Sex at the Milongas

[pygmalion]

Okay, guys, clue me in. While browsing the web yesterday, I found an interesting article in which the author gives a long list of do's and don'ts -- basically sexual etiquette at the milongas. It only stands to reason, she says, that, given the passionate nature of the dance, the crush of bodies and anonymity of the milongas, all sorts of sexually explicit behavior will be ignited. So she gives some suggestions on how to handle it.

http://www.susanamiller.com.ar/editorialing.htm (scroll down to Good Treatment and Mistreat at the Milonga to see the article)

Question: Is this real? Are milongas really the hotbed of steamy sexuality depicted in this article? And what do you do if you just want to dance?

[Swing Kitten]

I know nothing of the Milongas.

I read the column and by the way she wrote the first part of that article (the bit about women being the solitary neurotic) makes it difficult for me to put much weight in her opinions.

[pygmalion]

Another interesting link regarding the genesis of tango -- in the brothels of Argentina. (Relevant to MadamSamba's question in another thread -- men danced together because "decent" women wanted nothing to do with such a scandalous dance and its attendant culture.)
So tango, at least historically, did have some strong associations with sex. Will google for more. :wink: :lol:
http://totango.net/sergio.html

[pygmalion]

Ha! TOLD you I'd google.

Take a look at this conversation about sexy tango dancers. Sex and tango is definitely an issue. So the question still stands. What do you do if you just want to dance? And what IS the proper sexual etiquette at a milonga? And is a practica different?

(LOL. I'll have mercy on you and not post the thread about dancing tango in the nude! What a hoot! Apparently, not such a great idea. Something about the logistics of bodies sticking together. :lol: :lol: )


http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg00390.html

[bordertangoman]

I read Susan Miller's article and thought it was very Cosmopolitan; setting out some rather naive rules of conduct.

I prefer the Tango Lesson approach where Pablo Veron says that they (he and Sally Potter) must sublimate their passion into the dance.

There are women who I find very sultry to dance with, but I just enjoy it when it happens I don't try and turn it into something else. If it lasts for a tanda then its enough and I may wait three months or more before I see her again to dance with.

Then there's sweet shop syndrome: its sometimes better to be outside looking in the window and imagining what you can buy with your pennies/dimes/pesos than to make a choice and forego all the other delights that might have been.

[pygmalion]

:D I like the way you think, bordertangoman. I haven't done much AT, but even with ballroom tango, there's a lot to be said for sublimating the sexy/sultry. It can look and feel great, as long as you don't mistake dancing passionately for feeling love or passion for the specific dance partner of the moment.

Just curious. Why do you say her rules of conduct are naive?

[pygmalion]

Come to think of it, the best tango I've ever done was a routine with a (long ago) former coach, when I was absolutely furious with him. I'm pretty mild-mannered most of the time, but when I get mad, look out! And I had a tiff with this teacher a day before our big medal ball/dance exhibition. I was so mad! And it all showed in my tango attitude. You wouldn't believe the compliments I got. It wasn't sexual (he's gay! :shock: :lol: ) but there was a lot of passion involved in that particular tango. 8)

[Shamby]

I have only done a little bit of Argentine Tango but it is a sexy dance pygmalion. I like the sound of nude tango though but I can see how bodies sticking together would be a problem but not as much as the would with an oversway in a waltz. Ha ha!

[MadamSamba]

Jenn, you should definitely start that post on nude tango. It would be intriguing, especially if anyone had actually partaken in such an activity! :)

Oh, hang on, I just remembered I'm the moderator. Forget that idea.

Pssst: Maybe you could post a nude ballroom dancing thread in your forum? :) :)

[tsb]

Are milongas really the hotbed of steamy sexuality depicted in this article?

not that i've found. i don't know why i keep going back!

but seriously, i know nothing of buenos aires culture. maybe these rules work there and only there.

the best tango I've ever done was a routine with a (long ago) former coach, when I was absolutely furious with him.

i've heard that an effective way of putting you & your partner into the right frame of mind for tango is to pretend there's a strong mutual physical atraction between the two of you - but you've just had a rip-roarin' fight and you are so mad at each other it's taking all your strength just to remain barely civil. it works - but only when you and your partner can keep from laughing!


Maybe you could post a nude ballroom dancing thread in your forum?


but nothing bouncy - and definitely no aerials!

[Genesius Redux]

Wow! There are some great things in this thread.

IMO, Jay Rabe's account of "sexy tango dancers" comes closest to defining an ideological "feel" of the dance. The tango allows both partners to push against the defining limits of gender identity--when "male" and "female" roles are explored, it's with a sense of drama that is almost presentational in nature. Both committed and abstract.

I didn't buy Susana Miller's articles as much, mostly because they seemed to be a little wide of the mark in addressing ideology. Swing Kitten was absolutely right, I think, in being skeptical about the account of women's identity post-Rosie the Riveter. And ideology is not self-conscious; quite to the contrary, by its very nature, ideology is unselfconscious, touching on those values we hold fast to without realizing it.

It would seem to me that with its drama and explicit sexual representation tango is profoundly anti-ideological. Its function is to remove sexuality from the realm of the unconscious and raise it to the level of art, of an aesthetic, to lay it all out for the audience.

That's not to say that tango can't touch on actual feelings and passions--but that those feelings and passions are so directly engaged as to make their exploration almost playful. A couple of years ago, when I was dancing at another studio, one of the instructors was telling me privately about her own powers of arousing her partner in a real tango--and she made her point by telling me a story of dancing with another instructor, who was gay, but who after dancing with her found himself embarrassingly aroused. To me, this sounded much like a line in the sand, and my immediate response was that I was certainly captain of my own ship, and that I didn't think it would be the same with me. We've never put this one to a real test.

I was struck by Pygmalion's description of her tiff with her coach, which led to a marvellous tango--but that doesn't argue against the sexual nature of the dance, but in fact in its favor. It's largely oppositional, and may be used to look at some of those more uncomfortable aspects of sexuality we frequently try to ignore and overlook--conflict, even, perhaps violence.

Again, it's not that tango is *actually* sex or violence, but that it allows us to "talk" about such things in the language of dance. That would make sense given the ideas advanced about its origins in brothels in the 19th century--the places where the respectable could go to talk about some of things that "polite" society tended to suppress.

If any dances are ideological, they would have to be waltz or foxtrot, which take gender roles and naturalize them, rather than tango, which takes the same thing and theatricalizes it--the voice in the dance world that anticipates a Pirandello or a Brecht, rather than an Ibsen or a Chekhov.

For me, what that means is that when I dance tango, I play and pretend, like some of the other folks on this board have talked about. And I will dance it with someone who is willing to play with me. It may be exactly because of the emphasis on play that so few couples take the floor when a tango comes on in a social dance setting (at least where I go to social dance).

Well, that's something more than my two cents--but it's what this thread made me think of. I think dancing tango is something you do with a partner you really like and really trust, and someone you can play with.

Cheers to all,

Genesius

[pygmalion]

Jenn, you should definitely start that post on nude tango. It would be intriguing, especially if anyone had actually partaken in such an activity! :)

Oh, hang on, I just remembered I'm the moderator. Forget that idea.

Pssst: Maybe you could post a nude ballroom dancing thread in your forum? :) :)

LOL! I just saw this post. You are crazy! :lol:

[bordertangoman]

Hah!

I don't think nude tango would be as sexy as you seem to think.

What is sexy is not the explicit but the implicit, the tantalisingly hidden, the hinted at, the barely concealed, the simmering fire beneath the volcano, the tease, the sublimated passion!!

[DancePoet]

Bordertangoman: I was curious similarly to Pygmalion why you felt Susana's yes and no rules were naive? I wasn't sure what to make fully of what she was saying through her ideas. Yet it seemed that underlying her expression was a commonality needed through communication before action of any kind was taken beyond the sexiness of the dance. If she isn't saying this then perhaps it should be said.

(The following items are not intended for bordertangoman only.)

When reading the various articles I found several listed underneath the website where Susanna Miller's opinions are located. I found it interesting to read from Tom Stermitz's article, upfront on the same website, how there are various styles of Tango contained within the close embrace and milonguero catagories. I have found this to be true with American Tango. Initially I was taught a ballroom like hold, and then later in my education a hand placed on the lower to mid back hold which tends to draw the bodies closer and is more intimate. I have found the second more to my liking and much better for communication of the moves to be made, yet tend to ask regarding whether or not a partner is willing to use such a hold. It seems with Argentine Tango there would need to be a certain amount of respect shown, too, even though the nature of the dance is closer in the milonguero style. I enjoyed reading most of the articles by Susana Miller. Perhaps this is because I am relatively new to dance, and thus exploration is colored by a relative lack of knowledge and experience.

One tangent based on reading one article: self-awareness certainly is important when dancing whether tango is the style or not, and having an awareness through communication of one's partner would be of equal importance to me.

Also, I found the concept of nodding being customary very intriguing. Without being aware of this concept, I have found myself where I social dance, not necessarily asking a women through words for a dance. Sometimes body language does the trick whether or not the dance is a tango. My instructor seems not to appreciate this, and tends to correct me by mentioning in various ways that I should be asking her directly. Perhaps this is what is best for her, but other women have responded well to the use of body language particularly if they know me and are familiar with my style. I tend to use words more when I am less familiar with a partner.

Also, perhaps I need to go back and reread the articles to better understand GR's post. I am intrigued by GR's writing, and need to review further when I am not quite as tired.

[Genesius Redux]

Also, perhaps I need to go back and reread the articles to better understand GR's post. I am intrigued by GR's writing, but don't fully understand him yet.

That's because I was being pedantic about the use of terms like "ideology" in the article. Simple version--"ideology" as it is used most frequently in theoretical circles usually refers to a set of beliefs that are so deeply held that they seem almost unconscious assumptions. Since the tango places its representation of sexuality right on the surface, and goes over the top with it, the sexual play of the dance isn't what I would call ideological. Rather, I'd call it post-ideological.

The article, as I remember it, used the term "ideology" simply to mean a codified set of beliefs, practices, relations. But if we use ideology in that way, then it can mean any codified relations--those that are unconscious and held to be natural and absolute as well as those that are consciously constructed and thus recognized as contingent. I prefer a more restrictive and definable use of the term because it's more useful in terms of analysis.

Genesius

[bordertangoman]

Bordertangoman: I was curious similarly to Pygmalion why you felt Susana's yes and no rules were naive? I wasn't sure what to make fully of what she was saying through her ideas. Yet it seemed that underlying her expression was a commonality needed through communication before action of any kind was taken beyond the sexiness of the dance. If she isn't saying this then perhaps it should be said..

I went to re-view the article but it had gone. So I can't give you a clear answer to what I was thinking at the time.What I remember is that some of us seem to need clearly defined codes, but there is also the insider outsider - codes of conduct are unwritten but commonly known to a social group. I think the article had oversimplified things and maybe was invention for its own sake. I suspect the reality is more subtle and probably more varied.

What are the codes I dance by in the UK? ( I ask myself?)I won't force anyone into a close embrace- some people are embarrassed but this unfamiliar and intimate contact, others simply don't know how to dance this way. But I think this this confidence in offering the woman a choice leads to trust so she will dance in a close embrace if she is able.

I had a conversation with a friend who was having a hard time with some-one who was making sexual overtures towards her which she found disgusting and repulsive. I was attracted to her myself so I asked her what the difference was between the other chap and me as I obviously wasn't creating feelings of disgust in her. She said ' you are more open and up front - he is sleazy.' It wasn't a satisfactory reply and i think it may have had more to do with him not being attractive in her eyes. Is sleaze the way you behave or are you just sleazy if the person you have sexual intentions toward doesn't find you attractive?

Another experience is that a dance can feel sexual by small nuances; the feel of fresh perspiration on a woman's skin; a particular woman's scent; another woman's touch when she moves into the embrace. But I let these things pass when I am dancing, notice them but carry on dancing.

[DancePoet]

Well I suppose it would be helpful if I could read the same article BTM and GR have read. I'll go back to the articles on the website when I have a free moment in the next few days and see if I can find it. BTM says it is gone and that will be a bummer. I figured the one article that is up there now including Miller's yes and no (yin/yang like) questions was what was being referred to, but it sounds like I was mistaken. Oh well.

Some interesting ideas to ponder from BTM and GR anyway!

[squirrel]

:)I have never danced tango in my life... still, I saw it danced and (being a passionate and hot-tempered person myself) I can relate to it...
Sex and tango seem to be very much intertwined, as the dance itself and the many articles I've read suggested me... I have to confess I would have a big problem dancing Tango with someone I don't feel confortable to be near... I could dance it with my partner, with my boyfriend and some friends who are really close to me... or with a complete stranger (or not so stranger...) I would be attracted to... :oops: :oops: :roll:
Otherwise, the close touch and the intimacy is too much for me...
I am a Salsa dancer (Salsa is also sensual and sexual in many ways...) and this is how I reached the above conclusion... In Salsa, I don't particularly enjoy closeness unless I trust the person or am attracted to him... :oops: :oops:
As far as I am concerned, I would just looooove to learn this dance...

PS Pygmalion and Madam Samba, I don't think nude tango is a good idea... but nude waltz might... image the posture and the nudeness at the same place :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sagitta]

Well a friend jokingly told me that her friend, who is a good AT dancer, said that he likes AT because he can feel the woman's breasts. Then yesterday night someone mentioned that AT is as close to having sex while not having it...so I can see where this discussion is coming from. In beginner AT class there are some who don't like and won't do the close embrace. I have no problems with it, and for learning prefer it as in the more open positions I start to cheat and use my arms more. There definitely is a trust issue involved...

[jantango]

Another experience is that a dance can feel sexual by small nuances; the feel of fresh perspiration on a woman's skin; a particular woman's scent; another woman's touch when she moves into the embrace. But I let these things pass when I am dancing, notice them but carry on dancing.


I had a sensuous, not a sexual tango experience a few hours ago. I felt the warmth of his body as we danced. I heard his breathing. I felt his heartbeat. I smelled the scent of his cologne. I didn't let these things pass. They complemented and heightened the minutes we embraced one another, moving as one with the music. Our eyes met and no words were spoken. They weren't necessary.

[Heather2007]

What is sexy is not the explicit but the implicit, the tantalisingly hidden, the hinted at, the barely concealed, the simmering fire beneath the volcano, the tease, the sublimated passion!!

Yesssssss!!

Plus..

I see more items for temptation in the gym (Statue of David bodygods etc etc) than in any milonga known to me :rolleyes:)

[hbboogie1]

Bravo Jan
That's the connection we speak about. Someone posted a comment about only dancing close with friends or people she knows. The beauty of tango is to ask a perfect stranger to dance and enjoy those few minutes of intimacy without feeling any obligation and when the tanda ends a simple thank you is all that's needed. Are those minutes being sexual ? I'd say not sexual but intimate. How can holding a woman close to your body feeling her every movement and as Jan stated feeling the heartbeat the scents the warmth of the body not be sensual? I make it a point to dance with a certain lady whenever she's available and what a great feeling it is to dance with her. She encompasses all of the above and she's 78 years old and still very sexy. One of the misconceptions is men only want to be close to those ladies who are young, pretty or big breasted. For some men that's true and I believe those are the sleazy ones and women you know who they are.
A tanguero comes to a milonga to dance and is always looking for that connection be it with a friend or even better a stranger.
Nude tango ?...only in the bedroom.

[Ampster]

Okay, guys, clue me in...
Question: Is this real? Are milongas really the hotbed of steamy sexuality depicted in this article? And what do you do if you just want to dance?


Article aside, and reading from the initial posters from this thread, I'd like to try to dispell some misconception about AT.

1st question: Is this real? Are milongas really the hotbed of steamy sexuality depicted in this article?

Answer: (IMHE) No. Tango is NOT a hot bed of steamy sexuality. If you want to see steamy sexuality, go to a Salsa club, a Bachatta club, or any techno/dance club.

Despite the reputation that AT has due to its origins, it has evolved into something beautiful and elegant. For the benefit our Non-tango friends, despite the appearance and reputation, in order for you to dance AT, everyone needs a very high level of respect. Otherwise it turns creepy. In an AT venue, the creeps are readily identified, and not danced with.

2nd question: And what do you do if you just want to dance?

Answer: Most everyone who goes to an AT venue just wants to dance. Despite appearances, AT is not a meat market. There is more "hooking up" happening in Salsa clubs, Bachatta clubs, and Techno/dance clubs.

As a followup note... Tangueros and tangueras go to dance AT for the connection that is only inherent in AT. It's very hard to explain it non-AT dancers so forgive me if I'm not able to articulate it adequately.

It's the feeling of being absolutely connected to your partner. Not just on a phisical level, but also on an emotional, and almost spiritual level. You achieve a union of having one body with four legs that move in unison with the music on the dance floor. This is accentuated by varying rhythms brought about by the constantly changing rhythms of tango music.

It is intimate. It is sensual, but not quite sexual. Try not to confuse the two.

[taylor1990]

I think we can all agree that a Tango is deffinately a sexy dance, but as far as if Tango and sex are actually part of one another, I beg to differ. Each dance has a story to tell, this is especially obvious in tango. Tango is that cat-and-mouse chase of a man pursuing a woman. The dramatic movements and passionate air of the dance can look quite flirtatious, but it's not sex, (maybe foreplay haha). No, but seriously, just because this dance is more passionate doesn't mean that sex has to be a part of it. I'm not saying that the idea isn't appealing, but it is just another dance.

[Gssh]

Article aside, and reading from the initial posters from this thread, I'd like to try to dispell some misconception about AT.

1st question: Is this real? Are milongas really the hotbed of steamy sexuality depicted in this article?

Answer: (IMHE) No. Tango is NOT a hot bed of steamy sexuality. If you want to see steamy sexuality, go to a Salsa club, a Bachatta club, or any techno/dance club.

Despite the reputation that AT has due to its origins, it has evolved into something beautiful and elegant. For the benefit our Non-tango friends, despite the appearance and reputation, in order for you to dance AT, everyone needs a very high level of respect. Otherwise it turns creepy. In an AT venue, the creeps are readily identified, and not danced with.

I am not even sure if this has much to do with the origins, either - almost all dances were danced in the context of brothels/taxi dance halls - e.g. compare the citation wikipedia offers from the 1920's sociological study of the typical american dance hall (http://books.google.com/books?id=J-2WzYXRehQC) :






Cressy created nine categories to describe the types of patrons:

Racial or ethnic groups denied acceptance elsewhere.
Caucasian immigrants, frequently from a European country. Italians, Poles, Greeks, and Jews predominated.
Older men, approaching fifty, who want to rival younger men in courting young women. They were sometimes divorced, widowers, or deserters.
Married men whose marriages are suffering, seeking the clandestine adventures of the taxi-dance hall.
Lonely, isolated strangers who might be from a rural area or smaller city, and are new to the ways of the city.
The footloose globe trotter who has a very mobile lifestyle.
The slummer, men of higher incomes who wish to see how the other half lives.
Men who suffer from physical abnormalities or disabilities (http://www.dance-forums.com/wiki/Disability).
The fugitive, someone who might have a criminal background or suffers from local condemnation.

with the mythical early tango dancing environment. But somehow the charleston and swing are not remembered as the dances that grew up in the dancehalls and brothels.

And nobody cites byron when talking about the waltz:

...
Say—would you make those beauties quite so cheap?
Hot from the hands promiscuously applied,
Round the slight waist, or down the glowing side,
Where were the rapture then to clasp the form
From this lewd grasp and lawless contact warm?
At once love’s most endearing thought resign,
To press the hand so press’d by none but thine;
To gaze upon that eye which never met
Another’s ardent look without regret;
Approach the lip which all, without restraint,
Come near enough—if not to touch—to taint;
If such thou lovest—love her then no more,
Or give—like her—caresses to a score;
Her mind with these is gone, and with it go
The little left behind it to bestow.
....


Gssh

[Dave Bailey]

It is intimate. It is sensual, but not quite sexual. Try not to confuse the two.
So what's all this stuff about the Argentine men and tango clubs then? :confused:

[larrynla]

Tango is not sexy. Nor is any other dance, even the belly dance or strip tease or other dance explicitly designed to be sexy.

Only people are sexy. Or not.

Imagine a person you think the most repulsive in the world. Imagine them dressed "sexily." Imagine them doing the "sexy" tango moves with you. Are you going to be suddenly turned on and want to take them to bed? Unless you are very strange the answer is no.

Imagine a person you think the most attractive in the world. Imagine them dressed not at all attractively. Imagine them merely holding your gaze across the room for an instant longer than casually. Or giving you a very faint smile. Aren't you going to be jolted more awake, sit or stand straighter, feel as if you can't get enough air, have your heart speed up?

Nor is a particular dance move sexy. How one does it makes it sexy, or a turn-off or boring.

Imagine dancing with someone who does all the "sexy" dance moves in a bored, or careless, or cruel, or clumsy way. Aren't you going to be bored, or annoyed?

Imagine someone who does the simplest movements, but surely and gently, or a little more fiercely, than normal. Who says with their body language that you are special, interesting, exciting. Isn't that going to make you feel happier about them?

Today many if not most people think the waltz old-fashioned and boring. But done right, with the right person, it can be as seductive as any tango. Because it's not the dance but the dancer that makes a dance sexy.

Laer Carroll

[dchester]

Today many if not most people think the waltz old-fashioned and boring. But done right, with the right person, it can be as seductive as any tango. Because it's not the dance but the dancer that makes a dance sexy.
I guess I've never seen the waltz done right then.

[bjp22tango]

Quote from dchester:
Originally Posted by larrynla http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=702200#post702200)
Today many if not most people think the waltz old-fashioned and boring. But done right, with the right person, it can be as seductive as any tango. Because it's not the dance but the dancer that makes a dance sexy.

I guess I've never seen the waltz done right then



Perceptions and expectations go into a dance. Today's perceptions of Waltz is that it is dowdy, boring, archaic.

As a correlation, most people dance waltz as a box. It would be like 90% of the tangueros/tangueras going to a milonga and dancing walk to the cross. Everyone would say Tango is boring.

Take another perception. You are facing another person slightly offset so you can gaze unfocused over their shoulder or into their shoulder. You are lightly connected with one hand hold, his arm around her waist, her arm lightly pressing into his, a connection at the waist giving a closer feel of each others movement. A smooth lilting piece of music comes on and the couple glide around the floor, floating in a sensual cloud as the leader changes the timing dynamic along with changes in the music and the follow adds her interpretation of his leads. At the end of the music the couple comes out of their fog and thank each other for the dance.

Waltz is not ALWAYS boring.

[Captain Jep]

This old chestnut...

Im more interested why anyone would think salsa is a sexual dance,but I guess that's another story and another thread :rolleyes:

[Dave Bailey]

Imagine a person you think the most repulsive in the world. Imagine them dressed "sexily." Imagine them doing the "sexy" tango moves with you. Are you going to be suddenly turned on and want to take them to bed?
How well do they dance?

Unless you are very strange the answer is no.
Ooops. Errr, I meant to say, "No". Of course :D

Nor is a particular dance move sexy. How one does it makes it sexy, or a turn-off or boring.
Well, yeah. But I don't think it's quite that simple - some dance forms are more "sexy" (stupid term - let's use "intimate") than others.

For example, there's no conceivable world I can imagine, wherein someone does an intimate Morris dance.

And in fact you've agreed with this when you say:
Today many if not most people think the waltz old-fashioned and boring. But done right, with the right person, it can be as seductive as any tango.
So in other words, you have to work harder to make a waltz as intimate as a tango.

[Dave Bailey]

Im more interested why anyone would think salsa is a sexual dance
Simple: Salsa's more visual, the dancers are usually younger, and wear less clothes, and grind at the crotch. So it "looks" more "sexy".

Next question?

[larrynla]

… done right, with the right person, [a waltz] can be as seductive as any tango.

I guess I've never seen the waltz done right then.

No, you haven't. Or more likely what the people were doing was too subtle to be visible to watchers.

I had a sensuous, not a sexual tango experience a few hours ago. I felt the warmth of his body as we danced. I heard his breathing. I felt his heartbeat. I smelled the scent of his cologne. I didn't let these things pass. They complemented and heightened the minutes we embraced one another, moving as one with the music. Our eyes met and no words were spoken. They weren't necessary.

Janis said her experience was sensuous but not sexy. So I'm guessing that the man wasn't right for her. But he (and she) were doing all the right moves to make it sexy if she'd been dancing with the right person.

Im more interested why anyone would think salsa is a sexual dance …

Simple: Salsa's more visual, the dancers are usually younger, and wear less clothes, and grind at the crotch. So it "looks" more "sexy".


Dave is making a very perceptive distinction here, between what LOOKS sexy to others, but may not FEEL sexy to the ones dancing.

I was a salsa fan before I took up tango, and many times I danced with women who others might consider sexy, but I didn't - they weren't my type. However, I often liked them personally, and really enjoyed how well they danced, so a stranger watching us might have thought we were an item or wanted to be.

Laer Carroll

[Wolfgang]

Doesn't matter if it's a Milonga or any other form of dance venue, here's what I've found:
Straight men go dancing to meet straight women.
Gay men go dancing to meet gay men.
Gay women go dancing to meet gay women.
Straight women go dancing because they like to dance.

Which means that if you're a straight guy, a Milonga is about as steamy and sexy as visting McDonald's Playland.

[Captain Jep]

Simple: Salsa's more visual, the dancers are usually younger, and wear less clothes, and grind at the crotch. So it "looks" more "sexy".

Next question?

That simple?

"Salsa's more visual" - most folk dance LA style, which isnt crotch grinding.

And what happens? The girls try to make up for the lack of body connection by "stylising" the dance, and try to look sexy that way. Trouble is, most women havent a clue what to do. The last thing they make it look is especially sexy.

The guy meanwhile is too busy trying to work out where his arms and legs should go to worry about anything else.

The couple may dance on the beat but that's all they do. They dont express the music.

Contrast to tango, where the couple are glued to each other's chest, where expressing the music is everything. The movements are simple so both partners can focus on the connection.

"Usually younger and wear less clothes" - Maybe in London. Out here in the provinces you'd wish they wore more clothes not less. Anyway older woman have got more curves (yippee! :D ). All depends what you're after...

Sorry for hijacking. Carry on...

[bordertangoman]

Hmm i think sexual alchemy is a mystrious thing. I was dancing ceroc when my most newand highly attractive partner said did she give me a shock. I said no, oh she says, I've been giving shocks to a few leaders thise evening; but whatever she had she gave it to me and pretty much every other woman I danced with I gave a static shock to when i made first contact.:raisebro:

you either got it or you aint
( but sometimes you can borrow it)

[Dave Bailey]

most folk dance LA style, which isnt crotch grinding.
Depends where you go, really. At least, from what I remember, I've not been to salsa much recently. Or at all, in fact...

[dchester]

That simple?

"Salsa's more visual" - most folk dance LA style, which isnt crotch grinding.
I don't know anything about LA style, but salsa & tango can look pretty sexy when I've seen it, unlike the waltz.

[opendoor]

... , but salsa & tango can look pretty sexy when I've seen it, unlike the waltz.

? Tango got it from the waltz ! VW and Polka were the first dances in close embrace at all, and very very dirty that time !

[Captain Jep]

? Tango got it from the waltz ! VW and Polka were the first dances in close embrace at all, and very very dirty that time !

Yes and anything can look good (or if you must, "sexy") when the pros do it.

The question is how far down the skill gradient can you go and it still look good?? :cool:

[Captain Jep]

Hmm i think sexual alchemy is a mystrious thing. I was dancing ceroc when my most newand highly attractive partner said did she give me a shock. I said no, oh she says, I've been giving shocks to a few leaders thise evening; but whatever she had she gave it to me and pretty much every other woman I danced with I gave a static shock to when i made first contact.:raisebro:

you either got it or you aint
( but sometimes you can borrow it)

Reminds me of that Lindsay Lohan movie where she loses her "luck" and then has to go around and kiss a load of good looking guys to try and get it back. Hopefully you did the decent thing at the end of the evening then ... :p

[dchester]

Yes and anything can look good (or if you must, "sexy") when the pros do it.

The question is how far down the skill gradient can you go and it still look good?? :cool:
I've seen plenty of waltzes that I thought looked good, but none were sexy.

[Zoopsia59]

? Tango got it from the waltz ! VW and Polka were the first dances in close embrace at all, and very very dirty that time !

Wasn't Waltz also banned for a time for being too risque? As I recall, the issue was that women were always swooning (combination of turning and the lack of oxygen due to exerting oneself while corseted) Having women fainting in men's arms was considered pretty sexy.

[Zoopsia59]

Straight men go dancing to meet straight women.
Straight women go dancing because they like to dance.

Which means that if you're a straight guy, a Milonga is about as steamy and sexy as visting McDonald's Playland.

Bwa Ha ha!!!!

[larrynla]

I've seen plenty of waltzes that I thought looked good, but none were sexy.

You are judging sexiness from the outside, from a spectator's view.

A couple, once in an embrace, would judge sexiness more from how the other feels and smells, from subtle secret touches you cannot see. From how the other moves, firm but not violent leads, responsive following that makes it seem she reads your mind.

Laer Carroll

[opendoor]

Wasn't Waltz also banned for a time for being too risque? As I recall, the issue was that women were always swooning (combination of turning and the lack of oxygen due to exerting oneself while corseted) Having women fainting in men's arms was considered pretty sexy.

.. there must be a parallel thing with the Quebradas. But I´m not sure and no one could help me with this question :(
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=32365

[Wolfgang]

Back in the day when I still thought that actually meant anything, I would try to dance Tangos and Rumbas with the ladies I was attracted to, those are, in my opinion, the dance styles with the highest potential for being sexy, sultry and 'steamy'.

Waltz being the most 'romantic'.
(well, theoretically, see 'Back in the day' above...)

I never got the 'sexy' vibe from Salsa, it always seemed much more like a party dance to me, you know, woohoo, funny hats, confetti, paper trumpets 'n' stuff.

Samba, on the other hand, can be sexy if both know what they're doing ( good luck trying to find someone who does...) and both have the cardio to keep it up and be sexy at the same time.
Quite the challenge in Samba.

[dchester]

You are judging sexiness from the outside, from a spectator's view. We were talking about looks, so yes, it is from the spectator's point of view.

[bordertangoman]

argh; a glimpse of stocking was looked upon as something shocking, now heaven knows, anything goes.

[Zoopsia59]

We were talking about looks, so yes, it is from the spectator's point of view.

I agree. Deciding as a viewer that something looks sexy is just as real and legitimate as deciding as a participant that it FEELS sexy. Its just an opinion after all. Viewers can have opinions. Deciding that the participants are feeling aroused based on viewing may be off-base, but deciding that you think it looks (or doesn't look) sexy is valid.

Certainly a many cultures base a great deal on things LOOKING sexy, attractive, alluring, provocative, etc.... Humans are pretty visual creatures.

[jantango]

So what's all this stuff about the Argentine men and tango clubs then? :confused:

What have you heard? It's probably all true.

When a woman is interested in something more with a dance partner in the milonga, there are things she can do with her body to let him know. For example, putting her left hand on the back of his neck, whispering in his ear while they are dancing, or embracing him very firmly.

When a man is interested in something more with a woman (which is usually the case), he can test the waters if she hasn't responded verbally to his invitation.

1. While dancing, ask her if she would like to leave to have a coffee?
2. Nibble on her earlobe (when no one else will notice, of course).
3. Give her two squeezes with your embrace on the last two beats of the tango.

Improvise . . . it's all foreplay in the milonga.

[hbboogie1]

What have you heard? It's probably all true.

When a woman is interested in something more with a dance partner in the milonga, there are things she can do with her body to let him know. For example, putting her left hand on the back of his neck, whispering in his ear while they are dancing, or embracing him very firmly.

Improvise . . . it's all foreplay in the milonga.

Jan you forgot a very subtle one.
The woman sticks her tongue in his ear……….. jajajajaja

[Me]

Every time I see this topic bumped I find myself thinking, "Sex? Milongas? Sweeeet. Where do I sign up?"
:bouncy:

[Zoopsia59]

Every time I see this topic bumped I find myself thinking, "Sex? Milongas? Sweeeet. Where do I sign up?"
:bouncy:

Apparently you don't need to sign up... just stick your tongue in your partner's ear...;)

[Dave Bailey]

What have you heard? It's probably all true.
From here (http://unainquietantemirada.blogspot.com/2008/10/sex-in-city-not.html) I understand that:

“Hello I like you I'd like to know you better you can have my number I want you do you want to come back to my place” is not that unusual an opening gambit.

I like the instructions though... :)

[Me]

Apparently you don't need to sign up... just stick your tongue in your partner's ear...;)

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

[Steve Pastor]

Usually we read or hear that tango had its origin in the whorehouses. Nothing is more absurd and incorrect. First, there were no musicians working at brothels. Only at some places in the provinces there were locals that, under the appearance of dance halls, provided the double service and there not only tango was played, but also polkas, milongas, cifras, waltzes and any tune that would cheer the ambience. In Buenos Aires rent was very expensive, there was much demand, so that would have meant a waste of time and money.
The misunderstanding is owed to various reasons. Some dance halls or academias did not have a good reputation and the attendance was varied and, many times, "non sancta". Tough guys and easy living chicks used to go. But that does neither make those places whorehouses nor anything of the sort. Furthermore, people danced not only to tango there.
Also there were prestigious dance halls where people of a higher status used to go and where tango was the king of dances.
Those who adhere to this version are based on the lascivious titles (http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/tangos_prostibularios.asp) and the connotation implied in some early tangos. Another mistake. That same kind of titles had already been used for polkas and corridos and their lyrics, if any, were repeated, passing from one air to another.
By Ricardo García Blaya (http://www.todotango.com/english/colaboradores/colaborador.asp?id=1)
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/origenes_del_tango.asp

[Steve Pastor]

VW and Polka were the first dances in close embrace at all

Men and women dancing as couples, both holding one hand of their partner, and "embracing" each other, can be seen in illustrations from 15th century Germany.
<ref>Folk Dance of Europe. Nigel Allenby Jaffé. 1990. Folk Dance Enterprises. pages 148, 149. ISBN 0-946247-14-5</ref>

Danse de Paysans' (Peasant's Dance) by Théodore de Bry (1528-1598) shows a couple with a man lifting his partner off the ground, and the man pulling the woman towards him while holding her closely with both arms. His Danse de Seigneurs et Dames (Dance of the Lords and Ladies) featurs one Lord with his arms around the waist of his Lady.
<ref>Folk Dance of Europe. Nigel Allenby Jaffé. 1990. Folk Dance Enterprises. page 150. ISBN 0-946247-14-5</ref>

There are several references to a sliding or gliding dance,- a waltz, from the 16th century including the representations of the printer H.S. Beheim. The French philosopher Montaigne wrote of a dance he saw in 1580 in Augsburg, where the dancers held each other so closely that their faces touched. Kunz Haas, of approximately the same period wrote that, "Now they are dancing the godless, ''Weller'' or ''Spinner'', whatever they call it."
<ref>Nettl, Paul. Birth of the Waltz, in Dance Index vol 5, no. 9. 1946 New York: Dance Index-Ballet Caravan, Inc. page 211</ref>

Just making the point that "peasants" were doing it long before the Vienesse got it.

[Vagabond]

Just making the point that "peasants" were doing it long before the Vienesse got it.
You are absolutely right Steve.

Actually dancing only stopped in medieval times because it was "outlawed" by the catholic church of that time as was Argentine tango in 1912.

I often get the feeling that the emphasis lies on what dancing is today denying the fact that cavemen had the same urge for free movement as we have these days.

Though the dance in pre historical times often had the function of story telling (as one can still observe in various Aboriginal cultures today) there is more evidence from Abyssinian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman i.e. pictures on pottery, paintings etc. that will testify of the existence of dance, with female partners in days gone.

It is time that some people acknowledge the fact that dancing is not something we have invented last century, the art of dance is at least 60,000 years old

[Peaches]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
My thoughts exactly. I can clean my ears perfectly well with soap and water and q-tips, thankyouverymuch! :)

[hbboogie1]

Usually we read or hear that tango had its origin in the whorehouses. Nothing is more absurd and incorrect. First, there were no musicians working at brothels. Only at some places in the provinces there were locals that, under the appearance of dance halls, provided the double service and there not only tango was played, but also polkas, milongas, cifras, waltzes and any tune that would cheer the ambience. In Buenos Aires rent was very expensive, there was much demand, so that would have meant a waste of time and money.
The misunderstanding is owed to various reasons. Some dance halls or academias did not have a good reputation and the attendance was varied and, many times, "non sancta". Tough guys and easy living chicks used to go. But that does neither make those places whorehouses nor anything of the sort. Furthermore, people danced not only to tango there.
Also there were prestigious dance halls where people of a higher status used to go and where tango was the king of dances.
Those who adhere to this version are based on the lascivious titles (http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/tangos_prostibularios.asp) and the connotation implied in some early tangos. Another mistake. That same kind of titles had already been used for polkas and corridos and their lyrics, if any, were repeated, passing from one air to another.
By Ricardo García Blaya (http://www.todotango.com/english/colaboradores/colaborador.asp?id=1)
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/origenes_del_tango.asp

This article reminds me of the three biggest lies:

The checks in the mail

I love you

Tango didn’t start in the bordellos...jajajaja

[jantango]

Steve posted part of an important article by Blaya on the TodoTango site that all tango lovers should read in full. Every time one comes across a newspaper story about tango, the seedy beginnings of tango in the brothels is always the first paragraph. It's been written so many times that the world believes it is true.

I propose we change the name of this section of Dance Forum to "Tango Jokes" because that's the content of so many posts. Check the number of posts/views to the Tango Humor thread. We can always count on one from Hbboogie. I, for one, am tired of all the one-liners that don't contribute anything to the discussions.

[hbboogie1]

Steve posted part of an important article by Blaya on the TodoTango site that all tango lovers should read in full. Every time one comes across a newspaper story about tango, the seedy beginnings of tango in the brothels is always the first paragraph. It's been written so many times that the world believes it is true.

I propose we change the name of this section of Dance Forum to "Tango Jokes" because that's the content of so many posts. Check the number of posts/views to the Tango Humor thread. We can always count on one from Hbboogie. I, for one, am tired of all the one-liners that don't contribute anything to the discussions.


A joke is a very serious thing. Winston Churchill

Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious.
Peter Ustinov


Bordertangoman quote
, i spotted a 5p piece on the dance floor and my partner took umbrage and said
" you'd stop dancing with me to pick up FIVE PENCE!"
fortunatley she had a good sense of humour.

Dave Bailey quote
That leads in to the "Well, would you stop dancing with me for £1 million...?" question

Joe quote
Madam, we have already established what you are; we are now simply haggling over price."

Bordertangoman quote
"it does require a slight modification of the embrace in order to hold his book in my left hand whilst dancing

Zoopsia59 quote
That modification would be putting down your fag, right?
Or is the left hand holding the drink?

Captian Jep quote
What, you're NOT going for the cake ?!

Dave Bailey quote
Christ, by the time I get there, you greedy sods will have eaten it, I'm sure

Angel HI quote
. Boogie, That's Hysterical !


Bordertangoman quote
"An archeologist commented: " we have found remnants of leather footware attached to a tapering piece of bone. We believe this to be the first high-heel shoe."

Sorry Ampster nothing you say is very funny jajajajajajajajajajajaja

[hbboogie1]

Usually we read or hear that tango had its origin in the whorehouses. Nothing is more absurd and incorrect. First, there were no musicians working at brothels. Only at some places in the provinces there were locals that, under the appearance of dance halls, provided the double service and there not only tango was played, but also polkas, milongas, cifras, waltzes and any tune that would cheer the ambience. In Buenos Aires rent was very expensive, there was much demand, so that would have meant a waste of time and money.
The misunderstanding is owed to various reasons. Some dance halls or academias did not have a good reputation and the attendance was varied and, many times, "non sancta". Tough guys and easy living chicks used to go. But that does neither make those places whorehouses nor anything of the sort. Furthermore, people danced not only to tango there.
Also there were prestigious dance halls where people of a higher status used to go and where tango was the king of dances.
Those who adhere to this version are based on the lascivious titles (http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/tangos_prostibularios.asp) and the connotation implied in some early tangos. Another mistake. That same kind of titles had already been used for polkas and corridos and their lyrics, if any, were repeated, passing from one air to another.
By Ricardo García Blaya (http://www.todotango.com/english/colaboradores/colaborador.asp?id=1)
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/origenes_del_tango.asp


Christine Denniston is author of The Meaning of Tango, Dancing Tango - Unlocking the Mysteries and Secrets of the Tango - 1914

There is a cliché that Tango was born in the brothels of Buenos Aires. However, a more likely explanation is that the brothels were where people of the upper and middle classes first encountered it. Members of Argentina's literary classes - the people who are most likely to leave written evidence - did not mix socially with members of the lower, immigrant classes except in brothels.

Brothels were major places of entertainment for the working classes. The terrible shortage of women in Buenos Aires made prostitution a thriving industry. A shortage of women in the population also meant a shortage of women to work in the brothels. With many potential clients and few working women, the consequence was that there would be queues in the brothels as men waited for the women to become available.

In exactly the same way that a few years later Madams in New Orleans would employ artists like Jelly Roll Morton, at the cutting edge of the new music transforming Rag Time into Jazz, to entertain the men while they waited, brothel owners in Buenos Aires would employ Tango musicians. In both cities, these musicians were playing the music of the poor, and brothels were amongst the very few places in that section of society that could afford to employ professional musicians. So it is not surprising to see that the most important early musicians often spent some time working in brothels before becoming successful to a wider audience. The difference is that the chattering classes and opinion formers in the United States were likely to have heard Jazz for the first time in a nightclub in New York or Chicago rather than in New Orleans, while in Buenos Aires it was in the brothels that opinion formers first heard and saw it.

[Peaches]

I propose we change the name of this section of Dance Forum to "Tango Jokes" because that's the content of so many posts. Check the number of posts/views to the Tango Humor thread. We can always count on one from Hbboogie. I, for one, am tired of all the one-liners that don't contribute anything to the discussions.
God forbid that anyone have a little bit of light-hearted fun...

...jeez...

[Me]

I like the way our forum functions. It has been this way ever since I joined a few years ago. I wouldn't change it, ever. AT forums where people argue over what is "real" tango and disrespect one another are, frankly, a dime a dozen. I like the humor.

[Dave Bailey]

I propose we change the name of this section of Dance Forum to "Tango Jokes" because that's the content of so many posts. Check the number of posts/views to the Tango Humor thread. We can always count on one from Hbboogie.
And this is a bad thing because... :confused:

God knows we could all do with a bit more humour in our lives.

If I'm responsible for a large amount of the frivolity - and I probably am - then I'm very happy to be associated this way.

[dchester]

Do milongueros ever tell jokes, or if not, do they at least laugh at them?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[bordertangoman]

Do milongueros ever tell jokes, or if not, do they at least laugh at them?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Noh! remember that Quentin Tarantino came to a sticky end soon after he told a joke to some macho dudes in "Desperado". the Macho dudes didn't laugh as I remember.
:argue:

[samina]

no humour allowed on DF anymore... it's entirely bothersome. use irony and wit at your own risk...

[Ampster]

[/b]

Sorry Ampster nothing you say is very funny jajajajajajajajajajajaja

:uplaugh::banana::uplaugh::banana: Maybe not, but I'm a happy kinda guy!

[Joe]

Happiness is not allowed, either.

[Ampster]

Happiness is not allowed, either.

*Grumble, grumble* :evil: :eyebrow: :tongue:

[Joe]

Ah, now there we go. Grumbling and curmudgeonliness is highly approved of.

[Peaches]

So long as you're wearing a suit and not sweaty...

[bordertangoman]

Ah, now there we go. Grumbling and curmudgeonliness is highly approved of.

Quite right. I didnt get where I am today without Grumbling and being curmudgeonly

[Dave Bailey]

Quite right. I didnt get where I am today without Grumbling and being curmudgeonly
Damn right too.

"Groucho not gaucho" :)

[Ampster]

So long as you're wearing a suit and not sweaty...

I draw the line there! I'll be sweaty, but fragrant, and wear a Utilikilt (http://utilikilts.com/) to my next milonga.

... while still being *Grumble, grumble* :evil: :eyebrow: :tongue: and curmudgeonly. Does that work?

[Peaches]

Fragrant good, or fragrant bad??? :P

[dchester]

I draw the line there! I'll be sweaty, but fragrant, and wear a Utilikilt (http://utilikilts.com/) to my next milonga.

... while still being *Grumble, grumble* :evil: :eyebrow: :tongue: and curmudgeonly. Does that work?
That depends on what you're wearing underneath the kilt.

[Ampster]

Fragrant good, or fragrant bad??? :P

Good of course! :tongue:

That depends on what you're wearing underneath the kilt.

Dance capable boots! And, it sooo cooool... 8-)

[samina]

poor jantango has probably dug her own grave at this point in the thread just so she can roll over in it...:cool::p

[Zoopsia59]

I propose we change the name of this section of Dance Forum to "Tango Jokes" because that's the content of so many posts. Check the number of posts/views to the Tango Humor thread. We can always count on one from Hbboogie. I, for one, am tired of all the one-liners that don't contribute anything to the discussions.

There is an "ignore" feature I believe, that will hide the posts of any poster that you do not wish to read. I've found that works far better on most forums than expecting others to change their tone or the way they post. As you pointed out to me, how someone feels about posts is not the problem of the poster... its the problem of the reader. To feel otherwise when you are the reader would be a double standard.

[Zoopsia59]

Do milongueros ever tell jokes, or if not, do they at least laugh at them?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If a milonguero tells a joke in the milonga, does it make a sound if no one laughs?

Oh... sorry... guess that's a one-liner...
my bad

[hbboogie1]

If a milonguero tells a joke in the milonga, does it make a sound if no one laughs?

Oh... sorry... guess that's a one-liner...
my bad

Lets say you’re a milonguero been dancing over 50 years and your sitting at a milonga with 4 or 5 other milongueros and their dates. You all arrive around midnight and sit most of the night talking till five in the morning. Is it possible for a group of old friends to sit that long and converse without someone cracking a joke? I don’t think so.

What is the one thing that unites all Milongueros, regardless of religion, economic status, or ethnic background?
Deep down inside, they ALL believe that they are above-average dancers.
jajajaja