Ballroom less creative than other dance forms?

[wooh]

So I was thinking about SYTYCD this week. And that amazing hummingbird/flower number. And just seeing all the different dance styles on one show. And while you definitely see some creativity in showcases and such, ballroom as a whole just seems so much less creative than other dance forms. And I started wondering why that is? My current theory is maybe it's because ballroom, unlike other dances, is so caught up in competition and doing things "right" while other dances are more about performance and expression. Maybe there's something more to it though.
Any thoughts/comments?

[samina]

one look at what max & yulia do with their bird showcase and any thought that ballroom could possibly be limited in creativity should go out the window... :)

[latingal]

I think wooh has a point though....ballroom is much more structured than some of the other dances styles. It has a syllabus/specific dances and is seen more as geared toward competing and/or social events, not as existing to be performed as an art form.

I'm not saying that it isn't an art form or can't be performed as such, it's just it's roots seem to be different from other dance styles. Ballroom history is rooted in social dance I believe....ballet, modern, jazz etc. are dances that were created to entertain and/or tell a story on a stage.

I am NOT dissing ballroom, I have done many dance styles, and I love dancing the challenge, beauty and art of ballroom....

Just my two cents...

[samina]

yah, i do agree... have been reflecting on the creative restriction in the standard style... it's pretty restrictive, you're very right...

i also remember a couple ballroom dancers (latin?) recently expressing their creativity with an AT routine, and the AT crowd here ripped them to shreds it seemed... so here were ballroom dancers trying to bring something more into their dancing and it wasn't welcomed.

i found that a little disheartening, actually. i loved what they did, for the non-syllabus creative breath of fresh air.

[latingal]

Many of the most creative ballroom dances I have seen bring in elements of other dance styles. It seems to be a delicate balance when doing something "creative" in ballroom. Too much out of the norm and you get negative reactions that it's not ballroom, too little out of the norm and it's just "regular" ballroom with no creativity.

However, two of the pieces that stick out for me in the past year have been Max &Yulia's bird dance and Vaidas & Jurga's modern dance (seen at Ohio) - both of the pieces seem to have just the right mix of other dance styles and traditional latin...and both of them seemed to have a theme or story other than just two people dancing.

[mamboqueen]

However, two of the pieces that stick out for me in the past year have been Max &Yulia's bird dance and Vaidas & Jurga's modern dance (seen at Ohio) - both of the pieces seem to have just the right mix of other dance styles and traditional latin...and both of them seemed to have a theme or story other than just two people dancing.

I agree. The showdances seem to allow for more "outside the box" creativity. Loved Mazem & Irina's, Delyan's and Boriana's as well. It seems (to me) to be more conducive to interpretation of the music. Of course, being stuck in syllabus hell gives me limited perspective. I can only base my thoughts on what I see in any given performance.

[spectator]

i also remember a couple ballroom dancers (latin?) recently expressing their creativity with an AT routine, and the AT crowd here ripped them to shreds it seemed... so here were ballroom dancers trying to bring something more into their dancing and it wasn't welcomed.

i found that a little disheartening, actually. i loved what they did, for the non-syllabus creative breath of fresh air.

to be fair we just pointed out that they couldn't call it AT because it was not AT it was a latin routine perhaps inspired by AT which is a nice idea as long as you aren't claiming that it is AT. Nothing wrong with adapting new ideas to the system that you already work in, that is how American Tango and Tango Vals were invented.

[waltzgirl]

Seems to me that one big difference is that ballroom is based on a recognized set of steps, recognized rhythms, and is generally danced within a set range of physical postures, while contemporary choreographers are free to invent movements from anything the human body can do. The creativity in ballroom comes from what you can do within the framework that exists for it. Sort of like the difference between writing a sonnet and free verse.

[Steve Pastor]

spectator and all:
"by Richard Powers, of Stanford University's Dance Division

"This same dynamic happened to the Argentine tango when it was transplanted to Paris around 1908-10 and found fertile soil there. Europeans and Americans discovered a dance called tango, decided they loved it, and kept it as a permanent addition to their collection of dances."

"With the exception of much-changed "International" (British) competition
ballroom tango (with the non-Argentine head-snaps), social dancers have
had little reason to reconfigure the version they adopted in 1910. So
they didn't change it much. Really."

"In Buenos and Montevideo, the tango changed, and changed again, like any
living tradition."

"Juan Carlos Copes told me that when he traveled to New York City dance
studios in 1959 to teach the Argentine tango as it had evolved in its
homeland over fifty years, most of the studios said, "No thank you, we
already *have* a dance called tango and we don't need a different one."
So he had to wait another 20 years before the northern hemisphere was
ready to accept the newer tango Argentino."

"Yes, I have detailed, illustrated descriptions of El Tango Argentino de
Salon written by Argentine dance instructors in Buenos Aires in 1914, and
it is (was) VERY similar to today's social ballroom tango, and not too
much like today's tango Argentino. Again because 'gringo' dancers have
had no reason to change it, and Argentines have."

Richard "

There's much more in this vein. If anyone is interested, let's go to the AT section, or PM me.

[anp73ga31]

Seems to me that one big difference is that ballroom is based on a recognized set of steps, recognized rhythms, and is generally danced within a set range of physical postures, while contemporary choreographers are free to invent movements from anything the human body can do. The creativity in ballroom comes from what you can do within the framework that exists for it. Sort of like the difference between writing a sonnet and free verse.

My feelings exactly. This post sums it up perfectly. :)

[anp73ga31]

spectator and all:
"by Richard Powers, of Stanford University's Dance Division

"This same dynamic happened to the Argentine tango when it was transplanted to Paris around 1908-10 and found fertile soil there. Europeans and Americans discovered a dance called tango, decided they loved it, and kept it as a permanent addition to their collection of dances."

"With the exception of much-changed "International" (British) competition
ballroom tango (with the non-Argentine head-snaps), social dancers have
had little reason to reconfigure the version they adopted in 1910. So
they didn't change it much. Really."

"In Buenos and Montevideo, the tango changed, and changed again, like any
living tradition."

"Juan Carlos Copes told me that when he traveled to New York City dance
studios in 1959 to teach the Argentine tango as it had evolved in its
homeland over fifty years, most of the studios said, "No thank you, we
already *have* a dance called tango and we don't need a different one."
So he had to wait another 20 years before the northern hemisphere was
ready to accept the newer tango Argentino."

"Yes, I have detailed, illustrated descriptions of El Tango Argentino de
Salon written by Argentine dance instructors in Buenos Aires in 1914, and
it is (was) VERY similar to today's social ballroom tango, and not too
much like today's tango Argentino. Again because 'gringo' dancers have
had no reason to change it, and Argentines have."

Richard "

There's much more in this vein. If anyone is interested, let's go to the AT section, or PM me.

Cool article...thanks for sharing it. :)

I much prefer a sharp int. tango, head snaps and all, but that is just me and what my eye likes to see. I know plenty of people who prefer AT. To each their own, I always say. Very cool to see how they relate to one another, though. :D

[danceronice]

I think ballroom seems less "creative", maybe, besides what waltzgirl said, because by it's nature, ballroom is about two people in a relationship loosely defined by the style of dance they're doing. You can't just design something full of tricks, and you can't put dancers on a stage and just have them make shapes together or do tricks a la contemporary (sorry, the more contemporary a la Mia on SYTYCD that I see, the less I like it. Looks like spastic flailing or ballet done by non-ballet dancers.) They have to relate to each other, and it has to be appropriate to the dance they're doing.

It definitely doesn't all look the same, though. I'm probably gonna get teased/picked on/spoken to about this, but here's my newbie observations--at my first competition, which was very small, I got to observe some really great dancers in relatively small heats, including three of our male pros (and one woman, who had basically no competition) dancing the same heats. Watching with my skating coaches, and thinking about it from the perspective of someone who makes up programs for skaters, what I saw was three almost-equally-good dancers bring three really different takes to their presentation that made them totally different to watch. One of them probably had the best balance between audience-directed and partner directed, and I would describe how he danced as coming out there and PRESENTING--"Here I am, here is my partner, you WILL watch us!" The next one is the master of playing to the crowd--he danced like he didn't care at all that the judges are there, but wants to have fun and put on a great show. The third turned that around and was very, very partner-oriented (obviously has to be during pro-am, true, especially with one he had to..well...all I can say is I was nervous and did not MEAN to need to be dragged around like a sack of potatoes and I'm very sorry about the sore arms and shoulders that probably caused. I just tried rewatching the video and couldn't make it through.) He was obviously paying attention to the woman he was dancing with and was focused on interacting with her. They were all doing the same dances, and they were all more or less on the same technical level, but they look totally different doing it and bring completely different character to the dances. Within the framework, yes (cha cha is still flirtly, paso is still powerful, etc.) but they put their own stamp on it.

You can MAKE ballroom creative. Just like if you're Torvill and Dean you can make a compulsory dance (not only are those the same steps in ice dance, they are done in exactly the same order to exactly the same music as every other couple and yes, it eventually drives judges and spectators around the bend) look like something entirely different than it is when other couples dance it. Creativity isn't necessarily about about doing stunts and new steps. There's creativity in presentation, too.

[SDsalsaguy]

Creativity isn't necessarily about about doing stunts and new steps. There's creativity in presenation, too.
Very, very well said. :notworth:

[danceronice]

If badly spelled.... :blush:

[SDsalsaguy]

If badly spelled.... :blush:
Don't worry, I'm not one to talk... :oops:

[SlowDancer]

You can't just design something full of tricks, and you can't put dancers on a stage and just have them make shapes together or do tricks a la contemporary (sorry, the more contemporary a la Mia on SYTYCD that I see, the less I like it. Looks like spastic flailing or ballet done by non-ballet dancers.)


Ditto. I've tried, but I just can't get into SYTYCD for that very reason.

[tj]

In addition to what's already been said, I also think it may be as simple as looking at a specific subset of an overall artform and seeing the constraints that define that subset. The reason why it doesn't seem as free is that you're looking at what defines the specific type.

e.g. If I decided to paint only using the color, yellow, then it'll seem like you have less possibilities than if you compare it to the entire spectrum of colors.

e.g. #2 - if I choose to only paint, then it'll seem more constrained than someone who chooses to paint, sculpt, sing, and dance. (would be kinda messy though!)

[tangotime]

Comparing dance genres, is akin to comparing paintings to sculpture .

Both forms, as in dance , speak to different audiences ( sometimes , the same ) Do they have similarities ? of course they do .

ALL dance , by its very nature, is artistic, and because we " borrow " from one genre and place it into another, as we have done, in just about most of the dance genres ,, do they then not become forever intrinsically entwined ? .

If you were to ak any performer in his chosen "field " , I am sure he/she , or they, would say they were most decidedly artistic !

[Joe]

For the majority of the "creative" dances out there, do you really think no one has ever done those movements before? Maybe for a few moves, sure. But the vast majority is old hat, just repackaged. Ballroom has just been around for so long that it's all been codified.

[latingal]

Might I suggest that some of the other dance styles have a bigger "vocabulary" to use to put together in different ways?

[tangotime]

As an aside-- Torvil and Dean, were trained by a former Latin Champ. in the U.K.( routines , not skating )

[tangotime]

Might I suggest that some of the other dance styles have a bigger "vocabulary" to use to put together in different ways?

If you were to see the # of listed variations in " Popular Variations " and then. add on syllabus, plus those that are not listed --- might be moot point

[latingal]

Hi tangotime! *LG waves*

Actually I was thinking of something like modern dance where absolutely anything goes vs. the "vocabulary" of the ballroom style. Any movement is considered part of the vocabulary of modern dance and can be used for choreography. In other words - there is NO syllabus OR variations at all in modern dance, everything is fair game.