Pablo Veron

[Twirly]

Just came across this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw1By7xNSOo&mode=related&search=

What do you think?

[Me]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sm2IRMQTTI <----- His performance here is so elegant and connected. Truly a night and day difference.

[Twirly]

Yes, I don't get it. Isn't he considered the best dancer in the world by a lot of people? Is it really him in the first video? It's kind of awful.

[spectator]

the video was 8 years old...
maybe our view of what's good/bad/ what we want out of a performnce piece has changed a long with his skill set and style over the last decade? Isn't he relatively young as well (like mid 30s?)?

[bordertangoman]

I think he was better in the Tango lesson. In asassination tango his dancing appears a bit brutal at times. His partner is getting flung around a bit.

[Twirly]

I don't think eight years is that long really. The tango lesson is even older. In assassination tango he's dancing a more classic style, whereas the tango lesson is more tango nuevo, so guess that might be why it looks different.

I don't know, but my first thought was that his posture looks bad and he's throwing the lady around. She doesn't look great either. It all looks rushed and unmusical. Actually I even thought it might be a joke!

OK, enough complaining. Looking forward to going dancing tonight, been a long time!

[Steve Pastor]

"In asassination tango his dancing appears a bit brutal at times. His partner is getting flung around a bit."
I haven't watched this scene (Pablo Veron dances with Geraldine Rojas as and example of "tango for the 21st century") for quite a while, but had developed a definite opinion about it. Watching it again last night confirmed that opinion.

This time I watched only Geraldine Rojas. That was easy to do! I did not see her being flung around a bit. She never looked out of control. Her posture never changed. The movement was very energetic at times, but she met it and channeled it. This is what a woman does, or is supposed to do, in tango.
It is an impressive display of movement, both by Veron and Rojas.
What I eventually came to realize, though, was that there is practically no relationship between the movement and the music - "Una Emocion", except at the beginning, and at the end.
Veron did much better, musicality wise, in "The Tango Lesson". There must be a story here. Tight shooting schedule? Bad sound system? Something that was just thrown together? (This scene was filmed outside in front of a blank brick wall.)

The dancing in this scene was similar to that which Veron did in the high energy, "staged" scenes in "Lesson". I would describe it as nuevo / stage. In "Lesson" he dances a more traditional style in scenes that are set in milongas.

[jfm]

I read some where that the music was added wrong on the film (either the sound people added the track at the wrong speed/time etc or it was the wrong song- can't remember)... apparently if you look at the dvd they have asection where they show the same scene (the dancey bit at the end with the credits) with the music they were dancing to when they filmed it... all properly timed.

[samina]

i loved that second video, but in the first his elegance & control looked very apparent to me... it's just a different style, correct? milonga style, much faster? underneath the monotony of the fast milonga..... <yawn>.... he looked very graceful & nuanced to me... or at least capable of nuance if he were to slow down for something else.

am i off on that account?

[bordertangoman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sm2IRMQTTI

this is the link for the Ass ass ination tango clip.

but I don't have sound on/with my PC so I shall have to watch the dvd again.

[Twirly]

I read some where that the music was added wrong on the film (either the sound people added the track at the wrong speed/time etc or it was the wrong song- can't remember)... apparently if you look at the dvd they have asection where they show the same scene (the dancey bit at the end with the credits) with the music they were dancing to when they filmed it... all properly timed.

Oh dear, I never thought there was a problem with the music! What does this say about my own sense of musicality! I have to watch it again, haven't for a long time. I have the dvd, but never managed to find the scene anywhere else.

[Twirly]

i loved that second video, but in the first his elegance & control looked very apparent to me... it's just a different style, correct? milonga style, much faster? underneath the monotony of the fast milonga..... <yawn>.... he looked very graceful & nuanced to me... or at least capable of nuance if he were to slow down for something else.

am i off on that account?

Having thought about it, what I don't like about the first video is the posture and embrace, lack of connection, the way they often seem slightly off the beat, and I really don't like her legs, but maybe it's her style to dance like that.

I think I probably overreacted a bit though, maybe I was so surprised because I watched the tango lesson too many times as a beginner and saw Veron as a tango God.... ;)

[Steve Pastor]

Now I can't wait to check the dvd again!
I wouldn't be too concerned about not noticing a lack of connection with the music in this scene. The dancing is really impressive, don't you think? (I do!) How can I learn to do stuff like that? Really, I watched it over and over and over again. It was only then...
I think it was a replay of the "Boy look at all of those cool moves they do in tango! I want to do that, too." syndrome.
Then, when I started taking lessons, I would stand a while to get the feel of the music before leading anything. Everyone else seemed to be off to the races as soon as the first note sounded! The vast majority of women looked at me like, "So, when are you going to start?"
Pablo Veron is a tango god, I'd say. But not God. That makes him fallible, as were, I'd say, the Greek and Roman gods, but I can totally accept the "the music was dubbed in later" explanation.

[Steve Pastor]

If you have the "Assassinatin Tango" dvd look for the alernative ending. If I remember right (from last night) it's in the features menu, but you also have to press <more> to get to this one. It took me a while to find it. It's worth looking for, I'd say, since there, you can see and hear all of the nuance in the Rojas / Veron dance. I'd also say that much of what they do is more subtle than what I would do, but then, they are way better than me. (no surprise there)
This alternate ending shows Duvall and company watching the taped performance on their TV. This is followed by a scene in Frankie's where they practice the tango moves Duvall is trying to teach them.
The ending Duvall chose for the film is more dramatic. It is unfortunate, though, that the sound doesn't quite match up with the dancing.

[pascal]

Possibly the fault in on Victoria. See this one, also with Victoria. Pablo Veron looks ok for me but Victoria cuts the movement instead of emphasizing it. Imagine what it would be with Geraldine instead...
http://premiumwanadoo.com/mephisto-tango/videos-pabloveron10.html

[bordertangoman]

verrrry gooooood.

i didn't have sound but his technique is so sharp.

[Twirly]

Possibly the fault in on Victoria. See this one, also with Victoria. Pablo Veron looks ok for me but Victoria cuts the movement instead of emphasizing it. Imagine what it would be with Geraldine instead...
http://premiumwanadoo.com/mephisto-tango/videos-pabloveron10.html

Interesting to the see this second video with the same couple. Still don't like her way of dancing, but it's personal taste I suppose. He's super good, though sometimes a bit too fast for my liking. I know it's a performance, but I think with music like that you could emphasize the slower parts more. It doesn't have to look like an exercise in moves.

[Steve Pastor]

The word pastiche comes to mind, as does the word swango. (He goes, She goes, anyone?)
If you've seen seen "The Tango Lesson"...
Clothes still make (or unmake in this case) the man.
Are the rolled up jeans popular somewhere again? Looks about as impressive as the men who wear shorts when dancing tango. I found this to be quite distracting.

[Me]

I looked up some videos of Victoria dancing with another man and she looked much more centered. Looked up some other videos with Pablo and he looked better there as well. Maybe these two just didn't dance so well together?

[Tanguera]

Just came across this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw1By7xNSOo&mode=related&search=

What do you think?
I think they are dancing a kind of milonga which is uncommon nowadays and to which we are not accustomed. ;)

[FTL]

I came across an Argentine instructional video a few years ago wherein the instructor was saying that Milonga is suppose to look less refined than tango. His analogy is that Milonga is like going out in jeans and having beer with friends while tango is like dining in an upscale restaurant in elegant outfit. I cannot remember the name but his performance was just as rough as Veron's.

In Assassination Tango, I think there is an occasional disconnect between the dance and the music. They are also dancing on what looks like a concrete pavement which probably affects execution.

[bastet]

I think they are dancing a kind of milonga which is uncommon nowadays and to which we are not accustomed. ;)


I agree....

I had to go back and watch it again since I haven't looked at it since the post first started, but it reminded me of Orillero Style.

Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k53zVfkLjTQ

[Peaches]

I know of orillero style, but I can't pick anything out as a defining characteristic. Can you tell me more about it, or point me to references?

[bastet]

I know of orillero style, but I can't pick anything out as a defining characteristic. Can you tell me more about it, or point me to references?


Here is one person's take on it. I don't know that much abouyt Orillero style but the video I linked to comes from him and that is what I saw that I thought was similar...

http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2007/what_is_orillero.htm

and also I found a bit on Tejastango:

http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html#orillero

**extra note: based on the descriptions on Tejastango on Canyenge, and the fact that the couple in the video (not Pablo) was dancing to Los Tubatangos (I think) I'm wondering either the relation between Canyenge and Orillero or if it was Canyenge...I have no idea...they appear to have 2 slightly differnt opinions on it.

[Peaches]

Thanks, bastet.

It would be really nice if i could find someone who specializes in Canyenge and/or Orillero. All I know is that they're the much older styles of tango.

[Tanguera]

Canyengue is more a milonga style, Orillero is more a tango one. Canyengue is strictly connected to the African roots of Argentinian Tango.
Orillero refers to people who lived in the orillas (suburbs) of Rio de la Plata and then to their style of dancing. The dancing scene was not homogeneous: each zone had its own style of dancing, so you had the confiteria style, the orillero one, and so on.

[bastet]

Canyengue is more a milonga style, Orillero is more a tango one. Canyengue is strictly connected to the African roots of Argentinian Tango.
Orillero refers to people who lived in the orillas (suburbs) of Rio de la Plata and then to their style of dancing. The dancing scene was not homogeneous: each zone had its own style of dancing, so you had the confiteria style, the orillero one, and so on.

Thanks for the info. I appreciate the clarification.

Based on this, would you call the second video link I posted more of a Canyengue or was it still Orillero, like the person in the original blog link says? And how about Veron's video? Would you include that in with Orillero or Canyengue? One of the sites I listed says Canyengue is danced with bent legs, no crusada, and that Los Tubatangos play Canyengue style and all those elements were present in the second video. One of the remarks on the video was that it was actually Canyengue style.

[Tanguera]

The following video is canyengue:
nLeFVUTd0dI
Note the posture and the embrace: if you see something like that, you can be sure it's canyengue. ;)


This link? http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=k53zVfkLjTQ It seems to me they are mixing styles. Mostly canyengue.
I think the first video of Veron is canyengue.

[bastet]

Thanks for posting that! Those both sort fo fit in to what I imagine Canyengue to be. Would you happen to have any links to Orillero style videos to further clarify the differnce?

[Tanguera]

I looked for them on youtube, but I couldn't find anyting. I still search. I'll post here when I find something. :)

[Peaches]

OK. Yeah, that fits with what I've been taught as Canyengue. Doesn't look much like the Veron video, though, IMO. Huh. *shrug*

[bastet]

The following video is canyengue:
nLeFVUTd0dI
Note the posture and the embrace: if you see something like that, you can be sure it's canyengue. ;)


This link? http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=k53zVfkLjTQ It seems to me they are mixing styles. Mostly canyengue.
I think the first video of Veron is canyengue.

Just going back to look at it again. So my quesiton is- is the large offset in the embrace a characteristic in Canyengue? It seems all 3 videos have the strong offset (more or less) of the follower that seems to stay there, in addition to the posture and knee bending.

[Peaches]

My (very limited) understanding, is that Canyengue is characterized by the very offset, very open (approaching 90 degrees) angle of the embrace; the bent knees; the simple, very rhythmic steps; and the type of music it's danced to (very old). I believe the clasped hands being held lower is also typical.

[Twirly]

My (very limited) understanding, is that Canyengue is characterized by the very offset, very open (approaching 90 degrees) angle of the embrace; the bent knees; the simple, very rhythmic steps; and the type of music it's danced to (very old). I believe the clasped hands being held lower is also typical.

Yes, this is what I've heard too. And been forced to try by mad Argentinians occasionally...

[Peaches]

Yep. Now and again my teacher will get it in his head that I should work on Canyengue. Either that or he just wants to dance it now and again. It's a very odd feel, but fun, in a different sort of way.