Tango can go backwards (albeit this is seldom used)
BR Tango can go against line of dance (again seldom used)

Now the Social aspect.

One should always respect the social and conventional norms of a community--more pertinently, a dance community.
Whenever possible, I think it is the height of disrespect to dance a certain style in a community that is not tolerant of the style and sees it as an affront to the aesthetic, historic, and stylistic sensibilities.(And there are times that you just cannot avoid this--like having to dance with someone who only knows one particular style and not the other--in which discretion, floorcraft-speaking, become the better part of valour).
Likewise, a community should also respect the rights of the individual, especially an outsider. It is the apex of discourtesy to make a dancer of a different style feel disrespected, outcast and unwanted--in any scenario.

As I've said, I've danced BR on AT floors and AT on BR floors many, many times (mostly because the situation warranted it--ladies I was dancing with did not know the appropriate style).

But most often, I dance to the specific style required on the floor.

Can you guess which style I got the most stares with, when dancing a different style?

m

opendoor

09-05-2010, 03:35 PM

.. AT couples don't get too close to one another.

.. if I could only show you all the scars and cicatrices on my legs... If it is crowded (and strange enough, it is always crowded), you have to dance with contact to either side...

tanya_the_dancer

09-05-2010, 04:42 PM

.. if I could only show you all the scars and cicatrices on my legs... If it is crowded (and strange enough, it is always crowded), you have to dance with contact to either side...

I'm not that great with the search engine here, but I definitely remember the thread where someone with AT background commented how he was watching ballroom people dance and one couple just went by another couple within mere inches, and how in AT world that would be disrespectful to their personal space. Maybe I'll luck out and find that thread without too much trouble.

spectator

09-05-2010, 04:56 PM

in buenos aires the floors are so packed at busy times that you are an inch from the next couple on all 4 sides if you are in the middle lane. That is a fact. Over taking is not tolerated. everybody accepts that they will be very physically close to other couples.

v22TTC

09-05-2010, 05:41 PM

Tanya The Dancer: Might it have been the combination of speed/energy and proximity that the poster was objecting to/mentioning?

tanya_the_dancer

09-05-2010, 08:45 PM

Tanya The Dancer: Might it have been the combination of speed/energy and proximity that the poster was objecting to/mentioning?

Maybe. Or maybe it was about overtaking and passing too close at the same time (since in ballroom, it's perfectly fine to overtake another couple, as long as you don't collide). Like I said I am not that great with the search engine, so I couldn't find that thread (and it doesn't help that having tango as one of the key words results in a gazillion of results).

dlgodud

09-07-2010, 08:07 PM

Definitely Ballroom Tango for me.

Angel HI

09-08-2010, 07:43 PM

Study enough dance forms, and one day you'll be able to dance a Waltz using Foxtrot forms, incorporate Tango forms into VW, and make Rumba more expressive using a QS move.

Style, any particular one (BR, Latin, Tango, NC, etc.), becomes irrelevant, its movement subverted to the wishes of its master and applied almost whimsically.

The point is mastering each form so that you can deconstruct a move into its fundamental level and incorporate that move into another form, and lift that new form into a different piece of music (and blend it so it can express the character of that music).

At such a point the relevance and strict specificity of a form to a particular style diminishes into a malleable set of movements that can be wielded by a master to create expression in any dance.

Instead, the focus becomes expressing what you feel--in unison with your partner--using any movement you choose which, at the end of the day, is the "why" of dancing.:notworth: Absolutely LOVE this.

opendoor

04-29-2011, 07:23 AM

...really felt awkward with the head position to the side, and leaning backward. Do people usually feel that 'pain in the neck' and awkwardness at the beginning? And how long does it take for that feeling to go away?

Hi Legacy, first, I really dont mean to poach on different hunting grounds, b.c. we all here benefit from the fact that different styles are in contact and in discussion... but, I know several cases in which this awkward feeling will not vanish. And only in that case you should concider to change the style: The argentine dance position is laid out to provide a maximum of a comfortable feeling. Speaking fankly, there are also dancers, that dont get along with the argentine hold. So try to find out what suits you.

Please have a look

http://www.tango-tango.de/images/bildergalerie/ball_10/gockisch/people/tango_wuppertal_13.jpg

or

http://www.tango-tango.de/images/bildergalerie/ball_10/goergens/tango_argentino_wuppertal%20(20).jpg

or

http://www.tango-tango.de/images/bildergalerie/ball_10/goergens/tango_argentino_wuppertal%20(56).jpg

Legacy

04-29-2011, 09:06 AM

Hi Legacy, first, I really dont mean to poach on different hunting grounds, b.c. we all here benefit from the fact that different styles are in contact and in discussion... but, I know several cases in which this awkward feeling will not vanish. The argentine dance position is laid out to provide a maximum of a comfortable feeling. Speaking fankly, there are also dancers, that dont get along with the argentine hold. So try to find out what suits you
Oh dear.. I hope I won't be one of those :P I've looked at argentine dance, but I guess it's more like a social dance to me (which of course gives you more enjoyment, but less to learn?) Maybe I'm wrong. Argentine also seems to be too intimate for me for now :P

opendoor

04-29-2011, 09:23 AM

Hi Legacy, only this: in AT you also can find everything between social and performance. And the syllabus is open, which means, you will never reach the end of the flagpole. And I think it is less intimate because you do not contact directly with hip and groin parts. Good luck, so far!

Legacy

04-29-2011, 09:36 AM

And I think it is less intimate because you do not contact directly with hip and groin parts. Good luck, so far!

Very good point Opendoor! How about other parts like upper body and chest? :)

danceronice

04-29-2011, 10:42 AM

But you can't compete in ballroom events in AT, so if you want to do those...

I've never really gotten the full Standard "look" without feeling ridiculous and very awkward to painful, but I'm fighting 20-odd years of sports that require very vertical alignment (taking the head out is just not 'right' to me.) So muscle memory's against me. A couple things that make it better are having a partner who's the right height and build to minimize awkwardness--if my hips aren't lined up right the upper body's not going to work at all. And not thinking of tilting the head straight left but kind of stretching around.

And you can always try Smooth--you spend a lot less time in hold! ;)

3wishes

04-29-2011, 11:19 AM

"But you can't compete in ballroom events in AT, so if you want to do those..."
HUH? I know of several ballroom competitions that offer AT
including Emerald. Do I not understand you Danceronice?

3wishes

04-29-2011, 11:20 AM

Sorry, didn't mean to steal the thread - I just want to understand.

opendoor

04-29-2011, 11:40 AM

Sorry, didn't mean to steal the thread

Do not mean to steal either, but actually competitions seem to be not a core business in AT, though they may exist. But, meanwhile also a tango world cup has been established in BsAs.

http://www.demotix.com/news/419490/tango-world-championship-argentina
demotix.com/news/419490/tango-world-championship-argentina

tanya_the_dancer

04-29-2011, 02:02 PM

"But you can't compete in ballroom events in AT, so if you want to do those..."
HUH? I know of several ballroom competitions that offer AT
including Emerald. Do I not understand you Danceronice?

Do you mean those few AT heats on smooth days at ballroom comps? They usually have one or two couples in them, and imv the purpose of those heats is to sit down and relax or go in the corner and warm up, depending on what's going on in your schedule. I don't know anyone who takes those seriously.

danceronice

04-29-2011, 02:33 PM

Do you mean those few AT heats on smooth days at ballroom comps? They usually have one or two couples in them, and imv the purpose of those heats is to sit down and relax or go in the corner and warm up, depending on what's going on in your schedule. I don't know anyone who takes those seriously.

Least of all serious AT people.

But I don't think the immediate answer to the question is "quit ballroom completely and take up an entirely different CULTURE of dance." Though it might be consider Smooth, Rhythm and Latin as alternatives. Some of us will just never be comfortable in Standard, physically or otherwise.

Terpsichorean Clod

04-29-2011, 04:49 PM

Hi Legacy, only this: in AT you also can find everything between social and performance.
True for ballroom
And the syllabus is open, which means, you will never reach the end of the flagpole.
True for ballroom
And I think it is less intimate because you do not contact directly with hip and groin parts.
Debatable, but generally true for ballroom :)

Steve Pastor

04-29-2011, 07:19 PM

How about other parts like upper body and chest?

Contemporary Argentine Tango has many styles.
Some have contact in the upper body/chest, some don't.
There are also many ways to "embrace" your partner (an AT buzz word more or less equivalent to "hold" or "frame").

nucat78

04-30-2011, 08:41 AM

No option for voting, but I'm split about 50-50. As far as the music being radically different, DP and I do occasionally dance AT to what some would consider a BR tango. Seems to work ok for us.

pygmalion

04-30-2011, 09:55 AM

The voting buttons are still there for me, but I'm not going to vote because there''s no option for "no preference." I think that, even though the two dances have common roots, they've evolved along different lines for so long now that they are no longer comparable. Each is beautiful in its own way.

nucat78

04-30-2011, 09:56 AM

Sorry, I meant there is no option for "no prefence". My bad.

pygmalion

04-30-2011, 09:58 AM

Sorry. I misunderstood. :cool:

bia

05-01-2011, 10:27 AM

I agree with pygmalion as far as the extreme difference between the dances. For myself, I prefer AT music, and I love the improvisation that I see among good AT dancers. So if all I could dance were some version of tango, I would choose AT. But as cool as AT is, I like dancing foxtrot, quickstep, and waltz more. So I'm focusing on standard, and that means I have to learn and compete ballroom tango. Someday I'd like to really learn AT, too, but the huge difference in technique from what I'm used to means that doing that would take a lot of time and energy away from my work on other dances, and I'm not willing to make that trade-off right now. So I'm not voting either. In a head-to-head comparison, I prefer AT, but in the reality of my dancing life, I'm choosing to work on ballroom tango.

tangotime

05-01-2011, 11:15 AM

Terpsichorean Clod

05-01-2011, 11:31 AM

bia

05-01-2011, 01:10 PM

Waltz, foxtrot, and quickstep can have the same improvisation.
True -- I love madmax's post #89 in this thread to sort of that effect. But it's my impression that in common teaching and practice, such improvisation is emphasized more commonly and earlier in AT than in ballroom. Not necessarily how it has to be, but how it seems to be at the moment.
I don't think you necessarily have to compete. :smile:
Also true, but if I do choose to compete standard, I have to include standard tango -- can't just choose to individually replace it with Argentine or to skip tango altogether.

As I looked back through this thread, I was realizing how many different things are tied up in our choices of which dances to do. Obviously, a preference for a particular dance or a particular kind of music plays a big role. But it's also about which dances conventionally are done together, whether competitively or in a social venue. How much variety in different dances you're likely to get at a particular event, and whether you enjoy a lot of variety, or whether you're happy playing with the details of one dance all night. What the social conventions are for each particular dance community (including interactions between dancers, but also how early or late events start and end, how loud the music is, whether there's drinking, etc.), and how comfortable those conventions are for you. So there are interesting discussions to be had about personal preferences for particular dances, but in actual practice, the choices are about more than just preferring one dance over another.

Subliminal

05-01-2011, 03:54 PM

Waltz, foxtrot, and quickstep can have the same improvisation.

I don't think you necessarily have to compete. :)

I am kind of curious, cause I never got that far in ballroom... is there a certain point where you can step on any beat you want or dance the melody line? Not talking about choreography or routines. I heard that Foxtrot used to be that way a loooong time ago, but I was wondering if it's still taught that way in ballroom social dancing today.

madmaximus

05-01-2011, 04:22 PM

... is there a certain point where you can step on any beat you want or dance the melody line? Not talking about choreography or routines. Yes. For any dance that has a well-defined style, technique, and expression.
Of course, to point out the obvious,
there's improvisation (unabashed gesticulation, in all its misinformed, uneducated, and ill-suited glory),
and there's improvisation (see post 99 : http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=821393&postcount=99)

I heard that Foxtrot used to be that way a loooong time ago, but I was wondering if it's still taught that way in ballroom social dancing today.

Oh, that old rhubarb that ballroom is stiff and rigid--and not subject to improvisation--stems from not really understanding the reason for the figures (and the elements thereof).

One of the bad bad boys in all that is the underlying business method in teaching it---perpetuated by the zealous acolytes of the stodgily pedantic (but that's a different thread---viva la revolucion!).

But I digress.

The irony of it all (and I guess my point and answer to your question) is, in the hands of the right TECHNICAL teacher, you can learn improvisation early--in this instance, ballroom, but certainly true for ANY dance (true, at least in my experience with my mentors).

IMO, the more TECHNICALLY ADEPT the teacher is, the better the understanding of how to improvise---which can only translate to their students' picking-up the ability.

m

Subliminal

05-01-2011, 04:29 PM

madmaximus

05-01-2011, 05:11 PM

You talk about forms, but I guess my real questions are, does it get distilled down to every step of the foot? And if so, at what point does that get taught? And if it does get taught, how common is it in social dancing to see a couple dancing that way?

Not trying to be adversarial, I am really curious. I have been thinking about taking up BR again at some point, and it would be nice to know what kinds of questions I should ask a potential teacher.

With mastery comes acquiring wider vocabulary of the subject.
So let's agree on a couple of terms:

Form--(for a specific style as opposed to the more generalized "Dance Forms" I mentioned in an earlier post)---refers to one's external appearance; if you will, a snapshot of how a DANCE STYLE should be structured physically.
This includes details about posture, poise, alignments (relative placement of limbs & body, you and your partner's relative positions to each other, and your relative alignments to the room).
There's physical form, and there's visual (or apparent form, ie, the illusion you create--such as the actual vs. apparent distance between a couple's heads).

Technical Movement---is a series of forms that are set into motion.
This includes leg, knee, ankle, and toe articulations, as well as dynamic changes in the body (to accommodate the illusion, or visual form).

[I]At what point this is taught in traditional ballroom?

Components of the above are taught in varying degrees, by varying teachers.
Some more (or less) than others---some are not taught these matters unless required by the student (particularly those more interested in quality movement).

My own training was unique in that I asked my early mentors to teach me the technical aspects much earlier (when I was just starting--pre-bronze, I suppose).
So we started with how to achieve balance, how to move forwards and back, how to rotate,
and relegated the study of the figures themselves to be incidental to movement, rather than the other way around.
Most dancers (particularly purely social-oriented ones) probably don't start to look at these details until they are beyond Intermediate.

What questions to ask the teacher?

Questions about movement, rather than figures would be a good starting point.
How is the body propelled through space (ie the dance floor).
What are the different technical ways to step forwards, backwards, sidewards? (There are several)
What are the different techniques for lowering? (again there are several).
What are the technical differences among forward locks in foxtrot, quickstep, chacha, rumba?
These are matters of minutiae, to be sure, but they are important if one is to understand how to improvise properly.
The old barb about knowing the rules so you can break them---advisedly, of course.

I suppose it starts with understanding that if one is focused on figures, then all you're learning is a template---there is no creativity.

True dancing (in this particular: ballroom/latin) is like learning a language.
If you just study a phrase book of standard figures, then all you can do is be a parrot and simply repeat a template.
This is the unfortunate, but usual approach by studios (depending on their syllabi).
This is also why the misconception of rigidity exists.

If, however, you study a language's components, structure, and vocabulary, then you can create sentences on your own.
(And there are quality teachers out there who promote this style of learning too).

Once you've mastered those, then you can learn to express yourself fully.

That's when you start creating poetry.

m